Jesus Christ as Elder Brother [Mitt's ancestor originated Lds idea treating Jesus as mere brother]

BYU Studies ^ | 2006 | Corbin Volluz

[Colofornian]

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints often refer to Jesus Christ as their elder brother. This expression of endearment appears in sermons, lessons, and publications...The title is used enough that some might think that elder brother is one of the many titles attributed to Christ in the scriptures, but nowhere do the scriptures use this expression in reference to Jesus. Nor can the idea that Jesus is our elder brother be ascribed with certitude to the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith...

Beginning in 1844 we find the first instances in which the Church leaders use the phrase elder brother...to refer to Christ. These six recordings were all recorded contemporaneously. June 22, 1844, Orson Pratt...

The concept that Christ is the elder brother...does not appear to have been actually articulated and recorded until 1871 by Orson Pratt:

Now, who is Jesus? He is only our brother, but happens to be the firstborn...how is he the firstborn? Because he is the eldest--the first one born of the whole family of spirits and therefore is our elder brother.

...It is apparently Orson Pratt, then, who should be credited with the first attempt to...use the title elder brother as applied to Jesus. It was Orson Pratt who first recorded the concept that Jesus is "our Brother" shortly before the death of Joseph Smith, and Orson Pratt who first articulated that Jesus is all humankind's elder brother in the spirit...

Section 93, an 1833 revelation to Joseph Smith, allows implicitly the idea of brotherhood with Jesus: since human spirits are eternal, these spirits were with God in the beginning just as Jesus was.

SNIP

To those not familiar with the plan of salvation, hearing Jesus Christ called an elder brother might be misunderstood as a diminution of Christ's high status...

[Colofornian]

Let’s put the criminal charlatan playing President in the limelight, shall we?

Well, I'll affirm your motion...
I'm sure the site host would agree...
The only question then becomes YOU!!!?

It took only nano seconds to see that THE very last time you posted a new FR thread on Obama was almost 1,000 days ago -- Nov. 15, 2009:

Obama Condemned For Indifference To China Church Persecution

IF you truly wanted to keep Obama in the limelight -- then instead of charging in here and preaching it to me -- why don't your own fingers on your keyboard obey your charge?

Why are you hypocritically accusing me of somehow failing to keep the thread highlight on Obama, when your keyboard fingers have been pretty silent -- at least on thread production -- for almost 1,000 days now!

Seems to me like you've got a great basis for a vanity thread post there. (Why don't do you just post it ... vs. pointing fingers at me???)

[NCLaw441]

I am no Mormon. I have a different faith. And that is what it is: FAITH. Religion, by its very nature, is a faith-based thing. Unless a religion calls for denial or destruction of our Constitution and laws or a candidate says that he will govern based solely upon his religious beleifs, I come down on the side of religious freedom.

Of course I would prefer to have a candidate who believes exactly as I do in all matters: religion, politics, my favorite teams, etc. Who doesn’t? But my vote will go to the candidate who most closely conforms to my positions, especially as to domestic and foreign policy.

[Elsie]

Let’s put the criminal charlatan playing President in the limelight, shall we?

Ok; but we are ALSO going to...

... put heretical MORMONism playing CHRISTIAN in the SPOTlight, too!

[Elsie]

I have no great disagreement with the church of j.smith and that of mohammad...

CHRISTianity does!

---

 

 

Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

 

 

Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

 

 

1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

 

 

1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.

 

 

Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.

 

 

1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

 

 

1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

 

 

1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.

 

 

1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

 

 

2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

 

 

 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.

 

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

 

 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

 

 

Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

 

 

Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

 

 

Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

 

 

 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.

 

 

 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

 

 

2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

[Elsie]

If freedom of religion exists, it must exist for the Romney family as well.

It does; as well as FREEDOM of Speech.

That's why the world is going to learn about MORMONism: the Illegal Alien of the 'christian' world.

[Colofornian]

#1 The Mormon author of the study -- and BYU -- is the source of the following (not me): "...nowhere do the scriptures use this expression in reference to Jesus."

This was a quote. Additionally, that same author (Volluz) capsulized in his study toward the END of his piece: "The concept that Jesus is the elder brother of the human family is not expressly set forth in the standard works..."

(The "standard works" of Mormonism includes the Bible)

#2 The official Lds magazine Ensign included this graph: On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers….But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)
Secondary source: Is Jesus Christ the Spirit Brother of Satan?

Please note re: the bold-face references that the Lds church had an opportunity to pick which "firstborn" passages it would reference in trying to back this belief up...it chose Col. 1:15 & a D&C reference...but not Romans 8:29.

#3 So what's the reason that Mormons (BYU/Lds Church via Ensign; Corbin Volluz) all avoided tying in Romans 8 to "Elder Brother?"

Simply put..."adoption" doesn't fit into the Mormon scheme of firsthand spirit child-bearing. Note that I indeed covered the "adoption" angle in the second post (see #5...because indeed the context for Romans 8 is adoption...) Please see the rest of the second post re: the way Mormons use "Elder Brother" to dilute the uniqueness of Christ.

[Elsie]

Obama catering to Islam.

MORMONism FACTS...

---

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

• Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

• Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

• Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

• As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

• Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

• Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

• Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

• Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

• Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

• Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.

---

[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.

[Colofornian]

Religion, by its very nature, is a faith-based thing. Unless a religion calls for denial or destruction of our Constitution and laws or a candidate says that he will govern based solely upon his religious beleifs, I come down on the side of religious freedom.

Between your post & the one by mom4melody (see my response post #13), who's calling for any curtailment of religious freedom?

The same Qs I asked of mom4melody in post #13, apply to you...Are you consistent? Or hypocritical?

[Elsie]

Let’s not mix up what is Caesar’s and what is God’s!

Let’s not mix up what is GOD’s eternal TRUTH and what some conman from the 1830's claimed!

Let's not deny GOD and vote for a man who is either a DECEIVED Mormon or a DECEIVING one.

One whose very life is a witness to FALSEHOOD and DECEPTION.

[Elsie]

Obviously if he is the "firstborn," and we are the "many brethren," then he is our eldest brother.

Sorry; but your logic is wrong.

When I was in the service, I was an American AMONG many brethen: the Thai citizens of Southeast Asia.

---

Simple parsing.

[Elsie]

...I come down on the side of religious freedom.

So; who don't?

---

But my vote will go to the candidate who most closely conforms to my positions, especially as to domestic and foreign policy.

And mine (or lack of it) will 'go' to the one who does NOT believe in some damnable heresy that NO CHRISTIAN religion accepts as authentic.

[Elsie]

2 John 1:10
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

I will add:

Or make him your LEADER!!!

[chargers fan]

The Lord can use leaders who don’t know him for good as well. He used the ruler of Persia to free the Israelites from Babalyonian captivity.

[GLDNGUN]

And if your ancestor was a slave owner...does that make you a slave owner? I’m missing the point of tying this belief to an ancestor of Mitt Romney.

[NCLaw441]

The same Qs I asked of mom4melody in post #13, apply to you...Are you consistent? Or hypocritical?
***

I don’t object to Obama on religious grounds (his religion is hard to identify), I am being consistent.

[Colofornian]

To re emphasize:

No...Jesus is NOT the elder brother of all people on earth...per john 8 that is unorthodox.
Yes thru adoption we become his children, but that is NOT the way Mormons exegete this...otherwise they would quote rom 8 29 vs avoiding it...
What I mean by lds "reducing" Jesus to "elder brother" status can be found in two parallel illustrations...
* people call Jesus a good teacher...orthodox wise jesus was/is rabboni...a master teacher...but Jesus transcends being only a good teacher...somebody can state a technically true attribute and yet still be reductionistic...
* likewise a man approached Jesus in the gospels with the greeting "good teacher"...Jesus responded "why do you call me good?" Jesus didn't question His own goodness there...what the man said was technically true...yet Jesus chose to address the faulty worldview presumption baggage

[Bidimus1]

note* I did place a edit i mis-edited a line and corrected in about 30 seconds.

the I do have great disagreement with...

[Colofornian]

If your ancestor was a slave owner...does that make you a slave owner?"

Obviously not. Yet I myself am a descendent of a Mormon polygamist...given the false seeds that have been poured into the world by my family's name, am I 100% off the hook re pouring some true seeds into the world...in part as a counterbalance?...If that is true of my family's Mormonism, why not Mitt's family Mormonism?

As for tying this in to his ancestry...mitt has said he will not depart from the faith of his fathers...he said that december of 07

[fishtank]

The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator,

that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.

They deny Jesus created the angels and the universe out of nothing.

[Colofornian]

I don't object to Obama on religious grounds...I am being consistent

thanx for responding...you missed my point...perhaps I wasn't clear enough...my comment wasn't aimed at your commentary...or lack of it...aimed directly at obama...it was rather, "where have you been in failing to defend obama and his religious beliefs when they have come under fire by freepers?" You came in here using a "religious freedom" defense of romney...have you consistlently offered the same "religious freedom" defense on behalf of obama? IF NOT, WHY NOT?