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As Baptists Prepare to Meet, Calvinism Debate Shifts to Heresy Accusation
Christianity Today ^ | 6-18-2012 | Weston Gentry

Posted on 06/21/2012 8:24:00 AM PDT by fishtank

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To: marshmallow

Thank you! I’ve noted in a similar thread that all the predestinationalists seem to proceed from the first principle of their own predestined salvation.


41 posted on 06/21/2012 11:33:04 AM PDT by Brass Lamp
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To: ShadowAce

“And yet Christ Himself explicitly taught that men must make the choice.”

It is true, ShadowAce. God elects; yet it does not absolve us of the responsibility of choosing.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” -Romans 8:29-30

yet:

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” - 2nd Peter 3:9

and what shall we say to these truths?

“As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” Romans 9:13-14

I can’t deny either the election of God, nor the free will of man. I confess all of Scripture to be true, whether I can perfectly understand it or not.


42 posted on 06/21/2012 11:33:42 AM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Yashcheritsiy
but am a Biblicist instead.

A clever but empty phrase. Unfortunately, typical of modern evangelicalism. Muscular doctrine is divisive, after all.
43 posted on 06/21/2012 11:34:02 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: Persevero
I deny that God is arbitrary...

Then explain the objective qualifications to be saved that does not include any arbitrariness.

44 posted on 06/21/2012 11:36:52 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Persevero
God elects; yet it does not absolve us of the responsibility of choosing.

So, if God elects me to Hell, and I choose to follow Him, I still go to Hell?

Sounds pretty arbitrary to me. I would never follow a god like that. Luckily, my God is much more powerful than that.

45 posted on 06/21/2012 11:42:42 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce

“So, if God elects me to Hell, and I choose to follow Him, I still go to Hell?

Sounds pretty arbitrary to me. I would never follow a god like that. Luckily, my God is much more powerful than that. “

The Bible does not say God elects anyone to hell. Like I said, it’s implied by the idea of God electing those who saves. But “God elects people to hell” is not stated. Nor do I state that.

The Bible does not say God is arbitrary, either. That is something that we (as sinful men) assume. God is never portrayed as arbitrary.

As for God being powerful, of course, He does as He pleases. We don’t dictate to him, nor must He conform to our idea of righteousness.

I think we all just need to follow the God of the Bible, and not draw further conclusions than are warranted.


46 posted on 06/21/2012 11:57:19 AM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: ShadowAce

“explain the objective qualifications to be saved that does not include any arbitrariness. “

I’d have to say that the Bible explains it better than I.

“As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,”

-Romans 9:13-23


47 posted on 06/21/2012 12:00:37 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Persevero
...and not draw further conclusions than are warranted.

And yet you take a couple instances of individual actions and apply them to all mankind.

The parable of the Prodigal Son and His interaction with the rich young ruler clearly indicate that we are the ones responsible for where we end up. There is no thing as a general "election."

48 posted on 06/21/2012 12:01:04 PM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Persevero
All of those examples (in the context that you are using them) are the epitome of arbitrariness.

You neglect the entire "Repent and be baptized" command.

The whole "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" argument is taken WAY out of context and does not mean what you think it means.

49 posted on 06/21/2012 12:06:40 PM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Persevero
At the same time I affirm that He elects his people to salvation.

But does He, according to the Calvinist conception, will that all his people be saved?

50 posted on 06/21/2012 12:09:54 PM PDT by Brass Lamp
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To: esquirette
it expanded my horizons and comfort level tremendously when I accepted that God is sovereign in all things - especially in the area of salvation, thus making it impossible for me to back out

It's always comfortable to know you have no responsibility.

51 posted on 06/21/2012 12:13:34 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: polkajello
"How many posts till someone plays the Servetus Card???"

I'll take a stab at it:

"Build a man a fire you warm him for a day; light a man on fire you warm him for the rest of his life." - John Calvin

52 posted on 06/21/2012 12:15:11 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Buddygirl
God forces it on us, then it is not a gift

Don't you remember the Angel of the Lord fighting with Jacob? Jacob was pretty much being shown Who was God. God was adamant that Jacob do His will so God's plan for the world (Christ) could come to pass.

Then there's the example of Paul being knocked down and struck blind by God. I would call that irresistable grace.

Did Moses choose God or did God reveal Himself in the burning bush? Moses didn't seem too thrilled to be chosen...but God insisted.

Salvation is purely a gift...we in no way earn it (though sometimes God's grace is so gently given we think we choose Him).

53 posted on 06/21/2012 12:24:01 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Yashcheritsiy

Your post illustrates a key point.

We are saved by grace through faith.

In Calvinism, these are conditional upon election, so we are saved by election.

This is quite different.


54 posted on 06/21/2012 12:24:54 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Persevero; ShadowAce

“we are described as totally dead, totally helpless, totally lost”

Actually, we are taught that we are sick and in need of a physician, that we are lost and need someone to show us the way, that we are captives who need to be set free.

“He stood up to read the scriptures and the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. He opened the book and found the place where these words are written—‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the Gospel to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord’.

20-21 Then he shut the book, handed it back to the attendant and resumed his seat. Every eye in the synagogue was fixed upon him and he began to tell them, “This very day this scripture has been fulfilled, while you were listening to it!”” - Luke 4

The Prodigal Son was described as dead by his father, and yet we read:

“Then he continued, “Once there was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the property that will come to me.’ So he divided up his property between the two of them. Before very long, the younger son collected all his belongings and went off to a foreign land, where he squandered his wealth in the wildest extravagance. And when he had run through all his money, a terrible famine arose in that country, and he began to feel the pinch. Then he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country who sent him out into the fields to feed the pigs. He got to the point of longing to stuff himself with the food the pigs were eating and not a soul gave him anything. Then he came to his senses and cried aloud, ‘Why, dozens of my father’s hired men have got more food than they can eat and here I am dying of hunger! I will get up and go back to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have done wrong in the sight of Heaven and in your eyes. I don’t deserve to be called your son any more. Please take me on as one of your hired men.”’

20-24 So he got up and went to his father. But while he was still some distance off, his father saw him and his heart went out to him, and he ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. But his son said, ‘Father, I have done wrong in the sight of Heaven and in your eyes. I don’t deserve to be called your son any more ....’ ‘Hurry!’ called out his father to the servants, ‘fetch the best clothes and put them on him! Put a ring on his finger and shoes on his feet, and get that calf we’ve fattened and kill it, and we will have a feast and a celebration! For this is my son—I thought he was dead, and he’s alive again. I thought I had lost him, and he’s found!’” - Luke 15

“Then he came to his senses and cried aloud...”

Jesus commands us to repent. He didn’t say, “If you are chosen, I will make you repent. If you are not, I will not permit you to repent”.

Calvinism is contrary to the Gospel.


55 posted on 06/21/2012 12:45:49 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (A conservative can't please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff)
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To: D-fendr

Wrong. In Calvinism the elect are not saved until the Holy Spirit gives the gift of faith.

Misrepresentations of Calvinism forfeit popcorn rights.


56 posted on 06/21/2012 12:48:31 PM PDT by polkajello (Romney: The Lesser of Two Weasels)
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To: ShadowAce
So, if God elects me to Hell, and I choose to follow Him, I still go to Hell?

God elects no one to Hell. We all were headed there of our own accord. (We all choose evil in ourselves).

However, God has rescued those who will be in Heaven. He snatched us from the fire. We didn't do it on our own and that's why we say "we're saved" (passive tense).

57 posted on 06/21/2012 12:49:01 PM PDT by what's up
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To: fishtank

The statement being debated starts:

Article One: The Gospel

We affirm that the Gospel is the good news that God has made a way of salvation through the life, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for any person. This is in keeping with God’s desire for every person to be saved.

We deny that only a select few are capable of responding to the Gospel while the rest are predestined to an eternity in hell.

Genesis 3:15; Psalm 2:1-12; Ezekiel 18:23, 32; Luke 19.10; Luke 24:45-49; John 1:1-18, 3:16; Romans 1:1-6, 5:8; 8:34; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21; Galatians 4:4-7; Colossians 1:21-23; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-16; 2 Peter 3:9

Article Two: The Sinfulness of Man

We affirm that, because of the fall of Adam, every person inherits a nature and environment inclined toward sin and that every person who is capable of moral action will sin. Each person’s sin alone brings the wrath of a holy God, broken fellowship with Him, ever-worsening selfishness and destructiveness, death, and condemnation to an eternity in hell.

We deny that Adam’s sin resulted in the incapacitation of any person’s free will or rendered any person guilty before he has personally sinned. While no sinner is remotely capable of achieving salvation through his own effort, we deny that any sinner is saved apart from a free response to the Holy Spirit’s drawing through the Gospel.

Genesis 3:15-24; 6:5; Deuteronomy 1:39; Isaiah 6:5, 7:15-16;53:6; Jeremiah 17:5,9, 31:29-30; Ezekiel 18:19-20; Romans 1:18-32; 3:9-18, 5:12, 6:23; 7:9; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 Corinthians 1:18-25; 6:9-10;15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Hebrews 9:27-28; Revelation 20:11-15

Article Three: The Atonement of Christ

We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the sins of every person.

We deny that this atonement results in salvation without a person’s free response of repentance and faith. We deny that God imposes or withholds this atonement without respect to an act of the person’s free will. We deny that Christ died only for the sins of those who will be saved.

Psalm 22:1-31; Isaiah 53:1-12; John 12:32, 14:6; Acts 10:39-43; Acts 16:30-32; Romans 3:21-26; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 3:10-14; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-20; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; Hebrews 9:12-15, 24-28; 10:1-18; I John 1:7; 2:2

Article Four: The Grace of God

We affirm that grace is God’s generous decision to provide salvation for any person by taking all of the initiative in providing atonement, in freely offering the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit, and in uniting the believer to Christ through the Holy Spirit by faith.

We deny that grace negates the necessity of a free response of faith or that it cannot be resisted. We deny that the response of faith is in any way a meritorious work that earns salvation.

Ezra 9:8; Proverbs 3:34; Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 19:16-30, 23:37; Luke 10:1-12; Acts 15:11; 20:24; Romans 3:24, 27-28; 5:6, 8, 15-21; Galatians 1:6; 2:21; 5; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 3:2-9; Colossians 2:13-17; Hebrews 4:16; 9:28; 1 John 4:19

Article Five: The Regeneration of the Sinner

We affirm that any person who responds to the Gospel with repentance and faith is born again through the power of the Holy Spirit. He is a new creation in Christ and enters, at the moment he believes, into eternal life.

We deny that any person is regenerated prior to or apart from hearing and responding to the Gospel.

Luke 15:24; John 3:3; 7:37-39; 10:10; 16:7-14; Acts 2:37-39; Romans 6:4-11; 10:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20; 6:15; Colossians 2:13; 1 Peter 3:18

http://sbctoday.com/2012/05/30/an-introduction-to-%E2%80%9Ca-statement-of-the-traditional-southern-baptist-understanding-of-god%E2%80%99s-plan-of-salvation%E2%80%9D/


58 posted on 06/21/2012 12:50:36 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (A conservative can't please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff)
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To: polkajello; D-fendr
In Calvinism the elect are not saved until the Holy Spirit gives the gift of faith.

Uh huh. And this gift of faith is given to everyone? Or only the elect?

If only the elect, then the election comes first, which is just what D-fendr said. We are saved by everything that flows from the election.

59 posted on 06/21/2012 12:53:46 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: what's up
God elects no one to Hell.

So you think it is possible to separate the wheat from the chaff without being responsible for the pile of chaff?

60 posted on 06/21/2012 12:56:02 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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