Posted on 06/19/2012 10:07:14 AM PDT by Colofornian
You're not saying that Jewish candidates -- upon praying/appealing to God for relief, help, aid, etc... -- are calling upon a false god, are you?
“Sorry, but folks who say “Obama = Romney” lose me right there. It’s just preposterous.”
This is an election cycle, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
I see no indication that Romney is running for president on such a religious agenda. [D-fendr]
Doesn't really matter what Romney's own personal agenda might be; the "prophet" in Salt Lake City trumps it.
...perhaps, Romney needs to make the LDS equivalent of Kennedy’s Houston speech to the Protestant ministers [”..no Catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be Catholic how to act..”)]. [D-fendr]
Raising Cain, you're on the right track. For those who want to compare the relationship of the Mormon "prophet" to a Mormon POTUS to that of a Pope to a Catholic POTUS...would need to argue -- from the track record -- that there exists a propensity, desire and inclination for popes to overreach politically.
Notice these posters never do that...they toss out what they think might be comparable; but 'tis an argument from total silence.
Me? I don't argue from silence. I let the Mormon "prophets" and general authorities do the talking...I even just added a 2001 Lds church published quote from a 19th century "prophet"...so you know when the Lds church is highlighting a quote in 2001...it's not just yesteryear doctrine. And NOTE: Most of the quotes below were published by official LDS sources in Mitt Romney's adult lifetime...meaning THIS is the cultural water he has been swimming in as an Lds "bishop"
| Lds Leader | Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title) | Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words) | |
| John Taylor | Lds 'Prophet' #3 | “The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto…[so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours…and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862) | |
| John Taylor | Lds 'Prophet' #3 | The LDS Church -- in 2001 -- thought it well to pull this quote from John Taylor to emphasize it: "The Lord...is desirous to show us how to save ourselves, how to bless ourselves temporally and spiritually, intellectually, morally, physically, POLITICALLY..." (Lds Church owned Deseret News, Nov. 19, 1865, p. 2, as quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor (2001, p. 178). Also from p. 178: "The idea of strictly religious feelings with us, and nothing else, is out of the question...Our religion is more comprehensive than that of the world...it embraces all the interests of humanity in every conceivable phrase..." (Original source: The Gospel Kingdom, 1943, p. 168) | |
| Orson Hyde | President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875) | “What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53) | |
| Heber J. Grant | Lds 'Prophet' #7 | "Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984) | |
| Harold B. Lee | Lds 'Prophet' #11 | ...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989) | |
| Spencer Kimball | Lds 'Prophet' #12 | "President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983) | |
| What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father? | Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets') | "Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984) | |
| Ezra Taft Benson | Lds 'Prophet' #13 | Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: “…remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet…” (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #5 | 5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney?) | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #9 | 9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt?) | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #10 | 10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt?) | |
| B.H. Roberts | LDS Historian and Seventy. Note: Roberts was an elected Democratic Congressman from Utah in 1898 -- but was NEVER seated by Congress because of grass roots uproar vs. Roberts, who took a THIRD simultaneous wife in the early 1890s. Grass roots America collected 7 MILLION signatures on 28 banners and presented them to Congress...in pre-mass media 1800s! | “[T]he kingdom of God... is to be a POLITICAL INSTITUTION THAT SHALL HOLD SWAY OVER ALL THE EARTH; TO WHICH ALL OTHER GOVERNMENTS WILL BE SUBORDINATE AND BY WHICH THEY WILL BE DOMINATED.” The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo, 1900, p. 180 | |
| Mitt Romney as POTUS??? | Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do? | The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."] |
Not the same interpretation of the Old Testament for sure, not the same revelation of God - else there would be no need for the New Testament. Both Christian and Jew await the (return of) messiah, but for Christians Jesus Christ is the Messiah, true God from true God. This is true revelation for Christians, but blasphemy for Jews reading the Old Testament, as we see most dramatically in the events as told in St. John's Gospel.
"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father."As you noted from the Gospel of John, this is what makes us two different religions and two quite different views of a "saving relationship with the true God." St. Paul was on the road to Damascus in large measure due to this difference.
When he set out he did not think he was persecuting the true God. Afterward...
Again, I think it beyond obvious that Jew and Christian have a quite different belief on what "true God" is and means.
And the pope trumps Newt and Santorum..
We've been here before.
Does Mitt need to give a JFK speech? Would that matter to you?
Yes, the ultimate in hopelessness: for Macbeth all life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing.
So why bother?
Well, I don't agree with Macbeth here; rather, I am with Andrew Breitbart on the significance of this election.
Thanks for your reply.
“Yes, the ultimate in hopelessness: for Macbeth all life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing.
So why bother?
Well, I don’t agree with Macbeth here; rather, I am with Andrew Breitbart on the significance of this election.
Thanks for your reply.”
I’m talking about the election, not your or anyone elses life. If you want to have blind faith in the god-child to end all the practices that he himself has supported and even continues to support, despite all the evidence to the contrary, go right ahead.
"Overreach" according to whom and going how far back?. I'm tempted to link to google searches on pope or rome "overreach" politically. :) Certainly, there are many who would say the Catholic Church has overreached politically - up to today.
But, no, your framing here is in error.
The comparison in my point is those who *believe* that a politician will subjugate his political decisions to the leadership of his church - the LDS in one case; the Latin Church in the other.
It's easy to show that some Protestant/non-Catholic believed this in regard to Kennedy. You can also research the same for Al Smith.
And you on this forum illustrate the corollary belief concerning Romney and the LDS leadership/church.
Both Smith and Kennedy faced vocal opposition from those in other churches who believed they would subjugate political decisions to their church leaders. They both delivered speeches to deny it.
My question is if Romney did the same, would that assuage your concern?
There is one certainty: it takes even more faith, or something else, to believe President Obama will.
thanks for your reply.
I would just add that it is likely that Mitt has himself had his "Calling and Election" made sure. Elite mormons are invited to undergo a special ritual, the believed result is that the chosen mormon is actually guaranteed to reach the highest level of the mormon celestial kingdom....before death.
How special is that? Do you ever wonder at Mitt's attitude of superiority? Well, he KNOWS he will "pass by Joseph Smith" at the judgment and sit at the right hand of God himself!
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SECOND ANOINTING or SECOND ENDOWMENT
This ordinance is so rare that many good Mormons do not even know that it exists. It is done only by invitation from the president of the church, to one married couple at a time. It is performed in the Holy of Holies room of the temple by one of the apostles of the church. Those who receive this ordinance are guaranteed of their salvation and exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. The man is anointed as "priest and king" (the wife is anointed "priestess and queen") and their "calling and election [to exaltation] is made sure." Part of the ceremony is performed by the couple in private in their own home, following instructions given during the temple ceremony, and includes the ceremonial washing of feet. One implication of the ceremony is that the recipients will have a personal visitation of Christ. In earlier days many devout Mormons received this ordinance, but since the 1920s it is extremely rare, and probably only given to those in high leadership positions in the church.
No doubts; I go back to JFK. Had no doubts about the Pope issuing edicts for the USA - and he didn’t. No doubts about any Mormon influence through Romney. I don’t believe in the Mormon religion or any of their theology; but I’ve known quite a few of them in my time and they’re mostly upstanding folks, easy to get along with, and possessing very good ethics. The next President will be either Mr. Obama or Mr. Romney - and that choice should really be easy.
No doubts; I go back to JFK. Had no doubts about the Pope issuing edicts for the USA - and he didn’t. No doubts about any Mormon influence through Romney. I don’t believe in the Mormon religion or any of their theology; but I’ve known quite a few of them in my time and they’re mostly upstanding folks, easy to get along with, and possessing very good ethics. The next President will be either Mr. Obama or Mr. Romney - and that choice should really be easy.
Are you sure?
You really need to learn about what mormonism is rather than base your perception of it on a couple of people you know who are mormons and good guys.
Is there some evidence that Massachusetts was run by the LDS leadership during Romney’s governorship? What I see in this article and by some is speculation that Romney will be controlled politically by his church’s leadership.
I don’t see any evidence of this in Romney’s political past. Is there some specific policy decision that you fear the LDS leadership would force on Romney?
I believe LDS is a heretical religion. I disagree with their religious teaching.
However, the constitution states “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”
So, I don’t agree with those who would advocate not voting for someone solely based on their membership in the LDS Church. Particularly in this election when the alternative is continuing under the current regime.
thanks for your reply...
He is a moron to boot (WaWa?).
GOP primary voters aren't any smarter than democratic ones.
I don't believe a godamnned word this con man says, and do believe that he puts the cult above all else.
It was a weak field and the opposition to Romney never unified behind one candidate. A golden opportunity lost.
But, the primary is over, and now we have to hope the general election voters are smarter than they were last time.
:)
I question why he ONLY has Ann if he is such a believer in MORMON 'scripture'!!??
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
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