Posted on 06/16/2012 5:45:41 PM PDT by Salvation
I dont care who says what or how they say it or what they are thinking... that simple little prayer on the cards gives comfort to lots of people who are grieving. Its a NICE thing. However, I pray for the souls of my parents every single day. I will pray for them as long as I have breath left in my own body. So, some simple, little comforting prayer that helps people along isnt hurting anything and for Heavens sakes... to go into such detail over such a pretty sentiment is simply amazing to me. Keep praying for ALL the souls. THAT is what is important. To disect such a comforting poem to the degree this was disected is outrageously ridiculous.
I don't think you understand - the absolute joy of 90% of Christians, both Protestant and Catholic, is to talk about and ruminate upon how other people are going to go to hell.
That schadenfreude is the very point of the religion, you see. If you took that away - if you, for example, limited them to positive statements for other's good will, of the teaching of their own humility in not being able to judge others, like that guy said to do... uh... Jesus, that's it - Jesus, said to do, well, what's the fun in that? How would you know who was going to be a sinner? Why, the entire way to keep out of hell is to constantly talk about who's going there! After all, that's what Jesus did, right? He told everyone all about their sins, and how they weren't good enough.
I stopped worrying about what Catholics thought when I realized that they literally believe that ALL Protestants are going to hell - all of them, by definition. And, likewise, I stopped worrying about what Protestants thought when I realized that they believe ALL Catholics are going to hell - all of them, by definition.
Jesus wept.
And, of course, one needs to be totally pure to enter heaven; do you you believe that?
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
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1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory. |
1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin. |
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. |
“The Paradise that Christ spoke of was a waiting place. Where do you think all the good people of the Old Testament were until Jesus opened heaven?
You do believe that Jesus was the first one into heaven, dont you?”
I think believers - those who believed in a Messiah yet to come - went to heaven and continue to go there. I think of Enoch, who walked with God, and then was no more, because God took him. Or Moses and Elijah, appearing on the Mount of Transfiguration. Elijah actually went to heaven in a chariot of fire. Or Lazarus in the parable Jesus told. He was in Abraham’s bosom, so therefore Abraham is there.
I think Jesus was in heaven from the beginning, since He is God, and then came to earth at the appointed time as an incarnate human being. He was resurrected and has returned to heaven and remains there to this day, sitting at the right hand of the Father until all His enemies are made the footstool of His feet.
That’s how I read it.
Interesting point of view.
How to do you explain all the graves being opened after Christ’s death on the Cross and the spirits of the dead walking around Jerusalem — visibile to only believers?
I interpretation, and I believe that of the Church too, is that those people’s spirits did rise from their graves and wait until Jesus rose from his to follow him into heaven.
I’m no theologian, this is just what I have always believed.
The other thing that is always evident is that God can do all things and has no lateral timeline as we interpret a timeline.
There are quotes about a short time being as a thousand years.
So during those three days, an instant with God, Jesus visited Purgatory and announced the good news to them. Could be possible, right?
Ok then. So Jesus never once mentioned purgatory. So the Catholic church invented it.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Have a nice day.
“So during those three days, an instant with God, Jesus visited Purgatory and announced the good news to them. Could be possible, right?”
If there is a purgatory, sure. But I don’t see any evidence for one.
So what was Jesus doing, preaching to spirits in a prison? I don’t know. There is reference made there to the days of Noah. It is a mystery to me.
“How to do you explain all the graves being opened after Christs death on the Cross and the spirits of the dead walking around Jerusalem visibile to only believers?”
Well, it is obviously some sort of resurrection. A first fruits, perhaps?
2 Corinthians 12 1This boasting is all so foolish, but let me go on. Let me tell about the visions and revelations I received from the Lord. 2I£ was caught up into the third heaven fourteen years ago. 3Whether my body was there or just my spirit, I dont know; only God knows. 4But I do know that I£ was caught up into paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be told.
And John perhaps?
1Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast. The voice said, Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things. 2And instantly I was in the Spirit,£ and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it!
They both were called up in Spirit just as when we die our bodies die and our spirit lives. But wait let's go back a long ways before to the Prophet Elijah
2 Kings Ch 2 11As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a chariot of fire appeared, drawn by horses of fire. It drove between them, separating them, and Elijah was carried by a whirlwind into heaven. 12Elisha saw it and cried out, My father! My father! The chariots and charioteers of Israel! And as they disappeared from sight, Elisha tore his robe in two.
Enoch perhaps? Genesis ch 5 21When Enoch was 65 years old, his son Methuselah was born. 22After the birth of Methuselah, Enoch lived another 300 years in close fellowship with God, and he had other sons and daughters. 23Enoch lived 365 years in all. 24He enjoyed a close relationship with God throughout his life. Then suddenly, he disappeared because God took him.
Evidence in The Bible doesn't point to purgatory. Obviously Paul and John saw Heaven while they were alive as did Stephen as he died.
My wife many years ago used to be a nurses aid in a nursing home. Usually when one of the residents on her shift was fixing to pass they called on her to sit with them. Some who were conscious and well aware of their surroundings would talk to her as their final breaths were drawn. They would say things like look isn't it wonderful come with me.
One day while at work she got a call to the building her beloved grandmother who raised her was in. The supervisor said get down there fast. My wife {this was before we had met} went in to see her grandmother. She was responsive but weak and knew of my wifes presence. My wife interacted with her. The woman had been a choir director, piano teacher, and voice instructor. In her final minutes her hands were making movements my wife recognized as her method of directing music. Not the arms waving but small hand movement type. This was within a few moments of her passing.
A year and a half later on a day off she too would have her encounter with crossing over and had begun the initial journey. She had suffered an extreme for lack of a better term Spinal Infarction. She was conscious and we were driving police escorted to the nearest ER. She was describing to me what she was seeing as I was driving. I was screaming hang on don't leave me. She was my girlfriend then and this was on a date. We made it to the ER and she lived and is now my wife.
When on the cross Christ said "It is finished" it was completed. ALL Righteousness was fulfilled for you, me, and salvation for many was accomplished. We are made righteous by Him alone and cleansed by Him alone. His Blood, His Grace, and through that our debt paid.
Christ did not tell the thief today after purgatory you will be with me in paradise.
39One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed, So youre the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourselfand us, too, while youre at it! 40But the other criminal protested, Dont you fear God even when you are dying? 41We deserve to die for our evil deeds, but this man hasnt done anything wrong. 42Then he said, Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom. 43And Jesus replied, I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.
What is our punishment for our sins then? The Bible is quite clear on that.
Romans ch 6 15So since Gods grace has set us free from the law, does this mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16Dont you realize that whatever you choose to obey becomes your master? You can choose sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God and receive his approval. 17Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you have obeyed with all your heart the new teaching God has given you. 18Now you are free from sin, your old master, and you have become slaves to your new master, righteousness. 19I speak this way, using the illustration of slaves and masters, because it is easy to understand. Before, you let yourselves be slaves of impurity and lawlessness. Now you must choose to be slaves of righteousness so that you will become holy. 20In those days, when you were slaves of sin, you werent concerned with doing what was right. 21And what was the result? It was not good, since now you are ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Death of the body is our punishment for our sins on earth for the believers and unbelievers alike. Our bodies have the curse of sin but not our spirit if we accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Thus we are reborn. For those who believe yet shall we live.
The Bible teaches us believers are in heaven even as we are alive today. The Bible teaches us there are ones in hell today.
Luke ch 16 19Jesus said, There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed and who lived each day in luxury. 20At his door lay a diseased beggar named Lazarus. 21As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich mans table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores. 22Finally, the beggar died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham.£ The rich man also died and was buried, 23and his soul went to the place of the dead.£ There, in torment, he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham. 24The rich man shouted, Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in these flames. 25But Abraham said to him, son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. 26And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. Anyone who wanted to cross over to you from here is stopped at its edge, and no one there can cross over to us. 27Then the rich man said, Please, Father Abraham, send him to my fathers home. 28For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them about this place of torment so they wont have to come here when they die. 29But Abraham said, Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read their writings anytime they want to. 30The rich man replied, No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will turn from their sins. 31But Abraham said, If they wont listen to Moses and the prophets, they wont listen even if someone rises from the dead.
I told my pastor that, unless something changes radically between now and my demise, if ANYONE preaches about my being in heaven at my funeral I will stand up in my coffin and preach purgation and the healing love of God.
In Jude it refers to the Angels that sided with Satan and are awaiting the final judgment, not the individual judgment. They are already in Hell.
The other two verses Are Satan being cast into the pit, and they finally being cast after roamng and patrolling the earth: 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
And further in Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
As I said clearly Jesus went to a third place/ state that was niether Heaven nor Hell. These souls were able to be released, ergo purgatory.
Well people have gotten conforted by their dear ones being at peace, via having dreams in their sleep.
Well there are those folks who would believe that this it is just one man’s opinion.
I like the poem myself.
A very beautiful book, this is the kids edition with picutres in it.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/heaven-is-for-real-for-kids-todd-burpo/1110768200?ean=9781400318704
I don't think you know what purgatory is, since you seem to think it means your fate isn't "sealed once you die".
And it most certainly means nothing of the sort.
It would be nice is people would actually bother to understand Catholicism before they reject it, rather than jumping to conclusions based on hearsay.
Only saved people, destined for heaven, even get to purgatory.
Correct...There is no biblical evidence for a purgatory...
Just another tactic to keep them in bondage to their religion...
That's a ridiculous standard of proof. Where did Jesus mention the word "Trinity"? "Sola fide"? "Rapture"? "Dispensation"? "Bible"?
Purgatory is a word that comes from Latin. NT Scripture records the deeds of people who spoke Aramaic and Greek.
However, 1 Cor 3 does talk about someone who is "saved, but as through fire". Sounds like purgatory to me.
Correct...There is no biblical evidence for a purgatory...
Just another tactic to keep them in bondage to their religion...
You’re right. Jesus didn’t say any of those things either, although he did frequently refer to Scripture.
Purgatory is a concept invented out of whole cloth by a bunch of priests hundreds of years after Jesus died and was resurrected. It has no more scriptural validity than “ indulgence”.
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