Posted on 05/16/2012 3:48:19 PM PDT by wmfights
Well said
I wish every American Christian, particularly dispensationalists, would listen and take these two sermons to heart.
Who Are The Hebrews? The Israel of God.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11290611655
He Is a Jew
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=41107162134
Gal 3:16 "Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds as of many, but as of one, and to they seed which is Christ."
The promises would only be fulfilled in Christ THE seed (singular). Therefore whoever is in Christ is also a recipient of the promise.
This is not limited to an ethnic group (physical Israel and their law which was only a tutor until Christ came) but a spiritual group.
You are mistaken.
Gentiles are always Gentiles. They don't become Jews if they happen to become saved. God never makes that distinction in Scripture and it doesn't happen.
Lev_19:34 The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
The book of Leviticus is the book of the Law. God is telling the Jews there that anyone who happens to be among them, as in travelers or those staying for a time, are subject to the Law while they are there. Nowhere does that passage even hint that the covenants God made with Israel and His promises to them apply to those who happen to be among them at any given time.
God never intended that there be some artificial wall erected by the Jewish religion....his intent was to make worship of him inclusive, not exclusive.
Among those in Christ, there is no difference. Among believers, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile and male and female. There is and will remain a difference between the spiritual body of believers known as the "Church" and physical, literal, Israel. God says there is no difference between male and female in Christ, yet gives men and women different roles in the Church and in the home. Why does He still separate and make a distinction between men and women who are saved? If we are one and the same, why did God differentiate men and women even though we are Christian? The Church is a spiritual body, made up of people from every walk of life and every country. It is not a nation that they are born into, like the nation of Israel. God makes that distinction, and gives man not one iota of permission to merge the two together.
It is only fallen, arrogant, unredeemed man, who, with absolutely no indication from God, who spiritualizes all of the Bible to twist it to make it mean what he wants it to mean. The covenants, with the exception of the Mosaic covenant which the New Covenant which God made with Israel, not Gentiles, replaced, and promises God made to Israel, not the Church, are still in effect and have not been made null and void by the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross.
You have not produced one verse of Scripture where God says that His covenants and promises to Israel were cancelled with the death of Christ. And as long as you have no Scriptural validation, your belief is man-created and is a false doctrine.
I think you're confusing the Jewish religion with the Israel that the Lord established. As you can see from the scripture above they were quite different. By the time of Christ the Jewish religion had made it a crime to associate with "strangers" gentiles, much less love them.
I think also that you're creating an artificial wall between the "Church" and Israel. They are one and the same through Christ.
I think you are denying and rejecting what God said about His plans for Israel and His promises to them. And you have given no Scripture where God authorizes you to do that. I think you have made a choice to decide which parts of God's Word are true and which are false. I think you have taken it upon yourself to pick and choose the Scripture that you like and dismiss the Scripture you don't like based on a false doctrine that you have been taught. I think you need to read post 33 to see how far in dangerous territory you actually are.
And the Scripture you gave at the end has not one word in it that indicates that the promises God made to the nation of Israel includes Gentiles or the Church or that the promises God made to the nation of Israel have been cancelled.
Where does God say that David will be king over Christians? And if God still has to cleanse us and take our sins away at some future point, then Jesus Christ died for no reason, didn't He?
I am? What does this mean and who is it directed to?
Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their [a]dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God." (Ezekiel 37:21-23)
“A Redeemer will come to Zion, and to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the LORD. 21 “As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your [a]offspring, nor from the mouth of your [b]offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”"“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
“My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will [b]place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’” (Ezekiel 37:21-28)
Where and when did Jesus Christ say that David would be a king over the Church? When did God make a land covenant with the Church? Where did God give you permission or authority to allegorize and spritualize any part of His Word and to decide which parts are true and which are not?
Thank You!
I really appreciate you taking the time to try and educate our Brothers and Sisters from Scripture.
6* Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17* And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18* For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19* ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20* Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21* Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22* But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (Galatians 3:16-22)
It has NOTHING to do with fleshly descent. All are concluded under sin. The promise is available to ALL that believe on the LORD Jesus Christ.
The strongest claim that one can make is that these saints at Rome consisted both of Jews of the flesh and gentiles. I'm sure there arose jealousies and false pride due to some "Jews" claiming special status because of their flesh. Paul would have none of it.
26* For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27* For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28* There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29* And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29)
The flesh means nothing. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. But that born of the spirit is spirit. This has always been true. (Jesus chided Nicodemus for not knowing this. (John 3:10)). Paul uses an allegory to explain what the effective force of the promise is, eliminating "flesh" as a variable in this salvific relation, if you will. (Sorry, I'm a math major).
22* For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23* But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24* Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25* For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26* But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27* For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28* Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29* But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30* Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31* So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.(Galatians 3:22-31)
This is an allegory. Both Ishmael and Isaac were "children of the flesh", but only one was the child of promise. Why? The passage explains it: pride in physical descent in lieu of faith is bondage. But faith in the promised seed (Jesus Christ--see Galatians 3:16) is freedom. Paul says in Romans 9:6 that "not all Israel is of Israel." The true Israel should not be confused with the Israel of the flesh. The commonwealth of Israel consists only those who are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
12* That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13* But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14* ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15* Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16* And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17* And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18* For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19* Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20* And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21* In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22* In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:12-22)
Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition. We are no more strangers, but fellowcitizens with the saints. The saints.
(You wrote): Your understanding is incorrect. They were a Messianic Believers Community.
"Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles." (Romans 1:13)
They were predominantly gentiles, or else he would not have written "other" gentiles.
It has NOTHING to do with fleshly descent. All are concluded under sin. The promise is available to ALL that believe on the LORD Jesus Christ.
"Do not say to yourselves 'we have Abraham for our father', for I tell you God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham."
And so it was!
U-2012> Your understanding is incorrect. They were a Messianic Believers Community.
"Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles." (Romans 1:13) They were predominantly gentiles, or else he would not have written "other" gentiles.
Try reading five to ten verses before When you rip a verse out of context and apply
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
eisegesis you get any answer you desire.
and after for understanding.
For some, it's been years of exposure to Scriptural truth and they continue to choose to reject the truth without being ever able to support their own beliefs with the same Scripture.
For those, I've pretty much done what Jesus said to do - shake the dust off your feet and move on. The time does come, as we are told, when God ceases to strive with men.
So the New Covenant was made with the Jews.
And to thy seed, which is Christ.
The promise was made to Abraham, and his descendants, the Jews. The Jews who accept Christ will reap the benefits of the New Covenant. There is nothing there that even hints at a spiritual "seed". So far, all we see are the words "Abraham's seed", which are the descendants of Abraham's son, Isaac.
Who is the following directed to?
“A Redeemer will come to Zion, and to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the LORD. 21 “As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your [a]offspring, nor from the mouth of your [b]offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”"“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
“My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will [b]place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’” (Ezekiel 37:21-28)
Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their [a]dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God." (Ezekiel 37:21-23)
Sounds like a people who will be brought back to their own land, forgiven of their sins, and cleansed. What land did God give the Church? Did God say that the Redeemer will come to the land He gave the Church and reside there among us? Where is our land? If none of that fits the spiritual body that is the Church, then who is it referring to? Have those promises been fulfilled? Is there a people who is currently living in a land, who are without sin, who is ruled over by David, and who have the Redeemer living in their land?
Now, we finally get to the Gentiles, after the four- fifths of the Bible that is about Israel.
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. (Romans 11:1-2)
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. (Romans 11:11)
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [h]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. (Romans 11:17-21)
So we see that the Church is not only not the "seed" of Abraham, if the Jews hadn't rejected Jesus, Gentiles would not have been offered salvation at all. The only reason that Gentiles have a prayer at eternal life is because the Jews are temporarily in a condition of being set aside, and as we know from the promises God made to them, three of which are posted above, they will be brought back into reconciliation with God and forgiveness and salvation.
We are not the seed of Abraham, we are street urchins who God graciously let into His home. We are spiritual participants of the New Covenant which was made with the Jews. The New Covenant was not made with Gentiles and it was not made with the Church.
And replacement theology is a demonic doctrine that cannot be validated by Scripture, and puts those who choose to believe it, in the face of all the mountains of proof that God is against it, in a condition of enmity with God and in a position of judgement.
I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you. (Genesis 12:3)
That's another promise God made to His chosen, covenant people, not the Gentiles. And it is still in full effect today. Replacement theologists who curse the Jews by denying God's promises to them have put themselves in a position of war with God. It's as simple as that.
So you ask for proof from Scripture that the promises were made to the church (i.e. people of faith), then completely ignore the scripture I gave you.
My advice would be to make your arguments more cogent (compact) with fewer words and, more importantly, address DIRECTLY what people say rather than parrot your same talking points over and over.
Who were the promises in the Scripture I gave you directed to?
You really just want to talk about your own stuff, don't you?
Who are the promises that I posted directed to?
This isn't rocket science. Who did God promise land to and who did He promise reconciliation to after the people the promises were made to were back in the land that was given to them?
Who are the people that God made those promises to?
Who were the promises that I posted directed to?
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