How NOT to Investigate Mitt Romney’s Mormon Ties

Religion Dispatches.org ^ | May 2, 2012 | Joanna Brooks

[Colofornian]

Earlier this week, Mother Jones' Tim Murphy tried to connect the dots between Mitt Romney and Cleon Skousen, the ultra-conservative, anti-Communist LDS political theorist made famous by Glenn Beck. Murphy dug out an August 2007 radio interview Romney did with a Rush Limbaugh-esque political talk jock in Iowa, who, after goading Romney on his faith, turned the subject to Skousen.

Romney gamely played along. He told radio host Jan Mickelson that he once took a class from Skousen at Brigham Young University, admitted that had not read much of Skousen, and agreed that Skousen's The Making of America might be "worth reading." Murphy zeroes in the exchange in an effort to tie Romney to the conservative fringe.

Back in 2008, progressives grumbled when conservatives made controversy of Michelle Obama's Princeton senior thesis on race. But Romney didn't even have to write a thesis on or with Skousen to get a write-up in the progressive press. He just sat through one of his classes back in the day at BYU...

SNIP

One well-worn option is to use his Mormonism to make Romney look fringe by connecting him to figures like Skousen. Call it the Jon Krakauer approach: focus on extreme political thought, or Mexican polygamy, or nineteenth-century history...

[Colofornian]

From the article: Murphy dug out an August 2007 radio interview Romney did with a Rush Limbaugh-esque political talk jock in Iowa, who, after goading Romney on his faith, turned the subject to Skousen. Romney gamely played along. He told radio host Jan Mickelson that he once took a class from Skousen at Brigham Young University, admitted that had not read much of Skousen, and agreed that Skousen's The Making of America might be "worth reading."

Per Tim Murphy: In Making of America, the textbook that Mickelson referenced in his conversation with Romney, Skousen quotes from an essay which argues that "one of the blessings of slavery" was that slaves' marriages were fleeting, and suggests that being bought at auction improved slaves' self worth. The real victims of slavery, the author suggested, were the white owners. The book also referred to black children as "pickaninnies"—which prompted lawmakers in California to block the text from being used in classrooms. In Skousen's book, the model Supreme Court decision was Dred Scott, which correctly demarcated the limits of federal power; Roger B. Taney, who wrote the majority opinion in that case, was the model Supreme Court justice. Although he didn't seem familiar with Making of America, Romney was almost certainly aware of his ex-professor's reputation. Skousen's academic colleagues began to push back against his teachings while Romney was still a student at BYU. As Alexander Zaitchik reported for Salon, some of Skousen's colleagues at BYU insisted on teaching his economic treatise, Naked Capitalism, which theorized that a global cabal of bankers was quietly controlling the world from behind the scenes. (Naked Capitalism was a sequel to Naked Communism, which argued that the Soviet Union was just a pawn in larger effort by the United Nations to control the world). Skousen's crackpot theories eventually drew the attention of the leaders of the Mormon church, who were determined to distance themselves from Skousen's sermonizing. The church, Zaitchik reported, issued a formal order instructing clergy not to promote Skousen's work (he had started an anti-Communist civics group called the Freeman Institute) from the pulpit, lest anyone get the wrong impression about the church's beliefs. Romney, a former Mormon bishop, would have had to have been living under a rock not to know about Skousen's conspiratorial reputation. After his heyday in the 1980s, Skousen faded into irrelevance, only to be resurrected at the dawn of the tea party era. Glenn Beck, who called Skousen's Five Thousand Year Leap "years ahead of its time," made its ideas the centerpiece of his 9/12 movement and wrote the foreword to a new edition of the book.

Source: Mitt Romney's Nutty Professor Meet W. Cleon Skousen: conspiracy theorist, slavery apologist, tea party icon. Mitt Romney says you should read him.

Well, allow me to be "succinct and clear" on some of Cleon Skousen's other beliefs (beyond communism) -- and Beck's tie to Skousen.

On the following FR thread -- How Mormonism Built Glenn Beck an excerpt from that article mentioned: A significant figure in this world is the late Cleon Skousen (1913–2006), the archconservative and fiercely anti-communist Brigham Young University professor, founder of the Freeman Society, and author of 15 books, including The Naked Capitalist, The Making of America, and Prophecy and Modern Times. Beck, who first cited Skousen in his 2003 book The Real America: Messages from the Heart and the Heartland, later started pitching Skousen’s 1981 book The 5,000 Year Leap on air in December, 2008. He wrote a preface for a new edition of the book issued a few months later and in his March 2009 kick-off of the 9/12 movement declared Skousen’s book to be “divinely inspired.”... Cleon Skousen was never remaindered among the most politically conservative Mormons, for whom he has been a household name since the 1960s.

So Beck was calling Skousen's book "divinely inspired" and Mitt Romney was also advocating on the air that one of Skousen's books was worth a read??? Do Beck and Romney know that Dr. Cleon Skousen declared that God could "cease to be God" if ever He lost the support of other gods???

Dr. Skousen: Through modern revelation we learn that the universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligence's, and we further learn that Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligence's honor and sustain Him as such...since God 'acquired' the honor and sustaining influence of 'all things' it follows as a corollary that if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or 'sense of justice' of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the 'power' of God would disintegrate...'He would cease to be God'“ (The First 2,000 Years, pp. 355-356).

Romney, Beck & Skousen represent the Mormon belief, thereby, that God was once a man and "acquired" godhood; and that, you can do that, too. And that the Mormon god is part of a broader "council of gods" (Skousen's "intelligences" who "honor and sustain" that god as a "fellow god")

Do Romney and Beck believe Skousen's "pro-family" view on parenthood? (That parenthood = godhood???)

“Mortality made it possible for us to be endowed with the powers of procreation for the first time…The divine power of procreation is described by the Lord as being a fundamental quality of Godhood. In fact, eternal parenthood is Godhood” (The First 2000 Years, pp. 39-40).

To unpack Skousen, what's he saying here?
Perhaps you've seen the Lds bumper sticker, "Families are forever" Lds get that from Joseph Smith's Doctrine & Covenants D&C 132 re: "eternal (celestial) marriage."
Well Skousen used the same section --vv. 19-20 to teach eternal parenthood. (The thing is those verses also teach polygamy)
What did Skousen mean by his reference to "mortality" and "procreation for the first time"? Lds believe that by Adam & Eve sinning, it wasn't simply a "fall" -- it was a "fall upward" -- an event to be "celebrated." (see quote below) Why? Because they believe that it was only by mankind sinning that they could die -- becoming "mortal." And that by becoming "mortal" they could rise to godhood. (They get this in part from the Book of Mormon -- a phrase that reads, "Adam fell that men might be..." [it doesn't say be what...Mormons fill in the blank on that] Anyway, Skousen didn't believe that God made Eve able to reproduce until she fell; that falling was a good thing.

In this way, Mormons have the absolute wacky understanding that the world's evils were something the Mormon god wanted man to do:

The Lds church in one of its priesthood manuals calls the Fall a "Great Blessing" while one of its general authorities, "apostle" Dallin Oaks, wrote: "Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve's act and honor her with wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall." ("The Choice that Began Mortality" Liahona, 2002)

Only in Mormonism are wars, murders, hate, idolatry, racism, rape, incest, sexual abuse, lust, theft, and other consequences of the fall a blessing to be "celebrated."

[Vaquero]

At least there’s no evidence Romney has promised the Rooskies he’ll throw open the castle gates to the encircling hordes after the election.

I know the implied message here is ‘Like zer0bama’...but just for giggles here is the open mike quote by ‘the messiah’ to Medvedev on the missile defense

talking about the need for incoming Russian President Vladimir Putin to give him “space” when it comes to missile defense when he told Medvedev, “This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility.”

[Elsie]

One well-worn option is to use his Mormonism to make Romney look fringe by connecting him to MORMONism!

LOOK 'fringe'?

Ha!

Even though Willard was BORN into MORMONism; by the time a person is into their 30's, and is STILL 'in' it; they OWN it and all that it has ever produced.

[Elsie]

There are a LOT of ‘old guys’ on FR...

[muawiyah]

This guy reminds me of Billy James Hargis.

He used to be big in anti-communist circles.

Way back before the Internet it usually wasn't possible to just call a commie a commie and walk away. Most people wouldn't understand what you'd said and you'd look like a kook. The 'solution" was to interpolate/interpret your anti-communism thesis in terms of a locally prevailing orthodoxy. So you had anti-commie Mormons, anti-commie Baptists, anti-commie Catholics, and so forth, and they'd have their spokesman and he'd say all sorts of things.

WIthin that mix you had OTHERS who'd use the anti-commie thing to peddle their own agenda.

Billie James probably fell into that last category although his "failings" are not easily classifiable.

He went away ~ but others took up the cudgle, and eventually America woke up, elected Kennedy, Nixon and Reagan (All well known anti-communist figures) and there we have it.

Simultaneously communications improved so there was less need for a single spokesman to push any sort of political philosophy, or to oppose one.

Recalling all that I quickly looked up Skousen to see if he had anything to do with Hargis, and lo and behold he did ~ and also Reverend Moon, etc. The whole crew ~ I gather Skousen was the Mormon version of all the other formal anti-commie speakers, if not leaders. There were similar techniques and so forth, and they communicated with each other.

To a degree it all worked.

The question now is whether or not Skousen is still relevant ~ and the Progressives attacking Romney on that point are missing the obvious ~ if Romney exists, Skousen failed!

But did Billie James Hargis?

Well Mitt wins one there ~ if Billie won him over in his final days in some way that's the last thing the Progressives are going to condemn.

[jjotto]

101 Constitutional Questions To Ask Candidates
by W. Cleon Skousen

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/articles/101-constitutional-questions-to-ask-candidates/

[Cronos]

Elsie, colo, I respect and share your Mormon issues, but now that it seems we have Mitt as the only viable candidate against O, I wonder.

I'm torn -- Mitt is a fraud and not a conservative, but he's a lesser evil than Obama. That's doesn't say much I know -- choose between a Moslem and a Mormon.

But in this event, if we choose the Moslem, that means the end of the US.

Mark my words -- if Obama wins, the US is a third-world country in 2020. If Mitt wins, that will be delayed beyond 2020 (but not stopped significantly)

What are you guys going to do? Seriously? I'm open to any and all suggestions.

[muawiyah]

We have viable candidates ~ Romney is not among them. The guy can't win Virginia, and if you can't win Virginia in the projected very evenly divided electoral situation, you lose.

This is the battleground state ~ the others appear to be a sideshow, and this is where the Mittbots fouled their nest ~ quite publicly.

Very simply, the Convention must chose a candidate who can win Virginia ~ and that's not going to be any of the big names currently holding office here. They're all Mittbots.

[Cronos]

I’m of the opinion that FR can move this election — if all FReepers pick ONE candidate, we have a chance.

[backwoods-engineer]

A bridge too far.

Romney's Mormonism is a known quantity. It's his statism that people need to become aware of.

And busting on Cleon Skousen? He was just reflecting on the Mormon values at the time. Yeah, they were pro-slavery back then. So were some of my ancestors.

And, I think "The 5,000 Year Leap" is a great book. Does that make me a racist pro-slavery Mormon? No. Not any of the three.

You gotta extract the good, people. Find truth wherever you can, and discard the dross.

[backwoods-engineer]

I’m of the opinion that FR can move this election — if all FReepers pick ONE candidate, we have a chance.

It WON'T be Romney. And if you start advocating that here, Jim WILL give you the zot. He's already done it to others who are actively campaigning for Mitt on FR.

[Colofornian]

What are you guys going to do? Seriously? I'm open to any and all suggestions.

I'm voting for Virgil Goode...and once Romney is nominated, I'm leaving the GoP party...

Big Tent, yes...Ever-expanding tent so that the GoP eventually pushes somebody to the left of Obama 15-25 years down the line? (Nope)

But in this event, if we choose the Moslem, that means the end of the US.

I've read the Old Testament...Dozens & dozens of times, God was provoked by His people...

Why? And why were they often temporarily "judged" (like being delivered over to Babylonians, etc.)?

The most common issue was idolatry being practiced by Jews.

That gets to God, who is a jealous God in the most perfect sense of that word. (Human jealousy is possessive when we have no right to possess another person; divine jealousy from a perfect being is protective over those He has a right to be as Maker)

If we have an overwhelming # of God's people (Christians) voting for Romney, who portends to be a future rival god of THE God...someone who thinks he will receive worship, praise, adoration, glory, prayer from creatures...[temple Mormons already think they are gods-in-embryo]...how do you think God will react to such elevation and endorsement of an idol?

You think He'll pour out blessings on that?

[Graybeard58]

There are a LOT of ‘old guys’ on FR...

I resemble that remark.

[Graybeard58]

What are you guys going to do? Seriously? I'm open to any and all suggestions.

I know it's not a solution but I cannot bring myself to vote for either one. There doesn't appear to be a solution to my dilemma except to rejoice in the fact that both evils cannot win.

God's still in charge and whichever evil we get is for His own purposes.

Proverbs 16 V. 4, K.J.V.:

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

[Cronos]

I don't want Romney, let's be clear. All the ones I was supporting are going or gone -- Cain, Santorum and Gingrich. If Palin throws her hat in, I'm 300% for her. Give me an option, seriously, any option but Romney --> as I said I’m of the opinion that FR can move this election — if all FReepers pick ONE candidate, we have a chance. --> if we all write in one name (preferably NOT Romney or Paul), we can change the election I believe. Perhaps that's naive, but I'd rather see all us FReepers stick together.

[Mountain Mary]

“I’m voting for Virgil Goode...and once Romney is nominated, I’m leaving the GoP party.”

Ditto, Colo. This election season is going to be one slobbering shout out for the GOP-E and will be absolutely nauseating.
I’m a political junkie, conservative talk show radio listener and former Faux news viewer.

Week six of “NO FAUX” and it feels great. Only radio show allowed is Levin and I turn him off when he goes all in for Rom. Yesterday, I was cheering when he said that the Mittens team is “odd and they better get their act together”.
Leaving to spend the summer at my cabin in the woods(literally) and will continue this sabbatical.
As for the internet, that’s still on my list cuz I have control.
What are some of the rest of you going to do to get through this hellish next few months?

[Cronos]

yes, but what do we do, seriously? I despise Romney, but he’s the lesser of two evils. Unless Palin (or even, let’s be honest, any non-Romney) comes along, the only other alternative is to sit it out and let O win...

[Cronos]

You think He'll pour out blessings on that?

No. But the curses will be (and ARE) on us with the Moslem O in power, right?

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***But did Billie James Hargis?***

Billy went bust when it was found he was diddling both male and female students at his Tulsa university. I was living in Tulsa at the time and it was all over the news.

[Graybeard58]

I've read the Old Testament...Dozens & dozens of times, God was provoked by His people..

So too have I and the rest of your # 13 could not have been stated more succinctly and accurately.

I was frightened when it first became apparent that Romney was going to be the "R" nominee. After prayerful consideration I concluded that while it matters for us in the short term, for eternity I have my God and Savior and nothing, nothing can separate me from that.

God has a plan, Romney or Obama may be somewhere in that plan but the prospect no longer frightens me, it is His plan and even though we don't know what it is, He is Sovereign, the Great I Am and I trust Him with all my being.

Some may see this as a "defeatist" attitude, it is realism to me.

A Pastor friend of mine told me that in the Greek version where Jesus says, "I will never leave you nor forsake you", that the word "never" is repeated 4 times. That's emphasis"!

[fml]

With all due respect, why is religion an issue in electing a president. I know the talking points and don't buy it.

With Obama and the talk he is Muslim, that makes him a liar, I get it. But not with Romney. How is religious bigoty a conservative.

[Graybeard58]

Leaving to spend the summer at my cabin in the woods(literally) and will continue this sabbatical.

And presumably in the mountains (Mountain Mary). Isn't that astute of me? Have fun, wish I were there. I'm confined to the flat lands of Illinois.

[Cronos]

Romney’s a RINO — for me it’s clear, whether he is Mormon or Evangelical or Baptist or Presbyterian or Catholic, he’s still a scumbag RINO. If we had a conservative Mormon, I’d have more to think about, but Mitt is so obviously scum that I don’t care what his religion is...

[jimt]

Typical of your THREE MINUTE'S HATE approach, you post a bunch of innuendo and smear from wacko sites that have little or no regard for the truth.

Shameful - and un-Christian.

[fml]

Then why jump on the Morman bashing bandwagon?

[The Great RJ]

I have far more concern about Obama’s Muslim upbringing and 20 years of listening to Rev. Wright’s racist theology than I do about Romney’s Mormonism.

[backwoods-engineer]

but I'd rather see all us FReepers stick together.

You might be able to get 50% to go for a particularly conservative candidate. Who did you have in mind?

[muawiyah]

At the moment were on the “Let one thousand flowers bloom” phase; then the purges; then we select one leader.(/s)

[muawiyah]

Romney isn’t the lesser of two evils. Evil is evil under all conditions.

[Cronos]

I’m thinking of one — Cain.

[Cronos]

I didn’t jump on it here in this thread.

[fml]

Right That's doesn't say much I know -- choose between a Moslem and a Mormon. But in this event, if we choose the Moslem, that means the end of the US.

[Cronos]

touche.

[Jabba the Nutt]

I’d be really worried, if Romney were linked to that Mormon nutcase and very powerful man, Harry Reid.

[Bruce Campbells Chin]

Harry Reid is pretty good evidence that conspiracy theories about Mormons are pretty worthless. The Mormons I’ve known personally are hard core Republicans, and as much as Hatch may not be ideal, the truth is that he’s generally been a pretty reliable moderate/conservative Republican during his time in Congress — one of Reagan’s biggest allies. It’s time for him to be replaced by a better option, but we shouldn’t lose perspective and consider him anything like Reid.

[greyfoxx39]

Harry Reid is pretty good evidence that conspiracy theories about Mormons are pretty worthless.

This reply was made back in January by P. Marlowe:

Temple recommend question #7

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

The shunning requirement clearly prohibits Romney from associating with ex-Mormons and all Christians who do not believe that Mormonism is Christian. And with Romney being a pro-abortion Mormon and most practicing Catholics and Evangelical Christians recognizing that Mormonism is a false religion, I would think that he will appoint either pro-Abortion Mormons (like Harry Reid) to judicial offices or he will appoint only Mormons, agnostics, atheists, lapsed Catholics and Unitarian type non-Catholics to the Judiciary.

Does anyone know whether or not Romney appointed any Conservative Bible-Believing Protestant or Practicing Catholic judges while he was governor of Massachusetts?

Or is that just a Rhetorical question?

Link

Temple recommend question #7

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

[Colofornian]

I have far more concern about Obama’s Muslim upbringing and 20 years of listening to Rev. Wright’s racist theology than I do about Romney’s Mormonism.

Well, look out! The self-appointed FREEPER "bigot patrol" might accuse you of "bigotry" because of your Muslim/Rev. Wright Obama references here...

On second thought, I don't think they've deviated a single time from their open pattern of religious hypocrisy on that...so I think you're "safe."

[Elsie]

Yeah, they were pro-slavery back then.

BACK THEN?

MITT was in his THIRTIES when LDS, Inc. backed off of it's BLACK stance!

(Although much of it is STILL 'scripture'!)

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"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.

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Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'

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August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)

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1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."

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We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.

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Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.

The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."

(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).

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When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."

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When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."

(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)

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Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.

 

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

 

(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)

 

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[Elsie]

I know the talking points and don't buy it.

Goody for you!

[Elsie]

But not with Romney. How is religious bigoty a conservative.

Darned if I know!!

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Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

 

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

 

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

 

 

 

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

 

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

 

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

 

 

 

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

[Elsie]

Shameful - and un-Christian.

Poor jimmy; nothing one a one-track mind with his 3 minutes mantra...

Ma'am; we do this for a LOT longer than 3 minutes every day!

[Elsie]

... from wacko sites ...

Yup...

LDS.ORG is mighty wacko!

[Elsie]

Then why jump on the Morman bashing bandwagon?

Why not?

It is a heresy that spits in the face of GOD.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Skousen was a John Bircher.

[Elsie]

The Mormons I’ve known personally are hard core Republicans...

And they VOTED for a hard left Reid.

Why?

He is a MORMON.

MORMONism trumps all politics for these folks.

[fml]

Hey Elsie,

Would you stop responding to me. I've heard it already ad nauseam

Please

[Elsie]

Would you stop responding to me.

Sorry.

You have CHOSEN to participate in a PUBLIC discussion.

I have CHOSEN to respond.

You can CHOOSE to either IGNORE what I post, or plead some more.

[Mountain Mary]

WI. Northwoods.

Sorry but I also have a place in Colorado! :-)

[Notary Sojac]

One thing that gets on my nerves is when Freepers quote from Skousen's book "The Naked Communist" and attribute the quote to the "Communist Manifesto".

Now I can point them to this post. THanks,