Skip to comments.How NOT to Investigate Mitt Romney’s Mormon Ties
Posted on 05/04/2012 4:04:53 AM PDT by Colofornian
Earlier this week, Mother Jones' Tim Murphy tried to connect the dots between Mitt Romney and Cleon Skousen, the ultra-conservative, anti-Communist LDS political theorist made famous by Glenn Beck. Murphy dug out an August 2007 radio interview Romney did with a Rush Limbaugh-esque political talk jock in Iowa, who, after goading Romney on his faith, turned the subject to Skousen.
Romney gamely played along. He told radio host Jan Mickelson that he once took a class from Skousen at Brigham Young University, admitted that had not read much of Skousen, and agreed that Skousen's The Making of America might be "worth reading." Murphy zeroes in the exchange in an effort to tie Romney to the conservative fringe.
Back in 2008, progressives grumbled when conservatives made controversy of Michelle Obama's Princeton senior thesis on race. But Romney didn't even have to write a thesis on or with Skousen to get a write-up in the progressive press. He just sat through one of his classes back in the day at BYU...
One well-worn option is to use his Mormonism to make Romney look fringe by connecting him to figures like Skousen. Call it the Jon Krakauer approach: focus on extreme political thought, or Mexican polygamy, or nineteenth-century history...
(Excerpt) Read more at religiondispatches.org ...
Per Tim Murphy: In Making of America, the textbook that Mickelson referenced in his conversation with Romney, Skousen quotes from an essay which argues that "one of the blessings of slavery" was that slaves' marriages were fleeting, and suggests that being bought at auction improved slaves' self worth. The real victims of slavery, the author suggested, were the white owners. The book also referred to black children as "pickaninnies"which prompted lawmakers in California to block the text from being used in classrooms. In Skousen's book, the model Supreme Court decision was Dred Scott, which correctly demarcated the limits of federal power; Roger B. Taney, who wrote the majority opinion in that case, was the model Supreme Court justice. Although he didn't seem familiar with Making of America, Romney was almost certainly aware of his ex-professor's reputation. Skousen's academic colleagues began to push back against his teachings while Romney was still a student at BYU. As Alexander Zaitchik reported for Salon, some of Skousen's colleagues at BYU insisted on teaching his economic treatise, Naked Capitalism, which theorized that a global cabal of bankers was quietly controlling the world from behind the scenes. (Naked Capitalism was a sequel to Naked Communism, which argued that the Soviet Union was just a pawn in larger effort by the United Nations to control the world). Skousen's crackpot theories eventually drew the attention of the leaders of the Mormon church, who were determined to distance themselves from Skousen's sermonizing. The church, Zaitchik reported, issued a formal order instructing clergy not to promote Skousen's work (he had started an anti-Communist civics group called the Freeman Institute) from the pulpit, lest anyone get the wrong impression about the church's beliefs. Romney, a former Mormon bishop, would have had to have been living under a rock not to know about Skousen's conspiratorial reputation. After his heyday in the 1980s, Skousen faded into irrelevance, only to be resurrected at the dawn of the tea party era. Glenn Beck, who called Skousen's Five Thousand Year Leap "years ahead of its time," made its ideas the centerpiece of his 9/12 movement and wrote the foreword to a new edition of the book.
Well, allow me to be "succinct and clear" on some of Cleon Skousen's other beliefs (beyond communism) -- and Beck's tie to Skousen.
On the following FR thread -- How Mormonism Built Glenn Beck an excerpt from that article mentioned: A significant figure in this world is the late Cleon Skousen (19132006), the archconservative and fiercely anti-communist Brigham Young University professor, founder of the Freeman Society, and author of 15 books, including The Naked Capitalist, The Making of America, and Prophecy and Modern Times. Beck, who first cited Skousen in his 2003 book The Real America: Messages from the Heart and the Heartland, later started pitching Skousens 1981 book The 5,000 Year Leap on air in December, 2008. He wrote a preface for a new edition of the book issued a few months later and in his March 2009 kick-off of the 9/12 movement declared Skousens book to be divinely inspired.... Cleon Skousen was never remaindered among the most politically conservative Mormons, for whom he has been a household name since the 1960s.
So Beck was calling Skousen's book "divinely inspired" and Mitt Romney was also advocating on the air that one of Skousen's books was worth a read??? Do Beck and Romney know that Dr. Cleon Skousen declared that God could "cease to be God" if ever He lost the support of other gods???
Dr. Skousen: Through modern revelation we learn that the universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligence's, and we further learn that Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligence's honor and sustain Him as such...since God 'acquired' the honor and sustaining influence of 'all things' it follows as a corollary that if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or 'sense of justice' of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the 'power' of God would disintegrate...'He would cease to be God' (The First 2,000 Years, pp. 355-356).
Romney, Beck & Skousen represent the Mormon belief, thereby, that God was once a man and "acquired" godhood; and that, you can do that, too. And that the Mormon god is part of a broader "council of gods" (Skousen's "intelligences" who "honor and sustain" that god as a "fellow god")
Do Romney and Beck believe Skousen's "pro-family" view on parenthood? (That parenthood = godhood???)
Mortality made it possible for us to be endowed with the powers of procreation for the first time The divine power of procreation is described by the Lord as being a fundamental quality of Godhood. In fact, eternal parenthood is Godhood (The First 2000 Years, pp. 39-40).
To unpack Skousen, what's he saying here?
Perhaps you've seen the Lds bumper sticker, "Families are forever" Lds get that from Joseph Smith's Doctrine & Covenants D&C 132 re: "eternal (celestial) marriage."
Well Skousen used the same section --vv. 19-20 to teach eternal parenthood. (The thing is those verses also teach polygamy)
What did Skousen mean by his reference to "mortality" and "procreation for the first time"? Lds believe that by Adam & Eve sinning, it wasn't simply a "fall" -- it was a "fall upward" -- an event to be "celebrated." (see quote below) Why? Because they believe that it was only by mankind sinning that they could die -- becoming "mortal." And that by becoming "mortal" they could rise to godhood. (They get this in part from the Book of Mormon -- a phrase that reads, "Adam fell that men might be..." [it doesn't say be what...Mormons fill in the blank on that] Anyway, Skousen didn't believe that God made Eve able to reproduce until she fell; that falling was a good thing.
In this way, Mormons have the absolute wacky understanding that the world's evils were something the Mormon god wanted man to do:
The Lds church in one of its priesthood manuals calls the Fall a "Great Blessing" while one of its general authorities, "apostle" Dallin Oaks, wrote: "Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve's act and honor her with wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall." ("The Choice that Began Mortality" Liahona, 2002)
Only in Mormonism are wars, murders, hate, idolatry, racism, rape, incest, sexual abuse, lust, theft, and other consequences of the fall a blessing to be "celebrated."
I know the implied message here is ‘Like zer0bama’...but just for giggles here is the open mike quote by ‘the messiah’ to Medvedev on the missile defense
talking about the need for incoming Russian President Vladimir Putin to give him space when it comes to missile defense when he told Medvedev, This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility.
Even though Willard was BORN into MORMONism; by the time a person is into their 30's, and is STILL 'in' it; they OWN it and all that it has ever produced.
There are a LOT of ‘old guys’ on FR...
He used to be big in anti-communist circles.
Way back before the Internet it usually wasn't possible to just call a commie a commie and walk away. Most people wouldn't understand what you'd said and you'd look like a kook. The 'solution" was to interpolate/interpret your anti-communism thesis in terms of a locally prevailing orthodoxy. So you had anti-commie Mormons, anti-commie Baptists, anti-commie Catholics, and so forth, and they'd have their spokesman and he'd say all sorts of things.
WIthin that mix you had OTHERS who'd use the anti-commie thing to peddle their own agenda.
Billie James probably fell into that last category although his "failings" are not easily classifiable.
He went away ~ but others took up the cudgle, and eventually America woke up, elected Kennedy, Nixon and Reagan (All well known anti-communist figures) and there we have it.
Simultaneously communications improved so there was less need for a single spokesman to push any sort of political philosophy, or to oppose one.
Recalling all that I quickly looked up Skousen to see if he had anything to do with Hargis, and lo and behold he did ~ and also Reverend Moon, etc. The whole crew ~ I gather Skousen was the Mormon version of all the other formal anti-commie speakers, if not leaders. There were similar techniques and so forth, and they communicated with each other.
To a degree it all worked.
The question now is whether or not Skousen is still relevant ~ and the Progressives attacking Romney on that point are missing the obvious ~ if Romney exists, Skousen failed!
But did Billie James Hargis?
Well Mitt wins one there ~ if Billie won him over in his final days in some way that's the last thing the Progressives are going to condemn.
101 Constitutional Questions To Ask Candidates
by W. Cleon Skousen
I'm torn -- Mitt is a fraud and not a conservative, but he's a lesser evil than Obama. That's doesn't say much I know -- choose between a Moslem and a Mormon.
But in this event, if we choose the Moslem, that means the end of the US.
Mark my words -- if Obama wins, the US is a third-world country in 2020. If Mitt wins, that will be delayed beyond 2020 (but not stopped significantly)
What are you guys going to do? Seriously? I'm open to any and all suggestions.
This is the battleground state ~ the others appear to be a sideshow, and this is where the Mittbots fouled their nest ~ quite publicly.
Very simply, the Convention must chose a candidate who can win Virginia ~ and that's not going to be any of the big names currently holding office here. They're all Mittbots.
I’m of the opinion that FR can move this election — if all FReepers pick ONE candidate, we have a chance.
Romney's Mormonism is a known quantity. It's his statism that people need to become aware of.
And busting on Cleon Skousen? He was just reflecting on the Mormon values at the time. Yeah, they were pro-slavery back then. So were some of my ancestors.
And, I think "The 5,000 Year Leap" is a great book. Does that make me a racist pro-slavery Mormon? No. Not any of the three.
You gotta extract the good, people. Find truth wherever you can, and discard the dross.
It WON'T be Romney. And if you start advocating that here, Jim WILL give you the zot. He's already done it to others who are actively campaigning for Mitt on FR.
I'm voting for Virgil Goode...and once Romney is nominated, I'm leaving the GoP party...
Big Tent, yes...Ever-expanding tent so that the GoP eventually pushes somebody to the left of Obama 15-25 years down the line? (Nope)
But in this event, if we choose the Moslem, that means the end of the US.
I've read the Old Testament...Dozens & dozens of times, God was provoked by His people...
Why? And why were they often temporarily "judged" (like being delivered over to Babylonians, etc.)?
The most common issue was idolatry being practiced by Jews.
That gets to God, who is a jealous God in the most perfect sense of that word. (Human jealousy is possessive when we have no right to possess another person; divine jealousy from a perfect being is protective over those He has a right to be as Maker)
If we have an overwhelming # of God's people (Christians) voting for Romney, who portends to be a future rival god of THE God...someone who thinks he will receive worship, praise, adoration, glory, prayer from creatures...[temple Mormons already think they are gods-in-embryo]...how do you think God will react to such elevation and endorsement of an idol?
You think He'll pour out blessings on that?
I resemble that remark.
I know it's not a solution but I cannot bring myself to vote for either one. There doesn't appear to be a solution to my dilemma except to rejoice in the fact that both evils cannot win.
God's still in charge and whichever evil we get is for His own purposes.
Proverbs 16 V. 4, K.J.V.:
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
“I’m voting for Virgil Goode...and once Romney is nominated, I’m leaving the GoP party.”
Ditto, Colo. This election season is going to be one slobbering shout out for the GOP-E and will be absolutely nauseating.
I’m a political junkie, conservative talk show radio listener and former Faux news viewer.
Week six of “NO FAUX” and it feels great. Only radio show allowed is Levin and I turn him off when he goes all in for Rom. Yesterday, I was cheering when he said that the Mittens team is “odd and they better get their act together”.
Leaving to spend the summer at my cabin in the woods(literally) and will continue this sabbatical.
As for the internet, that’s still on my list cuz I have control.
What are some of the rest of you going to do to get through this hellish next few months?
yes, but what do we do, seriously? I despise Romney, but he’s the lesser of two evils. Unless Palin (or even, let’s be honest, any non-Romney) comes along, the only other alternative is to sit it out and let O win...
No. But the curses will be (and ARE) on us with the Moslem O in power, right?
***But did Billie James Hargis?***
Billy went bust when it was found he was diddling both male and female students at his Tulsa university. I was living in Tulsa at the time and it was all over the news.
So too have I and the rest of your # 13 could not have been stated more succinctly and accurately.
I was frightened when it first became apparent that Romney was going to be the "R" nominee. After prayerful consideration I concluded that while it matters for us in the short term, for eternity I have my God and Savior and nothing, nothing can separate me from that.
God has a plan, Romney or Obama may be somewhere in that plan but the prospect no longer frightens me, it is His plan and even though we don't know what it is, He is Sovereign, the Great I Am and I trust Him with all my being.
Some may see this as a "defeatist" attitude, it is realism to me.
A Pastor friend of mine told me that in the Greek version where Jesus says, "I will never leave you nor forsake you", that the word "never" is repeated 4 times. That's emphasis"!
With Obama and the talk he is Muslim, that makes him a liar, I get it. But not with Romney. How is religious bigoty a conservative.
And presumably in the mountains (Mountain Mary). Isn't that astute of me? Have fun, wish I were there. I'm confined to the flat lands of Illinois.
Romney’s a RINO — for me it’s clear, whether he is Mormon or Evangelical or Baptist or Presbyterian or Catholic, he’s still a scumbag RINO. If we had a conservative Mormon, I’d have more to think about, but Mitt is so obviously scum that I don’t care what his religion is...
Shameful - and un-Christian.
Then why jump on the Morman bashing bandwagon?
I have far more concern about Obama’s Muslim upbringing and 20 years of listening to Rev. Wright’s racist theology than I do about Romney’s Mormonism.
You might be able to get 50% to go for a particularly conservative candidate. Who did you have in mind?
At the moment were on the “Let one thousand flowers bloom” phase; then the purges; then we select one leader.(/s)
Romney isn’t the lesser of two evils. Evil is evil under all conditions.
I’m thinking of one — Cain.
I didn’t jump on it here in this thread.
I’d be really worried, if Romney were linked to that Mormon nutcase and very powerful man, Harry Reid.
Harry Reid is pretty good evidence that conspiracy theories about Mormons are pretty worthless. The Mormons I’ve known personally are hard core Republicans, and as much as Hatch may not be ideal, the truth is that he’s generally been a pretty reliable moderate/conservative Republican during his time in Congress — one of Reagan’s biggest allies. It’s time for him to be replaced by a better option, but we shouldn’t lose perspective and consider him anything like Reid.
This reply was made back in January by P. Marlowe:
Temple recommend question #7 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
The shunning requirement clearly prohibits Romney from associating with ex-Mormons and all Christians who do not believe that Mormonism is Christian. And with Romney being a pro-abortion Mormon and most practicing Catholics and Evangelical Christians recognizing that Mormonism is a false religion, I would think that he will appoint either pro-Abortion Mormons (like Harry Reid) to judicial offices or he will appoint only Mormons, agnostics, atheists, lapsed Catholics and Unitarian type non-Catholics to the Judiciary.
Does anyone know whether or not Romney appointed any Conservative Bible-Believing Protestant or Practicing Catholic judges while he was governor of Massachusetts?
Or is that just a Rhetorical question?
Well, look out! The self-appointed FREEPER "bigot patrol" might accuse you of "bigotry" because of your Muslim/Rev. Wright Obama references here...
On second thought, I don't think they've deviated a single time from their open pattern of religious hypocrisy on that...so I think you're "safe."
MITT was in his THIRTIES when LDS, Inc. backed off of it's BLACK stance!
(Although much of it is STILL 'scripture'!)
"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.
The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.
This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."
Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.
Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.
2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'
Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'
August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:
(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)
1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,
"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."
We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.
According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.
Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:
"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.
The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."
(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).
When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:
"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."
When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."
(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)
Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.
I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.
At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parentson the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.
One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.
(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)
Goody for you!
Darned if I know!!
Poor jimmy; nothing one a one-track mind with his 3 minutes mantra...
Ma'am; we do this for a LOT longer than 3 minutes every day!
LDS.ORG is mighty wacko!
It is a heresy that spits in the face of GOD.
Skousen was a John Bircher.
And they VOTED for a hard left Reid.
He is a MORMON.
MORMONism trumps all politics for these folks.
Would you stop responding to me. I've heard it already ad nauseam
You have CHOSEN to participate in a PUBLIC discussion.
I have CHOSEN to respond.
You can CHOOSE to either IGNORE what I post, or plead some more.
Sorry but I also have a place in Colorado! :-)
Now I can point them to this post. THanks,
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