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Presbyterian Church’s Ordination of Gays Bittersweet {Reformed, always reforming}
uk progressive ^ | OCTOBER 21, 2011 4:45 PM | REV. IRENE MONROE

Posted on 10/26/2011 9:26:04 AM PDT by Cronos

Before returning to New England for the second time, I served two African American Presbyterian Churches. And during that time I never thought, two decades ago, that the entire church body would change its position on LGBTQ worshippers.

But a historic yet bittersweet moment happened on October 8th in the Presbyterian Church (USA).

And the moment didn’t happened without a long and arduous struggle against the church’s ecclesiastical heterosexism.

After decades of open struggle with the church’s recalcitrant attitude and discrimination against its lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ) worshippers who wanted to serve as pastors, elders or deacons, the Presbyterian Church (USA), known as the more liberal and tolerant branch of the denomination, finally conducted its first openly gay ordination.

...As a church that is borne out of a liberal Protestant Christian tradition, the Presbyterian Church’s problem with its LGBTQ worshippers is a history of how it not only broke the backs and souls of the many who wanted to serve, but also how the church recklessly discarded the gifts we bring.

...as a church that proudly touts itself as “reformed and always reforming,” when it came to all things LGBTQ prior to this recent Amendment, the church was not only losing its theological ground of being one that affirms diversity without divisiveness, but it was also losing its public face of inclusion.

(Excerpt) Read more at ukprogressive.co.uk ...


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: lesbyterian; paganchurchusa; pcusa; presbyterian
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"ecclesiastical heterosexism"???? We talking about the Presbtyerian Church here?

And then he says As a church that is borne out of a liberal Protestant Christian tradition, the Presbyterian Church’s problem with its LGBTQ worshippers is a history of how it not only broke the backs and souls of the many who wanted to serve, but also how the church recklessly discarded the gifts we bring.

1 posted on 10/26/2011 9:26:11 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

Another denomination throws the Bible under the bus.

Who’s left?


2 posted on 10/26/2011 9:31:43 AM PDT by July4 (Remember the price paid for your freedom.)
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To: Cronos

In other news, the PCUSA says Jesus is a “nice guy”, but wouldn’t go so far as to worship him. /s


3 posted on 10/26/2011 9:33:39 AM PDT by Dr. Thorne (Fall on your knees before Christ, your only salvation!)
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To: Cronos

ANYONE who belongs to a “church” that allows homo’s to “preach the word”, or “preach” homo sex is a okay, should remove themselves IMMEDIATELY.

If you need to be on your own for a while until you find a church that is Bible based, so be it.

The Lord will understand and walk with you, hand in hand, on your journey.


4 posted on 10/26/2011 9:38:43 AM PDT by NoGrayZone ("Get ready for an aberration of historic proportions" - Herman Cain)
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To: Cronos

The Church has a long history of accepting those who want to serve, regardless of their prior sins. Saul persecuted the Church, but he repented of his sinful actions, reformed his behavior, and made restitution to the Church community by serving God and the Christian community once he understood God’s Will. Many later saints also led less than saintly lives before reaching a point where they were willing to follow God. The change, and it is unacceptably huge, is that today’s “Christians” want to select which parts of God’s word to follow, which means they want to do as they wish, without constraint.

I assume the next step is not just to welcome ministers who have committed adultery in the past, but those who are proudly parading the “other woman” in front of the congregation as they serve, those who steal and brag about their plans to support the Church mission or their own hobbies through theft, those who bear false witness and deliver sermons on how they plan to get even with those who have slighted the Church or them personally through premeditated perjury. These alleged Christians have missed the point (or worse). God’s Will, as expressed in His Word should be supreme in our lives. To only follow scripture when it says to do what we would have done anyways is to make the entire Bible irrelevant to our lives.


5 posted on 10/26/2011 9:40:28 AM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: Cronos

This is something I have NEVER understood about “Gays” as Church members and “Gay activists” inside a religious denomination that they recognize does not agree with them?

To me its hypocritical, because it was never that there was no place at all where they could worship in some Congregation that would accept them? There were always “alternative” Churches who would, and before the “gay rights” movement, “Gays” always peacefully found those churches.

Why not just go there?

Its like saying: “I can’t identify with this place because this place won’t accept me.”

So, if you can’t identify with a place/organization because of its views, why is that its not up to you to leave, it’s up to them to change?

I have never understood that.


6 posted on 10/26/2011 9:41:41 AM PDT by Wuli
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To: July4
"Who’s left?"

None. The Scriptures never directed believers to form denominations or organizations. This is a bad holdover from the RCC which relies heavily upon "official organization". Find (or form) a group of biblically sound believers and fellowship in a home or business location and do not name your group. The word "church" was made up by the RCC and does not exist in Scripture. Ask yourself, what group did Paul belong to? Right, none except the body of all believers all over the world. You will be able to remove those who do comport with Scripture, yet close enough for solid fellowship.

7 posted on 10/26/2011 9:47:49 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: July4

Assembly of God, WELS, LCMS, Catholicism, Orthodoxy are strongly fighting against the pinkmafia


8 posted on 10/26/2011 9:48:03 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Cronos
Assembly of God, WELS, LCMS, Catholicism, Orthodoxy are strongly fighting against the pinkmafia

while pedophilia remains

9 posted on 10/26/2011 9:52:35 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Wuli
Ot's called homo-promo. Remember, they don't reproduce so they have to solicit.

I'm reminded of the 14 year old who was "supposedly" gay and committed suicide. Now, here's the problem....someone obviously solicited him and that person is still walking around...looking for another kid to pounce on.

Get with reality. They're predators.

10 posted on 10/26/2011 9:52:48 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: Cronos
a church that is borne out of a liberal Protestant Christian tradition, the Presbyterian Church’s...

Ahem, Calvin and Knox were certainly Protestant, but I don't think I would call them liberal.

11 posted on 10/26/2011 10:11:11 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Dr. Thorne
In other news, the PCUSA says Jesus is a “nice guy”, but wouldn’t go so far as to worship him. /s

You actually aren't far off. In 1973-74, the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) was formed after breaking away from this PC-USA heretical group... and the deity of Jesus Christ was one of the issues leading to that split.

So as to the question "who's left?" The PCA still stands, along with the OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian Church) and a few others. We in the PCA have continued to accept breakaway congregations from the PCUSA as they reach their own levels of intolerance with their national 'leadership.'

12 posted on 10/26/2011 10:12:33 AM PDT by alancarp (Liberals are all for shared pain... until they're included in the pain group.)
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To: Dutchboy88
The word "church" was made up by the RCC and does not exist in Scripture.

I think you need to develop this. Otherwise, you've stated something on its face easily refuted.

The word used in the Greek NT is "ekklesia". In Latin this is simply transliterated "ecclesia". The English word "church" derives this way (according to my Websters II):

[ME chirche < OE cirice < LGk kuriakon < Gk kuriakos, of the Lord < kurios, Lord]

Tyndale chose "congregation" rather than "church" in his 1526 Englisth NT translation. There is some unfortunate RCC baggage attached to "church", but the word means "assembly". And it is not uncommon for people to associate the meeting place with the assemblage, as inaccurate as that is. (This rhetorical devise is called metonymy which substitutes one word or phrase for another with which it is closely associated.)

So, the word "church" is not the issue, but the "concept" or meaning. I think what you intended to say is that there is no notion of a "universal" church with an official priesthood taught in the Bible. The Bible calls us "saints"/"called" (Romans 1), a "priesthood" (1 Peter 2) all those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, Jew or Gentile. All who believe are the "children of promise" according to Romans 4:16 and Galatians 4:28.

13 posted on 10/26/2011 10:44:53 AM PDT by nonsporting
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To: Dutchboy88
The word "church" was made up by the RCC and does not exist in Scripture. Ask yourself, what group did Paul belong to?

What? Really?

First off, yes: the church of Jesus Christ is the universal body of all redeemed believers saved by the substitutionary atonement of Christ thanks to the Holy Spirit's call. But the scriptures not only use the word 'church' in that universal context (Matt. 16:18), but also in the individual/local context (Rom. 16:27 and literally dozens of other places). Generally speaking, it's used to describe a local body of believers, though there was a main organization (which I'm about to mention).

Next: what group did Paul belong to? Clearly, he was trained, sent out by, and answered to the Church at Jerusalem. He then, of course, planted numerous new individual churches between there and Rome.

I believe you would subscribe to this next thought based on your writing, but scripture actually encourages groups of 'offical organizations' as both a means of helping organize and do all the necessary work and also preserving a protecting adherence to the scriptures. This practice goes back to Moses (see Exodus 18). This is why both deacons and elders are established within the New Testament. Clearly, the apostles filled that role as elders from Jerusalem. That would seem to be the purpose of your post: to protect the scriptures.

Now that being said, the extent that such leadership correctly performs such duties may be up for serious debate. Obviously the PC-USA has failed in that mission, and I would encourage all members of such congregations to leave that denomination in search of another that at least does a better job.

Look, no religious organization is perfect. It is the responsibility of those leaders to listen to criticism and make changes whenever the find themselves out of scriptural harmony (e.g., Paul correcting Peter - Gal. 2:14). It is also the responsibility of individuals to know the scriptures so they can know a heresy when it appears. I would argue that it is harder to see groups exercise self-correction in both tiny (congregational churches) and enormous (RCC) organizations for reasons that should be evident: power, special interest biases, and poor accountability. But no group is immune: they will all have their own 'style' or 'emphasis' biases. The best we can do is to do our servant work as best we can and humbly point out issues as they come up. The scriptures remain our guide for all of this, up to and including "remov[ing] those who do [not] comport with Scripture."

Sorry so long... wasn't exactly a soundbite-length set of ideas.

14 posted on 10/26/2011 10:56:23 AM PDT by alancarp (Liberals are all for shared pain... until they're included in the pain group.)
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To: nonsporting

Thanks for doing that ‘technical heavy lifting’ on the word origins!


15 posted on 10/26/2011 10:58:56 AM PDT by alancarp (Liberals are all for shared pain... until they're included in the pain group.)
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To: patlin

You wrote, “while pedophilia remains”[in the Catholic Church]

Some of the few Catholic priests were pedophiles, but most of the priests were having sex with boys and young men, aged 11 to 20. These priests are homosexuals. (Once read something that the percentage in the population of priests involved was less than school teachers involved in this activity; interesting but I can’t confirm.)

Pedophilia is sex with children before the children reach puberty (age 11-13?).

The media and defenders of homosexuality shouldn’t be allowed to label the homosexuals in the Catholic Church as pedophiles.


16 posted on 10/26/2011 11:07:09 AM PDT by RCFlyer
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To: nonsporting
"I think you need to develop this. Otherwise, you've stated something on its face easily refuted.

The word used in the Greek NT is "ekklesia". In Latin this is simply transliterated "ecclesia". The English word "church" derives this way (according to my Websters II):

[ME chirche < OE cirice < LGk kuriakon < Gk kuriakos, of the Lord < kurios, Lord]

Tyndale chose "congregation" rather than "church" in his 1526 Englisth NT translation. There is some unfortunate RCC baggage attached to "church", but the word means "assembly"."

You have set out the very argument; thank you for saving me the time. Tyndale's view that the "assembly" is not a trademarked name (the way "Church" implies), but rather simply a congregation or gathering is the very problem to which I refer. RCC morphed the concept into their organization, and killed Tyndale for attempting to free the slaves.

Check Acts; the "ekklesia" was also the mob uprising against Paul, helping to establish the idea that there was not a brand understanding by the writers of the NT.

No, I intended to say exactly what I said. There is no such thing as a branded "Church" in view by the Apostles. They simply were referring to the gatherings in homes, businesses, public centers during those early years. Rome hijacked this simplicity in order to enslave the disciples under their tragic cult-like control.

Gatherings in homes are just as much a part of the universal ekklesia of Jesus Christ as any other...perhaps moreso. The absence of sacerdotalism, cultish rituals, pergatory, indulgences, mariolatry, idolatry (icon veneration), Sainthood (canonizing), papalism, and a ton other background noise actually sets them above the long-ago disqualified RCC. Most of the other "denominations" of "protesting" groups have unfortunately followed their lead and wandered off into the weeds, too.

But, you are absolutely dead-on with your definition of the children of promise. Those who were elected before the foundation of the world, found in Him not having a righteousness derived from the Law, those are the Body of Christ, wherever they may gather to be taught and celebrate Christ, alone.

17 posted on 10/26/2011 11:12:13 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Cronos

I kind of threw up in my throat while reading the whole story.

The Presbyterian USA church should take this to heart:

Romans 1:18-32

God’s Wrath Against Mankind

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


Not everything here applies, but a lot does. This is the direction that the USA church and many other protestant denominations are heading, IMHO.


18 posted on 10/26/2011 11:13:26 AM PDT by A. Patriot (Have we lost our Republic? Do the majority of Americans care?)
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To: patlin

And of course your particular sub-cult rejects that Jesus is God, rejects the Trinity and rejects Christianity. The PCUSA hasn’t gone that far yet.


19 posted on 10/26/2011 11:15:44 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: nonsporting; alancarp; Dutchboy88; Natural Law

Dutchboy88’s posts are generally like that — statements with no facts behind them, rather a refusal of facts


20 posted on 10/26/2011 11:18:40 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Unam Sanctam

true — expect the pinkmafia to twist everything, like statements that there is no such thing as a “church” in the bible.


21 posted on 10/26/2011 11:20:57 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: alancarp

Ping to #17.

You did not read my original post, either. The answer is, “None.” No denominations left which are biblical. Further, there are no “denominations” described or prescribed in the Scriptures. As noted, the word “church” is simply a made-up term to brand organizations which claim to be representations of the Body of Christ. I find no support for this in the Scriptures (NT), and thus find no reason to manufacture a group out of whole cloth.

And, no, Paul was often sent out from believers in Antioch. Check the text. And, nothing resembles physical Israel in the New Covenant, my FRiend. That is, unless you wish to add sacraficial animals, the priesthood (the RCC morphing), Holy Days, certain cloth, food restrictions (7th Day), and other Mosaic Law matters. Jer. 31. A new day has dawned and Organizations are not part of the story.


23 posted on 10/26/2011 11:25:43 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

Catholics are still standing firm but I don’t expect you to report this.


24 posted on 10/26/2011 11:29:07 AM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: Theo
That you take glee in pointing out the heresy of churches other than your own reveals your lack of faith in Christ, and your abundance of faith in Rome.

And when Protestant do the same thing in reverse, what does that reveal about them?

25 posted on 10/26/2011 11:29:07 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Theo

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


26 posted on 10/26/2011 11:29:50 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Cronos

Look for those Evelyn Woods Reading Dynamics courses in your stocking this year.


27 posted on 10/26/2011 11:30:07 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Dutchboy88

Thanks but don’t need them. Perhaps we can send you an encyclopedia to check facts before posting?


29 posted on 10/26/2011 11:36:06 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: BenKenobi
"Catholics are still standing firm but I don’t expect you to report this."

I'm actually not reporting anything here. I was commenting on a report that some kind of debauched Presbyterian cult ordained homosexuals. The question was raised, are there any denoms left, and I answered "no".

The RCC has long ago disqualified itself for reasons other than embracing homosexuality, but this might be coming soon to a town near you. This from "On Faith" website: This new analysis paints a clear portrait of Catholics that may be surprising to some: across a range of issues regarding rights for gay and lesbian Americans, Catholics are more supportive than the general population and are more supportive than any other Christian group.

Yes, standing firm, my FRiend...in the mud.

30 posted on 10/26/2011 11:38:36 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Theo

“You are so insecure about your faith in Rome, Cronos, that you are always on the attack. That you take glee in pointing out the heresy of churches other than your own reveals your lack of faith in Christ, and your abundance of faith in Rome.”

You think he’s happy? I see no problem with him reporting apostasy where it erupts. This way those who are a member of this church are aware of the changes that are happening to them.


31 posted on 10/26/2011 11:39:21 AM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: Cronos
"Perhaps we can send you an encyclopedia to check facts before posting?"

Waiting for the errors you found.

32 posted on 10/26/2011 11:42:56 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Religion Moderator

Thank you. And I expect you to rebuke Roman Catholics when they attack me personally. It happens all too often.


33 posted on 10/26/2011 11:43:14 AM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: Theo; Cronos
Both of you, stop making this thread "about" each other - that is also "making it personal."

Return to the issues.

35 posted on 10/26/2011 11:48:56 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Dutchboy88

Simple — your post saying “ekklesia” isn’t in scripture. And of course, if anyone runs through all your posts, there are plenty. btw, Encyclopedia Britannica is also online — do refer there if you wish.


36 posted on 10/26/2011 11:50:34 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Theo
oh, I'm not making it personal -- like your post 28 did. I just point out how your post is disingenuous. How you are as a person I don't care -- do note that your post is "making it personal", you've been warned, so do take note.

Alternatively, you could go to the closed threads (which one, the "anything but Christianity caucus"?) -- thin-skinned folks are urged to go there. Enjoy.

37 posted on 10/26/2011 11:50:59 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Religion Moderator; Theo

good point, please could you delete the posts by Theo and responses — namely 22, 28, 34? Thank you!


38 posted on 10/26/2011 11:52:46 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: RCFlyer

sexual perversion by any label is still sexual perversion, period


39 posted on 10/26/2011 11:52:57 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Dutchboy88
Yes, I did read it - that was the point of my attempt at an answer. I also said "Look, no religious organization is perfect", which agrees with you in principle.

Yes, ALL denominations are the result of break-offs from the original church. At some point, somebody thought "hey, these guys are wrong" are were unable to achieve a satisfactory correction. Are denominations scriptural, per se? No, but I'll bet that every one of them believed at the outset that they were trying to reform the main body they broke away from, and regretted having to do so. You could argue that Christ himself was such a reformer as he railed against the corruption of the Jewish leadership of the day (Matt. 23).

Paul was indeed originally sent out from the church at Jerusalem (Acts 11:22 - sent to Antioch). Never did I say (or even imply) a Judaism connection. Please do not put words onto my post that are not there.

My PCA denomination often actually has signs posted in front of their main local buildings reading something like "Meeting place of the _____ (name of church body)". We do understand what the 'church' is: a group of believers, and not a building or organization.

40 posted on 10/26/2011 11:53:09 AM PDT by alancarp (Liberals are all for shared pain... until they're included in the pain group.)
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To: Cronos
"Simple — your post saying “ekklesia” isn’t in scripture. And of course, if anyone runs through all your posts, there are plenty. btw, Encyclopedia Britannica is also online — do refer there if you wish."

Ping to #17

We'll go slow for you.

41 posted on 10/26/2011 11:56:51 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Cronos
of course only one who does not understand the "manifestation" as defined by YHVH in Torah & the Prophets would reply with ridicule & criticism in order to justify the heresy they follow
42 posted on 10/26/2011 11:59:02 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Dutchboy88

“The RCC has long ago disqualified itself for reasons other than embracing homosexuality?

Tell me sir, do you or do you not support contraception>


43 posted on 10/26/2011 12:06:30 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: alancarp
"Yes, ALL denominations are the result of break-offs from the original church. At some point, somebody thought "hey, these guys are wrong" are were unable to achieve a satisfactory correction. Are denominations scriptural, per se? No, but I'll bet that every one of them believed at the outset that they were trying to reform the main body they broke away from, and regretted having to do so. You could argue that Christ himself was such a reformer as he railed against the corruption of the Jewish leadership of the day (Matt. 23)."

Jesus did not rail against the corruption of the Jewish leadership for the same reasons that denominations are not biblical. The Pharisees, Saducees, Priests, Sribes, etc. were focused on a misapprehension of the message of the Scriptures. They believed God wanted Jews to behave and make up the difference with sacrifices. That God was generally happy with them (after all, they were the "chosen race", right?). These men fabricated hundreds of ways to "accomplish" the Law. Read the Mishna, Midrashim.

That they were irretrivably lost, broken beyond repair, not seeking God, dead in their trespasses and sins never dawned on them in spite of the message of the prophets (Is). Their incorrect view of the real need for Messiah is quite different than groups creating organizations with brand names.

And, originally (if you insist) Paul was "sent" by God from Damascus (Galatians). There was no "official ordination" or any such thing by a group. That the various towns recognized what God was doing is a far cry from being a "member" of an Organization called the First Church of Jerusalem, part of Central Palestine Orthodox New Covenant Accepters of Jesus from Nazareth Holy Spirit Filled Believers Denomination. Please do not put words into the Scriptures that are not there.

44 posted on 10/26/2011 12:17:44 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Cronos

Sola Scriptura’s bitter fruit strikes.


45 posted on 10/26/2011 12:20:00 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: BenKenobi
"Tell me sir, do you or do you not support contraception"

?? Tell me sir, do you eat donuts on Tuesday?

46 posted on 10/26/2011 12:21:44 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: BenKenobi

“... contraception” — you mean like Natural Family Planning (NFP)?

Yes, I know it’s explained as though it’s a tool for helping married couples know when they’re most fertile, so they are more likely to become pregnant. But in reality, Roman Catholics use NFP (or the rhythm method, which is essentially the same) to avoid becoming pregnant. In effect, through NFP Roman Catholics practice contraception, to avoid conception.


47 posted on 10/26/2011 12:23:04 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Dutchboy88

The Church predates the Bible. St. Paul helped establish the Catholic/Orthodox episcopate.

There wasn’t an agreed upon New Testament until over 300 years after Jesus ascended to heaven. So what did the faithful do without their King James Bible?


48 posted on 10/26/2011 12:23:56 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: Dutchboy88

It’s a simple question Dutchboy.

Do you, or do you not support contraception?


49 posted on 10/26/2011 12:25:44 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: rzman21

No, this is not the fruit of Sacred Scripture, but the fruit of sin and the perverting of God’s Word.

You’ll notice that those who hold to Sola Scriptura are denouncing what this denomination is doing.

(How someone can hold such disdain for Holy Scripture boggles the mind ...)


50 posted on 10/26/2011 12:26:26 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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