Posted on 07/08/2011 7:56:10 PM PDT by topher
Sir, you continue to fling unfounded libels. I am adamant that there is nothing in Masonry that demands anything less than total devotion to Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life, the only Name by which we may be saved, the Door to Salvation, the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for His sheep, etc, if that is how you believe God to be. That happens to be how I believe God to be.
Some Masons do not believe this. Most of them are called ‘Jews’. You might have heard of them. Some others are called ‘Unitarians’. They’re also pretty familiar to those even meagerly educated in religious variety, so I assume you know about them as well. There are even Muslim Masons (not very many) and again, that would be a Monophysite faction within Masonry. There are Nestorians, Copts, and so on. The idea is not to frame secular brotherhood in specific religious terms but to encourage monotheist religion among all men.
Masonry is a fraternity which encourages friendship, morality and brotherly love among all men who willingly and continuously profess a belief in a personal God. It is not a Church. It has no religious doctrine. It is a ridiculous waste of bandwidth to continue to assert that it does, though for some, no amount of correction will ever suffice.
And it was the Church which began the assault on Masonry, not the other way around. If there is hostility it is on the part of the institutional Church, which is prayerfully infallible in matters of faith and morals but has proven herself repeatedly ignorant and incompetent on just about any other subject unless carefully framed from within the appeal to faith and the subjection of all to God (as in Rerum Novarum, for instance). Masonry is a secular organization made up of religious men. We offer prayers just as prayers are offered before City Council meetings and for exactly the same reason.
Oh, and by the way, whenever I offer prayer, I manage to frame it in Trinitarian terms and at the same time remain within the constraints to avoid sectarian specificity and to enunciate Masonic moral principles.
Give over and devote your copious energies for dispute to Islamic fanatics, who are the actual clear and present threat you seem to think Masons are.
The Masons are the ones who have given credence, power, and authority to Muslims in the interest of furthering their worldly kingdom.
That's just fabulous. I wonder how God must feel for your gracious humble effort to communicate with Him after you are focusing on how to avoid any dogmatic specificity and in primary obedience to Masonic moral principles. It must be as if the person thinking the prayer is focusing on anything but what He provides. /s
Your post utterly lacks charity and is totally immune to any honest discussion. This is not 1315 (when the Church was coerced by the French King into torturing and eventually judicially murdering the Templars). Live in the Middle Ages if you must but I leave it to you.
Goodbye.
I WROTE:- ...”Several accounts, more or less differing in detail, and generally remarkable for their want of accuracy, have already been published.1 The most authentic appears to be the one issued at Cork, with the authority of the family, in 1811. Although these different accounts vary considerably in the description of the manner in which Miss St. Leger witnessed the secret ceremonial carried on in the Lodge,
THE MAIN FACT OF HER BEING MADE A MASON REMAINS UNDISPUTED....
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/aldworth.html
A COPY OF HER INITIATION...
http://www.genealogy.com/users/s/t/l/Rosemary-Stlegermay/PHOTO/0022photo.html
THE FAMILY BLUEBLOOD LINEAGE...
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Bios/AnthonyStLeger1.htm
They don’t follow the rules.
It is illegitimate.
So is the so “1st woman Mason”.
They and we do not make our own rules. They violated the laws/ by laws of their lodge and that of all other lodges.
She is a fraud.”
[Elizabeth] Aldworth’s regalia is on display at the Masonic Hall, 27 Tuckey Street, Cork City, Ireland where a large portion of the Masonic artefacts in the Dining Room are set aside in her honour. In use in the Lodge room to date is the chair with overhead canopy Aldworth is reputed to have used in Masonic Tenure.
http://www.munsterfreemason.com/The_Lady_Freemason.htm
http://www.munsterfreemason.com/Photo_Library.htm
I’ve given you a picture of her in full regalia. I’ve given you her Formal Initiation Declaration Certificate which occurred 19 yrs BEFORE the foundation of the Grand Lodge of Ireland. I’ve now given you the Cork Freemason museum which houses her freemasonry regalia. I also don’t believe for a second that she was the first female freemason! (there’s also information which indicates there were lodges in 1688 within Munster which is the province of Cork, Co. Cork. The name Munster can be traced back to the name St. Legis in it’s orginal forms in Munster/Normandy.)
This Anglo-Irish family are a very well-known name in the history books of Ireland. Her father was the Lord Deputy of Ireland who “worked hard” for King Henry VIII. I won’t go into her father’s role in the Dissolution and Theft of the Irish Monasteries and his friendship with Cromwell... What’s interesting is why this family felt the need to become lodgers in their own home and what did she see that made her faint...The bluebloods also have different “practices” than the lower class’. Just read about the sexual-diviancy of the Pre-Raphaelites, Cambridge Apostles, Keynesians, Fabians, and so on...(can’t substantiate that they were ALL freemasons nor that they were ALL diviants but many were).
PS: I get my Freemason information from bonafide Freemason Sites and also History especially the pedigree of the “bluebloods” or the uppercrusts. Interesting to see from whence they came, the skullduggery they did, and the rewards they received. None of them died poor but rarely got/get to retire early. The same traditions and carnage continues today from their decendants.
I invite you to study the sources presented, and continue to deny that she wasn’t a Freemason.
Note: Bluebloods do NOT follow rules. They make them.
“It was the fact that Lenin’s grandmother [Anna] attended Lodge Meetings. I thought that meant she was a member.”
She most likely was one. It would take a lot of research and unfortunately the Russian language would stymie the search.
CHARIS, the second best word in Scripture. Too bad so many confuse charity as being absent grace.
I would not be among them.
Texas Fossil WROTE: -
‘Because someone states something in a book and releases a video on the web Does Not make it fact.’
‘Like relying on “Fact Check” hee hee hee’
‘I know they never convince anyone on this forum to agree with them, unless they already are of that mindset. So, I suspect the only purpose they serve here is to divide us in the effort of opposing the Lefties who want to enslave us.’
‘Total Nonsense.’
‘It is not and never has been an accepted practice....’
‘This whole line of discussion is absolute nonsense.’
‘I think those who post this type of dribble only do it to excite discussion. If they choose their normal topic of discussion everyone avoids it. So they resort to stirring the pot.’
‘Careful what you imply when you criticize other organizations.’
‘You seem to think that a single unapproved event in the early 1700’s reflects the norms of a group you dislike.’
‘You have no first hand knowledge of the subject you hammer. You make all kinds of unsubstantiated accusations about the motive and character of those you criticize and expect everyone to adopt your view. It will not happen.’
Vendome WROTE:
‘I was agreeing with you and discounting Bronxville’s assertion.’
‘People like this and Topher like to cite anomalous incidents, dubious sources and total outright fruads (sic) and claim them as facts or proof a concept exists.’
‘(hmmm...that didn’t come out well. Oh well...)’
‘Wait!......Are we a secret organization with secrets? /s’
‘I do not recognize her as a Mason as her entire experience was born of fraud and further revelation of arts, parts, etc.’
‘It is a malpractice for it to have occurred and against Free Masonry by laws of any lodge laws and by laws.’
‘They have been “programmed” to believe only what they are told. Never question “authority’.
bronxville WROTE on FreeMason Elizabeth St. Leger-Aldworth
Mrs. Elizabeth Aldworth 1693 - 1775
Elizabeth Aldworth, known as ‘The Lady Freemason’. Born The Hon. Elizabeth St. Leger, daughter of Lord Doneraile of Doneraile Court, in 1693 and married in 1713 to Richard Aldworth, Esq.
From a narrative published by the family in 1811 it appears that, upon secretly observing the first two degrees of a lodge at labour in her father’s home, she was discovered and, after discussion, initiated in the Entered Apprentice and Fellowcraft Degree.
The initiation was in 1712 to Lodge No44 at Doneraile Court.
http://www.freemasoncollection.com/3-PORTRAITS-OF-FAMOUS-MASONS/aldworth-elisabeth-saint-leger-portraits-of-famous-masons.php
‘THE MAIN FACT OF HER BEING MADE A MASON REMAINS UNDISPUTED’....
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/aldworth.html
A COPY OF HER INITIATION...
http://www.genealogy.com/users/s/t/l/Rosemary-Stlegermay/PHOTO/0022photo.html
THE FAMILY BLUEBLOOD LINEAGE...
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Bios/AnthonyStLeger1.htm
MASONIC REGALIA AT THE CORK MUSEUM...
http://www.munsterfreemason.com/The_Lady_Freemason.htm
http://www.munsterfreemason.com/Photo_Library.htm
Your refusal to accept reality does not alter reality.
Your refusal to accept reality does not alter reality. The banning of women only holds for Anderson’s Constitutions (the so-called Enlightenment period, a period when inversions were first notably initiated) as there’s no such explicit ban against women in the Old Charges.
FreeMasonry history acknowledges Elizabeth St. Leger as a FreeMason - that you personally don’t is of little consequence.
I can also backup my comments in post #89 from Masonic writings, Historical writings, and pedigree. When I get time I’ll also defend that vilified post.
Meanwhile...
A letter from George Washington, Mount Vernon, October 24, 1798 - To Reverend G. W. Snyder:
...’It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am.’.... http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=WasFi36.xml&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=388&division=div1
“I wonder how God must feel for your gracious humble effort to communicate with Him after you are focusing on how to avoid any dogmatic specificity and in primary obedience to Masonic moral principles. It must be as if the person thinking the prayer is focusing on anything but what He provides. /s”
Astute observation. I’ve noticed in reading Masonic writers that they will even throw Christianity, even St Augustine, under the bus to make their case for FreeMasonry.
St. Paul warned us about the spritual forces that are aligned against us when he wrote about the “mystery of iniquity” (lawlessness).
Thess 2:4-12; 1 Thess 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18,22
St Augustine, City of God Book XX explains it:
http://lasalettejourney.blogspot.com/2009/10/st-augustine-city-of-god-book-xx.html
Still nonsense.
No signs or tokens.
My books are written in code but I can’t decifer the response here.
But, I will say this:
Still rubbish and would not/does not pass any examination.
Generally, to be accepted for initiation as a regular Freemason, a candidate must: Be a man who comes of his own free will. Believe in a Supreme Being (which is left to open interpretation by the candidate, but they can not be an atheist). Be at least of minimum age from 18–25 years old depending on the jurisdiction. In some jurisdictions the son of a Mason, known as a “Lewis,” may join at an earlier age than others). Be of good morals, and of good reputation. Be of sound mind and body (lodges had in the past denied membership to a man because of a physical disability; however, now, if a potential candidate says a disability will not cause problems, it will not be held against him). Be free-born (or “born free”, i.e., not born a slave or bondsman). This is entirely an historical holdover, and can be interpreted in the same manner as it is in the context of being entitled to write a will. Some jurisdictions have removed this requirement. Be capable of furnishing character references, as well as one or two references from current Masons, depending on jurisdiction. There is plenty of evidence that Lev Davidovich Bronstein, alias Leon Trotsky, became a Freemason through his friend Alexander Parvus. He also maintained contacts with B’nai B’rith, a Jewish Masonic order, which aided Jewish “revolutionaries” in Russia. Leon Trotsky became a member of the Jewish Masonic order B’nai B’rith in New York, in January 1917. (Yuri Begunov, Secret Forces in the History of Russia, St. Petersburg, 1995, pp. 138-139.) He was already a member of the Misraim-Memphis freemasonry. He also belonged to the Shriner Lodge, which only Freemasons of the 32nd and higher degree were allowed to join. Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Alexander Kerensky, Béla Kun, and other leading politicians have also been members among these select few. (Professor Johan von Leers, The Power behind the President, Stockholm, 1941, p. 148.) Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov alias Lenin, Zinoviev, Radek and Sverdlov also belonged to B’nai B’rith. Researchers who are specialised in the activities of B’nai B’rith, including Schwartz-Bostunich, confirmed this information. (Viktor Ostretsov, “Freemasonry, Culture and Russian History”, Moscow, 1999, pp. 582-583.) Together with Trotsky, Lenin took part in the International Masonic Conference in Copenhagen in 1910. (Franz Weissin, “Der Weg zum Sozialismus” / “The Road to Socialism”, Munich, 1930, p. 9.) The socialization of Europe was on the agenda. Alexander Galpern, then secretary of the Masonic Supreme Council in Russia, confirmed in 1916 that there were Bolsheviks among the freemasons. I can further mention Nikolai Sukhanov (actually Himmer) and N. Sokolov. According to Galpern’s testimony, the freemasons also gave Lenin financial aid to his revolutionary activity. This was certified by a known Freemason, Grigori Aronson, in his article “Freemasons in Russian Politics”, published in the Novoye Russkoye Slovo (New York, 8-12 October 1959). The historian Boris Nikolayevsky also mentioned this in his book “The Russian Freemasons and the Revolution” (Moscow, 1990). As far as Lenin’s mother Maria (maiden name Blank), she was a daughter of a rich landowner. Maria Blank’s father, Israel, was born in 1802 in Staro-konstantinovo in the province of Volynia. Lenin’s mother spoke Yiddish, German and Swedish but whether or not she had knowledge of Masonic teachings is harder to prove. Nikolai Svitkov’s “About Freemasonry in Russian Exile”, published in Paris in 1932 and according to him, the most important Freemasons from Russia were: Vladimir Ulyanov-Lenin; Lev/Leiba Bronstein-Leon Trotsky; Grigori Zinoviev (Gerson Radomyslsky); Leon Kamenev (actually Leiba Rosenfeld); Karl Radek (Tobiach Sobelsohn); Maxim Litvinov (Meyer Hennokh Wallakh); Yakov Sverdlov (Yankel-Aaron Solomon)the man who ordered the execution of the Tsar and his family; L. Martov (Yuli Zederbaum); Maxim Gorky (Alexei Peshkov); among others... There is little doubt that Freemasonry is a satanic secret fraternal society that began among Protestant sects and is bent on the destruction of the Roman Catholic church. In Morals and Dogma, his classic guide to the 33 rituals of the Scottish Rite Lodge, Albert Pike, Sovereign Grand Commander, admitted that the Jewish Kabbalah (or Cabala) is the “true philosophy” and “the basis” on which Masonry was founded and he said: “Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not!” [Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, p. 321, 19th Degree of Grand Pontiff] “DEUS MEUMQUE JUS”. Freemasonry’s teachings and practices also use syncretism which is the blending of different religious beliefs into a unified whole. This is shown in Masonry’s religious rituals, which gather men of many faiths around a common altar, and place all religious writings along side the Bible on the Masonic altar. As far as whether women can become masons the answer is no because they are not males, but there is the Order of the Eastern Star for any woman who must be the daughter, widow, wife, sister, or mother of a Master Mason in order to join. The General Grand Chapter headquarters, the International Temple, is located in the Dupont Circle neighborhood of Washington, D.C., in the former Perry Belmont Mansion. Clara Bartow was a member who when becoming a member of the Order said: “My father was a Mason; to him it was a religion, and for the love and honor I bear him, I am glad to be connected with anything like this.” So women can not become Master Masons but their equivalent as females is Worthy Matron. Masonic groups for English speakers fall in either of two categories; York or Scottish Rite freemasonry. York Rite Freemasonry has three separate and autonomous bodies: Chapter, Council, and Commandery. Scottish Rite Masonry has four: Lodge of Perfection, Chapter of Rose Croix, Council of Kadosh, and Consistory. No Masonic teaching has any connections to the Knights Templar who had to be of noble birth and who did not do any menial work with their hands. Freemasonry is derived from the guilds of skilled stone cutter workers, without a drop of noble blood, that arose from obscure origins in the late 16th to early 17th century so it does not have anything to do with the fictitious story about Hiram Abiff or any esoteric teachings of Hermes Trismegistus. You better than anyone know that Grand Lodges and Grand Orients are independent of each other and sovereign bodies that govern Masonry in a given country, a state, or a jurisdiction. There is no single governing body that presides over worldwide Freemasonry and connections between different jurisdictions depend solely on mutual recognition. Canon 2335 of the 1917 Roman Catholic code stated clearly that any Catholic who joined a Masonic organization or some other, similar group that plotted against the Church or against civil authority, incurred excommunication. The Church’s interpretation of Freemasonry’s main purpose was pretty clear: it was an association that plots against Catholicism. Membership in it was, therefore, obviously inconsistent with being a Catholic. The Code of Canon Law that was promulgated in 1983 by Pope John Paul II replaced the earlier code of 1917. This is what led to the confusion you talk about, however, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a Declaration on this very subject in 1983, the same year that the new Code of Canon Law was released. This document provides a theological interpretation of canon 1374. This Declaration asserts clearly that “the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged, since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.” So please tell any of your Roman Catholic friends who say that they are Masonic members about this. As a matter of fact the Knights of Columbus is the one of two institutions open to Roman Catholics, the other is The Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta, headquartered in Via Condotti, Rome,Italy, which is the only legitimate Order of Malta.
I was no sure as to what you meant: To the best of my knowledge there are none in Mexico. I have no way of being sure as to what you meant, whether you referred as beign atheists which it can not possibly be because it is necessary to believe in a Supreme Being in order to become a Mason or if you meant that there were no Masons in Mexico.
The Masonic presence in Mexico was very well known since the 18th century there and was mostly brought by the French, way before Napoleon III’s fiasco to install Archduke Maximilian of Austria as Mexican emperor.
Today there is a York Grand Lodge of Mexico with the following lodges
TOLTEC LODGE No. 1.
ANAHUAC LODGE No. 3
GUADALAJARA LODGE No. 5
MONTERREY LODGE No. 13
CUERNAVACA LODGE No. 23
WMEXICO LODGE OF RESEARCH No. 35 AXIXIC LODGE No. 31 A. VON HUMBOLDT LODGE No. 26. INACTIVE LOGIA AZTECA No. 22 LOGIA MORELOS No. 27 SUSPENDED LOGIA ATEMAJAC No. 29 LOGIA XOCHICALCO No. 32 LOGIA ZAMORA No. 33 LOGIA PUERTO VALLARTA No. 34 LOGIA ARMONÍA No. 36 The York Rite bodies in Mexico are divided in three, as recognized internationally. The Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of Mexico (Gran Capítulo de Masones del Real Arco de México)
The Grand Council of Cryptic Masons of Mexico (Gran Consejo de Masones Crípticos de México)
Grand Commandery of Mexico (Gran Comandancia de los Estados Unidos Mexicanos)
The Confederation of Regular Grand Lodges of the United Mexican States. This confederation includes 29 Grand Lodges of the 31 states that constitute the United Mexican States: Aguascalientes, “Profesor Edmundo Games Orozco”
Baja California,
Campeche,
Chiapas,
Chihuahua, “Cosmos”,
Coahuila, “Benito Juárez”,
Colima, “Sur Oueste”,
Durango, “Guadalupe Victoria”
Guanajuato,
Guerrero,
Hidalgo,
Jalisco, “Occidental Mexicana”,
Estado de Mexico,
Michoacán, “Lázaro Cárdenas”,
Morelos,
Nayarit,
Nuevo León,
Oaxaca, “Benito Juárez García”,
Puebla, “Benemérito Ejército de Oriente”,
Querétaro,
Quitana Roo, “Andrés Quintana Roo”,
San Luis Potosi, “Soberana e Independiente del Potosí”,
Sinaloa,
Sonora, “Pacífico”,
Tabasco, “Restauración”,
Tamaulipas,
Veracruz, “Unidad Mexicana”,
Yucatán, “La Oriental Peninsular,
Zacatecas, “Jesús González Ortega”.
you need some paragraphs there...
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