The last son of Joseph Smith understood the power of doubt [Real Mormonism]

Ogden Standard-Examiner ^ | July 6, 2011 | Doug Gibson

[1010RD]

saved by grace through faith alone

That's utterly unBiblical.

[Elsie]

God calls on us to have faith, not facts.

God calls on us to have brains, not mush.

---

Luke 1:1-4

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

[Elsie]

Has anyone ever been logicked to the Gospel?

Thousands, if not MILLIONS, have been FACTED out of MORMONism.

[Elsie]

Twaddling in the minutiae is simple wallowing.

Sorry, but the heresy that is MORMONism is NOT a small thing.

[Elsie]

This is not an official Web site of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The content of this page may not be copied, published, or redistributed without the prior written consent of FAIR. The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR) is a non-profit organization formed in late 1997 for the purpose of defending the Church. FAIR is staffed completely by volunteers, all of whom are dedicated to defending the Church. FAIR is not owned, controlled by, or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief, or practice.

 

 

OOPs!

[Elsie]

I don’t know why you ping me to these posts, but I presume it is that you and your posse continue to seek the light.

We like to let you illustrate orthodox MORMON thinking.

---

Every Christian knows that if you don’t want to believe something you won’t.

Every MORMON knows that if you want to convince someone of something; it had better be something that they know nothing, or have conflicting ideas about.

[Elsie]

That's utterly unBiblical.

It appears that you are utterly wrong.

John 6:28-29 (niv)

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

[Elsie]

2 Peter 2:1-3  1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.  2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.  3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR,
and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice.

[Elsie]

(The PREVIEW looks good...)

---

Version Number When Published Brief Description	Age/Year	Evil Power	Pillar of Light or Fire	Number of Personages	Father	Son	Question: Join What Sect	Remarks
Official Version,  Mormon scripture,  Pearl of Great Price p. 47, 48, 1974 Ed.	Age 14 1820

Yes	Yes Light	2	Yes	Yes	Join None	Lucy, Hyrum, Samuel, Sopronia Join Presbyterian Church 1820
Paper by Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons March, April 1842	Same as item 1 above
Letter from Joseph Smith to John Wentworth,  editor Chicago Democrat 1841 account Published March 1,1842	None given	No	No	2	?	?	No question, told all incorrect	Joseph Smith's First Vision by Milton V. Backman Jr. Bookcraft, Appendix D. Ensign, Jan.1985, p. 16
				Both looked the Same They spoke
Dictated by Joseph Smith, in hand of  James Mulholland, 1838	Same as item 1 above, first known account of the official version.							Ensign,  Jan. 1985 p. 14
Joseph Smith's diary of 1835, Recorded by  Warren Cowdery  Nov. 9, 1835, conversation of Joseph Smith with Joshua	Joseph, about 14	No Tongue seemed swollen; heard someone; at first couldn't pray	Yes Fire	One, and then another like unto the first	?	?	No question, told sins are forgiven, Jesus Christ is the Son of God	Joseph Smith's First Vision  by Milton V. Backman Jr. Bookcraft, Appendix B
				Second spoke.
				Saw many angels
Messenger & Advocate by Oliver Cowdery supervised by  Joseph Smith  Feb. 1835  p. 77-79;  Also see Dec. 1834 p. 43	Joseph 17 1823	No	Yes	1	No	No	No question told sin are forgiven	Note on pg. 78 that the revival was in 1823 (NOT 1820) so this must be the First Vision.
				Messenger from God
Dictated by Joseph Smith  to F. G. Williams Summer to Nov. 1832	Joseph 14 or 16	No	Yes	1	No	Yes	No question, told "None doeth good", sins forgiven	Joseph Smith's First Vision  by Milton V. Backman Jr. Bookcraft, Appendix A
				Saw Lord (Jesus) he "spoke"
Written by Joseph Smith, 1832 diary	Joseph 15	No	Yes	1	No	Yes	No question, told sins forgiven all do no good	Ensign,  Dec. 1984 pgs. 24-26  Jan. 1985 pg. 11
				Saw the Lord Jesus Christ (said He was crucified)
Early Church leaders  B. Young,  G. A. Smith,  J. Taylor	Joseph 15	No	No	1	No	No	Join None	Journal of Discourses, 2:171; 18:239; 13:77,78; 20:167; 12:333,334
				Saw an angel, and asked the angel

 

[Elsie]

ARRRGH!

[Ditter]

Some of us don't stay on one particular forum, instead we stay on ‘comments’ where we see every comment posted on every forum. More interesting that way.

[reaganaut]

Through prayer, though, I can know what is and isn’t true.

Faith is the key, not facts. Feelings, not logic are what converts one to Christ.

- - - - - -
Knowing what is ‘true’ based upon your prayer is feelings (very Mormon).

Mormonism isn’t based upon facts, it is based upon feelings. And we are never told in the bible to rely on feelings, rather we are to STUDY and look at facts.

[reaganaut]

Look to the doctrine. That’s the Fruit.

- - - -
The fruit of Mormonism is rotten to the core.

[reaganaut]

saved by grace through faith alone [me]

That’s utterly unBiblical. [1010]

- - - - - -
Epic fail 1010. Or do you not bother to read the Bible (which would make sense since the LDS claim it is full of errors). It is the Mormon gospel of works that is completely unbiblical.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son” (John 3: 16-18). Please notice that believers are NOT condemned and have eternal life. This will be very important to remember as you read the claims of most of the prophets on this web site.

We are saved by faith, not works: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do “ (Eph. 2:8,9).

It is the only gospel that is, “ the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes . . . “ (Romans 1:16).

God does not purify us through works but, “ he [God] purified their hearts by faith. . . .We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved . . . “(Acts 15:9, 11).

The steps to confession, “ If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved “ (Romans 10:9, 10). (this entails knowing the True Christ however).

Paul instructed us on the true Gospel: “ By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. OTHERWISE you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance, (1) that Christ died for our SINS according to the Scriptures, (2) that he was buried, (3) that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and (4) that he appeard to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more . . . . “ (1 Cor. 15:2-6).

We were dead in our sins as unbelievers, “ As for you [believers], you were DEAD in your transgressions and sins [before you became believers], in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air [Satan], the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. . . .We were by nature objects of [God’s] wrath. But because of his great love for us, God who is rich in Mercy, MADE US ALIVE with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved “ (Ephesians 2:1-5).

We are saved by faith, not works (emotional experiences, saying a prayer, signing a covenant, etc.): “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.”

A Christ led life will produce righteousness, “ For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say ‘No’ to ungodliness and worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himeslf for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you “ (Titus 2:11-15).

Peter’s introduction to his second epistle, “ Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: . . . “ (2 Peter 1:1).

John’s warning to those who had heard the true Gospel, “ See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Falther. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. “ (1 John 2:25-27).

There is only one way to God, “ Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who had the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life “ (1 John 5:10-13).

We are warned about those who will lead us astray from the true Gospel, “ For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord “ (Jude 1-4).

[Colofornian]

David Smith has essentially described the entire Bible by which all our knowledge of God has come. Through prayer, though, I can know what is and isn’t true. Faith is the key, not facts. Feelings, not logic are what converts one to Christ. Has anyone ever been logicked to the Gospel?

TenTen, please read David Smith's quote again -- here this part: ...you again might speak God has revealed himself. But here again is an absurdity our fellow man brings us a revelation, and we are only guided by our faith IN HIM. We do not know he has had this revelation and eternal salvation depends upon our faith in our fellow man and his revelation. Unjust and absurd.

Don't you notice that David Smith realized that the real "mousetrap filter" in Mormonism isn't Jesus Christ -- since Mormons now believe that all will be raised to immortality & a future resurrection...but it's actually a "prophet" that is their "mousetrap"...do you accept Joseph Smith or not? Therefore, David Smith recognized it's all about "faith in HIM" -- the "Him" is not Jesus Christ or God -- but Joseph Smith!

Let me toss together a parable for you to both further address this -- plus your comment of facts vs. feelings: Let's say the Tibetan govt wanted a base camp higher up on Mt. Everest than what they have; plus they want it accessible via a modern highway. But they don't have the resources to pull it off expense-wise and to navigate the rough terrain, etc. So they take offers from foreign companies -- that if a company can build it, the company can make it a high-$ toll road (in the thousands of dollars per usage).

Three companies come in with offers. They all use distinct routes. And the Tibetan government can't decide which offer to accept, so it simply says, the first one done is the one they will sanction.

And off to the races these three companies go. As it turns out, only one of the three companies built a safe highway. The other two had unreliable bridges.

So the discussion within the Tibetan government is, "Do we stick to our word that the first one done would be sanctioned; or should we consider safety?"

Well, the Tibetan government had a Mormon advisor. They asked him, "What do you think?"

His response wasn't to recommend the safest route. His response was: "Through prayer, though, I can know what is and isn’t true. Faith is the key, not facts. Feelings, not logic are what we need to consider."

And so, the Tibetans immediately began to pray. But as they did, he stopped them. The Mormon advisor said, "No, I wasn't talking about YOU praying. Your praying can result in personal revelation which is good for your personal lives; but since this is a matter that will effect a lot of other lives, you need a prayer of revelation from only one source -- our 'living prophet' back in Salt Lake City. We don't need to give him any 'facts' re: this matter, since faith is the key. I'll tell him to pray about it, and he'll give us the answer."

TenTen, when Mormon missionary enterprises set up operations in foreign countries, they could take two approaches:

One could be to have the natives simply pray about the Book of Mormon minus reading/hearing about its content. (That would be the "blind faith" angle you are apparently now advocating; and you're right, if all you want is to proselyte converts, I suppose the Muslims should start having people pray about the Quran w/out having anybody ever read it..and yup, they'll get "converts.")

Or, they could translate the book into the native language, have them read it first so that they don't 100% try to bypass the mind.

You see, the Gospel literally means "Good News." People needed to hear (and/or read) the Good News before receiving Christ. It's not warm, fuzzy feelings. Even in Luke with the "burning bosom" account where the newly resurrected Jesus was talking to the men, what did Jesus do that prompted that? He recounted the Old Testament scriptures to them! They heard God's revelation spoken to them before they responded! And the faith-source was both the reliability of those Scriptures, and the One they pointed to -- the Messiah -- as well as the One recounting to them that in their very presence!

Had the Jerusalem Gazette been in existence, the death & empty tomb & (alleged) resurrection would have been front-page NEWS. News is simply logically presented facts of actual accounts!

Our faith comes through the filter of history -- Good News in real space & time. It doesn't bypass it. And even in Mormonism, it doesn't. Mormonism simply runs it thru a distinct small "mousetrap" juncture of history: The First Vision.

The real problem in Mormonism is that when missionaries come & ask people to pray about the Book of Mormon is that except for things like works-righteousness, the Book of Mormon is simply the plagiarized Bible in a lot of places with pre-Doctrine & Covenants theology. Prospects see a lot of Bible in it & lifted Biblical phrases. What Mormons really should be doing -- if they were accurate to the foundation of their faith -- is to have people pray about the "First Vision" and tell them, "if you get warm, fuzzy feelings, that must mean the First Vision was so."

And now, let me cap this by returning to my Mt. Everest parable: The Tibetan government took the "revelation" from the Mormon "prophet" upon which highway to go with. Since the Mormon "prophet" was wrong -- and the highway they sanctioned had a few bridges collapse on drivers, the Tibetan government then decided to allow all three highways to be open to the public...and they took the next advice from their Mormon advisor, who said the Tibetan government should issue highway drivers the following advisory:

"While faith in the Mormon prophet's revelation on which route is the best route is needed, not facts; And feelings, not logic are what gets you to the boot camp. We also recognize that you might be taking your life into your own hands if you choose the wrong highway route. Therefore, since we also recognize that personal revelation is important for your own personal decisions, we advise that you take the bridges one at a time. If you come across a bridge that appears to be rickety, pray about it before crossing."

The problem, tenten, is that the Mormon church has replaced the Bridge -- Jesus Christ ("I am the Way..." John 14:6) -- with the Mormon church and its prophet...

Even First President Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's dad, highlighted this for us:

"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119)]

Utter idolatry! Jesus Christ alone qualifies as the object of faith -- the Way. Not a given church! Not a given "prophet!" But Jesus Christ alone!

We don't blindly place our faith in Jesus. Even in the burning bosom experience in Luke, Jesus utilized the Old Testament thoroughly! Experientially, somebody in our lives FIRST came and gave us a revelation about Him...verbally...and the Bible has served as the key testifier -- ALONG with the Holy Spirit.

Tenten, a person could have the weakest faith in Tibet -- and if their faith was in that "safe bridge" -- they'll get to their destination! Or, if a traveler "prayed for revelation" as to whether to cross a certain bridge or not...and they had the accompanying "Feelings" to move forward -- and they felt they had the strongest faith in Tibet...if the bridge collapses on him, 'twas a misdirected faith!

It's NOT the AMOUNT of faith that's key; or the accompanying attached feelings. But it's the object of that faith!

[Colofornian]

saved by grace through faith alone [Reaganaut, citing the New Testament]

That's utterly unBiblical. [1010RD]

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:8-9)

I didn't know, 1010, that Ephesians was "unbiblical" (better tell the apostle Paul)

Even beyond, tenten, the first part of 2:8: is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- I'm curious, what DO YOU DO with the rest of 2:8?

(1) Paul says it's "not from yourselves" (Aren't works from ourselves?)
(2) Paul says "it is the gift of God" (Are you telling me, tenten, that Mormons make their kids work for their birthday, Christmas & other gifts? What kind of a father are you? And if you don't do that, you're not communicating the Mormon version of the gospel to your kids very well, now are you?
(3) In 2:9, the apostle Paul expressly says "not by works" (are you calling him a liar? Or mistaken?)
(4) The apostle Paul says this is "so that no one can boast" (You see, if it's our works that distinguish us -- then we could boast about our pull ourselves by our own bootstraps Mormon approach; if it's faith in Christ's perfgect righteousness subbed on our behalf, then we boast of Christ and praise and glorify HIM for that on our behalf!)

Even when Paul talks about how we are His worksmanship in Eph. 2:10, you realize then that any good works we do -- it's because of the great creator worksmanship of God...and the Holy Spirit operating in and thru us...he told Galatians what we do is but the "fruit of the Spirit."

Time for you to figure out tenten, what kind of a tree ya got growin' in you. Is it YOU -- or the Holy Spirit?

[Elsie]

Time for you to figure out tenten, what kind of a tree ya got growin' in you. Is it YOU -- or the Holy Spirit?

 

Doh!

 

One of these guys has BONES in his hands, but which ONE?

 

I'll have to PRAY about it!

[Elsie]

Instructions given by Joseph Smith:

          "Doctrine & Covenants" Section 129:
1  There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones;
2  For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 
3  Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory. 
4  When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. 
5  If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand. 
6  If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear;
7  Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message. 
8  If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him. 
9  These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

Joseph Smith,   Nauvoo, Illinois,   February 9, 1843.   History of the Church 5:267

[Colofornian]

A quick search will show you this: http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sources/First_Vision_accounts/1832 It only mentions the Lord, no angels and no Heavenly Father. It is Smith’s own account in his own hand.

It also mentions that he was "in the 16th year of my age". His other accounts say he was 14 -- including the "official" version that Mormons have since claimed is Mormon "scripture."

So is Mormon "scripture" wrong/faulty? Or did you just provide a link for all the world to see that Smith didn't know what he was talking about in this handwritten version...and that if he couldn't even get his own age right, then NOTHING ELSE in that document is trustworthy, either?

Which is it? (I anticipate an answer on this).

You know, Smith was 26 yrs old when he wrote this. 26. What? When you're 26 & supposedly giving an account of the most important event in your life, you don't remember how old you were 10-12 years before? Really?

Tell us, 1010: How old were you when you graduated from elementary or Jr. High? (Would you be off a year or two on that? And how many years later are we talking?) Tell us, 1010: Do you remember the year you married your wife? If you married at age 17-19, would you forget that when you were 29 in the most handwritten account of that sacred event? What? Are you going to be off on those things give or take a few years?

Or would you leave out a "small detail" like "Heavenly Father (or God) appeared to me out of the blue one day?" Or two gods appeared to me? Or two personages appeared to me? Really?

Ya gotta understand this "account" wasn't meant for the world to see. It wasn't published in his lifetime, nor for the next century as well. In these kinds of accounts, you expect a person to tell what he really saw. Obviously, he saw no heavenly father. He didn't see two personages.

If this account is accurate -- reality -- then the official account lies. Mormons are publisher-liars. Worse, they are false prophets for claiming the official account is "scripture." They have added to the Bible a knowing false historical account.

When they had this 1832 account in their possession -- and other accounts that openly & directly contradict those accounts --that is called deception.

[zippythepinhead]

I have nothing to prove to you. The proof comes from the Spirit. The burden of proof is on the individual in question of the validity of Mormonism. If you don’t believe and won’t believe, then so be it.

I have gone the other route with scholarship, scriputre both Bible, BOM, etc. Why go a circular route where it is my views vs. your views. So I beg to decline and what people think of my posts is their business.