Posted on 04/03/2010 9:09:05 PM PDT by pissant
Catholics don’t tell Jews to convert. I recommend that you find out the facts before you shoot off your mouth.
Show me. Not in my Chabad Synagogue.
- - - - -
Thank you, Uncle Miltie.
I found that disturbing, just like I found the "Catholics pray for 'Jews' conversion," distrubing, because as I life-long Catholic, this article is the first I have heard of such a thing!
On Good Friday, two days before Easter, a prayer titled “Let us Pray for the Conversion of the Jews” was recited in Latin by traditionalist Catholic congregations in Italy, plus 16 sections of the Society of Saint Pius.
I can’t get the entire article due to repeated IE errors with that page, but from what is posted here, it’s a fine example of sloppy research.
For starters, the use of the 1962 Missal is not allowed within the Roman Rite during the Triduum of Holy Week, which includes Good Friday.
I’m southern baptist...we always left Jews alone.
SInce when is praying for someone not leaving them alone?
We have our eyes open, and we toss them from the church and report them to the authorities for trial and prison. Not just shuffle them off to a new parish, or give them an "administrative" position...
Jeez. “Tell us to” should’ve been “pray that we”. I didn’t edit perfectly and review each word in comparison, yada yada yada.
Everyone calm down.
Would that...
My father used to say "There will be a lot of surprised people in heaven" and I've always thought he was right. We shall see (I hope).
Or let them die of old age before they get put in jail??
http://ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=11877
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5889074&page=1
http://www.kentuckyinjurylawyerblog.com/2010/01/sexual_assault_rape_trial_of_t.html
What should I pray for him? Believe me, he is willfully blind to the Truth, and I'm finding it hard not to just write him off.
You know Christian preachers who are former Jews - and I know Jews and Jewish preachers who are former Christians and Christian preachers. I know a former Christian preacher and his wife who went through first a conversion in the Conservative Movement of Judaism and then, realizing that he’d been shortchanged in his learning there, went through a second multi-year conversion according to orthodoxy.
Given the many millions over the millenia who have been tortured and killed by Christians soley because they were Jews, Jews ought to be forgiven by their Christian friends for praying for freedom from those who are fixated on the Jews.
The article explains that in 2007, in an effort to bring the traditionalist elements of the Church back into the fold, Benedict issued a “Motu Proprio” declaration allowing wider use of the 1962, pre-Vatican II Roman Missal containing this prayer.
We did not dwell on Jews much...Catholics either to be honest...though we played parochial in sports...and their nuns seemed not so sweet
It wasn’t till I was an adult that I learned a lot of Jews are lefties and a lot don’t much cotton to Christian Conservatism or that a lot of Catholics think Protestants are all wrong and some even go so far as to say we are not of the true Christian Church.
I attended Calvary Baptist .Jackson Miss...60s and 70s
we were preached to about behavior and salvation and consequences and Biblical history and scritpture
Jews and Catholics did not come up.
Jews did once when Dr Tuten railed against the klan for bombing the local temple for it’s association with Jewish freedom rider types Beth Israel...i think I recall
as a boy i didn’t see much difference tween me and Jewish and Catholic kids...cet Jews went to Church at an odd time like SDA and had loud moms and Catholics tended to be Italian or Lebs
The Roman Missal modified by Pope Paul VI in 1969, and put into effect in 1970, has this formulation: "Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant." The following prayer is this: "Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption."
Of course some Jews may be offended at the suggestion that the fullness of redemption is found in Jesus Christ, but their problem is with Christianity as such. They certainly are not interested in respectful dialogue between Jews who adhere to Judaism and Christians who adhere to Christianity.
The jpost writer has it wrong - as I just stated, the 1962 Missal is not to be used on Good Friday.
Most Jews in America (in my experience) are leftists first. G-d is not among their priorities. Which is to say, they are culturally Jewish, but so non-practicing and non-believing that the Democrat Party is really their G-d.
Pray for them to open their eyes politically, and return to their G-d. That would be an excellent outcome from a Conservative’s perspective.
Divide and conquer.
And satan is rubbing his hands in glee!
Should we be faulted for praying for a fellow human being's salvation?
Let us all just pray for each other and have an end to this vitriol, please?
That is preposterous.
Miltie,
Boychik, isn’t that what I already said, almost verbatim, in my earlier post?
And a gut Moed to YOU!
I defer to your greater knowledge, but I was just pointing out what was written in the article.
A very Happy Easter to you and yours.
“But I have Jewish friend who adores Obama. Nothing I can say or point out to him will convince him that the man is a Marxist anti semite.
What should I pray for him? Believe me, he is willfully blind to the Truth, and I’m finding it hard not to just write him off.”
Are you trying to equate the case of many Jews being brainwashed by the insidious Marxist infiltration of America with their not being convinced to believe Jesus is the son of God? If so, how do you explain believing Christians voting for Obama? Have they replaced one Messiah with another? Belief in God and the messiah are based on faith. Obama’s history is documented to a great enough degree to know without a shadow of a doubt who he is and what he believes. Are you better able to convince Christian Obama supporters tnan Jewish ones about how wrong they’ve been? In my experience, Obama supporters, regardless of religion, are closed to other points of view.
“Some Jews become Muslims, and others become Nazis. And a large number voted for Barry Obama.”
More Christians became Nazis and muslims than Jews did.
And more Christians by percentage and total numbers voted for the Kenyan imposter than jinos did.
And as a religious Jew I know more Christians who have converted to Judaism than the reverse.
You’re a fine supporter of Israel on FR.
Pray all you want; I pray everyday for people to worship G-d as I understand him.
But stop blaming us for Christian failures.
I’m in the middle of Passover so may not be online to respond further.
Have a nice Easter.
Moadim L’simcha!
There we go!
Y’all have a Happy Easter!
We’ll just munch some more matzah over here....
“A Jew converting to Christianity would have to agree that his beloved ancestors are in hell but that he or she hopes to do better.”
“That is preposterous.”
Really?
Christianity says that belief in Jesus is essential to salvation. But a Jew knows that his ancestors didn’t believe in Jesus, and also has a 5th commandment duty to honor his father and mother. 1 + 1 still = 2.
Some clever fellow here posts that after you die Jesus will visit all the good non-believers in purgatory and offer them a second chance. He is entitled to his own interpretation of the Bible.
However, standard Christian doctrine is that salvation is by faith alone, and that good works only offer evidence of the genuineness of the faith. Whether someone like Gandhi would go to purgatory or hell is I suppose a matter of theological debate; but he clearly wouldn’t be allowed in heaven due to lack of faith in Jesus. And neither would a pious Jew full of charity, love, and good works.
Jews tortured and killed Christians, too.
I don’t blame the Jews of today.
I don’t think you should blame the Christians of today.
Israel’s best friend is the American Protestant.
I usually think Jewish is an identity most often matriarchal
Judaism is a religion..the parent of my own actually and we do have shared books...important ones too like all of Moses and Isaiah..my favorite
plenty of folks Christian born too who don't practice either...particularly a denomination that shall go unmentioned here..lol
(donning my Cromwellian shield)
just kidding really...it's more about values and life's viewpoint and a belief in a creator
except Muslims...I simply do not feel that a true adherence to Islam is compatible with a Constitutional Republic
be that bigotry then so be it
Okay, then. But I dare you to follow the shadows of the Old Covenant and not wind up realizing it was all about revealing in the fulness of time....Christ Jesus!
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.—Genesis 3:15 NAS
How could anyone be happy or at peace knowing that their beloved relatives would suffer forever?
re: “However, standard Christian doctrine is that salvation is by faith alone, and that good works only offer evidence of the genuineness of the faith. Whether someone like Gandhi would go to purgatory or hell is I suppose a matter of theological debate; but he clearly wouldn’t be allowed in heaven due to lack of faith in Jesus. And neither would a pious Jew full of charity, love, and good works.”
Without the preservation of the Law, the Psalms, the Wisdom Literature, and the Prophets by the Jewish people, Christianity would not exist.
Knowledge of G-d and who He is was revealed by Him to the Jewish people. It is through them that the rest of the world received this knowledge of Him as well.
Jesus, the Apostles, and the early church were all Jewish. Most, if not all, of the Christian scriptures were written by Jewish Christians.
The message of the early church was that none of us can make ourselves righteous, by G-d’s standards, by our own merit. None of us can remove the guilt of our sin by good deeds -not Jew, not Greek, not Roman, not American - no one. Good deeds were commendable, but not sufficient to make us perfectly holy and righteous before a perfectly Holy and Righteous G-d.
Even the Jewish Prophets wrote how the blood of animal sacrifices were not what G-d really desired - rather, He responded to a “broken and contrite heart”. Animal sacrifices could temporaily “cover over” sin, but it could not remove the guilt of our sin forever. They could not make a person righteous inside and out.
Only G-d Himself could remove the guilt of our sin. This is what the early Christians believed and taught.
Furthermore, the Christian doctrine of faith alone in Christ for salvation all hinges on who Jesus of Nazareth is. If he truely was “G-d” in the flesh who came to redeem mankind, then he cannot be ignored. We have to make a decision about him - is he or is he not Messiah, the Son of G-d, G-d in the flesh? If he isn’t, then all Christianity falls. If he is, then He is our only hope of salvation before G-d. That’s pretty exclusive, but is based on who the person of Jesus is.
The early Christians prayed that all might come to a knowledge of salvation through Jesus the Messiah - not that they were better than anyone else. If what they believed is true, then it is the Truth for all people - not just for them. This may seem narrow, but again, if Jesus is really who He claimed to be - then it isn’t narrow - it is simply the Truth.
It’s not arrogant or narrow when a doctor reveals to us that we have a certain disease and the cure to make us better. It’s simply a message of truth being imparted. We can accept or reject the doctor’s diagnosis, how we respond to the doctor’s message will determine the consequences of that decision on our lives.
If Christians are wrong about who Jesus is, then I guess the world doesn’t have much to worry about. However, if He really is G-d, then . . .
Hum, well, isnt condemning anyone to hell not your prerogative anyway?
I’ll have to disagree with the Empire on that one, pissant.
Isaiah 43:11
Zechariah 14:9
Malachi 3:6
Isaiah 18
Yes, I do and I earnestly labor toward that end. Are you a Christian? If not, may I tell you how to become a Christian?
Not correct. Any of those Jewish ancestors who believed in the Messiah to come, the seed of Abraham who would bless the Nations, DID believe in Jesus and was thus saved. Only those who accept Christ will see the Kingdom of Heaven and thus all Christians must pray for the conversion of unbelievers. Paul tells us there will be a mass conversion of the Jews to Christ once the times of the gentiles has been fulfilled.
If you don't believe as the person praying for you believes, so what. In your mind they are praying to some non-existent God for your conversion to some non-existent truth.
So what!!!
You want to get offended (what kind of sissy is "offended" anyway?), get offended when someone threatens to remove your noggin for not converting...that an offense worth taking.
I think next year, we will be having a prayer as follows:
“Let us Pray for the Conversion of all those who are offended that we pray for their conversion”
followed by:
Let us Pray for the Conversion of all those who are offended that we pray for those who are offended”
You wrote:
“Would you say that Gandhi and Einstein “knew no better through no fault of their own” in not believing in the divinity of Jesus?”
I said nothing about “not believing in the divinity of Jesus”. I suggest you actually deal with my words rather than invent words I never said. And no, I would not say that Ghandi or Einstein knew no better, but thankfully that’s not my job and not my decision.
“I think that is playing with words to evade an inconvenient issue of religious doctrine.”
I don’t play with words - as you just did by putting words in my mouth - and I don’t believe there are any inconvenient doctrines.
The redemption happened 2,000 years ago.
Isn’t that EXACTLY what I said?
Jews before the time of Christ were saved by believing God’s promises (in a sense believing in Christ). They are in paradise and I sincerely hope my Jewish brothers and sisters receive Christ to join them there.
“And people here wonder why Jews are suspicious of evangelicals’ support for Israel.”
Don’t worry friend. People here will explain not only why you are going to hell, but also why every other Christian who is not of their particular denomination is also going to hell.
We’re lucky to be able to see so many people that are able to speak for God on the state of your soul.
Don’t think you are being singled out, though.
Don’t worry. The Eyn Sof will one day convert all non-Jews to Torah as B’nai Noach and the world will realize that everything outside of Torah are simply distractions.
As Jew who came to know the Lord and loves him, very well said my friend. I have a hard time with my family, they stayed Jewish, they regard it more a cultural anchor than a belief system. I came to Jesus not based on some esoteric experience, I came to it through logic and earnest study, by discovering the historicity and accuracy of the New Testament. Its not a blind faith but a faith based in the bedrock of facts. Kabaalism and Orthodox Judaism ruminate on the Torah and ponder it’s hidden messages and secret meanings in a futile attempt to complete the circle. G*d cannot be understood if you ignore the other 1/2 of his revelation to man. It’s just not possible. The Jew is not wrong, he is simply waiting the accept the complete message of the Lord. I think to be fair to the Catholics, that is what they pray for, not the damnation of the Jews, the finger wagging, “Your wrong” recriminations, but the earnest hope their eyes are opened and fully embrace their wonderful COMPLETE heritage.
Actually,I’ve come to suspect “Christians” who support Obama aren’t really Christians at all. Particularly if they’re even moderately informed.
re: The Jew is not wrong, he is simply waiting the accept the complete message of the Lord.
G-d bless you, pburge01. Thank you for sharing your testimony. The Jewish people and Israel are precious to all true Christians. They are G-d’s people and are still tied to His promises to ultimately redeem them back to Himself.
This is clear in the scriptures and it is one of the major reasons why the United States has historically supported Israel and why Evangelical Christians are supporters of Israel, too.
re: Don’t worry friend. People here will explain not only why you are going to hell, but also why every other Christian who is not of their particular denomination is also going to hell.
I think what you don’t understand about Christianity is that they believe the Bible teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of G-d”. No one, on their own personal righteousness and merit are righteous enough to remove the guilt of their sin and live in the presence of a perfect, holy, sinless G-d.
In other words, all of us are in the same sinking boat - all mankind stands condemned by our sin before G-d - those that grab onto the life ring thrown out to us (in the person and work of Jesus) for salvation by G-d are not “better” than anyone else. No, they are just “rescued”, not “better”.
Is it arrogance to tell others in the sinking boat about the availability of that life rope so that they may be rescued too - especially if that is the only life rope that is long enough and strong enough to save?
However, as to condemnation by Christians, I agree with you that if they do that they are mistaken. Jesus Himself said that He did not come to condemn the world, but to save it. He said the world already stands condemned - but, His desire is that all - yes, all may come to salvation through Him. He said, “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, but through Me.” His offer of salvation is available to all who are willing to receive it.
It is the Christian’s calling and responsibility to tell the whole world about that one and only way of salvation. That is narrow, but it is not arrogant - at least it shouldn’t be. The question is: What are you going to do about Jesus? If He is really who He said He is, then He is of primary importance to every single person. If He is a fraud, then I guess no one has anything to worry about. On the other hand it stands to reason that everyone should seriously consider what He said and did and evaluate those claims by logic, reason, archeology, and history. You won’t find every single question answered, and faith is definitely a part of the decision, but it is not a total “leap in the dark”.
“Is it arrogance to tell others in the sinking boat about the availability of that life rope so that they may be rescued too - especially if that is the only life rope that is long enough and strong enough to save?”
My point is that it is indeed the height of arrogance to throw someone your rope and tell them that is the only way to salvation. Let them be saved by the only One who matters, not by the myriad of false gods among men that are sure they have the “one true path” for all to follow.
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