Posted on 02/10/2010 8:31:36 AM PST by FourtySeven
bump
Unfortunately for you, that option is out in left field, too.
Grace is the gift of God purchased for us in Jesus Christ.
Ephesians chapter 2 says it best.
First off, if God and His workings could be explained and defined like a recipe, or computer program, He would not be God. When we try to do that we create a god of our own imagination. The gift of faith comes from God. We cannot work it up on our own. So, we quickly come to see that God is far beyond our comprehension, and we only see or understand what He reveals to us.
And that is where God and His grace becomes real to me.
I wish I could give you a snapshot of what I was before God became real to me. I was a walking piece of trash you wouldn’t want in your house. When I finally got to the place I was revolted by my own behavior, God caused me to pray for mercy. Something inside changed. Gradually, God took me out of a lot of bad things. I quit fighting Him. My words were,”Ok, God, you have the whole thing.” The storm in my heart was calmed, and for the first time in my life, I picked up my Bible and as I read I felt God’s presence, and sensed Him speaking to me from His Word. That simply is a miracle of God and cannot be explained. I can only say that from that point nothing in my life has been the same.
I’m not a holy joe. I’m a real life person with real life struggles.
Biggest change, before, my only choices were, “What wicked thing do I want to do next?” (making long story short).
Now, something inside says, “You have choices, you can say ‘no’ to the bad thing. You can say, “Yes” to doing what’s right.” And that is an amazing thing to me!
How is God real? The best things I know about God, are the things I have learned during heartache, disapointment, big trouble, grief, etc. Easily explained in this little verse, “When my anxious thoughts multiply within me, Thy consolations delight my soul.” (I keep reading my Bible and making a list of what those consolations are.)
It’s like this. I’m not real smart. It amazes me that as I read my Bible various verses stick in my brain.
God brings trouble into my life. I grieve, get angry, struggle, all of that. When I run out of energy, God brings one of those verses to mind, and He says, “Here, let me take that burden, it is too big for you.”
In this process God shows me my weakness and dependence on Him. He proves His Word. He does a healing work on my heart that conquers my sin and makes me better. And that is so amazing to me, that I am not the trashy thing I used to be, but I’m becoming something new!
So, how do I know God and His grace are real? I thank and praise Him for the trouble He brings. God is at work in me through His living Word, to cause all things to work together for good! The process makes me know He is real, and He loves me, and will never, ever leave me to myself.
This journey began over 30 years ago.
“Not Over—But Through”
I came to the swift raging river,
And the roar was the echo of fear.
“Oh Lord, give me wings to fly over,
If you are, by your promise, quite
near.”
But He said, “Trust the grace I am
giving,
All-pervasive, sufficient for you.
Take my hand; we will face this
together;
But my plan is—”Not over—but
through.”
At times it is easy to trust Him,
And each promise shines like a light.
“Oh Lord, I am willing to trust you;
I just don’t want to walk in the night.”
But He said, “You can trust me—
Whatever;
When courage and strength are all
gone,
When nothing seems right or seems
easy,
When all you can do is hang on.”
This is how I received God’s grace, and how I know it is real.
A good answer, and I do agree. It's theologically sound, I believe.
My main reason for posting this thread is as stated above: It's not to start another complex theological debate, but to simply answer the question, "How does God operate in the world? How does His Grace come to us?" It's a very simple question, but, IMO, often overlooked as we dig further deeper debating such topics as "predestination", "Baptism", "Pelagianism" and the like.
Those debates have their place, don't get me wrong. However, for me, anymore, this is of little interest. It doesn't interest me much anymore to debate, simply for debate's sake. Actually, I believe my question about *how* does God pour His grace upon us actually can put to rest many questions the above mentioned topics can generate.
I believe you touched upon a very important point, one I agree with, which is that God's Grace can be experienced in a number of forms, some, more sublime than others. But one, that I'd submit, is most often overlooked here, and elsewhere, by many: Via the fellowship with Christians.
There is often much debate and assertion that Man is "completely lost" and therefore has "no intrinsic value". That this world has no value, and we should just be focusing on God (whatever that means). But the same people will turn around and say beautiful things like, "I experience God's grace when I see a flower bloom, or a baby being born". I submit there's a disconnect there, and this is the point of this thread. To examine this apparent disconnect, and perhaps come to fuller understanding of how God is operating in each of our lives.
I had always loved God, held Him close, thanked Him for my blessings and understood that ALL came from Him, was minimally churched as a child (sporadic Sunday School) and to be honest, where my ever-present, deeply rooted faith came from is still a mystery to me. In my 20s I read completely the New Testament (have only read bits and pieces of the OT) and it made my heart swell and gave comfort and confidence.
Yet STILL I knew that my belief in Christ was ... well, that Jesus was a parable, a myth, and His virgin birth also a parable. I was always a little perplexed hearing preachers talk about having a "personal relationship" with Jesus, and considered it to be a kind of happy-talk, well-meaning, but frivolous. All of that was okay by me because God works His wonders in ways that it's presumptuous to question, but nonetheless ...
... then late one evening about 15 years ago, when I was goofing around on the computer and religion was about the farthest thing from my mind, all of the sudden I had this ... well, all I can call it is a revelation. It was very odd. It was as if something washed over me, like I'd been bashed and tumbled in a wave of warm water -- OUT OF THE BLUE, mind you, not after reflection and meditation, but out of nowhere -- and I surfaced realizing that in my heart, way down deep, in the gut of my soul, I knew for certain sure -- in the same sense that I knew for sure that my car was parked outside or knew for sure that there was a gallon of milk in the fridge -- that a) Jesus was a real man who truly lived and that b) He WAS born of a virgin birth; that it was no parable or religion, but a reality.
I sat and wept with joy.
I think the biggest change that came from it was that it allowed me to understand my direct link to and relationship with Jesus, my Savior.
I agree, it's "unmerited favor". I also agree there is no "pre-existing thing that anyone must do", obviously, since the favor is ummerited, we can't do anything to receive it on our own.
However, this is not the method I'm suggesting/asking about. I'm asking, *how* does God reach us in our human state? You see, this is the key. We are human beings. That does not change, either before or after we are "saved". We remain a human being, a different kind of human being (arguably, again I don't wish to get into the theology too much) but a human being just the same.
Therefore, I suggest that the way, or at least one of the ways, that God pours His Grace upon us is in a human way, a way only a human could appreciate and indeed, the way a human needs: through others. That is, He can and does use others to give us His Grace.
Is this your experience? Have you experienced His Grace through others? If not, how do you experience God's grace?
Let me know if I misunderstand the question ... which is certainly possible ... but, here goes ...
I would say the characteristic, aside from Grace, that distinguishes Christianity from other faiths is TRUTH. It is the fundamental characteristic which ties the faith to present-day reality, and which makes Christianity uniquely applicable to actual human life.
Fundamental to this truth is the concept of Grace. It is true that dry theology is entirely insufficient ... but the theology surrounding Grace is so fundamental to Christianity that it simply cannot be glossed over while searching for a connection to present-day reality. It is the connection to the reality of human life that you’re looking for ...
In every other religion the world-over, your ascention to heaven (or wherever) depends solely on your works in this life. You have to earn your way to heaven. The concept of Grace acknowedges what each person knows fundamentally, to their core, even if they don’t say it outloud ... we’re not worthy.
No matter how much we hide it on the exterior — we know our inner thoughts, our inner struggles, our demons, our imperfections. We know the thoughts that entered our mind when we saw the attractive blonde bend over to pick-up something; we know the hatred we felt for George Tiller ... we know the petty grudges we have held, the vengeance we have sought, the lust we have experienced, the lies that we’ve told, the pride, the arrogance ... and we know that God knows too. Beneath our perfected exterior is an imperfect being that only we and God fully know.
This is where all of the other religions unravel. If heaven is a test of worthiness — heaven cannot exist (or will be a ghost town, and God will be a very lonely man). The reality of human life is that we don’t deserve heaven — not a single one of us — and we know it, and God knows it. Thus, if we are to sit with Him in heaven, it can be by his Grace alone ... through the acknowledgement of the sacrifice of His Son to make us worthy of ascention.
The TRUTH of the imperfectability of any individual human is among the central tenets of GRACE — and the central reason that Christianity is solely and uniquely connected to reality. Without this fundamental truth, other religions get lost in desperate attempts to cleanse and perfect themselves to try to become worthy of Him. Its a hamster-wheel ... trying to perfect the imperfectible, because, fundamentally, even practicioners of other religions know they’ll never be able to earn it.
SnakeDoc
In the material realm, it would most often come through others, but not necessarily always.
Thank you for sharing that beautiful testimony. Indeed, this is part of what I was posting, that Christianity must be *REAL*, that is, affect real change in our lives, or else it is nothing more than a nice thought to ease the realization of our mortality.
May I ask, how do you continue to receive God’s grace today?
Perhaps put another way, nothing (not even the means of grace) creates “grace.” The means of grace, in all their manifestations, are ways that God draws us into His presence, but God’s presence is the grace.
Thank you, and I agree 100%.
Easton's Dictionary: Grace (1.) Of form or person (Pr 1:9; 3:22; Ps 45:2). (2.) Favour, kindness, friendship (Ge 6:8; 18:3; 19:19; 2Ti 1:9). (3.) God's forgiving mercy (Ro 11:6; Eph 2:5). (4.) The gospel as distinguished from the law (Joh 1:17; Ro 6:14; 1Pe 5:12). (5.) Gifts freely bestowed by God; as miracles, prophecy, tongues (Ro 15:15; 1Co 15:10; Eph 3:8). (6.) Christian virtues (2Co 8:7; 2Pe 3:18). (7.) The glory hereafter to be revealed (1Pe 1:13).
Therefore we must clarify what type of Grace you are inquiring about. In my understanding the gift of Grace we recieve upon the "new birth" is not asked for, just as Noah found Grace in the eyes of The Lord, we find Grace in the eyes of the Lord.
The next part of a Christian's journey is the gift of Santification, which as a follower of Christ is our daily walk on this side of the veil. We become filled with the Holy Spirit!
Vine's: lengthened forms of pleo, "to fill" (pletho supplies certain tenses of pimplemi), is used (1) of things; boats, with fish, Luke 5:7; a sponge, with vinegar, Matt. 27:48 (some mss. have this verb in John 19:29); a city, with confusion, Acts 19:29; a wedding, with guests, Matt. 22:10; (2) of persons (only in Luke's writings: (a) with the Holy Spirit, Luke 1:15,41,67; Acts 2:4; 4:8,31; 9:17; 13:9.
A significant note concerning Luke's account, as we know he did not walk with Christ during our Savior's earthy ministry. His account was the testimony of the Apostle of Grace, who was the only Apostle to be chosen and personally instucted by the Risen King.
In my life God's Grace is all the sufficientcy He gives to me by the moment. All creation belongs to Him to gift as He wills, as the Elect we recieve all the Grace He deems we need.
Ro 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
To God Alone The Glory!
Yes, I think I see what you’re getting at. The way I look at it is that we receive His presence by spending time wherever He promises to meet us. He meets us in fellowship with one another, Scripture, the sacraments (when married to the Word), etc...So, because I define grace as presence, I view anything that draws us nearer to God as a means of grace, so to speak.
I think I receive His grace in my many, many, many blessings and in my reminders to myself to be humble. Like the time a few months ago that I was carelessly driving too fast and changed lanes without looking, heard an angry honk, and realized that if not for the fast thinking of a man driving a car with a woman, presumably his wife, there would have been a horrible accident, lives changed on a dime. Man, talk about a reminder to be humble!!! You can bet your patoot that I sent up many prayers of thanks and requests for blessings on the driver of the car, and his family. I don’t know if that’s what you’re looking for, but it’s what comes to mind as an example.
Matt 18:23-35 ...The master (Representative of God) forgave the servant, but took the forgiveness back because the servant failed to forgive another for a much smaller debt. Luke 11:2–4 ...Again, in the Lord’s Prayer, we are told to forgive others, so that our Father in Heaven will forgive us. Grace isn’t some magical or mystical experience that we look back on to justify our Christianity. It is a condition that is necessary for living in the Kingdom of Heaven. Ask, receive, give and trust.
How many angels dance on the head of a pin?
When God calls you,( you cannot come to God without the Spirit calling you to Him, lest you boast you had anything to do with it), you must accept that you are a sinner, you are lost and cannot save yourself, and that you need a Redeemer. You ask for the Blood Jesus shed for you to cover your sins and for His Spirit to enter your heart. To repent of your sins means you must turn from them. You cannot retain your love of sin and belong to God. If we sin, we must repent, ask for forgiveness, and He is quick to forgive. Being saved doesn't give you a pass to keep sinning.
Baptism is a public confession that you have repented and acknowledge Jesus is Lord. It is not required to be saved, but is commanded if you are able. The thief on the cross could not perform good works, could not be baptized, could do nothing but confess with his mouth that he believed Jesus was who He said He was. Jesus gave him Grace while nailed on the cross.
I know I have received His Grace because He promised it to me. Faith is what saves you. You cannot be saved by "covering the confession base". Many want to say they have accepted Christ into their life just to make sure they have covered all the bases. If you are questioning your salvation, I question it also. You will know, because you will trust! Doubt requires repentance because you have insulted His Word to you.
We tend to turn our lives over to Jesus, and then take it back. He loves you, He desires your love, and will pursue you. Your question should be, "Do I love Him?" God's Grace is His gift to you. You just have to accept it to receive it.
First of all, let me say this is an excellent post of yours, thank you. Much to consider here, theologically speaking; it offers a rich feast for the intellect. I mean that sincerely.
I agree that theology cannot be “glossed over”; in the totality of things, all things considered, theology is important in of itself. I believe however, part of true theological exercise is to examine our faith from our own perspective. The writ of St. Paul comes to mind again, “Test ALL things, hold fast to that which is true”. How do we test things? By making judgements. We judge things by our minds, aided by Christ. This is my assertion.
So, I wish to test this notion of “grace”, because again I believe it is not given the full attention it deserves. The word is bandied about in an almost guttural manner at times, IMO, with people asserting “I received the Grace of God through my faith; your belief in Baptism is pagan”, or the reverse, “Grace is instilled via the Sacrament of Baptism, and other Sacraments, see? This Church father said so, and this one and this one...”
This is not paying due diligence to the concept, IMO, and indeed, it’s missing the point if we first do not understand *how* God gives us His Grace. I again assert (as I did upthread, I don’t know if I did to you directly before) that if we *don’t* understand *how* He does, then we can never really answer the tough theological issues often debated but never resolved here.
It’s a simple question a few people have honestly answered already. I’m not saying this to be sarcastic or confrontational, but to hopefully get you to realize what I’m asking: How do you believe God has given His Grace to YOU? How? Through a priest? Through the appreciation of the beauty of nature? Through prayer? How? How? How?
Ok thanks, I look forward to anything more you wish to share.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.