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Vatican decision received with some applause, some apathy
South Coast Today ^ | November 02, 2009 | LINDA ANDRADE RODRIGUES

Posted on 11/02/2009 8:43:51 AM PST by Alex Murphy

After a three-year process, the Vatican recently decided to invite the world's 77 million Anglicans into the fold, offering full communion within the Roman Catholic Church while retaining Anglican liturgy and the married priesthood.

While the decision will offer an opportunity to the worldwide Traditional Anglican Communion, representing 300,000 to 400,000 Anglicans who sought "full, corporate, sacramental union" with the Roman Catholic Church, it is not expected to dramatically affect the American Episcopal Church, according to area clergy who were pleased or disaffected by the news.

The Roman Catholic Diocese of Fall River reacted with cautious optimism, warning that much is still unknown; local Anglican (American Episcopal) clergy said the Vatican decision will have no impact on their congregations.

"It is a most interesting development and quite preliminary at the same time," said Father Marc H. Bergeron, director of the diocesan Ecumenical and Interfaith Affairs Office. "There are many details that remain to be worked out and possible ramifications go in many directions: What does it mean about celibacy in general? Will the invite go to men not already ordained? What about the pastoral provision already in place here in the USA in a few parishes?"

In 1980, a Vatican-approved provision allowed conservative Anglicans to convert to Catholicism. Consequently, six of these parishes are worshipping in this country.

Yet, it is unclear whether this model will work when the new provision is in place and difficult to predict how many Anglicans will choose to convert.

"American Episcopalians are quite liberal," Bergeron said. "That seems to limit local interest."

A Sydney Adams Award recipient, Bergeron, a Catholic priest, was honored in 2008 for distinguished service in ecumenical ministry by the Inter-Church Council of Greater New Bedford, one of the largest ecumenical ministries in New England, representing 45 local Protestant congregations.

The council counts seven Anglican parishes among its members, including St. Martin's, St. Andrew's and Grace in New Bedford; Church of the Good Shepherd in Fairhaven; St. Gabriel's in Marion; St. Peter's in Dartmouth; and Church of the Good Shepherd in Wareham.

Over the past decade, there have been deep doctrinal divisions within the Anglican Church, centered on the ordination of female priests, openly gay clergy and the blessing of same-sex unions, which has caused much dissension and the threat of a permanent schism. SouthCoast representatives of Anglicanism, like much of the country, are made up of both liberal and conservative parishes that have watched the international debate play out.

Today, the major difference between the Catholic and Anglican faiths is one of form of polity. The way Anglicans carry on their work is by vote, while the pope makes the decisions for the Roman Catholic faithful. Theologically, basic doctrine is congruent, yet, the Catholic Church does not recognize sacraments performed in the Anglican Church.

According to the Rev. Paul Rodgers, rector of St. Peter's Episcopal Church in Dartmouth, Anglicans who are true to historic Anglican theology (The 39 Articles, Formularies, and Homilies) are very reformed and could not in good conscience join the Roman Catholic Church.

"My reflection is that there are some Anglicans, lay people, clergy, and bishops, whose theology is already essentially Roman Catholic," he said. "For them, joining the Roman Catholic Church would be natural anyway, even without the new edict. But because there are not too many Anglicans in the U.S. that are theologically Roman Catholic, I don't see this having much impact here."

The Rev. William Bradbury, rector of Grace Episcopal Church in New Bedford, said that he is glad whenever someone who is unhappy in the Episcopal Church finds a spiritual home in the Roman Catholic Church.

"This allows the Episcopal Church more deeply to follow Jesus Christ in welcoming those who are deemed unfit or too defective to be fully active members and clergy of the Roman Catholic Church, like gays, lesbians, the divorced, and, of course, women who are called to ordained ministry," he said. "In God's time we will all be brought together in unity, but until then each church incarnates the love of Christ as the Spirit directs."

The Rev. David Fredrickson, rector of the Church of the Good Shepherd in Wareham, said his initial reaction to the Vatican's decision is favorable.

"It is favorable progress on the whole toward unity of the Roman Catholic and Anglican traditions," he said. "I find it interesting that it comes at a time when the Anglican community is strained over doctrinal issues, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. Any sort of move like this is done in good faith, and it may be a place where some Anglicans will be able to find a home. So I do think that it is a positive thing. Time will tell."

Locally, parishioners of St. Andrew's Traditional Anglican Church worship in an old stone chapel at 8 Highland St. in Rock Village, South Middleboro.

Bishop Charles Morley, presiding bishop of the Traditional Protestant Anglican Church, of which St. Andrew's is a member, said the Roman Catholic Church has erred, not only in their living and manner of ceremonies, but also in matters of faith, citing the 19th Article of the 39 Articles of Religion of the Anglican Prayer Book.

"Anglo-Catholics are welcome to leave the Church for Rome. Protestants wish them God-speed," said Morley. "We will continue to serve the Head of the Church Catholic which is no man but the Lord Jesus Christ."

History traces the beginning of the Anglican faith to the early 1530s when King Henry VIII declared himself supreme head of the Church of England, breaking from the pope's authority. Although it is widely believed that England became Protestant because the king sought a divorce that the pope would not grant, this is only partly true. English reformer John Wyclif denounced wealth and corruption in the Roman Catholic Church in the 14th century, and Protestant ideas imported from the continent had gained a foothold since the earliest days of the Reformation.

"A History of Christian Theology" records that under Henry's young son Edward VI, English theology moved closer to Calvinism, but when Edward died, his sister Mary returned England to Roman Catholicism. On Mary's death in 1558, her sister Elizabeth secured a Protestant compromise, an independent church and some sort of Protestantism became part of the English tradition.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholic
Today, the major difference between the Catholic and Anglican faiths is one of form of polity. The way Anglicans carry on their work is by vote, while the pope makes the decisions for the Roman Catholic faithful. Theologically, basic doctrine is congruent, yet, the Catholic Church does not recognize sacraments performed in the Anglican Church.

According to the Rev. Paul Rodgers, rector of St. Peter's Episcopal Church in Dartmouth, Anglicans who are true to historic Anglican theology (The 39 Articles, Formularies, and Homilies) are very reformed and could not in good conscience join the Roman Catholic Church.

"My reflection is that there are some Anglicans, lay people, clergy, and bishops, whose theology is already essentially Roman Catholic," he said. "For them, joining the Roman Catholic Church would be natural anyway, even without the new edict. But because there are not too many Anglicans in the U.S. that are theologically Roman Catholic, I don't see this having much impact here"....

....Bishop Charles Morley, presiding bishop of the Traditional Protestant Anglican Church, of which St. Andrew's is a member, said the Roman Catholic Church has erred, not only in their living and manner of ceremonies, but also in matters of faith, citing the 19th Article of the 39 Articles of Religion of the Anglican Prayer Book.

"Anglo-Catholics are welcome to leave the Church for Rome. Protestants wish them God-speed," said Morley. "We will continue to serve the Head of the Church Catholic which is no man but the Lord Jesus Christ."

1 posted on 11/02/2009 8:43:52 AM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
Wow. So much ignorance in so short an article.

Just for starters, this could not be more wrong:

Today, the major difference between the Catholic and Anglican faiths is one of form of polity. The way Anglicans carry on their work is by vote, while the pope makes the decisions for the Roman Catholic faithful. Theologically, basic doctrine is congruent, yet, the Catholic Church does not recognize sacraments performed in the Anglican Church.

This is what you get when a reporter tries to understand 500 years of controversy in five minutes.

I will say that there's a lot of potentially useful material in the article, but the reporter completely misunderstands both the structure of and variance within the Anglican Communion.

2 posted on 11/02/2009 8:48:24 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

I think this article underscores a point that has been largely missed in the last few years. That is, those persons who are presented as “Anglo-Catholics” in the media and blogosphere do have theological disagreements with Roman Catholicism. Areas of dispute include Mariology, eschatology and church government. Once we have a firm understanding of what the disputes are, then we will be better prepared to resolve them.


3 posted on 11/02/2009 9:24:19 AM PST by bobjam
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To: bobjam
I think the first and most basic misunderstanding here is that the Anglican Communion has no one 'polity' as that's traditionally understood within a denomination.

"The media and the blogosphere" haven't a clue, because even being inside TEC USA is no guarantee of understanding this mess. You have to be (1) inside TEC; (2) aware of what's going on outside your parish and even your diocese; (3) conversant with the rules of church governance (such as they are) and the workings of General Convention; (4) aware of the historical underpinnings and the philosophical/liturgical/theological fractures within TEC. And even then sometimes it's hard to get a handle on the mess.

"Anglo-Catholics" in the strict (that is to say, theological) sense now have no reason to stay in the Anglican Communion. "Anglo-Catholics-in-name-only" who like 'high' ritual but subscribe to the zany political philosophy of TEC (e.g. Smoky Mary's in NYC) are not leaving under any circumstances -- they have everything they want.

I would not call anybody who has a disagreement with Rome over Mariology or eschatology an "Anglo-Catholic". Moderately high-church, yes. They are in a difficult place right now, because most of the organized alternatives to TEC are evangelical and 'low church' in nature.

Anglo-Catholics who disagree on the mode of church governance do have some historical and philosophical support for their position. I think the establishment of this Apostolic Constitution is a direct attempt to address this -- by providing a structure of fairly autonomous leadership.

This of course solves the problem of . . . if you have an issue on which reasonable minds disagree, who is the final authority? While the details have not been worked out, one presumes that only matters that the Anglican bishops were unable to resolve would go to Rome.

I had young children to raise when GC 2003 happened, and I couldn't wait around while the various factions in our diocese tried to figure out what was going on and where they were headed. Turns out it was a good decision, because it continues to be a complete mess here.

4 posted on 11/02/2009 10:34:00 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

“I would not call anybody who has a disagreement with Rome over Mariology or eschatology an ‘Anglo-Catholic’.”

That’s a big part if my point. The media and blogosphere have labelled any traditional Anglican who takes the liturgy seriously and opposes women priests as an “Anglo-Catholic”. The Evangelical side of it is really not that hostile to the tradionalists. The big depbate is women priests, and on that matter is is the Evangelicals who are divided- many, if not most, who have left ECUSA oppose W.O.


5 posted on 11/02/2009 11:35:54 AM PST by bobjam
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To: bobjam
Exactly right.

The problem is, nobody in the news media will waste the time to try to figure this story out. It's too complicated and affects too few people.

I'm convinced the "77 million" number is total malarky, and especially the 2 million members claimed by the American church. I'm suspicious of that number because NONE of us who have left TEC since 2003 (whether for Rome or anywhere else) have been able to get our names removed from the rolls. They keep members by the simple expedient of refusing to do anything with your letters but transfer them to another TEC church. About the only way you can get out is by having your letters transferred to a sympathetic parish and have the rector quietly drop you from his rolls.

It's like the old "Plain Truth" magazine - once you're on their mailing list, you will NEVER get off.

6 posted on 11/02/2009 11:44:58 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - (recess appointment))
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To: Alex Murphy
To put things in real perspective, assuming all 400,000 cross over (highly doubtful), that number represents half a percent (that's right, 0.5% or 1 in 200) of all Anglicans in the world (77 million). That means a congregation of 200, on average, will lose one parishioner (at best)!

Chances are, those who do decide to make the switch will be fewer than 400,000 (based on historically inflated estimates of this kind). Which means that, in the "worst" case, 99.5% of current Anglicans will stay put. Talk about hyped-up useless news!

7 posted on 11/02/2009 12:08:56 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: kosta50
You can't average it per congregation. Anglo-Catholics tend to cluster.

What's going on here is a way out for high churchers who have no doctrinal disagreements with Rome (the Cardinal Newman wing) but did not want to give up not only their distinctly Anglican liturgy but also their form of governance.

And while their numbers are admittedly small (it's been a LONG time since you had to convert to the Episcopal Church once you were promoted to manager or partner), if the Good God marks a sparrow's fall and looks for the hundredth sheep he will certainly concern himself with even ONE repentant Episcopalian!

8 posted on 11/02/2009 12:15:26 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - (recess appointment))
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To: kosta50
To put things in real perspective, assuming all 400,000 cross over (highly doubtful), that number represents half a percent (that's right, 0.5% or 1 in 200) of all Anglicans in the world (77 million). That means a congregation of 200, on average, will lose one parishioner (at best)!

Chances are, those who do decide to make the switch will be fewer than 400,000 (based on historically inflated estimates of this kind). Which means that, in the "worst" case, 99.5% of current Anglicans will stay put. Talk about hyped-up useless news!

Which begs the question, is it the Anglicans or the Catholics who are hyping this agreement (and why)?

9 posted on 11/02/2009 12:39:58 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" - Job 13:15)
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To: AnAmericanMother

When everyone in my parish left to build a new place, one of the last things the staff did was the purge the membership roles of everyone who hadn’t been coming in the last few years. That way the diocese couldn’t claim them as members. The actual Anglican Communion membership is closer to 55 million. That figure is based on average Sunday attendance.


10 posted on 11/02/2009 1:37:26 PM PST by bobjam
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To: AnAmericanMother
if the Good God marks a sparrow's fall and looks for the hundredth sheep he will certainly concern himself with even ONE repentant Episcopalian!

If God does that, then there's no doubt he will concern himself with even ONE repentant Episcopalian. However, if, as you say, the High Church Anglicans have "no doctrinal disagreement" with the Catholic Church, and everything boils down to mere church governance and liturgical form, where is the need for any repentance?!? IOW, what are they repenting from if there is no doctrinal disagreement?

11 posted on 11/02/2009 2:39:38 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: Alex Murphy
Which begs the question, is it the Anglicans or the Catholics who are hyping this agreement (and why)?

Conservative Catholics see Anglican converts as likely allies, so obviously we're excited. People who take incense and Palestrina over Marty Haugen on the guitar are always welcome.

12 posted on 11/02/2009 3:07:05 PM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Alex Murphy
Which begs the question, is it the Anglicans or the Catholics who are hyping this agreement (and why)?

Naturally, the Catholics are and quite understandably so. First, it's a novelty. Second, the prosepct of having married (western rite) clergy is probably appealing too, because it opens up the gate for married Latin clergy on a regular basis. This move probably isn't intended to do that but that will be one of the fallouts.

While I can't blame the Catholics for being ecstatic about even this small reversal of Protestant Reformation, I believe this will be a costly move in terms of long-term fallout. The Catholics, in my opinion, do not understand that the Church's worst enemy is modernism and keeping up with fads.

The Church must be supertempral and suprasociatal, unaffected by earthly matters; otherwise is ceases to be a divine and become secular institution with a religious façade.

13 posted on 11/02/2009 3:53:42 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: kosta50
From having been associated with a nest of heretics for far too long, that's what.

The handwriting has been on the wall for decades. Some of us just were fairly content and isolated in our own parishes and didn't care to rock the boat. Some of us had a long tradition in the Anglican Communion (in my case, six generations).

Being "unequally yoked with an unbeliever" is never a good idea.

14 posted on 11/02/2009 5:10:43 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - (recess appointment))
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To: kosta50
You'll find that the sort of Anglican Catholic who wades the Tiber is FAR more likely to be less devoted to modernism than your average Catholic. Quite the opposite.

In fact, the modernists in the Catholic Church are screeching bloody murder because they fear (and rightly so, in my opinion), that the Anglo-Catholics are going to bring with them orthodoxy, decorum, a disdain for earthly concerns, and (dearest to MY heart) good music. They will be an influence for good against happy-clappy services, ad-libs during the Consecration, guitars, Marty Haugen, and liturgical 'dance', as well as fuzzy theology and feminist silliness.

And I doubt it will be the thin end of the wedge for married priests that some think it will be. That has already been made clear. A bunch of Anglo-Catholic priests are celibate anyhow (not all by any means, but they are aware of the discipline).

15 posted on 11/02/2009 5:17:57 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - (recess appointment))
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To: bobjam
Yep, ASA is where the rubber meets the road.

TEC would rather not think too hard about that number. It gives them palpitations.

But phantom parishioners on the rolls pay no pledges. If it makes them feel better to claim us, so be it.

But they're still jerks for refusing to drop our names. Neither our former parish nor the bishop would do a thing about it. You're fortunate that you left in a body.

16 posted on 11/02/2009 5:24:34 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - (recess appointment))
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"In God's time we will all be brought together in unity, but until then each church incarnates the love of Christ as the Spirit directs."

What a load of relativist crapola.

17 posted on 11/02/2009 6:07:13 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Anglo-Catholics are going to bring with them orthodoxy, decorum, a disdain for earthly concerns, and (dearest to MY heart) good music. They will be an influence for good against happy-clappy services, ad-libs during the Consecration, guitars, Marty Haugen, and liturgical 'dance', as well as fuzzy theology and feminist silliness

That's all GOOD! The sooner the better. :)

18 posted on 11/02/2009 7:58:43 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: AnAmericanMother
From having been associated with a nest of heretics for far too long, that's what

But that's not the kind of repentance I was thinking of. I imagine the offer is like a weight off their chest, and the anchors being lifted from the bottom of the sea.

19 posted on 11/02/2009 8:01:14 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: Alex Murphy
"American Episcopalians are quite liberal,"

The remaining American Episcopalians are quite liberal, because so many orthodox have already left.

20 posted on 11/03/2009 2:45:53 AM PST by iowamark (certified by Michael Steele as "ugly and incendiary")
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To: Alex Murphy; kosta50
Which begs the question, is it the Anglicans or the Catholics who are hyping this agreement (and why)?

it's hyped up by three categories of people:

1. The Media who are clueless about the details and the history and just like to make headlines that say "Church poaches Anglos" and toss in some Christian-bashing and some pro-gayWords
2. The Pink Mafia who have taken over some Anglican groups and see this as showing the world how little support the pinkos HAVE -- the people who stay in the ECUSA for example are those who just didn't want to leave or who got comfortable with their group but yet have theological misgivings -- THEY will leave now (maybe not to The Church, but they will definitely get a push to leave -- whether they become Catholic or Orthodox or conservative, traditional Protestant doesn't matter at this stage, as long as they vote with their feet and show the pinkos that they aren't winning and
3. Those who have been fighting the pinkos from within their groups and hadn't the heart now have something to say "LOOK -- if you don't reverse these actions, we have a place to go to."
21 posted on 11/03/2009 5:36:07 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca NOW!!!)
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To: bobjam; AnAmericanMother
The actual Anglican Communion membership is closer to 55 million. That figure is based on average Sunday attendance.

I wonder what's the % of those who are from the conservative, orthodox AFRICAN Anglican Church?
22 posted on 11/03/2009 5:36:55 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca NOW!!!)
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To: kosta50
I imagine the offer is like a weight off their chest, and the anchors being lifted from the bottom of the sea.

I can testify that yes, even if you left on your own, that is true! We were so relieved at how kind and welcoming our new rector was to a couple of bedraggled, battered renegade Piskies.

23 posted on 11/03/2009 6:43:31 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - (recess appointment))
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To: Cronos
Actually, we had sort of segued from talking about the Worldwide Anglican Communion to the Anglican/Episcopalian contingent in the U.S.

That church is a special case, because, to paraphrase what Mayor Gibson said about Newark, "wherever the Anglicans are going, TEC will get there first."

This discussion really doesn't involve the African Anglicans, orthodox and conservative as they are, because they are definitely NOT 'high churchers', trending more to the evangelical end of things.

The Oxford Movement, the Ultramontanes, the up-in-the-rafters-with-the-bats - whatever you want to call them - are almost exclusively a phenomenon of England, Canada, the U.S., and Australia.

24 posted on 11/03/2009 6:47:45 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - (recess appointment))
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