Book of Mormon geography articles by Joseph Smith?

Mormon Times ^ | Oct. 30, 2009 | Michael De Groote

[Godzilla]

It was, for its day, as big a book-selling phenomenon as Harry Potter. For decades it was a No. 1 best-selling phenomenon unlike anything seen before in America.

And Joseph Smith loved it.

Or did he?

[Godzilla]

Here is another instance of Joseph Smith taking so one else's work and ideas and making them his own.

[greyfoxx39]

Ping

[Welcome2thejungle]

I am not in the least bit anti-LDS. Nor would I ever think of voting for or against a political candidate because of his or her Mormon faith. Of the Mormons I know—all are deeply religious, God fearing, moral, and absolutely outstanding citizens. The polygamy thing I think is confined to a tiny cult outside the mainstream Mormon church.

Now, that all said, one time several years ago I spent the night at a Marriott Hotel. On the nightstand was a Mormon bible and I skimmed through it. It was very strange. I never saw anything like the stories I saw in the Mormon bible anywhere else. I began to wonder who wrote it and on what basis.

[Reaganesque]

According to Amazon.com, “Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan” was first published in 1841. The Book of Mormon was first published in 1830. Are you suggesting that in writing the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith plagarized a book that wouldn’t be published for another 11 years?

[Godzilla]

Of the Mormons I know—all are deeply religious, God fearing, moral, and absolutely outstanding citizens.

By and large, that is the image projected to the non-mormon public. However, consider Utah with the largest percentage of mormons in the country also has one of the highest levels of depression in the nation. That 'image' may be a cardboard cut out.

The polygamy thing I think is confined to a tiny cult outside the mainstream Mormon church.

Actually, that tiny sect (Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints -FLDS) is practicing polygamy in the same manner as was practiced by all mormonism, starting with Joseph Smith - founder of mormonism - who received a revelation from God in 1831 and published it later in Mormon scripture called Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132 did until it was forced stop the practice in 1870 when President Wilford Woodruff issued his famous Manifesto essentially saying that this same mormon God had changed his mind regarding polygamy. BTW, Section 132 is still mormon canon and scripture. In truth the FLDS practices a truer mormonism than present day SLC LDS.

I spent the night at a Marriott Hotel. .

Owned by a prominent mormon - also one of the largest purveyor of porn in the country.

It was very strange. I never saw anything like the stories I saw in the Mormon bible anywhere else. I began to wonder who wrote it and on what basis.

For information on how smith received his 'revelation' to write the bom go to this link.

It has been fairly well shown that the themes in the bom are almost word for word those from other writings of the day (and this doesn't include the volumes of KJV bible copied directly). Some of these parallels are found here.

[Godzilla]

Are you suggesting that in writing the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith plagarized a book that wouldn’t be published for another 11 years?

Read the article please, it explains your misconception. That given, it would not be out of character for smith to try to use such material to support 'later revelations'.

[Reaganesque]

I have read the article. Have you? It speaks of two reviews of “Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan.” The author discovered that Joseph Smith wrote the reviews. So? How does that equal plagarism?

[Godzilla]

He stated that “Stephens’ work “corresponds with and supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon.” Unfortunately for smith, he had already been on record stating that the bom lands were in N. America and NY. Interesting that Stephens never cited any egyptian/Hebrew culture being found in central america (for that matter, still no evidence of a hebraic culture has been found in Central America too). So he was willing to take another’s idea and work and try to claim that they support him and his myth.

[Reaganesque]

The majority of the Book of Mormon takes place in Central America. Anyone who has read the book knows this. So the entire basis for your claim is based on a false perception of where the Book of Mormon took place.

[elcid1970]

Calling star Kolob.....calling star Kolob....

Come in Elohim....come in Elohim.....

Halloween is tomorrow. The Smithmas season begins soon after.

[Godzilla]

The majority of the Book of Mormon takes place in Central America. Anyone who has read the book knows this. So the entire basis for your claim is based on a false perception of where the Book of Mormon took place.

LOL, I once had a copy of the bom that had a photo of the Great Lakes stating it is one of the seas mentioned. Other mormons would strenuously disagree with you - such as Ron Meldrum. My, professing smith is the prophet and the bom is real sees the bom lands elsewhere - now who has a false perception. If central america is where this all happens where is the evidence for those bom cities and religion? Show me the professional peer reviewed articles identifying Zarahemla (crickets). Hill Cumorah is located where - Central America or New York State? Was Zelph found by Smith in Central America or USA?

[Godzilla]

Indeed!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Are you suggesting that in writing the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith plagarized a book that wouldn’t be published for another 11 years?”

Well, you claim he was a prophet... :-)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

” I spent the night at a Marriott Hotel. .

“Owned by a prominent mormon - also one of the largest purveyor of porn in the country.

When you stay at the Marriott, carefully take out
the Book of Mormon, open the cover, and in ink, write,

“WARNING: This is a book of cultic literature.”

It will help the next person who picks it up realize
what it is.

ampu

[ejonesie22]

The majority of the Book of Mormon takes place in Central America. Anyone who has read the book knows this

The Hill Cumorah

In the Articles of Faith, written by the apostle, James E. Talmage we read: "The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York, resulting in the destruction of the Nephites as a nation, about 400 A.D. The last Nephite representative was Moroni, who, wandering for safety from place to place, daily expecting death from the victorious Lamanites, wrote the concluding parts of the Book of Mormon, and hid the record in Cumorah. It was the same Moroni who as a resurrected being, gave the records into the hands of Joseph Smith in the present dispensation." Articles of Faith, Ch. 14, Pg. 260.

In chapter seven of his prestigious work, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, the apostle, LeGrand Richards, reaffirms that "Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of New York State."

Obviously the writers of the Articles of Faith and LDS apostle LeGrand Richards have not read the BOM then....

Either that or we have some serious issues, because I don't think the US Geological Survey realizes New York is in Central America....

[ejonesie22]

LOL...

Oh SNAP!

[ejonesie22]

I was thinking just replace it with something by Tolkien or a Harry Potter book, more entertaining and has the same spiritual value...

[Godzilla]

LOL, will have to remember

[Godzilla]

Obviously the writers of the Articles of Faith and LDS apostle LeGrand Richards have not read the BOM then....

yep, they must have been bom illiterates.

[Reaganesque]

Wow! THE Ron Meldrum!!?? I didn’t know that Ron Meldrum had contradicted me!! Holy cow!! I must run and hide in shame!! RON MELDRUM!?!?! WOW!!!!

[ejonesie22]

Or you could cut New York state out of an Atlas and glue it on top of the Yucatan Peninsula and stick it in there...

[ejonesie22]

You know you and I are really missing out being salves to fact and reason.

I mean in doing so we open ourselves up to being wrong to having to put out effort at divining the truth and learning facts.

If we would just become LDS members then we can make up any facts we want any time we want and never be wrong.

It's got to be kinda cool really.

Sadly we have been burdened with ethics and such...

[Reaganesque]

The battle you mention takes place in the last Book of the Book of Mormon. You really haven’t read it all the way through, have you? The Book of Mormon starts in Israel, moves the the New World somewhere in South/Central America and ends with the battle near the Hill Cumorah over 1,000 years later. The majority of the book, however, takes place in Central America.

[Godzilla]

Wow! THE Ron Meldrum!!?? I didn’t know that Ron Meldrum had contradicted me!! Holy cow!! I must run and hide in shame!! RON MELDRUM!?!?! WOW!!!!

Either that or claim that he hasn't read the bom either.

[Godzilla]

The Book of Mormon starts in Israel, moves the the New World somewhere in South/Central America and ends with the battle near the Hill Cumorah over 1,000 years later. The majority of the book, however, takes place in Central America.

Where is hill cumorah - NY or Central America.

Claims to have started in Israel. in the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah. 2nd Kings 24:10-17, documenting that period, says otherwise.

[Reaganesque]

OK, you missed that point as well. Who is Ron Meldrum and why would his opinion be of any relevance?

[ejonesie22]

It has to be great to have goal post on wheels, you can score anywhere...

As an aside, you guys may want to rethink this idea. The more geographic area you cover the harder it gets to explain the total and absolute lack of supporting evidence of any of the cultures and civilizations in the BOM.

For example I have been told that the “climate” destroyed the buildings etc. Well the climate is different all across the two continents so that really doesn't work.

Also I will take it that you are in agreement with others I have read that the current thinking, now that the hunt has moved into central America, that any or all of Aztecs, Mayans etc. are the BOM peoples. So by you logic there should be Mayan, Aztec etc. artifacts in New York, and indeed through out the path they would take moving North.

And yes I have.

[Reaganesque]

Moving the goal posts? The thread started out by implying that Joseph Smith plagarized the Book of Mormon from a book that was published 11 years after the BoM was published and now you’re arguing that the Book of Mormon was set in North America when you know for a fact that it wasn’t and I’m moving the goal posts? Riiight.

[ejonesie22]

And they are motorized too...

I really am missing out...

I bet I could ace a geography class at BYU.

Question: New York is located in:

A. North America.

B. Central America.

C. Anywhere you need it to be.

D. All of the above.

BTW that was nit the contention that Godzilla was making, he told you that.

Of course you knew it from the get go because you are the one who came up with the idea...

[ejonesie22]

As much as I hate to use Wiki, this is supported with citations and it really puts things in perspective:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church)—the largest of the Latter Day Saint churches that use the Book of Mormon—has no official position on the geography of the Book of Mormon, nor is there currently any official claim of correspondence between the hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon and the hill in New York.[4] Numerous LDS Church authorities have, in the past, indicated that Cumorah of the Book of Mormon resides in the Finger Lakes region of western New York.[5] It is argued that LDS scripture locates Cumorah in this region.[6] In an 1842 letter to the Church that has been canonized into LDS Church scripture, Joseph Smith stated that the church had received, “the gospel…truth out of the earth…glad tidings from Cumorah”.[7] Joseph Smith does not specifically refer to the Hill Cumorah in his September 6th, 1842 epistle.[8]

In the 20th Century, RLDS and later LDS scholars, speculated that the Book of Mormon’s Hill Cumorah resides in southern Mexico, Central America or South America.[9] Some Mormons embrace the hypothesis that Cumorah resides somewhere other than western New York.[10] More than one general authority of the LDS Church has publicly opposed the hypothesis.[11]

Having analyzed Joseph Smith’s writings, mainstream scholars who specialize in 19th century American literature, place the original literary setting for the Book of Mormon among the mythic mound builder (people) of North America.[12] Accepting the mound builder setting, at least one LDS researcher has pointed out that no proposed Central of South American setting for the Book of Mormon is likely to be accepted by mainstream academia as a legitimate representations of the works literary setting.[13]

OK.

So a hill where Joesph Smith tells us he got the plates cannot be found, and is a point of debate among many in the LDS itself. Furthermore there are some who now think it is in Cnertal America.

Ok.

Let me get this straight.

The prophet went there, but no one can find it now, and it is not simply a question of exactly what hill he might have climbed/found/ whatever among a few similar hills in a very specific area, but a hill somewhere between New York and South America.

So either Maroni was lost, Smith was a fast runner or...

My brain hurts...

[Elsie]

The polygamy thing I think is confined to a tiny cult outside the mainstream Mormon church.

IT's not a cult.

It is the TRUE MORMON group.

The SLC folks apostized in 1890 when they QUIT following GOD's commands found here:

---

 

 

 

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 132

 

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26–27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

 

---

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye dammed; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?

10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?

11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?

12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.

13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.

14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be dammed, saith the Lord.

28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery.

43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.

44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.

45 For I have conferred upon you the keys and power of the priesthood, wherein I restore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.

46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.

47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will curse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.

48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you give any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.

49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the bend of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father.

50 Behold, I have seen your sacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.

51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.

57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for Satan seeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his exaltation and glory.

58 Now, as touching the law of the priesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.

59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him.

60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfill the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.

66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

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The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
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[Elsie]

Anyone who has read the book knows this.

Sould be quite easy to PROVE.

Post the BoM Scripture that give the evidence.

[ejonesie22]

Support an argument?

That's crazy talk...

[Elsie]

Halloween is tomorrow. The Smithmas season begins soon after.

Deconstructing Linus: Portrait of a True Believing Pumpkinist as a Young Man

What does the Great Pumpkin offer Linus? Why does Linus spend every Halloween in the pumpkin patch, waiting for the Great Pumpkin to appear? Is it about the toys?

"Each year on Halloween night, the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch that he thinks is the most sincere and flies through the air with his pack of toys for all the good little children in the world."

No. This is about sincerity, a subjective standard by any definition.

I wonder if Linus blames himself every year for not picking the most sincere pumpkin patch for his vigil?

I wonder if other Great Pumpkinists castigate Linus by asserting if he were more in tune with the Spirit of the Great Pumpkin, if he were more prayerful, if he read the Holy Writ of the Great Pumpkin with a greater sincerity, that he could indeed rise to the challenge and, via the Spirit, be lead to choose the most sincere pumpkin patch?

I wonder how many years Linus will feel guilty for this failure and blame himself for receiving no answer no matter how sincere he believes himself to be?

I wonder if Linus ever gets frustrated because there is no objective way to measure sincerity? And if he realizes there is no objective standard for such a thing, I wonder if it ever creeps into his mind that his annual mission is nothing more than mindless busywork?

I wonder, does Linus ever has doubts?

For the time being, however, Linus will put aside his doubts and, perhaps as a means of proving his sincerity, begins to proselyte among his friends for converts. Most shrug him off. But Sally, who has a crush on him, believes Linus and agrees to spend Halloween in Linus’ Pumpkin Patch.

Linus then explains that by using positive language and positive thinking, they may be able to attract the Great Pumpkin to their Patch. He also cautions Sally that negative language and negative thinking will cause the Great Pumpkin to pass them by.

There is no room for doubt when one is a Great Pumpkinist. One should never say if the Great Pumpkin comes but always when the Great Pumpkin comes. "One little slip like that, can cause the Great Pumpkin to pass you by!" It’s hard to imagine a benevolent icon such as the Great Pumpkin punishing TBPs (True Believing Pumkinists) for such a minor infraction, but there you have it.

Sally: The Birth of an Ex-Pumpkinist

Because Sally loves her “sweet baboo” Linus, she sets aside her own Halloween plans of trick-or-treating and a Halloween party in order to spend the evening in the Pumpkin Patch. She converts to Great Pumpkinism because she loves Linus. She respects his opinion. And she wants to make him happy and be supportive. And besides, if it’s really true, WOW! Wouldn’t that be fantastic?

But in the end, the only Being that shows up in the Pumpkin Patch is Snoopy. Linus, believing Snoopy to be the Great Pumpkin, swoons into an ecstatic faint, happy in the knowledge that he has finally deciphered the Great Pumpkin’s standard for sincerity. But, alas, it is a misplaced hope, and when Linus regains consciousness, there is not only no Great Pumpkin there to reward him, there is one upset little girl.

"I was robbed! I spent the whole night waiting for the Great Pumpkin when I could have been out for tricks or treats! Halloween is over and I missed it! You blockhead! You kept me up all night waiting for the Great Pumpkin and all that came was a beagle!"

"I didn't get a chance to go out for tricks or treats! And it was all your fault! I'll sue! What a fool I was. And I could have had candy apples and gum! And cookies and money and all sorts of things! But no, I had to listen to you! You blockhead. What a fool I was. Trick or treats come only once a year. And I missed it by sitting in a pumpkin patch with a blockhead. You owe me restitution!"

Luckily for Sally, she only missed one Halloween. And though she is demanding restitution, because her participation was voluntary, she will never receive said restitution. She’ll simply have to accept the experience as one of life’s absurdities and move on.

However, one can hope that this experience has made Sally a more skeptical person, so that the next time she is presented with such fantastic claims, she’ll perhaps be inclined to do her research before committing any time, money or emotion.

After all, fantastic claims should be supported by fantastic evidence, right?

The question now becomes, has this experience made Linus a skeptic? After yet again not having his Pumpkin Patch recognized as sincere and after having endangered his friendship with Sally, will he continue to believe?

In spite of a complete and utter lack of evidence pointing to the existence of the Great Pumpkin, and a complete and utter lack of the Great Pumpkin’s Promise ever having been fulfilled, Linus is a True Believing Pumpkinist to the core. To even admit the possibility that he may be wrong would be to negate all those years of hard work and sincere belief. Linus simply cannot turn his back on his belief.

So if Linus doesn't become an ex-Pumpkinist, what is his strategy? Well, he’s going to keep on trying, isn't he?

"What do you mean, 'stupid'? Just wait until next year. I'll find a pumpkin patch, and I'll sit in that pumpkin patch and it'll be a sincere pumpkin patch, and the Great Pumpkin will come! Just you wait and see! I'll sit in that pumpkin patch, and I'll see the Great Pumpkin. Just wait until next year!"

 

 

[Reaganesque]

The Hill Cumorah is in the state of NY. There is a monument on top of it and a visitor’s center at the bottom. Each year a pagent is held commemorating the discovery of the Book of Mormon.

As I stated earlier, the Hill Cumorah is mentioned only in the final book of the Book of Mormon. A people can spread out widely in 1,000 years, particularly when one people is working to wipe out another.

You are correct that the church does not officially claim that the Book of Mormon lands were in Central America. However, given the descriptions in the Book of Mormon, Central America is the best fit. As to the unnamed LDS who think the Hill Cumorah is somewhere else, I have never met one in my entire 45 years. And citing the RLDS, a group that broke off from the church with their own ideas about the Gospel, is like citing Protestant scholars on the subject of Catholicism.

[Godzilla]

Who is Ron Meldrum and why would his opinion be of any relevance?

Didn't miss your point but did find a typo of the first name. It is Rod Meldrum is a LDS apologist who champions the North American Geographists theory of the bom lands.

BookofMormonEvidence.org

Then again, Hemispheric Geographists claim to have read the bom in great detail too

Perhaps others who suggest Malay Peninsula as the location for the bom lands. They are mormons in good standing too and I presume have studied the bom as well.

Now add the group you appear to support - limited Geographists - that makes 4 different interpretations of the bom from mormons in good standing who claim the common experience of reading the bom and testifying that it is true. So it appears other mormons do not share the same opinion of the bom lands as you. Goes back to the first question - where is Hill Cumorah located -NY or Central America?

[Elsie]

Who is Ron Meldrum and why would his opinion be of any relevance?

There you go with OPINION.

Try some FACTS now and then.

[Elsie]

...you know for a fact that it wasn’t...

I want to see those FACTS!!

[Ripliancum]

Well said. The BoM take place almost entirely within Central America. It was only toward the end when the people started migrating northward. The final battle of Cumorah took 4 years to gather the people at Cumorah, all the while fleeing and fighting as they traveled northward.

Joseph Smith always taught a hemispheric model in this regard. Meldrum’s claims to a Great Lakes model is without merit, and it certainly isn't in accord with what has been and is taught.

...so, might I add, are some accusations here. Anyone who has actually read the BoM to the end would know all this. Frankly, I'm not sure it's worth your time arguing this here. The agenda here seems pretty clear.

[Godzilla]

The thread started out by implying that Joseph Smith plagarized the Book of Mormon from a book that was published 11 years after the BoM was published and now you’re arguing that the Book of Mormon was set in North America when you know for a fact that it wasn’t and I’m moving the goal posts? Riiight.

Get the thread correct R. I stated that Smith was continuing to take ideas from other sources NOT that the source was used for the bom. Sheesh , moving goal posts indeed - cannot even get the gist of the thread correct

[ejonesie22]

A people can spread out widely in 1,000 years, particularly when one people is working to wipe out another.

And leave nothing behind not even a shred of pottery? (or a sword or a building or even DNA...)

[ejonesie22]

Well the Hill Cumorah gift shop is in New York.

The North American one.

[ejonesie22]

Me smells a retread...

[ejonesie22]

The agenda here seems pretty clear.

Yes, yes it is.

There very much is an agenda here.

The number one agenda item is called the truth...

You will find many of us partial to it as well...

[Godzilla]

It was only toward the end when the people started migrating northward. The final battle of Cumorah took 4 years to gather the people at Cumorah, all the while fleeing and fighting as they traveled northward.

One of the key components of the limited geography theory includes TWO hill cumorahs (sorenson and palmer).

Now, if it is so obvious, why the total absence of archaeological support? Please refer me to a peer-reviewed article claiming the presence of a hebraic or egyptian influenced/based society with advanced metallurgical technology co-existing with the Mayan and other Amerindian groups in Central America.

[Godzilla]

Will be interesting to see where Hill Cumorah is located.

[ejonesie22]

Not only that, but let us assume a running battle between peoples from Central America up though the North American Continent.

Certainly the oral histories of at least some of the tribes in say Texas, Missouri, Kentucky etc. would have mentioned that large of a group of “alien” people running through their territory.

Certainly Mayan, Incan or Aztec like artifacts would be found some where along the path or at the place of the final battle (using those cultures as the basis as the LDS has started to do.)

There would be something...

[ejonesie22]

That is what is so funny.

They have a Hill Cumorah, complete with a gold Maroni statue, but legitimate Mormon scholars in good standing are still looking for it.

And one wonders why the LDS comes under such scrutiny.

[Godzilla]

Assume multiple millions died in one massive battle on and around Hill Cumorah NY - where are the artifacts?

Where are the Mayan stories of these events, as millions being killed and fighting a war in there territory would certainly be noticed and documented.

[Godzilla]

They have a Hill Cumorah, complete with a gold Maroni statue, but legitimate Mormon scholars in good standing are still looking for it.

lol