Posted on 10/28/2009 8:00:40 AM PDT by markomalley
[UPDATE: Lambeth Palace has denied reports that there is to be an emergency meeting of Church of England bishops to discuss the Pope's offer tomorrow.]
Here’s what I think Dr Rowan Williams is most worried about as the reality of the Pope’s offer sinks in: the prospect of the Bishop of Chichester and many of his clergy signing up to the new Ordinariate.
Bishop John Hind put out a statement today which denies that he is about to become a Roman Catholic. Read between the lines, though. It doesn’t mean that he won’t join the new Papal structure in the months or years ahead. On the contrary: he seems to me to be hinting that he will. To say that he would be prepared to accept “re-ordination” to the Catholic priesthood is a major concession. In return, he doesn’t want to have to declare that his previous orders were invalid. But he wouldn’t have to – either because the Vatican would require no such declaration, or because he would be ordained conditionally (ie, accepting the possibly that his existing orders may be valid because they are in an Orthodox or Old Catholic line of succession).
(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.telegraph.co.uk ...
Words have consequences Dr. Williams. After you publicly fawned over Islam and sharia in England - people were finally convinced you are an idiot and a dhimini.
It's all so speculative at this point.
Interesting. We have been discussing the reason for the conditional ordination on another forum, and it never occurred to me that it was probably to spare the feelings of the entering Anglicans. If so, it was a great move. Don't humiliate them, just go ahead and do what needs to be done.
Will the good priests come to Rome and the moderate/bad priests stay?
I’m not quite ready for the popcorn, though, for I judge this to be a very serious matter.
“Don’t humiliate them, just go ahead and do what needs to be done”
The re-ordination prospect is a bigger issue for Anglicans than many Catholics (the Pope included) realize. It is one thing for Rome to question some of the processes that occurred half a millenium ago. However, the words “Completely null and utterly void” came across as a profound insult. The message received by Anglican clergy is that everything they have done in a lifetime of ordained ministry is garbage.
A viable work around may be to have a reception ceremony rather than ordination ceremony with a Roman bishop. The candidate would initially be recognized as a priest of the Anglican Communion. He would then declare his acceptance and belief in all dogmas of the Roman Church. The bishop would then lay hands on him and ask the Holy Spirit to make this Anglican priest into a priest of the Roman Catholic Church. The goal is to satisfy Rome’s concerns over Anglican validity while at the same time recognizing that the individual is already faithful minister in the Lord’s service.
Maybe somebody could arrange a hostage exchange. ;-)
LOL
They aren’t faithful ministers of his word. That’s the problem.
I cannot ordain someone and I cannot ordain myself and be a priest, without apostolic succession. Anglican priests must understand the true horror of the breach with Rome, and the consequences thereof.
By no means does it mean their works have been fruitless, it just means, you aren’t a priest! The chain must be functioning.
I say don’t water it down. Make it a bold ceremony and welcome all of these priests into life in the church!
The only problem is that Anglican orders are invalid, in reality, not just in appearance, because the line of succession was broken around the time of Elizabeth I. There is only one priesthood, and that is the one that is conferred by a bishop who is in the line of Apostolic Succession. However, some later priests were ordained through Old Catholic bishops, who are validly consecrated although in schism, and their line is valid. But the rest are not validly ordained, which is an objective condition.
I think the Pope is very aware of the problem, since it has been one of the biggest issues in discussions with the Anglicans for years. He didn’t do this in a void, and has had a lot of discussion with the TAC groups, so I think everybody is pretty realistic about it and realizes that this is the cost of rectifying the situation once and for all. The conditional ordination of all of the Anglicans is probably the best way around it, but without forcing any sort of statement, because, as you say, those who had the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, etc. no doubt thought at the time that their ordination was valid.
But it really is a moment where everything has to be reexamined and reaffirmed, since many Anglicans actually do not share the Catholic belief in Transubstatiation, the Real Presence, etc. The ordination of these men, I think, gives the Church a chance to make sure everyone is on the same page and even gives the incoming priests a chance to refine and reaffirm their understanding of the priesthood. It could be good all around.
As I understand it, when The Church of England broke the relationship with Rome, everything and every clerical remained in place. Bishops who had been consecrated before, priests and deacons who had been ordained, the religious - all who had become who they were during the RC days remained the same under English authority. They used the same churches, cathedrals, monasteries and convents as well. For the worshiper there was no change except the language heard was in English, not Latin. Apostolic succession continued though the bishops already linked to Peter..
“As I understand it, when The Church of England broke the relationship with Rome, everything and every clerical remained in place.”
No, you’ve not understood. Henry VIII confiscated everything that the Church owned, all the monasteries, cathedrals, everything was stripped away. If you were a Catholic priest you could be executed, and many fled. There was no functioning diocesan structure for centuries, until they were finally restored in the 19th century after Catholic Emancipation.
Those who were Catholic priests who abandoned the church, at that point in time, they are no longer valid bishops. For example, the archbishop of Canterbury was not a bishop of the Catholic church. He had received his holy orders in 1520, before the breach, but he was simply a priest and not a bishop. For this reason any, and all orders he conferred are invalid.
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