'The fear of the Lord' (Short Video)

World Net Daily ^ | October 20, 2009 | Richard Rives

[bogusname]

What does "fear the Lord" mean? Richard Rives explains that it is the acknowledgment that God's laws are still in effect and are to be followed.

[Safrguns]

He screwed it up.... started out good, and then suggested that Jesus Sacrifice was just applicable to “past” sins.

This of course can only lead to a doctrine of salvation by works... mixing Jesus sacrifice with man’s righteousness.

yes... the Law IS still in effect.
You reap what you sew.
But he fails to mention there are two types of death... and mixing the two together is nothing but a cocktail for legalism.

[bogusname]

Ok, well I watched it over again just in case, by some chance, I missed something. He is not saying that your sins are forgiven up to the point that you’re saved and then you buy your salvation from then on out by good works/obedience. He merely quoted Hebrews 10:26 and you took it to mean salvation through works.
So I went to a site that explains what that verse means and here is quote regarding that verse.
“Hebrews 10:26-29 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, right up to the edge of saving belief, who hear and understand the Gospel, and are on the verge of saving faith, but then reject what they have learned and turn away. These are people who are perhaps even aware of their sin and even make a profession of faith. But rather than going on to spiritual maturity, their interest in Christ begins to diminish, the things of the world have more attraction to them rather than less, and eventually they lose all desire for the things of God and they turn away.”

[GOP Poet]

bookmark

[ladyL]

Thank you for clearing that up. Those of us who have stepped back and taken a fresh look at traditional Christianity have been hurt, dismayed and angered by what has been perpetuated by the professional clergy as Biblical Christianity. It is not. Richard Reves and many others had used historical scholarship and objective facts to show how the Roman religion today is man made and far from the Hebrew Faith of the Apostles and Early Believers. We have been hoodwinked but hundreds of thousands of Believers are waking up. Those that hold onto the Roman religion become very defensive and angry till they can process through using the facts that have now been released to the Body of Christ. Truth will spur all of us on.

[bogusname]

GBY

[LetMarch]

For many years I have a key verse (for me)that is in Proverbs 16:6:

“By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.”

Just think, How much evil would be eliminated if men learned to fear the LORD, by that, he seeks to obey and honor God, knowing we are not only accountable in this life, but throughout all eternity.

John 1:17 comes to mind; “For the law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.:

[LetMarch]

Excellent!!!

I have been restudying:

“Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth” by Dr. C. I Scofield, it is old but refreshing, for me to restudy it all, but especially “Law and Grace” and the “Believers Two Natures,” and “The Believer’s Standing and State.”

I highly recommend it if you can find a copy.

[bogusname]

I have the Scofield Study Bible and I will get a copy of that as well. Thanks

[bogusname]

If the world would believe God it would fix everything.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[American Constitutionalist]

The author of the book of Hebrews gives a dire warning to those who first accepted Jesus as Savor, but later turned back and followed the ways of the Jewish leaders to atone for their sins.
This is for those who believe in salvation by works, for first trusted in Jesus for their salvation then went on and trusted in their works to save them.
They also believe that after you get saved that ? if anyone sins after they have received the gift of salvation that sins still have to be punished ( as if Jesus would have to go back up on the cross again ) .. or add onto what Jesus has already done,
Jesus's atonement + works , in other words ?
considering Jesus's blood as nothing, trampling his blood underfoot.
The thing is ? all our sins have been atoned for, they all have been punished, past and future sins in the body of Jesus Christ.
Works salvation is man's way to God, man's effort, it is " MAN CENTERED " salvation.
Jesus Christ is the only way, Jesus Christ is God's way to God, it is not man centered.
Salvation by Grace is God's way, man could never be able to live up to God's standards no matter how much man tries.
And, yes, there are those tho say that salvation by grace gives people a license to sin, no it does not, even if you live by salvation by works, you are still sinning, still in your sins.
Moses said " Those who live by the law, shall die by the law "
Jesus came to fulfill the law to it's utter end so we won't have to be held under it's penalty.
Those who say that salvation by grace gives people a license to sin, well, they still sin just as much and even more so.
If they live by salvation by works ?
where is there atonement ?
because they have trampled the blood of Jesus under their feet and considered it as common, as nothing, when they add their works to it.
Those who live by salvation by works like to throw this bible verse at those who live by salvation by grace:

( Hebrews chapter 10 verses 25-27

25. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. )

and then, if they ( those who believe in salvation by Grace ) sin, they are condemned forever with no hope of salvation,
but ?????
if you read the WHOLE chapter, is that what Hebrews chapter 10 is saying ?
It says, those who were " Enlightened " i.e. Born Again, Saved,, then, went back and trusted in another way to salvation, or another atonement, or another sacrifice, this is what the author of Hebrews is trying to explain here.

(King James Version)

Hebrews 10

1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God.
He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13. From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21. And having an high priest over the house of God;
22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Here is another Bible chapter that talks about going and relying on the law to save you.


Do the Salvation by Works believers frustrate the Grace of God ???
(King James Version)

Galatians 2

1. Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2. And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
3. But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4. And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5. To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7. But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8. (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9. And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10. Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
11. But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15. We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Ohhh foolish salvation by works believers that you should not OBEY the truth and received you the spirit by works of the law ?
(King James Version)

Galatians 3

1. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4. Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Jesus Christ is God's once and for all Atonement for ALL sins for humans, there is no other sacrifice that God will accept, God only accepts Jesus Christ sacrifice on the cross, Jesus blood, there is no other.
For those who trust in their own self righteousness's, and salvation by works are dead in their sins, since they trust in their own righteous deeds and self righteousness, God will not accept it.... it stinks in God's nose.
When they add their self righteiousness to what Jesus has done on the cross, they have trampled the blood of Jesus under their feet and considered it as nothing.

[Safrguns]

Ok, well I watched it over again just in case, by some chance, I missed something. He is not saying that your sins are forgiven up to the point that you’re saved and then you buy your salvation from then on out by good works/obedience.

At 1:30 in the video, he quotes scripture saying that "Jesus laid down His life to pay the penalty for sins that are passed". He then goes on to reference the Gift of the Holy Spirit as the means by which we are empowered to lead a righteous life from that point forward. He then quotes scripture (Heb 10:26) saying that if we continue to willfully sin, "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins". See the video at time marker 1:50.

His interpretation of Hebrews 10:26 is incorrect in assuming that this verse is talking about someone who has been saved and then willfully practices sin. It is actually talking about someone who has received the truth of salvation (has been witnessed to) and rejects the offer in favor of their lifestyle of sin.

[Lee N. Field]

(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...

Worldnetdaily.

Q:Why do I suspect that this will be either just kooky, or a positive spiritual danger?

A:Past experience.

[bogusname]

In either case there is no point of argument. If God deals more harshly with those that know the truth and brings trouble down upon them for for their evil witness, it is even so correct. Consider Jonah who was indeed saved and called upon by God but who disobeyed and was punished. He didn’t lose his salvation but suffered for the error of his ways.

[Safrguns]

>>> In either case there is no point of argument. If God deals more harshly with those that know the truth and brings trouble down upon them for for their evil witness, it is even so correct.

My argument was that the speaker in the video gets it wrong when it comes to “Fear of the Lord”... In that his message suggests that a born again christian can lose his salvation.

As for “dealing more harshly” with people for their sins based upon their salvation status, I would have to disagree. The law applies to all of mankind equally. The issue of WHEN someone reaps what they have sewn, from simple carnal consequence (sickness) to the ultimate consequence (physical death), is NOT guided SIMPLY by how good or bad we have been. (re-emphasis on WHEN)

God has His plans for each of us and for His Glory. He uses ALL things for good... even if they are bad. Our obedience DOES directly affect the blessings we receive in this life AND in the hereafter. Likewise, our disobedience can ultimately lead directly to our physical death. But God promises us that NO ONE can snatch us from His hand.

From our perspective, I would have to agree that God DOES deal more swiftly with those who belong to Him... because yes... more is at stake. That does not mean that His judgment is more harsh on us, just more timely.

[bogusname]

You seem to be so worried about someone saying that you can lose your salvation that you’re ready to fight even if you’re not sure they really said it. Listen, you can’t secure your salvation by fighting for it either. Your behavior betrays your insecurity. No preacher can steal your salvation and if he says he can it will do you no good to scream and yell at him or about him. Christ has already won the struggle. He doesn’t need your misguided help. If you have the title deed you don’t have to keep screaming you’re the owner. It’s rather immature and I’m guessing you esteem yourself as a righteous debater and possibly also imagine yourself as being called, like Paul, to do so.
As your brother in Christ let me just tell you to hold your fire Safrguns. You are shooting at your own side and not helping us at all in our war with the enemy.
I’m on your side so either put your gun down or point it at the enemy. Your name “safrguns” is appropriate as you have so perfectly demonstrated that some folks just don’t know how to handle them properly.
They can’t hit the right target because they’re afraid (of losing salvation)and thus shoot with their eyes closed.

Mellow out Safrguns! LOL My goodness, you’ll be ok. Christ promised so no one can change it or help it including Safrguns.

Later

[Safrguns]

>>> You seem to be so worried about someone saying that you can lose your salvation that you’re ready to fight even if you’re not sure they really said it.

It doesn’t worry me... it makes me angry. And he DID say it... subtly. btw... its not the messenger... its the message that makes me angry... because I understand the bondage that it puts the christian under, and the witness that it destroys. Non believers look at christians as hypocrits because of this doctrine... and for christians that believe you can lose it, it can only lead to spiritual pride or faith destroying guilt. Hardly the example that leads the lost to Christ.

Also, I was not fighting with you. You said yourself that we agree on the doctrine of eternal security, and I was just clarifying what we agree upon. I simply disagreed with something else you said about punishment... and yet I was agreeing with what you said about punishment.
It was a minor point intended to augment what you were saying... not destroy it. Please read again.

I don’t understand what makes you think I am insecure about the issue. You may be overreacting to my disagreement.

Please isolate my words that convinced you I was “shooting at you”. I would like to know what set you off.

[bogusname]

ROTFL I’m not set off. Enough said Safrguns. We’re on the same side. You do good to make efforts to uphold sound doctrine and stop what you perceive as false doctrine. Some people may have taken the same way you did. Keep up the good work. God Bless You.

[American Constitutionalist]

Those who live and believe that their own self righteous ( man's pride ) will save them, and believe in a salvation by works are in effect sinning.
As far as God is concerned in his point of view, they are ( according to Matthew Henry's Commentary ) resiting and rejecting him :

Matthew Henry ( V. There was a time fixed and foretold by the great God, and that time had now come, when these legal sacrifices would be no longer accepted by him nor useful to men.
God never did desire them for themselves, and now he abrogated them; and therefore to adhere to them now would be resisting God and rejecting him.
This time of the repeal of the Levitical laws was foretold by David (Ps. xl. 6, 7), and is recited here as now come.
Thus industriously does the apostle lay low the Mosaical dispensation. ) .....

God only had a sacrifice once and for all time, Jesus Christ, and there is no need for a 2nd time sacrifice.
God hates their own self righteous ( Salvation by works salvation ) acts and deeds to gain their salvation.
God abrogated them :
( There was a time fixed and foretold by the great God, and that time had now come, when these legal sacrifices would be no longer accepted by him nor useful to men. God never did desire them for themselves, and now he abrogated them ) ..
Matthew Herny Hebrews Chapter 10

Here is a interesting verse, I guess most people never really gave it a 2nd thought, or are not aware of it's meaning.
There are mostly 2 groups of people is this category, there are those who don't believe in " Once saved, always saved " and then, there is a group that believe in " Once saved always saved " ....

Hebrews chapter 10 verse 17-18

( 17 . And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 . Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. ) .....

Jesus Christ sacrifice on the cross was a once and for all, one time atonement, it's done deal.... no more need for a 2nd time, or a 2nd application for those and to those who are saved.
What does " Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering of sin " ..... what does that mean ?
Who are they talking about here " These " ?? the saints ? those who are saved ? or are they talking about the sins as " these " ? .
In the dictionary the word remission means :

1. forgiveness or pardon, as of sins or crimes
2. cancellation of or release from a debt, tax, penalty, etc.
3. a lessening or abating, as of heat or cold, pain, etc.
4. a relatively prolonged lessening or disappearance of the symptoms of a disease

Whatever the author meant as " These " in any case, either the saints, or those who are saved, or the sin themselves, it says, where the remission of these.... so that means, those sins have been pardoned forever, God promised to remember them no more.
What do they mean , and there is no more offering of sin.
What do they mean by that ?
So far in this chapter, the author wants to make the point that Christ's sacrifice was far much better and able to perfect those who it was for, and that it was a once time event.
I dare anyone to debate otherwise in what the author means in this chapter, this is what this whole chapter is about, how much flawed the animal sacrifices were compared to how perfect Jesus Christ's body was and is for our salvation.
Does the author mean ? that ? ... where the remission of these sins ? or for these saint is ? there is no more need for another offering for their sins, past, present, or future sins.
The chapter tells us that the Old Testament sacrifices are of no use anymore, nor will God accept them anymore once Christ gave his body for our salvation.
God hates our own self righteous acts, and deed, or works to gain merit to get our salvation or maintain our salvation, when we add our works, or our own righteousness, it add onto what Christ has already done, and this chapter of Hebrews tell us that it is trampling under foot, to make common, to make it as nothing the blood of Christ when we consider that his blood was not enough to save us, that it had no effect to save us and that our works and self righteousness will save us.

What is the truth ?
Jesus Christ IS truth.
What is the truth of the Gospel ?
That God has given undeserving, rotten, sinful, sinner a way of escape from God's wrath, and wants to love sinners, and give them mercy and grace through Jesus Christ.

[Safrguns]

Thanks... God Bless you too.

I’ll PM you in a minute

[bogusname]

Great Post.

[American Constitutionalist]

Actually, most people should read the whole chapter in context.
GOD considers rejecting his son Jesus Christ the way of salvation, and nothing more, no works, or a human's merit base salvation, nothing but the blood of Jesus.
This author is talking about those Christians who got saved, then, got lead astray by another group who held to Judaism beliefs that you still had to sacrifice bulls, lambs, to still maintain your salvation, and that at that time, after Christ's one and for all, and for ALL sins, past present, and future sins, that GOD REJECTS all other sacrifices , there is no more sacrifices that GOD will accept , nothing but the blood of Jesus, and once those Christians rejects Christ's blood and atonement, that is sin in God's eyes, he hates it, and there is no more offering for sin for them no more, or sacrifice for them for their atonement.
Apostle Paul talks about this clearly in the 1st and 2nd chapter of Galatians.
The only reason why some people, or those who believe in salvation by works don't " GET IT " is because they refuse the hear the truth, or reject the truth... it is clearly stated in the book of Galatians, Paul make's it very clear.

[American Constitutionalist]

" From our perspective, I would have to agree that God DOES deal more swiftly with those who belong to Him... because yes... more is at stake. That does not mean that His judgment is more harsh on us, just more timely. "
God deals with the saints ( those who are saved, Born Again ) .... like his own children.
He corrects us, chastises us as his sons.
In Hebrews chapter 10, what does the author mean by " and where the remission of these is, there is no more offering of sin ?
Also ? why does the Bible tells us, just like what you have said, that Jesus thank the father for giving those lambs to him, and that none of them, no one will be able to snatch them from his hand.... or ? we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
In Romans, there is NOTHING in this world, NOTHING that the angles can do ( God's angles, nor the demons, or ANY created thing ) can separate us from the LOVE of GOD that is in Christ Jesus.
And those who want to argue, Ohh, we can separate ourselves from GOD " how can we separate ourselves ( Eternally ) when we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and that is not done by our own efforts or power ?
Also ? God said that even before either were still on the womb, either having done good nor evil, that God hated Esau, but, loved Jacob ? ..... how can we make GOD not love us , even when he, chose to love us even before the foundation of this world was created.
In eternity past, God made a decree, that he chose to love us, it was his will.
Those who believe in that we can lose our salvation, or that some how, our self righteous acts, or deed, or work can add onto what Jesus has already done to " EARN " our salvation, is a man centered salvation ( of the flesh ) and God hates it, God rejects it.
Those who live in a salvation by works salvation are still in their sins, they are " Proud " of their acts, works, ... GOD resist the proud, but, give grace to the humble.
There is a story that Jesus gave us, the 2 men in the temple.
The first man was a self righteous " Religious " leader, who looked down on the sinner in disgust and said " I am glad I am not like him ( i.e. them ) ....
Then, the humble sinner pounded his chest and said to God, " GOD ?? HAVE MERCY ON ME A SINNER " .... and Jesus said ? who walked away more righteous ?
Those who live in a salvation by works salvation, are still in their sin because of their pride, no matter how they look at it, they have not repented of their pride and fallen down for mercy at the feet of Jesus Christ.

God says of man's own self righteousness, that he hates it.
The bible says that our own righteousness is as dirty and stinking ( menstrual rags ) as filthy rags.
God abhores it, God rejects it, our own rightness is rotten, unclean, dead.

[Safrguns]

Nice couple of posts.

How do you answer the charge that we think we can do whatever we want without consequence?... and the countless scriptures that “appear” to suggest just the opposite... that if we continue to sin, then we get hellfire... as the video references?

[American Constitutionalist]

When God looks at what Jesus has done, he sees that the law has been upheld, and fulfilled to it's fullest extent in Jesus Christ.
Yes, there are natural laws, physics, the law of sowing and reaping.
But, when we talk about the " THE LAW " in the bible, it's the law of sin, death, commendation.
God saved us from eternal death, Jesus paid that penalty for not upholding that law, when God sees us ? he sees that the law has been satisfied in the body of Jesus Christ.


Those who live by salvation by works, take the AMAZING out of Amazing Grace.

[American Constitutionalist]

The " FEAR OF THE LORD " means, respect for GOD, honor for GOD, honor his word, in awe of him and what he has done, to act-knowledge him in all our ways, consider his ways, his thoughts.
If you want a total contrast of what the fear of the Lord does not mean, just take a look at the liberals, the main fringe media.

[American Constitutionalist]

" I’m on your side so either put your gun down or point it at the enemy. Your name “safrguns” is appropriate as you have so perfectly demonstrated that some folks just don’t know how to handle them properly. They can’t hit the right target because they’re afraid (of losing salvation)and thus shoot with their eyes closed. "

[American Constitutionalist]

" It doesn’t worry me... it makes me angry. And he DID say it... subtly. btw... its not the messenger... its the message that makes me angry... because I understand the bondage that it puts the christian under, and the witness that it destroys. Non believers look at christians as hypocrits because of this doctrine... and for christians that believe you can lose it, it can only lead to spiritual pride or faith destroying guilt. Hardly the example that leads the lost to Christ. "


The non - believers are going to find fault with Christians no matter how well we live our testimony.
Jesus said, that if they hated him, they will also hate us, so get use to it, but, we win in the end.
We can't " MAKE " someone saved, or born again, Jesus said, that the holy spirit, just like the wind, we do not where the wind comes, or goes, so to, the holy spirit, we do not know whom the holy spirit with touch, or work on.
It is God's job to save, it's our job to lead them to Jesus, and preach the Gospel.

The bible tells us not to get into endless debates, not to waste our time with those who have another doctrine.
God will deal with them, God does not need our help....
Please claim down.... GOD knows, he is in control..
Just take the time, make some ice tea, find a comfortable chair, and relax, think on the good things of GOD, let his love surround you, give you peace.

[bogusname]

LOL That’s a good one. I’m old enough to have seen that movie at the theater when it was brand new.

[American Constitutionalist]

" How do you answer the charge that we think we can do whatever we want without consequence?... and the countless scriptures that “appear” to suggest just the opposite... that if we continue to sin, then we get hellfire... as the video references? "
Yes, there is scriptures that refer to that, but, as some would say, the bible ( I am not making that claim, and I hope God does not hold me accountable of saying this, I am not, it's just a example of what some people say ) it seems, so some, that it contradicts it's self, I do not believe the bible contradicts it's self.
There are many things in the bible I do not understand, no one in the history of this world has ever got hold of the full meaning or mystery of the bible, God will reveal it over time, and to those with a open ear.
That's a good question, how do we reconcile those scriptures that say is we continue in sin that there is hell fire waiting for us, to those scriptures where we are sealed in the holy spirit, that no on will be ever snatched from Jesus hand, that nothing can ever separate us from the love of God, that we are chosen, predestined, that God hated Esau, but, loved Jacob, even before time began, or when they were in the womb having done neither good or evil....
It's a great mystery, isn't it ?
Many believe that the Apostles were perfect, sinless, but, yet, Paul in the 7th chapter of Romans goes on and tells us that he struggles with sin, that when he wants to do good, and not sin, he does it anyway, yes, Paul struggled with ( OHHHHH ,,,, MY !!!! SIN !!! ) ,,,, yup, he was just as human as you and I ....
How do we reconcile what the bible tells us ?
As for now, I look at what I DO know, and believe, and hope and trust that GOD will show me something new every day.
We all can agree, that ALL have sinned, and have come short to the glory of GOD.
Those who say that they don't sin since they gotten saved are liars, they are not being honest with you.
I also cringe at those self righteous " RELIGIOUS " salvation by works believers who say that God's grace does not give us a license to sin, yeah, right, as if they are the ones who are prefect and never sin, we can be assured, that they sin just as much, and even more so>
One they fail to realize ?
They think they are right with GOD by their self righteous deeds, acts, works, but, they fail to repent of their " PRIDE " in their heart, they are still dead in their sins,, so , wouldn't they be in danger of hell fire unless they repent of their self righteous prideful acts, deed, works ?
Most of our sin happens in the heart, Jesus said, even if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, you sin.
Pride of one of the 7 deadly sins, even if they ( those who believe in salvation by works ) think , they are right with GOD, GOD see's and hate their pride, opps a daisy, isn't that the very sin that cause Lucifer to fall ? .... opps a daisy.... can't have that now, can we... but, they fail to see their pride in their self righteousness, and GOD hates that......

[American Constitutionalist]

I have failed to tell you, when I first got saved, I was once a over zealous Christian, who condemned other Christians for even smoking.... until GOD had to humble me, yes, I quit smoking when I first got saved, and I guess, God had to humble me because, I smoke now, and God has not given me the desire to stop smoking.
I do not say I was a Christian who believe in salvation by works, but, I did believe I was saved by grace at the time, and thought after hearing fire and brimstone preaching that I was going to hell if I thought I would sin.
But, GOD had to humble me, and God is still humbling me, it's a process.
Sorry if this is misspelled, but, it's a Greek saying:
Humilious, Humilious, inflextongarius ....
Humble to the Humble, inflexible to the arrogant.
God resist the proud, but, gives grace to the humble.
God has and still teaching me how to have compassion on sinners when they humble themselves.... arrogant people, I fight them, lol, argue with them, but, it's just a waste of time to argue with them until GOD humbles them.

[Soothesayer]

Church affiliation isn’t that important. I know a few Roman Catholics who couldn’t possibly be any holier.

[Safrguns]

lol... wow... I wish I could meet and talk with you in person.
You sound just like me.

yeah... I smoke too.

and yes... shame on me.

It’s a slow form of suicide I know.

[Safrguns]

>>> Please claim [calm] down .... GOD knows, he is in control..
Just take the time, make some ice tea, find a comfortable chair, and relax, think on the good things of GOD, let his love surround you, give you peace.

Please tell me how to do that... my son is currently in a full state of rebellion against me and has adopted Mormonism as his highest pillar of faith... and oh... his mormon girlfriend and peers at school are not helping much either.
His reactive opposition to me is so severe that I hesitate to even speak a truth for fear that he will automatically reject it without even examining it’s substance. Maybe this is God’s way of confirming your counsel... to just shut the hell up and take a chill pill. (intended humorously)

Knowing and feeling are two different things.

Faith is the application of knowledge to feelings i think.

Right now i’m pretty weak in faith, though I know I’m strong in knowledge.

[Soothesayer]

I tend to violate the great commandment nonstop. I am not able to express any gratitude towards God (therefore I am not loving towards him) and I hate over half of humanity.

Hmmmmm I’m screwed.

[ladyL]

I know many wonderful Catholics that have a strong Faith but that is not what I am referring to. ALL churchs, both Catholic and Protestant are products of a Roman man made Religion that literally “made up” the doctrines and traditions of what we have called Christianity. Read about the Nicean Council, google it. See where Christianity as we know it had it's beginning. Christianity is very much different in practice and doctrine than the Hebrew Faith Jesus, Paul and the other Apostles practiced. I am in the process now of turning to that Hebrew Faith. It is difficult.

[Soothesayer]

What is the Hebrew faith that you are talking about? Just what is described in the letters?

[bogusname]

In my estimate, you show some character by hating half of humanity. Somewhere along the line someone invented the faulty notion that Christians are supposed to love everybody. It’s not true. Seeing as how our country is about divided down the middle, with one half being democrats who hate God and country and one half that knows what is right but won’t do it, you show good sense.

None of us is as grateful to God as much as we should be. That is because we have no understanding of just how much He has to do each and every second to keep us from worse circumstances than we’re already in. As humans we also forget every answered prayer and don’t recall the millions of times He’s bailed us out. Likewise, we should also consider that we wouldn’t be alive to exchange posts if He wasn’t allowing it.

[American Constitutionalist]

" Right now i’m pretty weak in faith, though I know I’m strong in knowledge. "

Or look at it this way ? sometimes, GOD has to deconstruct before he can reconstruct, he has to break down the foundations of what we put up, before he can build on what he wants to build upon, weak and feeble knees, breaking down to it's most basic, the foundation so he ( GOD ) can build a new.

[American Constitutionalist]

The book of HEBREWS was intended by the author targeted to the HEBREWS of the early Christians.
NO wonder why it's called the book of HEBREWS, and in that is where we can get our context of the whole book.

HEBREWS chapter 10 verse 26 - 27 .....

26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Those who believe in Salvation by works and of works believe that if you willfully sin after you have gained the knowledge of the Gospel, the truth, that there is no more sacrifice for sins.

Look at the book of Hebrews in context.

For if we willfuly sin and reject the gift of salvation of grace, and of God’s mercy after we have gained the understanding and knowledge of it, and trampled the blood of Jesus under our feet as nothing, something that is unholy, and then go on and trust in bulls, goats, works to save us, then, there is no more atonment for our sins, no more sacrifice for our sins.
That is what I think and believe what this verse is trying to tell us, and I ask GOD himself, that if I am wrong, and in correct, that he would correct me and show me what is right.

[ladyL]

Twenty some odd years ago, I was so disturbed at traditional Christianity with it's 50,000 denominations and 50,000 different doctrines, liturgies, and traditions I went to the Lord, crying out from the bottom of my heart to show me where was The Truth. He has led me on a long journey, He has never once forsaken me nor I Him, Jesus/Yahshua if my Redeemer and I believe He was fully man and is fully God/Elohim. But I see that the Father's Plan for His Kingdom began in Genesis, walked through ALL of the Old Testament continued into the New Testament and completes at Revelation. Therefore from Genesis to Revelation is the complete story/plan for mankind. It is only about ONE nation and ONE kingdom. Yahshuas’s Gospel, which is not the Roman church's Gospel, is about the KINGDOM OF GOD/HEAVEN. When you study from Genesis forward you see the Kingdom of God being orchestrated. It didn't start in the New Testament. The New Testament actually only explains the Old Testament.

Oh I could go on and on. I won't there's too much. Just lift up these words I just wrote to the Lord. Ask Him sincerely if what I am saying has merit. He will show you.
The Hebrew Faith is radical so you MUST be led by the Holy Spirit in your learning. Blessings

[Soothesayer]

Wow that’s the first time anyone has ever said that to me. Usually they just say “no, there are many good people out there despite the evil”.

It’s not really that I am ungrateful to God or at least that’s not the root of it. I am ungrateful for having to live in this evil world and to feel that God is so distant from us. I am also angry at God for not revealing his presence to me. The pain of his (apparent) absence and hidden ways is unbearable. I do not have the peace that I am supposed to get from the lord and my faith in him is sorely lacking. Of course, I was a hardcore lefty atheist only 3 years ago so I’m quite new to this path. Maybe that has something to do with it?

[bogusname]

Sorry for the delay. I’m at work about 90% of the time I’m in FR. I’m male so I have no natural abilty to multitask. It’s hard for me to sound intelligent at both work and FR at the same time so one effort or the other has to suffer. LOL
I want God to stop the evil once and for all too. It’s hard to understand why He has given wickedness 6000 years to do it’s thing. Then again if He would have cut me off in the middle of my wrong doing I would have never gotten saved and I wouldn’t be alive to write this post. I’ve never been a lefty but I did try to be an atheist years ago when God wouldn’t gve me what I wanted. Everything went smooth until I turned back to the lord then all hell broke lose. LOL That might just be your problem because the same thing happened to me. Satan isn’t all that willing to let go. The more I go around trying to help the cause of Christ the more trouble I get. It’s kind of a stupid strategy on satan’s part. We can’t understand the workings of God but we can sure tell that the spiritual realm is real because satan’s antics are so easily seen. All of satan’s hard work against me is actually giving me more insight into what’s going on. The battle is real and the fact that satan is trying to get you to question God’s methods is just good evidence you’re on the right side.

[bogusname]

I meant broke “loose”. Told ya I couldn’t multitask. Cant’t spell either.