Does Church Need Change?

Answers Magazine Online version ^ | 9/27/09 | Mike Matthews & Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.

[OneVike]

Statistics indicate that around two-thirds of children who grew up in conservative churches are now leaving by the time they reach their twenties. What seems to be the problem?

The pattern of young people leaving the church is different than it was even in some recent generations, where it was more temporary. It now appears, in the lives of millions of young people raised in our churches, to be a rather permanent alienation from the church and from the truth claims of Christianity.

Their worldview was evidently not shaped adequately by biblical truths such that they were able to withstand the tide of the secular culture and the allure of the other worldviews around them.

You raise the issue of a secular culture. Does the church need to change its strategy, recognizing that we’re fighting a postmodern world?

We’re not really in a postmodern age. We’re just kind of in “post-modern moods” because we still live in a world shaped by the Enlightenment as well. A lot of what we face in the battle over science and origins, in academic debates and the new atheism, most of that is really not postmodern.

It’s the same old arguments going all the way back to questions of how we can know that something really happened. How can we know there really was a Christ? How can we know these things? Those are old Enlightenment questions, and they are still around.

So we are really going to have to be sophisticated enough to be able to fight something like a two-front war.

What is the church doing wrong in this “war”?

Churches in many ways have actually, I think, added to the problem. They promote the idea of

[OneVike]

Good article on how the conservative churches are failing to prepare their children for the onslaught of the public school systems indoctrination.

I said a long time ago that if the churches do not aggressively teach the children the truths about God's Creation and how evolution, global warming, and sexual freedoms are all evil and wrong, we will lose them long before they ever get to college.

Well the study in this article backs up my warning, and answers the question of how to keep it from happening. Now the question is, will Christian parents demand that their church leaders begin teaching their children that the Bible is not just true, but we have scientific evidence to prove the schools are wrong about the lies they teach, instead of making Sunday school a place to play games while the parents attend church in the main sanctuary.

This is a picture of children playing during Sunday school instead of learning the truths and gaining a defense against the lies they will be taught in school during the week. Many churches across America have turned their Sunday school classes into playtime like this, what do you think will happen when they get to school and are told that Darwin's creation is scientifically proven and the Bible story of creation is just that, a story. Like the study shows in this article, they will lose faith in God long before they ever get to college.

[the invisib1e hand]

Does Church Need Change?

Yes. And Hope. But don't worry. Barack has a plan.

[OneVike]

Religious Ping,

Interesting article about the way churches need to start fighting the lies children learn in schools along with the truth of the Scriptures, instead of playing games and teaching the Bible like it’s just a book full of cute stories.

Freepmail me if you want added or removed from my ping list.

[LearsFool]

What seems to be the problem?

Let's see...wide gate, narrow gate....

Hmm, no real surprises here after all.

[Niuhuru]

We need to stop promotiing Christianity as something soft and fuzzy with so much flexibility. The fundamental appeal of Islam is that it has core values that are not negotiable. It sets standards in a world without any.

[stuartcr]

Maybe they don’t believe the truth claims? I think as the world progresses, people tend to need more empirical proof to some things than before. Probably due a lot to mass communications and technological advances.

[OneVike]

You are correct, when Christianity compromises, it stops being a viable alternative to the world.

So as you said, Islam looks real good to those looking for a place that sets standards of what is right and wrong.

[chuck_the_tv_out]

If we could get vouchers or tax credits to the tune of 1/4 what public schooling costs, church schools would spring up like daisies.

[OneVike]

True, but this article points out that we are not even fighting the worlds lies in Sunday school classes. Too many think that apologetics is not for junior and high school children, but if we do not start using apologetical arguments against the secular worlds teachings of evolutionism and other lies, then we will continue to lose them to the world.

[Rightly Biased]

Southern Baptist ping?

Al Mohler article.

[Nosterrex]

It would be easy to blame it on the church, but what exactly is the church. It’s like blaming things on the government. The church is composed of people, fathers and mothers. Jesus taught the parents and blessed the children. If parents were teaching their own children by word and action, maybe the children would not be falling away. Maybe it’s not the church that needs to change, but the parents. Today, the parents don’t want to learn. They want to be blessed, and the Sunday School teacher and minister/priest are tasked with the responsibility of teaching children. If anyone wants to blame the church, I suggest that you first look at your own family.

[leftyontheright]

Thanks for the ping. I agree.

IMO, churches need center themselves on the person and work of Jesus Christ and preach the gospel. Somehow we’ve gotten off track.

I don’t know about other places, but where I live, churches spend A LOT of time developing programs, entertainment, figuring out how to get people to come with a “relevant” message that the gospel has been diluted.

Our family has been blessed recently in finding a church that exists for the person and work of Jesus. I’m experiencing Christ in ways I cannot believe, and He is completely rocking my world.

[MrB]

James 4:4 says you can’t compromise with the world’s values lest you be an enemy of God. It’s clear as day.

Those churches that teach strict biblical authority are growing, by the way, while those that compromise (and therefore offer nothing) are shrinking.

All this being said, it’s not up to the church, in 45 minutes a week, to “counter” 35 hours a week of indoctrination in a government school. Discipleship is the father’s responsibility, in the home. And if you think you can counter the 6 hours a day with a half hour of “unschooling” at night, you are also dreadfully mistaken.

This is your kids’ eternity (and their kids’, and their kids’, and so on for generations) that we’re talking about. Take it seriously.

[WVNan]

Speaking from inside the walls, if you go to most of the "Mainline" churches today, you will see mostly elderly women attending. The other attendees will be young women with small children who firmly believe that bringing their children to Sunday School will insure the children a place in Heaven and that life will somehow be better for them. How did this happen?

Well, let's see....when did this start? Late 60s, early 70s? The Feminist movement which put men on the defensive. So, men being easily led by females, sat down and dropped out of the parent business. They then dropped out of being the spiritual leader of the family. A massive study in Sweden shows that the one factor that keeps children in church for life is the father who "takes" the children to church regularly. Why is that? Because the father is the one who "sets" the principles and values of life for the children. Mom is the nurturer.

We have seen this same principle play out in the black families. No father, no values. I see it in my own congregation. Mothers who try to bring the kids up to be Christians, and failing miserably because the dads refuse to come with them. The church has been feminized to death. That is my theory and I'm sticking to it.

[WVNan]

Exactly.

[US Navy Vet]

They probably cannot find Sunday School teachers or Nursery workers. The modern young parants of today seem to think that it is beneath them to do either. My wife and I worked as both Nursery and Sunday School teachers when we had our kids in both.

[OneVike]

I don’t completely disagree with you, however as you appropriately pointed out, the people are the church and when they decide that they will leave the battle to the parents only then they will lose the children.

In my church the junior and high school ministries do a good job of meeting more then once a week. They have something going on almost every day for the kids. They teach the Bible and they also teach apologetics that prepares the kids for the battles they will face in the classroom at school. When the teachers bring up evolution, global warming and other scientific theories that are wrong they speak up and defend the truth.

In too many churches however, they do only meet Sunday morning and leave the rest to the parents. parents who themselves are not prepared to teach their children the truth because they have never been taught the truth. When the church ministries do not step forward and fight the fight then the children will lose in the end.

It is the responsibility of the pastors and the church to make sure that the lessons they teach are taught in a way that the students will not be undermines by the secular world, but too many churches have compromised and even teach theistic evolution as a viable alternative to what the Bible teaches. When they do that they have set the children up for a big battle they will lose.

[WVNan]

And I don’t completely disagree with you. Of course the churches must teach the children what they need to be solid Christians. But the fathers must be part of that by making sure that he considers that teaching extremely important, indeed mandatory, by coming to church with them. If it’s not important to dad, how necessary must it be to the child?

[stuartcr]

This would require the children and parents to join or stay in a church to start with. I think the real problem, is that they don’t want to.

[stuartcr]

I believe Islam requires a certain mindset also, one that I don’t think exists very much in our culture.

[OneVike]

WVNan,
I do agree that we need to get fathers involved, but we cannot give up if we cannot. It just means we need to give the kids a reason to come to church instead of the places they are going and getting into things they shouldn’t. Now with the economy so slow and teens being the ones will not be finding those part time jobs, makes it even more important that the churches give them a reason to be different then the rest of society.

stuartcr, you are also correct in that Islam requires strict adherence to their rules. When Christians became so touchy feelly that we stopped saying that there are standards that we will not compromise on, we started losing many followers and their children. That is because we were made in God’s image and so in our souls we desire standards that are set by God, so many find those standards in Islam. Sad, but true.

[Kolokotronis]

“Of course the churches must teach the children what they need to be solid Christians. But the fathers must be part of that by making sure that he considers that teaching extremely important, indeed mandatory, by coming to church with them. If it’s not important to dad, how necessary must it be to the child?”

Agreed. Christian fathers play a vital role in the Christian formation of children. Recent studies just completed by the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America clearly demonstrate that if the father, as head of the household, attends the Divine Liturgy regularly, brings his children to vespers and other devotions of The Church and presides over an Orthodox Christian hme where the practices and traditions of The Faith are lived, his children will likely remain faithful members of The Church.

We Orthodox are luckier than the average Christian, however, in that our particular church teaches us The Faith in virtually the exact same way it has been taught, and preserved inviolate, for the past 1700 years.

[stuartcr]

What keeps me going, is that I have all the faith in the world that things are going as God planned.

[bmwcyle]

I left Methodist Men because they kept saying they needed more fun items to attract more men. When they started doing more fun things I left. The men we attracted just did the fun things. I kept saying this when the idea was presented.

[Nosterrex]

As much as I wish that parents would take the responsibility of teaching their own children, I have to deal with the reality of the situation in that most parents will shift their responsibility to others. Society does this in general when schools become government run baby-sitting institutions. Children ministries are a creation of of modern Western society, and somehow the church was able to exist throughout all those centuries without Sunday school or other programs directed toward the youth. Somewhere and somehow the church took it upon herself to take the place of the parents, and they were more than willing to let the church do it. The thinking of many parents is that the church should make youth events so enjoyable and fun that the kids will come of their own volition. If the kids don't want to come to these events, it is the church's fault. If all that the youth know of Christianity is fun and games, is it any wonder why they leave? The church can't even begin to compete with the world when it comes to entertainment. (Sorry for my ranting)
God's blessings on your work with they youth.

[married21]

How many Orthodox Christians marry another Orthodox?
What happens to the people who marry outside the faith? Does the spouse often convert? Does the couple fall away from consistent observance?

One thing that concerns me, as we bring up our children in practicing the Christian faith, is that since we are taking a very different path from so many other people, it will be difficult for them to find people in their late teens and 20s who are similar. They will have a tough time finding a girlfriend or boyfriend that supports their faith, instead of undermining it.

[americanmother]

I agree with you. I hear preachers preach on wife abuse but never on husband abuse. They have ignored the male and made the female head of the household and church. I have watched preachers make their wife their equal in the pulpit.
I agree it started in the the late 60s and 70s. The women should get back to teaching their children in stead of running the church.

[Kolokotronis]

“How many Orthodox Christians marry another Orthodox?”

Well over 50%. In our Metropolis, its over 60%. We are told that this can cause a problem but I must say that in my parish virtually all the non Orthodox spouses have become Orthodox. If the non-Orthodox spouse is not religious, we see this causing problems in the family. If the non Orthodox spouse is religious, its likely they are relatively open minded otherwise its unlikely they would have married an Orthodox Christian. Our practices are pretty rigorous and so our life style is not like that of other people. It limits the sort of people who will want to marry into Orthodoxy. Which brings me to:

“...since we are taking a very different path from so many other people, it will be difficult for them to find people in their late teens and 20s who are similar. They will have a tough time finding a girlfriend or boyfriend that supports their faith, instead of undermining it.”

We have fast days for slightly more than half the year. Our liturgies are at least two hours long and we stand through most of them. We go on pilgrimages; we have seemingly endless devotions and prayers, both communal and personal. Its different. But that difference attracts some people. They know we mean it. The beauty of our liturgies also attracts people. Back in the late 10th century, Prince Vladimir of Kiev sent out envoys into the world to investigate Mohammedanism, Latin Rite Christianity and Orthodoxy. Here’s what they reported back to the Prince:

“When we journeyed among the Bulgars, we beheld how they worship in their temple, called a mosque, while they stand ungirt. The Bulgarian bows, sits down, looks hither and thither like one possessed, and there is no happiness among them, but instead only sorrow and a dreadful stench. Their religion is not good. Then we went among the Germans, and saw them performing many ceremonies in their temples; but we beheld no glory there. Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty. Every man, after tasting something sweet, is afterward unwilling to accept that which is bitter, and therefore we cannot dwell longer here.”

The liturgy which will be chanted this Sunday in my little parish is the same one the Kievan envoys saw. People are attracted to it.

So, being a faithful Christian will always limit our options in virtually every aspect of life, but by the time our children are looking for mates, that’s something they likely will understand.

[WKB]

Baptist ping

[wmfights]

I do agree that we need to get fathers involved, but we cannot give up if we cannot.

My experience was somewhat different. I ran the Sunday School at our church for children from 1st-4th grades. It is a fairly large church about 5,000 members and has 6 pastors. Over a 5 year period I could only get 1 pastor to come help on one Sunday. I could not get help on curriculum, or a heads up on what the coming messages would be so we could look at the relevant passages (our Sunday School met before services).

In a nut shell the pastors were more interested in teaching adult classes where the subject matter would be deeper and more challenging. The kids programs were secondary. Nobody bothered to think that the next generation might not be as attached to their Christian faith.

[Chickensoup]

Interesting article about the way churches need to start fighting the lies children learn in schools along with the truth of the Scriptures, instead of playing games and teaching the Bible like it’s just a book full of cute stories.

Churches, at least committed ones, need to help parents keep their kids out of the government schools not try to fight 28 hours of indoctrination with an hour and a half bible class.

[fr_freak]

The church has been feminized to death. That is my theory and I'm sticking to it.

I agree completely. The churches I have been to over the years have mostly consisted of a bunch of sissified, passive feminized attitudes. All masculinity has been stripped from the church. What is preached now, whether by men or women, is more along the lines of "gosh, we really should try to be nice to everybody, and if you can, try to follow stuff like the 10 Commandments". In the old days (so I'm told), preachers used to thunder the Word of God down from the pulpit and you WILL heed!. Now it feels more like a suggestion inside of a group therapy session. What man would want to sit through that crap? It's almost like watching Oprah.

[xzins]

My sense, Wm, is that 21st century American Christianity is, for the most part, a few miles wide and about a quarter inch deep.

[wmfights]

...about a quarter inch deep.

You might be right. All the evidence supports the thought.

[Marysecretary]

Churches have become lukewarm. They need to preach Jesus and Him crucified and coming again. They need to preach about sin and its consequences. And perhaps the parents don’t live it in front of their children at home either. It’s time to quit playing churchianity and get down to the real thing.

[Marysecretary]

I agree with you Nan!

[Marysecretary]

We have a wonderful Christian school in our church, for over 25 years now. But it’s hard to keep it going. Tuition is expensive and we try to let kids in that really want a Christian education, regardless of their ability to pay the full shot. We’ve had great kids and teachers over the years but it sure hasn’t been easy.

[Marysecretary]

Our church has conferences for men, men’s breakfasts, men’s bible studies at times, and we have great men in our church. They’re wonderful fathers and husbands and friends. Our former pastor is the men’s ministry leader for the organization that’s an umbrella over our church and others in the area, so men’s ministry is a strong point here. It works.

[pankot]

Your idea is good, but it presupposes said churches know and communicate the truth of Scripture. Too many do not. If they did, for example, there would be no abortion in America, actually there would be no Obama either.

[WVNan]

Hang in there Mary and keep teaching those kids. I hold a children’s time every Sunday during the worship hour. Sometimes I think the adults learn along with the kids. I never sugar-coat the Gospel. They learn a lot about sin and consequence.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[dixiechick2000]

Thanks for the ping!

My grands are getting the education you and I had when we were young.

God love and protect private CHRISTIAN education.

You have to love a school that has a coffee shop in the commons named HeBrews. ;o)

[WKB]

I hope they learn more than I did.I had too many
extra activities. :>)

[dixiechick2000]

Why doesn’t that surprise me? ;o)

[Arthur McGowan]

Churches need to get serious about getting children OUT of government schools, and demanding that members of churches vote against all funding, bond issues, etc., for government schools.