Posted on 09/28/2009 8:15:53 PM PDT by delacoert
You might think that the Mormon people celebrate Christmas like a good Christian denomination would. But a doctrinal issue broods over the Mormon people, a historic issue that prevents many Mormons from appreciating the Christian meaning of Christmas. Indeed, it is an issue that prevents Mormons from having a saving relationship with the real Jesus Christ. Just who is that Jesus in the manger? How was he conceived? And what kind of salvation does he freely offer to those who want eternal life and the forgiveness of sins?
One of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is that Christ was born of a virgin. The Bible teaches that though she had not yet had physical intercourse with a man, Mary miraculously conceived and bore a son. Mormons insist that they do believe in the "virgin birth", yet many of them have described it in a way far removed from what Christians have believed for two millennia. While individual Mormons are divided over this issue, to this day the Mormon Church has no unequivocal official position on whether the immortal Heavenly Father had sexual intercourse with his mortal spirit-daughter Mary to conceive Jesus.
Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie, in perhaps the most explicit denial of the virgin birth, wrote,
"Christ was Begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547)
You might ask, "How can Mormons who believe this say that Christ was born of a virgin?" This is done by changing the definition of the word "virgin". The virgin Mary did not have sexual relations with a mortal man, they say, but instead was impregnated by an immortal man. Bruce McConkie wrote,
"Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father." (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., p. 822)
When one considers that Mormonism teaches that every human born on earth is a literal spirit child of God, the concept that Jesus was conceived in a natural manner becomes even more blasphemous. Why? Because it means the Jesus of Mormonism was conceived in an incestuous union between Heavenly Father and his spirit-daughter Mary.
Mormons today are divided over this issue. While some deny that the traditional LDS concept of "virgin" is anything different than the traditional Christian understanding, others find it necessary to state that the Church takes no official position on the "mechanics" of the conception of Christ. Robert Millet, who is seen as the champion of progressive BYU neo-orthodoxy, writes:
"While Latter-day Saints clearly believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Father, there is no authoritative doctrinal statement within Mormonism that explains how the conception of Jesus was accomplished," (Another Jesus? The Christ of the Latter-day Saints, p. 74)
Others simply prefer the more traditional Mormon position. Kevin Barney, who is associated with the LDS group Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research, writes that he likes the idea of the sexual generation of Jesus. In a post titled, "The Sexual Geneatinon of Jesus", Kevin writes:
"My usual tack when asked about it is to point out that the idea is not now and never was doctrine; it was a speculation. It is not binding on anyone, and in fact my impression is that it has become very much a minority view in the Church, and that most Mormons do not accept this characterization of the physical generation of the mortal Jesus.
I will confess, however, that I actually like this idea. Maybe it is because I have a streak of old fashioned Mormonism somewhere inside me. But I find it appealing on several levels. First, there is a certain naturalism to the idea. I presume the mortal Jesus had 46 chromosomes, and that 23 came from Mary, but where did the other 23 come from? As a Mormon, I’m not big on the idea that they were created ex nihilo for this specific purpose. I like being able to say that Jesus really did have a father, not in a metaphorical sense only (the language of begetting in the creeds doesn’t mean literal begetting), but in a physical sense. He really was the Son of God.
I also find it fascinating that people see this idea as being so totally offensive. To me, that speaks not only to our radically different conception of God and man as being of the same species, our literalist notion of divine paternalism and our radical materialism, but also to our Puritan heritage. If it is so disgusting to suggest God sired a son by sexual intercourse, why, I wonder, did God ordain that to be the natural method by which we conceive our own children? Is that just some sort of a cosmic joke? Does God sit in yonder heavens and look down on his creatures and laugh at their disgusting and dirty and ridiculous actions? Isn’t it possible that, if God ordained sexual intercourse as the means by which we create children, that it is divinely appointed and not disgusting or dirty at all?
I freely concede that the old fashioned Mormon speculators didn’t think all the way through this idea, and there are theological loose ends, to be sure. But I am curious: does anyone else here kind of like this old notion, or is it Mormon materialism run amuck?"
To be sure, sexual intercourse in the right context is not disgusting or dirty at all. It is the means that God ordained for children to be begotten, and for a married couple to enjoy love and intimacy. What Kevin Barney and other Mormons fail to realize is that this is an act ordained by God to happen between humans, not between God and a human woman.
This issue needs to be exposed, and not merely because Mormons have made alarming public statements. I personally have good Mormon friends who believe God the Father had sexual interourse with Mary. Others will say that they don't know how it happened, leaving open the possibility. I believe this way of thinking is primarily fostered by the Mormon worldview, which says that God the Father is fundamentally of the human species, and has a body of flesh and bones. God cannot create matter out of nothing, they say, and must carry out his purposes in ways that conform to natural laws. And Jesus Christ is the "only begotten Son of God", they say, because God is the literal father of his body. Not all Mormons follow this line of thinking to a belief in the sexual generation of Jesus, but it is still a problem within Mormonism.
We call upon the Mormon Church to publicly and unequivocally renounce the past teachings of Mormon leaders concerning this issue, and to repent of not having a clear official position concerning the nature of the virginity of Mary. We also call upon Mormons to repent of belonging to an religious organization where a denial of the virgin birth is condoned or acqueisced to.
The truth of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ as understood by Christians for two millenia is far too precious to warrant anything less. We encourage Christians to lovingly question and challenge their Mormon neighbors over this issue. True repentance demands that a person be willing to embrace the Jesus Christ who was truly born of a virgin.
The supernatural birth of Jesus Christ identifies him as the Messiah, God's only son. Jesus Christ is Lord. He commands everyone to repent and trust him for the free gift of eternal life and forgiveness of sins. Everyone who calls upon his name will be saved.
I pray that this message finds you well this holiday season, and I wish you a Merry Christmas!
Brigham Young
"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven... Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, and be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 50, 51)
"I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and begat the Saviour of the world; for he is the only-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 238)
"When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 218)
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115)
"God has made His children like Himself to stand erect, and has endowed them with intelligence and power and dominion over all His works, and given them the same attributes which He himself possesses. He created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, pp. 122-123)
"The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. On this account infidels have called the Savior a bastard. This is merely a human opinion upon one of the inscrutable doings of the Almighty. That very babe that was cradled in the manger, was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband of Mary, but by another Being. Do you inquire by whom? He was begotten by God our heavenly Father. This answer may suffice you---you need never inquire more upon that point." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 268)
Heber C. Kimball
"...I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it." (Journal of Discourses, 8:211)
Orson Pratt
"God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Hence, the Father saith concerning him, 'Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten thee.' We are informed in the first chapter of Luke, that Mary was chosen by the Father as a choice virgin, through whom He begat Jesus. The angel said unto the Virgin Mary, 'The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore, also, that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.' After the power of the Highest had overshadowed Mary, and she had by that means conceived, she related the circumstance to her cousin Elizabeth in the following words: 'He that is Mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is His name.' It seems from this relation that the Holy Ghost accompanied 'the Highest' when He overshadowed the Virgin Mary and begat Jesus; and from this circumstance some have supposed that the body of Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost without the instrumentality of the immediate presence of the Father. There is no doubt that the Holy Ghost came upon Mary to sanctify her, and make her holy, and prepare her to endure the glorious presence of "the Highest', that when 'He' should 'overshadow' her she might conceive, being filled with the Holy Ghost; hence the angel said, as recorded in Matthew, 'That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost;' that is, the Holy Ghost gave her strength to abide in the presence of the Father without being consumed, but it was the personage of the Father who begat the body of Jesus; and for this reason Jesus is called 'the Only Begotten of the Father;' that is, the only one in this world whose fleshly body was begotten by the Father. There were millions of sons and daughters who he begat before the foundation of this world, but they were spirits, and not bodies of flesh and bones; whereas, both the spirit and body of Jesus were begotten by the Father---the spirit having been begotten in heaven many ages before the tabernacle was begotten upon the earth.
"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father; we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully. It would have been unlawful for any man to have interfered with Mary, who was already espoused to Joseph; for such a heinous crime would have subjected both the guilty parties to death, according to the law of Moses. But God having created all men and women, had the most perfect right to do with His own creation, according to His holy will and pleasure: He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for His own conduct. It was also lawful in Him, after having thus dealt with Mary, to give her to Joseph her espoused husband. Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and eternity, we are not informed. Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in the mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity.
"As God the Father begat the fleshly body of Jesus, so He, before the world began, begat his spirit. As the body required an earthly Mother, so his spirit required a heavenly Mother. As God associated in the capacity of a husband with the earthly mother, so likewise he associated in the same capacity with the heavenly one; earthly things being in the likeness of heavenly things; and that which is temporal being in the likeness of that which is eternal; or, in other words, the laws of generation upon the earth are after the order of the laws of generation in heaven" (The Seer, pp. 158-9; cf. B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, vol 2, p. 270)
"We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born, and another being upon the earth by whom He begat the tabernacle of Jesus, as His Only Begotten in this world." (The Seer, pp. 172-3)
First Presidency Statement
"Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior. No extended explanation of the title 'Son of God' as applied to Jesus Christ appears necessary." ("The Father and The Son; A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and The Twelve", pamphlet published by the Church, June 30, 1916; quoted in Improvement Era 19:934-942, August, 1916; quoted in Liahona, the Elders' Journal 21:380-384, March 25, 1924; quoted in The Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, pp. 466-7; quoted in Jesus the Christ, 12th ed., by James Talmage, pp. 465-47; quoted in Teachings Of Presidents Of The Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 353; quoted in Christ and the New Covenant: The Messianic Message of the Book of Mormon, by Jeffrey R. Holland, p. 360; quoted in Church History and Modern Revelation, by Joseph Fielding Smith, vol. 2, p. 160; quoted Man, His Origin and Destiny, by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 119; quoted in God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150)
Church Curriculum
"[Jesus Christ] was willing to make payment because of his great love for mankind, and he was able to make payment because he lived a sinless life and because he was actually, literally, biologically the Son of God in the flesh" (Messages for Exaltation: Eternal Insights from the Book of Mormon, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Sunday School Union, 1967), pp. 378-379).
"God the Father became the literal father of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal father." (Gospel Principles, 1997 ed., p. 57)
In a "classic sermon delivered by President Joseph F. Smith at the Box Elder Stake conference of December 20, 1914, as recorded in the Box Elder News of January 28, 1915" (Hoyt W. Brewster, Jr., Doctrine and Covenants Encyclopedia, p. 398), he taught:
"You all know that your fathers are indeed your fathers and that your mothers are indeed your mothers you all know that don't you? You cannot deny it. Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was begotten not of God but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. This is nonsense. Why will not the world receive the truth? Why will they not believe the Father when he says that Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son? Why will they try to explain this truth away and make mystery of it? ...
"Now, little boys and girls, when you are confronted by infidels in the world who know nothing of how Christ was begotten, you can say he was born just as the infidel was begotten and born, so was Christ begotten by his Father, who is also our Father---the Father of our spirits---and he was born of his mother Mary.
"The difference between Jesus Christ and other men is this: Our fathers in the flesh are mortal men, who are subject unto death; but the Father of Jesus Christ in the flesh is the God of Heaven. Therefore Jesus, as he declared, received the power of life from his Father and was never subject unto death but had life in himself as his father had life in himself. Because of this power he overcame death and the grave and became master of the resurrection and the means of salvation to us all.
"Shall we as Latter-day Saints deny the truth and then claim that God made man in his likeness in the beginning? Shall we come under the impression that God possesses the power of creation, and yet did not literally create? He is not without his companion any more than I am without my companion, the mother of my children...
"Now, by and by you will be able to understand this far better than you can today. Some of us grandparents find it difficult to conceive the truth we want to think of something marvelous. We want to try to make it appear that God does not do things in the right way, or that he has another way of doing things than what we know, we must come down to the simple fact that God Almighty was the Father of His Son Jesus Christ. Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was his mother. God by her begot His son Jesus Christ, and He was born into the world with power and intelligence like that of His Father...
"Now, my little friends, I will repeat again in words as simple as I can, and you talk to your parents about it, that God, the Eternal Father is literally the father of Jesus Christ.
"Mary was married to Joseph for time. No man could take her for eternity because she belonged to the Father of her divine Son. In the revelation that has come thru Joseph Smith, we learn that it is the eternal purpose of God that man and woman should be joined together by the power of God here on earth for time and eternity."
An official LDS Church manual (Family Home Evening Manual, 1972) quoted from Joseph F. Smith under the heading "A Modern Prophet's Answer" and included this picture on page 126:
The same manual carried the above illustration showing the figure of aman, woman, and child. On page 126 LDS parents are told they should usethis to explain to their children “how Jesus was the only begotten Son of God.” Daddy plus Mommy equals you; Heavenly Father plus Mary equals Jesus.
Joseph F. Smith
"Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was his mother." (Box Elder Stake conference of December 20, 1914)
Ezra Taft Benson
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 7; cf. Come unto Christ, p. 4).
Joseph Fielding Smith
"Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost... Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18).
James Talmage
"We belong to the Church of Jesus Christ, and much has been said concerning His proprietorship, His mastership, in the Church, the Church that bears His name. I take it to be a plain and simple principle that we cannot worship intelligently, and therefore acceptably unto the Lord, unless we know something of the attributes and of the will of Him whom we profess to worship. The relationship of the Christ to the Eternal Father has been set forth in such plainness that I do not think any wayfaring man amongst us can fail to understand. We recognize in Jesus Christ the Son of the Eternal Father, both in spirit and in body. There is no other meaning to attach to that expression, as used by the Eternal Father Himself---'Mine Only Begotten Son.' Christ combined within His own person and nature the attributes of His mortal mother, and just as truly the attributes of His immortal Sire. By that fixed and inexorable law of nature, that every living organism shall follow after his kind, Jesus the Christ had the power to die, for He was the offspring of a mortal woman; and He had the power to withstand death indefinitely, for He was the son of an immortal Father. This simplicity of doctrine has shocked many, but the truth is frequently shocking just because of its simplicity and consequent grandeur." (Conference Report, April 1915, p. 121)
Notice that the following Talmage quote is in currently used CES Institute manuals (official Church curriculum):
"That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure through mortal maternity, was of right to be called the 'Son of the Highest'" (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 23rd ed., p. 81; quoted in Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual: Religion 231-232, p. 9; quoted in The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles [New Testament Student Manual: Religion 211–212], p. 24)
Melvin J. Ballard
The contemporary of Talmage, Mormon apostle, and grandfather of M. Russell Ballard wrote:
"One of the great questions that I have referred to that the world is concerned about, and is in confusion over, is as to whether or not his was a virgin birth, a birth wherein divine power interceded. Joseph Smith made it perfectly clear that Jesus Christ told the absolute truth, as did those who testify concerning him, the Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, wherein he is declared to be the very Son of God. And if God the Eternal Father is not the real Father of Jesus Christ, then are we in confusion; then is he not in reality the Son of God. But we declare that he is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh.
"Mary told the story most beautifully when she said that an angel of the Lord came to her and told her that she had found favor in the sight of God, and had come to be worthy of the fulfilment of the promises heretofore made, to become the virgin mother of the Redeemer of the world. She afterwards, referring to the event, said: 'God hath done wonderful things unto me.' 'And the Holy Ghost came upon her,' is the story, 'and she came into the presence of the highest.' No man or woman can live in mortality and survive the presence of the Highest except by the sustaining power of the Holy Ghost. So it came upon her to prepare her for admittance into the divine presence, and the power of the Highest, who is the Father, was present, and overshadowed her, and the holy Child that was born of her was called the Son of God.
Men who deny this, or who think that it degrades our Father, have no true conception of the sacredness of the most marvelous power with which God has endowed mortal men---the power of creation. Even though that power may be abused and may become a mere harp of pleasure to the wicked, nevertheless it is the most sacred and holy and divine function with which God has endowed man. Made holy, it is retained by the Father of us all, and in his exercise of that great and marvelous creative power and function, he did not debase himself, degrade himself, nor debauch his daughter. Thus Christ became the literal Son of a divine Father, and no one else was worthy to be his father." (Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, p. 167)
This quote is particularly challenging to those Mormons who suggest that Mary could have been "naturally" impregnated via artificial insemination. When the wicked hire prostitutes, are they abusing the power and harping pleasure out of artificial insemination? No, of course not. When Ballard says, "that power may be abused and may become a mere harp of pleasure to the wicked", he is speaking of sexual intercourse, a "divine function with which God has endowed man." This is of course why he addresses men who think "it degrades our Father". As with the majority of other quotes by Mormon leaders on this topic, human artificial insemination would have been unknown to the author at the time. Why choose a stretched and anachronistic reading when a plain and natural interpretation is available?
Bruce McConkie
In addition to the quote mentioned at the beginning of this article, McConkie also said:
"These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47)
"For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being." (The Promised Messiah, p. 466) "Mary was a virgin... until after the birth of our Lord. Then, for the first time, she was known by Joseph, her husband; and other children, both sons and daughters, were then born to her. (Matt. 13:55-56; Mark 6:3; Gal. 1:19.) She conceived and brought forth her Firstborn Son while yet a virgin because the Father of that child was an immortal personage." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 1, p. 82)
"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 742)
"Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father. Mary, his mother, 'was carried away in the Spirit' (1 Ne. 11:13-21), was 'overshadowed' by the Holy Ghost, and the conception which took place 'by the power of the Holy Ghost' resulted in the bringing forth of the literal and personal Son of God the Father. (Alma 7:10; 2 Ne. 17:14; Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38.) Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost, but of the Father. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 18-20.) Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 822)
Some mistakenly argue that this last sentence proves McConkie affirmed a more traditional notion of the virgin birth. Modernism held that Mary had sexual intercourse with a mortal man, probably Joseph, and allegorized the virgin birth account away as mythological. McConkie's response was not to say that Mary never had sex, but rather to say, "Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father." McConkie's reaction to the modernistic tendency to make the account figurative was to argue that the event was very "literal".
"What does it mean to believe in Christ? It means to accept him as the Son of God in the literal and full sense of the word. It means to believe that God is his Father in the same sense that all mortal men have fathers." (The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, p. 294)
"The Father had a Son, a natural Son, his own literal Seed, the Offspring of his body." (The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, p. 355) "The great God, the Eternal Elohim, the Father of us all, ... in his love, mercy, and grace condescended to step down from his Almighty throne, to step down to a lesser and benighted state, as it were, and become the Father of a Son 'after the manner of the flesh.' ... This then is the condescension of God-that a God should beget a man; that an Immortal Parent should father a mortal Son; that the Creator of all things from the beginning should step down from his high state of exaltation and be, for a moment, like one of the creatures of his creating... We have spoken plainly of our Lord's conception in the womb of Mary; in reality the plain assertions are found in the revealed word, and we have but certified that the words mean what they say and cannot be spiritualized away. And as it is with reference to our Lord's mother, so it is as pertaining to his Father. The scriptures say that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son. The problem is that the intellectually led ministry and laity of the day assume, as Satan leads them to do, that a name-title of this sort is simply figurative and does not have the same literal meaning as when the words are spoken in ordinary conversation. Perhaps again the best service we can render, on the issue here involved, is somehow to get the message across that words mean what they say, and that if Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father, it means just that.
"Some words scarcely need definition. They are on every tongue and are spoken by every voice. The very existence of intelligent beings presupposes and requires their constant use. Two such words are father and son. Their meaning is known to all, and to define them is but to repeat them. Thus: A son is a son is a son, and a father is a father is a father. I am the son of my father and the father of my sons. They are my sons because they were begotten by me, were conceived by their mother, and came forth from her womb to breathe the breath of mortal life, to dwell for a time and a season among other mortal men.
"And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a Father; he is not a spirit essence or nothingness to which the name Father is figuratively applied. And the Son is a Son is a Son; he is not some transient emanation from a divine essence, but a literal, living offspring of an actual Father. God is the Father; Christ is the Son. The one begat the other. Mary provided the womb from which the Spirit Jehovah came forth, tabernacles in clay, as all men are, to dwell among his fellow spirits whose births were brought to pass in like manner. There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is just that simple. Christ was born of Mary. He is the Son of God-the Only begotten of the Father." (The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, pp. 467-8)
"And so, in the final analysis it is the faithful saints, those who have testimonies of the truth and divinity of this great latter-day work, who declare our Lord's generation to the world. Their testimony is that Mary's son is God's Son; that he was conceived and begotten in the normal way; that he took upon himself mortality by the natural birth processes; that he inherited the power of mortality from his mother and the power of immortality from his Father-in consequence of all of which he was able to work out the infinite and eternal atonement." (The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, p. 473)
"Without overstepping the bounds of propriety by saying more than is appropriate, let us say this: God the Almighty, who once dwelt on an earth of his own and has now ascended the throne of eternal power to reign in everlasting glory; who has a glorified and exalted body, a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; who reigns in equity and justice over the endless billions of his spirit children who inhabit the worlds without number that roll into being at his word---God the Almighty, who is infinite and eternal, elects, in his fathomless wisdom, to beget a Son, an Only Son, the Only Begotten in the flesh. God, who is infinite and immortal, condescends to step down from his throne, to join with one who is finite and mortal in bringing forth, ‘after the manner of the flesh,' the Mortal Messiah." (The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary, pp. 314-315)
"This offspring was to be himself almighty-God's Almighty Son. How and by what means and through whose instrumentality does such a conception come? Gabriel explains: ‘The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing [better that holy child] which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.’ Again the answer is perfect. There is a power beyond man's. When God is involved, he uses his minister, the Holy Ghost, to overshadow the future mother and to carry her away in the Spirit. She shall conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and God himself shall be the sire. It is his Son of whom Gabriel is speaking. A son is begotten by a father: whether on earth or in heaven it is the same." (The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary, pp. 318-319)
"As far as this life is concerned, [Jesus] was born of Mary and of Elohim; he came here as an offspring of that Holy Man who is literally our Father in heaven. He was born in mortality in the literal and full sense as the Son of God. He is the Son of his Father in the same sense that all mortals are the sons and daughters of their fathers." (The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary, p. 330)
"The Father had a Son, a natural Son, his own literal Seed, the Offspring of his body." (The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, p. 355)
"There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is just that simple." (The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, p. 468)
"Only Begotten Son. Only Begotten in the flesh, meaning in mortality. This designation of our Lord signifies that he was begotten by Man of Holiness as literally as any mortal father begets a son. The natural processes of procreation were involved; Jesus was begotten by his Father as literally as he was conceived by his mother." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 1:144)
"The express image of his person. What more need be said? God the Eternal Father is the Father; the Son of God is the Son. A father is a father, and a son is a son. The Father begets; the Son is begotten; they are Parent and Child; Sire and Son look alike, so much so that they are the express image of each other's persons. The substance composing the body of one is identical in appearance to that composing the body of the other. What could be plainer? . . . Begotten. Begotten means begotten; it means Christ's mortal body was procreated by an Eternal Sire; it means God is the Father of Christ, 'after the manner of the flesh.'" (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:138-141)
Some argue that, for McConkie, the"natural" means by which Christ was conceived was an abnormal spiritual "equivalent" to sex on earth, but not actually identical to the normal way we know children to be begotten. Miracles, as it goes, conform to "higher natural laws" which are "unknown to us" (cf. Miracles, by Michael Ash). While it is true that miracles in Mormonism are regarded as conforming to natural laws, it does not follow that McConkie viewed the conception of Christ as having been accomplished in a spiritually equivalent way that is "unknown to us". When all his writings on the subject are considered, McConkie is overwhelmingly clear that "natural processes of procreation" were involved that were "normal" and "real" and "literal" and "personal" and not "figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension". Rather than speaking of the conception of Christ as something roughly equivalent to how we know children to be normally begotten, he teaches that "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." He even felt the need to say he did not want to "[overstep] the bounds of propriety by saying more than isappropriate". Furthermore, he taught that God the Father "condescend[ed] to step down from histhrone, to join with one who is finite and mortal", and that he "step[ped] down to a lesser and benighted state, as it were, and become the Father of a Son 'after the manner of the flesh.'"
Harold B. Lee
Harold B. Lee, who was second most senior apostle after President McKay and President Smith, addressed the issue of some who seemed to be "obsessed" with the conception of Christ, and responds that there is "very little" on this issue about which "the Lord has said", and that we should "wait until He sees fit to tell us more":
"Teachers should not speculate on the manner of Christ's birth. We are very much concerned that some of our Church teachers seem to be obsessed of the idea of teaching doctrine which cannot be substantiated and making comments beyond what the Lord has actually said.
"You asked about the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about sexual intercourse between Deity and the mother of the Savior. If teachers were wise in speaking of this matter about which the Lord has said but very little, they would rest their discussion on this subject with merely the words which are recorded on this subject in Luke 1:34-35: 'Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.'
"Remember that the being who was brought about by [Mary's] conception was a divine personage. We need not question His method to accomplish His purposes. Perhaps we would do well to remember the words of Isaiah 55:8-9: 'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.' Let the Lord rest His case with this declaration and wait until He sees fit to tell us more." (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, ed. Clyde J. Williams (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996), 13–14)
There's the rub. Anyone can say anything they want if no one is official. But if the Mormon Prophets can't be trusted, then who can?
Check out the Appendix in the article for the words of the Mormon prophets and form your own opinion.
hey look, mormon bashing... just after katie curic ‘outed’ Glenn Beck (like it was a secret)
gee, what are the odds...
More of the circular firing squad.
Seriously, if one cares to read this, this is the most conclusive scholarly thesis by then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (sometimes called a “theological Einstein”) The rest is all drivel.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFUNICI.HTM
Do they believe in the Trinity?
The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith
Come on people. This article is written by someone who makes his/her living by trying to trash Mormons.
Jesus Christ was born of a virgin. Mormons believe the Bible.
Stop telling lies about my faith and my precious Savior.
Nah. It’s not a cult. Move along.
Just one of Joseph Smith’s numerous false prophecies
“. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . “
(History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 394.)
Joseph Smith said mothers have babies in eternity and some are on thrones.
“A question may be asked, ‘Will mothers have their children in eternity?’ Yes! Yes! Mothers, you shall have your children.”
Joseph Smith blasphemously taught the Trinity is three gods.
“I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.”
(Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith p. 370).
Joseph Smith said God was once a man.
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens…I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form — like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man….it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see….and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).
Joseph Smith said our greatest responsibility is to seek after our dead.
“The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 7).
Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven?
(The Young Woman’s Journal, Vol. 3, pages 263-264.
See reprint in Mormonism — Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, page 4.)
How do you know when Joseph's words are true and when they are false?
“Do they believe in the Trinity? “
No.
The LDS is a cult.
Can you please take this garbage to “Godlikeproductions” or some such place?
Thanks.
I don't think so. How can you possibly reconcile Jesus' words that there is no marriage in heaven with Joseph Smith's teaching on celestial marriage.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Strangely enough... There are plenty of people that would consider the whole of Christianity a cult
and you know... Who cares. Because in America, people can believe whatever they wish without the approval of others. This would be called the freedom of religion.
You could believe that a pez dispenser is the true god. If it works for you, and you are not hurting anyone else, then good for you.
And as an FYI.. The reason we ended up with McCain is because of religious intolerance the left goaded into voting their way
There is no marriage in heaven. However Peter was given the power to seal in heaven and to seal on earth and the power to loose in heaven and to loose on earth. This is the marrying and divorcing powers given to man. If you are not married for time and all eternity by this power you will remain single forever.
That would seem an especially tortured answer, given that Jesus' statement was responding to a question about whose wife a woman that had been married several times would be.
So am I to assume that you believe that prior to Peter man's marrying and divorcing powers had no effect in Heaven? but after Peter everything changed?
Ridiculous. Joseph Smith did the same thing Mohammed and Warren Jefferies did. He declared himself a prophet so that he could rule over his followers and marry as many women as he liked.
No. You assume too much. The sealing power has been around since the time of Adam. God married Adam and Eve for time and all eternity. He did not marry them until death do they part, because they were at that time immortal. They had not yet partaken of the forbidden fruit. A Prophet who holds this sealing power can choose to either marry a man and a woman together until death do they part or if they qualify, he can seal them together for time and all eternity. Civil governments do not have the sealing power of God. They can only marry till death do they part. False churches also dont have the sealing power of God, and therefore can only perform marriages until death do they part. In the LDS church, the sealing power is only used in the temple by a man who has been delegated this authority by the Prophet. In your example of the women who had several husbands, the marriages were civil marriages and were not sealings, therefore Jesus answer was correct.
So are you saying that the Jewish priesthood that married that woman was merely a “civil” government and not a priesthood established by God?
There are 2 Priesthoods. The Aaronic priesthood named after Aaron the brother of Moses and the Melchizedek priesthood named after The High Priest Melchizedek who Abraham gave tithes to. Both priesthoods have different offices in them. Each office has different powers and authority, duties and responsibilities. The Aaronic priesthood which performs outward ordinances such as baptism, marriages etc. The Melchizedek priesthood is the higher priesthood and performs other ordinances such as healing the sick, raising the dead, etc. The sealing power is a separate power belonging to the Melchizedek priesthood. Not everyone who holds the Melchizedek priesthood holds the sealing power.
In May of 1929 John the Baptist appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and gave them the Aaronic priesthood by the laying on of hands. About 3 weeks later Peter James and John appeared to them and gave them the Melchizedek priesthood. On April 3 1836, the Prophet Elijah appeared to them and gave Joseph the sealing powers.
In the LDS church, a Bishop can perform marriages, however they are only civil marriages. Sealings are only performed in Temples.
Smith married women who were already married and had living husbands. He took sisters to be his wives and he took both mother and daughter in violation of the Old Testament. And he married kids as young as 14. He basically copied Mohammad, "Hey, I'm a prophet of God, sleep with me."
Lev 18:17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; [for] they [are] her near kinswomen: it [is] wickedness. Lev 18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex [her], to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life [time].
The following is from http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/ If you want to see the links below go to this link first.
|
|
BIOGRAPHIES |
|
Wife |
Date |
Age |
Husband* |
|
Emma Hale |
Jan 1827 |
22 |
NONE |
|
* Living Husband at the time of |
|
|
|
WWW.FAMILYSEARCH.ORG (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City) MORMON POLYGAMY: A HISTORY (Van Wagoner, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1989)* MORMON ENIGMA: EMMA HALE SMITH (Newell & Avery, University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago, 1994)* IN SACRED LONELINESS: THE PLURAL WIVES OF JOSEPH SMITH (Compton, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1997)* DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City)
|
|
1. PDF version of Remembering the Wives of Joseph Smith 2. What do Latter-day Saint churches believe and teach about polygamy today? 3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints praises the "balanced analysis" in the book: "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith".
CORRECTIONS, COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS ARE WELCOME |
Mormons are free to believe whatever they want - they also are free to know that other's don't fall for their "prophet."
....And in this country, people can discuss the viability of different beliefs, a free interchange of ideas. It is called free speech... sheesh
but this thread isn’t about debating ideas, but bashing the beliefs of others. get off your high horse and realize you are in America. if your goal is to vilify a whole group of peaceful people, you have left the American way of life and are venturing into leftie territory.
keep in mind, i could easily do the same to Christianity.
Christianity == all of Christianity
as for the validity of beliefs... totally subjective navel gazing. you’ll spend hours harping on it, and get nowhere doing it. because in the end, no one really knows... until its their time.
(and the correct answer was... hare krishna. i’m sorry, but the rest of you were wrong. off to hell with you.)
Every thread on FreeRepublic is about debating ideas. And BTW attributing motives to other posters on the religion forum is off limits.
get off your high horse a
Oh but by your own standards, my religious high horse is off limits to you and your opinion. You have no right telling me to "get off." (teehee)
keep in mind, i could easily do the same to Christianity.
Please, feel free to try, this is an open forum.
As to your statement regarding the plural wives of Joseph Smith: Jesus Christ commanded him to have more than one wife. Therefore he did. If Jesus Christ told YOU to do something that would normally be considered wrong, what would you do? The Prophet Abraham was commanded by God to offer his son Issac as a sacrifice. In other words to kill him. What did Abraham do?
The question is Was Joseph a Prophet of God? If he was, then he was justified in what he did. So how do we know? The answer is by their Fruits ye shall know them. Not by their accusations ye shall know them.
Compare the life of the Prophet Joseph Smith to the false prophet Jim Jones. Both loved multiple women. Both had many followers. Both had legal problems with the state government. Both left the state and started a new city. Both died along with some of their followers.
What were the results. The church that Jim Jones started no longer exits. The Church that Joseph Smith started is the 4th largest church in the US. Thirteen Million plus world wide. There is a big difference in the fruit from each man.
‘debating’ any such topic would be pointless, but would result in plenty of bashing... which would most likely be the goal.
besides, i don’t get into ‘debates’ with anyone that signed up around an election. most trolls are ‘born’ around those times.
LOL
I see, so you measure the truth of a church by it's growth? I guess Islam must be more true than Mormonism following that logic.
And Mormonism has had it's share of bad fruit. The U.S. army was sent to Utah to stop the murder of wagon trains by the Mormons.
The way you really measure truth is by comparing with what God has previously said. Moses didn't just appear on the screen and announce I'm a prophet. God showed Israel many wonderous miracles in confirmation that Moses was a prophet. And Moses laid down the test of future prophets. A test Joseph Smith didn't match.
Jesus didn't just appear and announce that he was a prophet or the Son of God. He had a string of prophets before him from Moses forward announcing him. He had miracles confirming him. Everything he said and did was in accordance with what had been said by God in the Old Testament.
Mohammed appears on the scene and announces he is a prophet and the Jews laughed at him because he failed the test of Moses. But that didn't stop Moses from taking stories and truth from the Bible and mixing in Mohammed's own truth (lies), to allow Mohammed control over his people and to allow him to fulfill his own greed for power, possessions and women. To overcome objections Mohammed alternately claims the existing scriptures are true. And then claims that they are full of errors.
Joseph Smith appears on the scene and announces himself a prophet and that all the other Christian groups are abominations. He does the same thing Mohammed did, mixing truth from the Bible with his own truth. And claiming the existing scriptures are to be believed but also that they are full of errors and omissions.
Almost all of Smith's original church leaders recanted and/or left the church. Do you call that success? Are those the fruits we are to know you by?
There is no reason to believe that Jesus spoke to Joseph Smith. Any more than there is reason to believe that an angel was sent with a different revelation to Mohammed, or that Warren Jefferies was also a prophet.
Mormon's have had more splits in their church than Christianity, yet Christianity has had 2000 years, while Mormonism has only had what 150? Do you call that success? Maybe those are the fruits we are to know you by?
ompare that to the Pew Forum, reporting affiliation by percentages of adults in the U.S.:
1. Protestant evangelical churches, 26.3%
2. Catholic, 23.9%
3. Protestant mainline, 18.1%
4. No religion, 16.1%
5. Protestant black, 6.9%
6. Jewish, 1.7%
7. Mormon, 1.7%
8. Jehovah’s Witness 0.7%
| Denomination | 1990 Est. Adult Pop. |
2001 Est. Adult Pop. |
2004 Est. Total Pop. |
Est. % of U.S. Pop., 2001 |
% Change 1990 - 2001 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Catholic | 46,004,000 | 50,873,000 | 71,796,719 | 24.5% | +11% |
| Baptist | 33,964,000 | 33,830,000 | 47,744,049 | 16.3% | 0% |
| Methodist/Wesleyan | 14,174,000 | 14,150,000 | 19,969,799 | 6.8% | 0% |
| Lutheran | 9,110,000 | 9,580,000 | 13,520,189 | 4.6% | +5% |
| Presbyterian | 4,985,000 | 5,596,000 | 7,897,597 | 2.7% | +12% |
| Pentecostal/Charismatic | 3,191,000 | 4,407,000 | 6,219,569 | 2.1% | +38% |
| Episcopalian/Anglican | 3,042,000 | 3,451,000 | 4,870,373 | 1.7% | +13% |
| Judaism | 3,137,000 | 2,831,000 | 3,995,371 | 1.3% | -10% |
| Latter-day Saints/Mormon | 2,487,000 | 2,697,000 | 3,806,258 | 1.3% | +8% |
| Churches of Christ | 1,769,000 | 2,593,000 | 3,659,483 | 1.2% | +47% |
| Congregational/ United Church of Christ |
599,000 | 1,378,000 | 1,944,762 | 0.7% | |
| Jehovah's Witnesses | 1,381,000 | 1,331,000 | 1,878,431 | 0.6% | -4% |
| Assemblies of God | 660,000 | 1,106,000 | 1,560,890 | 0.5% | +68% |
How should the true church of Christ be organized? See Ephesians 2:19-20 and 4:11-14. The true church of Jesus Christ has to have Apostles and Prophets.
How should the true church of Christ be led. See Matthew 15:15-18. Peter has received a revelation from God the Father that Jesus is the Christ. Jesus says that upon this rock (the act of receiving revelation) that his church will be built. The churches you listed do not have apostles and prophets to receive the revelations from God. Therefore they are not led of God but are led by men and the precepts of men. They decide what to believe in (such as, should homosexuality be allowed) by the vote of the people. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a democracy.
The churches you listed believe in a God that has no body no parts and no passion. I assure you that God does have a body, he has parts and he has passion.
Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. However, you do not need to take my word for it. Take the word of those leaders who worked with him, who received revelations simultaneously with him such as Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff etc.
I assure you that those Churches on that list are indeed led by a Prophet. You need to read Hebrews 1 (for a start).
And no, the LDS church is not led by a prophet or apostles. You are gravely mistaken.
Don’t forget to read Hebrews 3 while your at it.
Heb 3:1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
What is the definition of an Apostle? One who has seen Christ in the flesh and was sent by Him. Mormon apostles aren't apostles, they just call themselves that.
Only the early church had apostles. For your claim to be true it would imply that the world went without a true church for nearly 1800 years. Yet Jesus said nothing would prevail against the church. For your claim to be true, it would make Jesus a liar.
I agree with you that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a democracy. The church can function as a democracy, but it must have Jesus as it's head. When Jesus is forgotten and clear scriptural statements such as those on homosexuality or marriage are ignored, then it becomes tradition of men not God. Those churches have erred.
Of course if we look at Mormonism, we see polygamy first introduced in contradiction to the Old and New Testaments. What's more we see it declared "an eternal covenant". Yet then we see the LDS church abolished polygamy so that they can join the United States. How convenient!
The churches you listed believe in a God that has no body no parts and no passion. I assure you that God does have a body, he has parts and he has passion.
Your mistaken about what our churches believe. The Christian churches I know very much believe in a passionate God. And they believe both that God has parts, his back, his face and his hands are all mentioned in scripture, but he also is spirit and omnipresent. He's not a limited Josseph Smith version God that sits on the planet Kobold waiting his messengers to tell Him of activities on earth. No, He is present and active, and is already well aware of everything a messenger might tell Him.
"Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. ... Take the word of those leaders who worked with him, who received revelations simultaneously with him such as Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff etc."
There are more people who received revelations simultaneously with Smith and then recanted or left the church than there are who stayed. That should be a huge red flag!!!!
The valueless testimony of the Book of Mormon Witnesses This link examines Martin Harris, David Whitmer, and Oliver Cowdery in detail with references.
But let's look at witnesses you claim.
John Taylor in a debate with a Protestant minister denied that Mormons were involved in polygamy. Yet the man had multiple wives waiting for him at home at the time. LDS Leaders, Their Ethics and Lying for the Lord
Wilford Woodruff ...Wilford Woodruff signed "The Manifesto," pledging to Congress that Mormons had renounced polygamy; this was a prerequisite for statehood. He married again after this...
But here is what your Woodruff, also an alleged prophet also said "If we are going to do away with polygamy, it would only be one feather in the bird, one ordinance in the Church and Kingdom. Do away with that, then we must do away with the prophets and apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether." - Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p.166 1869
Brigham Young, take a look at this list of false prophecies.
You have red flags everywhere you turn in Mormonism, yet you still refuse to see the truth.
There is no reason to believe Smith was a prophet. There are many reasons to believe he wasn't.
“I assure you that those Churches on that list are indeed led by a Prophet. “
Which church or churches are you referring to? What is the name of their currently living Prophet? If those churches are being led by prophets, them why not merge together to form one church? The Lord had said If ye are not one ye are not mine.
Christ is the living head, the only high priest, or apostle we need.
Why on earth would you LDS substitute a fallible man into a position where only Christ belongs?
BTW Alan, you don't seem to realize this and so I'll tell you (in case you don't know). I was a Mormon for much of my life. Born and raised a sixth generation from my pioneer ancestors who came across the plains to Utah and who settled the same town in which I was born and raised. You are telling me nothing I don't already know - and know perhaps better than you yourself do.
Turn away from false prophets and fallible sinful men who masquerade as apostles and turn your life to Christ. He will fulfill you.
Yes I did read Hebrews. Apparently you did not read Ephesians.
Jesus Christ is the living head of the LDS church. He communicates to the Prophet and Apostles through revelations.
Even when Jesus was on earth he had 12 Apostles. Other churches do not have living Apostles and Prophets.
It's too bad that you delegate your guidance from Christ to do through men who are flesh and so are sinful. Why don't you go directly to the living source, Christ himself?
Christians need no "other source." Tell me, Alan, what was the last published "revelation" one of your prophets received?
You claim that Christians need no other source. However, 1Corinthians 12:11-30 clearly indicates the need for prophets and apostles and others.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Yes those are all spiritual gifts in the Church just as these preceding scriptures tell us....
Now answer me a question please. You quote this scripture: ...And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
That isn’t the way the callings are in the LDS Church is it. The Prophet is the head. He is placed in the #1 position. This scripture you quoted places prophets (plural) in the #2 position. Looks like the Mormons got it wrong again. There seem to be multiple prophets at a time doesnt’ there? There were certainly multiple prophets at one time in the Old Testament. What gives?
Also Eph 4:11
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
But tell me Alan if Mormonism emulates the structure of the early church, where in the Bible is there any mention of multiple high priests, Relief Society presidents, Second Quorum of the Seventies, stake presidencies, ward bishoprics, etc.? Where are the Mormon’s pastors, and evangelists?
My question to you is; Does you church have a currently living prophet and apostles? or have your feet said to its head I have no need of you, in violation of what 1 Corinthians 12 says.
Paul wasn't giving a prescription for setting up a Church. Paul is talking about coveting the gifts of others and he outlines in his letter that there are many gifts and callings in the body of believers and each gift is important and vital. Where do you find in scripture the LDS requirement to have a Prophet as “head” of your organization? Nowhere. But scripture plainly tells us that Jesus Christ is the final High Priest, he is the final head of His Church. He doesn't require a “figurehead” like Thomas Monson who makes up stories about widows, but who has “prophesied” absolutely nothing, just as his predecessor.
You are simply reading into the text something that is not there. So where are your Evangelists and Pastors?
Pastors are Bishops and evangelists are Patriarchs. The other positions fall under the category of helps and governments as found in verse 28 of 1 Corinthians 12.
The early church did not have 13 Million members as the Church does today. That is one of the reasons why we have a current leadership of Apostles and Prophets. They receive instructions from Jesus as to how he wants His church to be organized as it expands.
You are now a moving target. You’ve moved from a supposed fixed list of required “office” titles into a fluid one that you fill however you desire where titles have multiple tasks and peoples and can be called whatever you like. Which is it? Fixed or fluid?
Not according to the official word of mormonism which I am sure that you description above falls short of. Within the mormon hierarchy they most certainly do not wear the same hat. a 70 has no where near the authority of the presidency. Who is the only one allowed to officially speak for God in mormonism Alan.
Who led the Church after Christ ascended into heaven. It was Peter James and John acting as a 1st Presidency. We also have a 1st presidency today.
Both, depending upon the needs and the situation. That is why Jesus said that he would build His church on the act of receiving revelation. That is why we need Currently Living Prophets and Apostles to receive his ongoing instructions.
You still have not answered my question as to Does your church have a currently living Prophet and apostles.
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