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Prison Terms Upheld for Two Christians in Ethiopia
Compass Direct ^ | 09/25/09 | Compass Direct

Posted on 09/28/2009 7:48:38 AM PDT by Liberty1970

Prison Terms Upheld for Two Christians in Ethiopia

Judge rejects appeal of evangelists said to be falsely accused of offering money, gifts.

NAIROBI, Kenya, September 25 (CDN) — An Ethiopian court on Monday (Sept. 21) threw out an appeal by two evangelists said to be falsely accused of offering money and gifts to people to convert to Christianity, thus upholding their six-month prison sentences.

Temesgen Alemayehu and Tigist Welde Amanuel of Wengel Lealem church in Addis Ababa went to Debiretabor, Amhara state, to plant a church in July. After a week in the area, according to area Christian sources, their proclamation of Christ led several people to confess their sins and receive Him as Savior.

On July 19, however, some passersby began to question the two evangelists, and Christian sources said a heated argument led to a group attack on the two evangelists, wounding Alemayehu. Amanuel sustained minor injuries, the sources said, but managed to escape to a nearby home; the mob followed her into the compound, demanding she be handed over to them.

The homeowners refused, saying they would not cooperate with criminals and would instead hand her over to police. “I would not allow any attack against the woman,” the unidentified owner of the home said, according to one church leader.

Police arrived at the scene of the attack and protected Alemayehu from the violent band, made up of members of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (EOC), and took him into custody. The attacking group accused Alemayehu and Amanuel of insulting their religion.

Christian sources said a group within the EOC called “Mahibere Kidusan” (“Fellowship of Saints”) had incited members to attack the two evangelists as they were proclaiming Christ on the roadside. The increasingly powerful group’s purpose is to counter all reform movements within the EOC and shield the denomination from outside threats.

In time the EOC attackers fabricated accusations of offering money or gifts to make converts, Christian sources said, but under police questioning Alemayehu and Amanuel said they had only shared their faith to interested people without making such offers. They also tried to explain to police that it was their constitutional right to do so.

Police, however, submitted the attackers’ false statements to the district prosecutor, Christian sources said.

False Testimony On July 22, Alemayehu and Amanuel appeared at district court in Debiretabor to hear charges against them. A charge sheet claimed that they were caught offering money and gifts to people to change their religion, and Christian sources said witnesses falsely testified to that effect.

The next day, the court delivered a guilty verdict. Alemayehu stated that his only sin was telling of his faith in Christ to interested persons, and that he had a constitutional right to do so. The judge sentenced him and Amanuel to six months of prison.

Police immediately transferred both Christians to Debiretabor prison. “There is an open conspiracy between judges, police and prison officers,” the church leader said. “Police speeded up the investigation and brought it to the district prosecutor’s attention within a day. Witnesses were organized to falsely testify at court. The judges passed the sentence refusing the right to defense.”

Debiretabor is the seat for south Gondar Zone administration in Amhara state. As in the rest of Amhara, Debiretabor’s population is predominantly EOC with hostile attitudes towards evangelicals, Christian sources said. They added that churches already operating in Debiretabor and surrounding areas meet with continued EOC resistance.

In some cases, the sources said, EOC priests have urged attacks against Christians, and government authorities influenced by Mahibere Kidusan have infringed on Christians’ rights. It was unknown if the judge and police officers in Alemayehu and Amanuel’s case were under the influence of Mahibere Kidusan, but the local church leader said there were signs of bias in the case.

“Prison officials are handling both believers with harsh treatments, and after all these, no one is questioned for either the process or its result,” the church leader said. “We are waiting for God’s intervention on all this.”

In the rejection of the appeal, the high court judge said that he found “no mistake of law interpretation” to change the verdict of the lower court, a Christian source said.

“That means now the two believers have to serve the six-month sentence unless they appeal and achieve something at the regional State Supreme Court,” he said. “We heard that the two are thinking of appealing at the regional State Supreme Court in Bahirdar soon.”

Amanuel is assigned to a cell where criminals including serial killers are serving their terms, a source said, and they have threatened her. Both she and Alemayehu continue to share their faith in Christ with other inmates, in spite of insults from the prisoners.

Church leaders in Debiretabor said they brought the case to the attention of the regional state vice president, and that he sent his representative to visit Alemayehu and Amanuel in prison. The representative discussed the situation with the district court and with police. Sources said the visits, however, only exacerbated conditions for the two Christians by upsetting prison officers.

Starting on Aug. 26, prison officials forbade visits to Amanuel and Alemayehu for at least 15 days. They also stopped food from being brought them, a common practice among all prisoners whose relatives are able to help them.

“I went on Aug. 20 to meet them in prison, but officers at the gate told me that they have an order to stop any visitor,” the church leader in Debiretabor said. “I think our report to the regional authorities made some contribution to this decision.”

END


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion; Moral Issues; Prayer
KEYWORDS: ethiopia; orthodox; persecution
Note that in this case it is putative members of the 'Orthodox church' engaged in the persecution. The Ethiopian church goes back to the early centuries after Christ. Another case of an institutionalized church becoming corrupt and becoming more an enemy than a friend to the Gospel through worldly and misplaced priorities?
1 posted on 09/28/2009 7:48:39 AM PDT by Liberty1970
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To: chase19; proudofthesouth; agrace; reaganaut; DocRock; RatRipper; Genoa; TaraP; Dinah Lord; ...

*Ping*

This is a Ping-List for reports of persecution against Christians. Please message me or reply if you would like to be added.

“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.” Matthew 5:10-11

“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...” Matthew 5:44


2 posted on 09/28/2009 7:49:26 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: Liberty1970

The article justaposes “Christians” with members and clergy of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

Since both sides claim to be “Christians,” it would be more appropriate to list the denomination of the group being persecuted.


3 posted on 09/28/2009 7:51:48 AM PDT by Sherman Logan ("The price of freedom is the toleration of imperfections." Thomas Sowell)
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To: Liberty1970

But why are they trying to convert people who are already Christians?


4 posted on 09/28/2009 7:52:29 AM PDT by brooklyn dave (Where's the birth cert?)
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To: brooklyn dave

Maybe they weren’t.


5 posted on 09/28/2009 7:53:39 AM PDT by Larry Lucido (This tagline excerpted. To read more, click on MyOverratedBlog.com)
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To: brooklyn dave
But why are they trying to convert people who are already Christians?

A Christian is someone who has repented and placed their faith in Jesus Christ to atone for their sins. Even in countries that claim to be "Christian" only a portion, usually a tragically small portion, has really done this. Most just assume that their parentage or baptism or showing up in church occasionally or something makes them a Christian. It does not. These people need Christ, and their ungodly response only confirms it.

According to surveys in the U.S. something like 75%-80% of the population claims to be Christian. If you look at it from biblical criteria, though, I'd estimate the number of Christians is probably more like 10-20%. I don't mean to define this according to denominational lines either, just the biblical criteria for a steady faith in Christ that is reflected in (not caused by) resulting good works.

6 posted on 09/28/2009 8:00:48 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: brooklyn dave

They may have tried to convert Ethiopian Christians into a different denomination, or Ethiopian Muslims.


7 posted on 09/28/2009 8:01:17 AM PDT by SolidWood (Sarah Palin: "Only dead fish go with the flow!")
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To: Larry Lucido

By the way the article reads, it sounds as though the folks they were trying to convert were members of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church which by the way has been around since the third century.


8 posted on 09/28/2009 8:01:50 AM PDT by brooklyn dave (Where's the birth cert?)
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To: brooklyn dave

Till quite recently, missionaries from other denominations were treated quite roughly in many Catholic and Orthodox countries.

Greece comes to mind, back before it became a post-Christian country.

Back in the 90s Russia banned a number of religious denomination from sending missionaries, apparently at least partly at the request of the Russian Orthodox Church.


9 posted on 09/28/2009 8:05:42 AM PDT by Sherman Logan ("The price of freedom is the toleration of imperfections." Thomas Sowell)
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To: brooklyn dave; Liberty1970

This just displays the arrogance of certain “Reformed” Christians. “Oh, your church isn’t ‘biblical,’ so you’re aren’t Christian.”


10 posted on 09/28/2009 8:05:57 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480
This just displays the arrogance of certain “Reformed” Christians. “Oh, your church isn’t ‘biblical,’ so you’re aren’t Christian.”

As a Catholic, it annoys me as well to have people proclaim that only their particular sect is "Christian".

11 posted on 09/28/2009 8:10:34 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (Public healthcare looks like it will work as well as public housing did.)
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To: Pyro7480
This just displays the arrogance of certain “Reformed” Christians. “Oh, your church isn’t ‘biblical,’ so you’re aren’t Christian.”

Who is being arrogant here? Are you defending acts of persecution against Christians simply because they don't support the 'home church'?

Paul commended the Bereans for studying Scriptures for themselves. Likewise every Christian is called upon to learn and apply Scripture in their own life. That means seeking to understand what is 'biblical' for themselves. When you denigrate others for seeking to learn how to live biblically, you are essentially criticizing Christians for not following a church authority on blind faith.

Another article I posted this morning dealt with attacks on a Catholic church (or that is what I assume it was). I posted it because I am concerned about violence perpetrated against all Christians for the sake of their faith. Should I stop posting such articles and only consider people of exactly my own doctrine to be "real" Christians? Because that is how some apologists for the Orthodox church and its heavy-handed enforcers sometimes come across.

12 posted on 09/28/2009 8:29:14 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: brooklyn dave

I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that the evangelists are seeking to attract non-Christians and non-believers. Granted, though, some evangelists do try to “convert” other Christians to their brand of Christianity.


13 posted on 09/28/2009 9:13:36 AM PDT by Larry Lucido (This tagline excerpted. To read more, click on MyOverratedBlog.com)
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To: Liberty1970

I’m sorry but this reads like outright propaganda. I’ll place this in the spurious pile pending further research. I’ve done some further internet searches, and haven’t come up with any other sources. If you have any please post me a link.


14 posted on 09/28/2009 10:00:43 AM PDT by arielguard (Fasting without prayer is vainglory.)
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To: Liberty1970; brooklyn dave; arielguard

“A Christian is someone who has repented and placed their faith in Jesus Christ to atone for their sins.”

Do you claim that Ethiopian Orthodox Christians don’t follow this? Do you know any Ethipian Orthodox Christians? Have you ever been to one of their temples? Have you ever worshiped our triune God with them? I have. I worship with Orthodox Ethiopians every Sunday. They have no need of “evangelical” preachers.

“Most just assume that their parentage or baptism or showing up in church occasionally or something makes them a Christian. It does not.”

I see that you are from Illinois. Does this qualify you to pass judgment on the faithfulness of one of the oldest Christian peoples on earth? Where did you get this base canard, from something some blow dried preacher man said after he told you to bring your own snake to the revival?

“These people need Christ, and their ungodly response only confirms it.”

Their response might have been the righteous response of Orthodox Christians to the preachers of soul destroying heresy!


15 posted on 09/28/2009 10:40:10 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Liberty1970; Pyro7480

“Another article I posted this morning dealt with attacks on a Catholic church (or that is what I assume it was).”

You know, you really should get straight just what are the various particular churches which make up The Church. Your article is about Copts, non Chacedonian Christians. They are not “Catholics” as in Roman Catholics, but rather more like Orthodox Christians though they are respected and honored by both the Latins and the Orthodox. Copts are allowed to receive communion in Orthodox Churches. We have several in my parish.

“Because that is how some apologists for the Orthodox church and its heavy-handed enforcers sometimes come across.”

No member of a particular church within The Church, Orthodox, Latin, Oriental Orthodox, non Chalcedonian nor any in communion with the foregoing, need “coverting” by any evangelical.


16 posted on 09/28/2009 10:48:04 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Liberty1970

Yes, there are wide tracts of this world which haven’t even been exposed to the Gospel, yet these upstart Christian communities find it fit to go to Ethiopia, Philippines, and Brazil on “missions.”


17 posted on 09/28/2009 11:28:18 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Kolokotronis
Do you claim that Ethiopian Orthodox Christians don’t follow this? Do you know any Ethipian Orthodox Christians? Have you ever been to one of their temples? Have you ever worshiped our triune God with them? I have. I worship with Orthodox Ethiopians every Sunday. They have no need of “evangelical” preachers.

You (and others here from an orthodox perspective) are badly misunderstanding me. I have known Ethiopian Christians (in college I used to swap Christmas work slots in the computer lab with one friend since we celebrated Christmas on different days, for example).

My issue here is WITH PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS BUT DON'T BELIEVE. People who think having their name on a membership roll at some church building entitles them to salvation, or who assume they are 'Christian' because they know grandma was. There are people like this all around the world, not just in 'Orthodox' lands, and they ALL need to be reached. I KNOW, because I WAS ONE OF THEM.

Someone had an issue with sending missionaries to these lands because these lands are already 'Christian'. This is nonsense - by this logic we shouldn't do evangelism in our own neighborhood in 'Christian' America. I struggle to understand the hostility of 'Orthodox' church members to sharing of the Gospel.

What I'm seeing here is that some would practically condemn a person to Hell by preventing missionaries from reaching them, rather than allow a missionary of a different denomination to do the reaching. That is a misplaced priority, no matter how important we consider our doctrines (and they _are_ important, I would agree - just not more so than salvation itself.)

18 posted on 09/28/2009 11:57:17 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: Kolokotronis
You know, you really should get straight just what are the various particular churches which make up The Church. Your article is about Copts, non Chacedonian Christians. They are not “Catholics” as in Roman Catholics, but rather more like Orthodox Christians though they are respected and honored by both the Latins and the Orthodox. Copts are allowed to receive communion in Orthodox Churches. We have several in my parish.

I was referring to a church named after 'St. Francis' in India, in another article.

No member of a particular church within The Church, Orthodox, Latin, Oriental Orthodox, non Chalcedonian nor any in communion with the foregoing, need “coverting” by any evangelical.

Non-Christians need to be saved. It is Jesus Christ who saves, not membership in any church (whether reformed, RC, Orthodox, etc.) I agree with you that a believing member of such churches does not need converting. But there are many who call themselves members of a church (whether Baptist, Presbyterian, Orthodox, Catholic, etc. ad nauseum) who do not have faith in Christ. Those people need to be reached. And insisting that only the church they align themselves can do the reaching is unhelpful to the cause of Christ.

This is not an Orthodox vs. anybody else thing. I'm sorry that so many have taken it that way. If I see reports of Orthodox missionaries being beaten up by Amish rioters, hey, I'll be as quick to share it. I am saddened and ashamed that rather than praying and seeking conciliation and condemning sin, so many claiming the Lordship of Christ have instead engaged in bitter acrimony and tacitly approved of persecution against believers.

19 posted on 09/28/2009 12:07:26 PM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: Liberty1970; Pyro7480; arielguard

“Someone had an issue with sending missionaries to these lands because these lands are already ‘Christian’. This is nonsense....”

Its not even close to nonsense, especially in Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Belorussia, Russia, Greece, places like Ethiopia, Armenia, Georgia, Ukraine, the Phillipines and most of South and Central America. Those are Orthodox or Roman Catholic or Non-Chalcedonian Christian lands. Are there non Christians or bad Christians there? Of course, but the evangelical form of Christianity espoused by mostly American or American inspired ecclesial groups is completely foreign to the cultures of these countries. Their “catholicism”, be it Latin, Orthodox, Oriental orthodox, etc, is definitional of their cultures. Your evangelicalism is not. It is destructive of those cultures. It is better for The Faith and the people that The Faith be inculcated by the ancient Faith of the people. What you are suggesting is a sort of American evangelical imperialism.

As for America, well, this country is a spiritual mess. Its only real god is money and “stuff”. There’s no cultural Christianity here, really; at least not any more. Evangelize to your heart’s content here.


20 posted on 09/28/2009 12:57:31 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Liberty1970; Pyro7480; arielguard

“I am saddened and ashamed that rather than praying and seeking conciliation and condemning sin, so many claiming the Lordship of Christ have instead engaged in bitter acrimony and tacitly approved of persecution against believers.”

What we see are religious/cultural imperialists. If the concern were really the salvation of souls and if the evangelicals really believed that salvation was found in the local particular churches, wouldn’t it be better to send support funds to local Orthodox or Latin parish priests for outreach? That’s never done though, which leads me to believe that the actions of these people are somewhat less than innocent.


21 posted on 09/28/2009 1:01:51 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Liberty1970
No one here would argue that roughing-up the two missionaries was called for, or that such behavior reflects "good Christian witness." But your complaint that such behavior is "Another case of an institutionalized church becoming corrupt and becoming more an enemy than a friend to the Gospel through worldly and misplaced priorities?" rings a little hollow.

These missionaries were in the area seeking converts before they were roughed-up, were they not? Before they had any physical threats to demonstrate a lack of Christian presence in the area. Why? Simple. Because they didn't feel that the church people already belonged to was sufficiently "Christian." They were "witnesses among pagans" in their own minds, no doubt. In other words, they were inflicting themselves on the local population, unbidden, with the not-so-tacit message that they and they only were bringing the Gospel message to the area for perhaps the first time since Acts 1 and the original Pentecost. Their being physically mistreated is a completely separate issue from considerations about whether they thought of the populace as already Christian. My suspicion is strong that they do not look upon Orthodox or Coptic Christians as anything other than "missionary fruit."

Even the article title is misleading along the same lines. The title makes it clear that the only Christians in the story are the two missionaries. That is pretty arrogant! And I would suppose further that the article's POV can be held up to your own litmus test for scrutiny: "Another case of an institutionalized church becoming corrupt and becoming more an enemy than a friend to the Gospel through worldly and misplaced priorities?" From the townspeople's POV, you certainly should be able to "get" that they would see some irony in your statement.

What the people did to these two men was wrong, and dragged whatever semblance of Christian virtue they normally may have had right into the mud with them. But I certainly don't see a problem if they - rather non-politely - had shown these people the roadway out of town. Their mere presence, with urgent appeals to "become Christian," was an insult to everything the town - in its better moments - no doubt holds dear. Let's not be too unctuous about this episode; if it were, instead, a story about the same townspeople cuffing around two Moslem missionaries, no one here would bat an eye, and many would praise the action outright.

In the meantime, these two men have probably endured more than they bargained for already. Let them go free, send them on their way and be done with it. This article simply fails to strike the right chords. The sensibilities behind your observation about "more enemies than friends" should be looked at from both perspectives here.

22 posted on 09/28/2009 1:59:26 PM PDT by magisterium
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To: Kolokotronis; magisterium
What we see are religious/cultural imperialists.

I humbly suggest that creating institutional churches that claim to be the sole representative of Christ in these lands, and then blocking out and harassing any other Christian witness, is the real religious imperialism.

23 posted on 09/28/2009 2:22:06 PM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: Liberty1970
Would that "sole representative of Christ in these lands" mentality just possibly be along the same lines as what the two missionaries had as well?

Look, the article itself said that the two were making attempts to "convert" people to "Christianity." The Christian townspeople themselves, not any high-powered representatives of their church, felt pretty insulted by that attitude. What they did was wrong. But it is "understandable," too. Perhaps it might be better for future missionaries from U.S.-based Evangelical, Fundamentalist and other groups to think-through the implications of their being in lands where the overwhelming majority consider themselves to live in an already-Christian culture. The missionaries invariably come across as smarmy, condescending to often thousands of years'-worth of highly developed, active Christian culture, and every bit as elitist and exclusivist as any "institutional churches" might be.

The problem with the article is that it whines about mistreatment (fair enough), and then gives not too subtle hints that the very mission of these two was intentionally disrespectful of the culture they found. The article writer's POV apparently does not even consider the irony! Complain all you want about the physical abuse, but don't adopt a posture of shock and amazement over it. One should expect such treatment (even if it's a poor witness to Christ's teachings), because fallen human nature often resorts to it when threats are perceived.

And, again, I would be willing to bet that, had this been a story about two Moslem convert seekers in this Ethiopian town, and they were dismissively cuffed out of town, most people here would say "Ya done GOOD!!" That goes double had such a scenario taken place here in America. So, I imagine the principle of non-violent disagreement with meddling evangelists would not need to be thought over, no?

Hypocrisy abounds in this story, from all sides. Your two missionaries are hardly the perfectly innocent evangelists they are painted to be. Perhaps they should go deal with people who have zero affiliation with pre-existing Christian groups. There are plenty such all through Africa and elsewhere. These guys weren't too far away from Moslem lands; perhaps they can see what they can stir up there, once they get out of the slam. If they insist on inflicting themselves on existing Christian communities in such a way as to deny the Christian nature of those communities, they need to consider that similar physical confrontations might be in their future again. It ain't "right" for people to treat them this way, but it's hardly "unpredictable," either.

24 posted on 09/28/2009 3:33:57 PM PDT by magisterium
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To: Liberty1970; magisterium; Pyro7480; arielguard

“I humbly suggest that creating institutional churches that claim to be the sole representative of Christ in these lands, and then blocking out and harassing any other Christian witness, is the real religious imperialism.”

What earthly, or heavenly, use is your evangelical
“Christian witness” to a people who have been Christian for 1700 years? here’s the truth. What these people represent is American evangelical protestant financed religious and cultural imperialism. Like I said, if what these folks, and those who support them, were really after was the saving of souls, they would send their money and expertise (if any they have) to the local particular churches which make up parts of The Church and not send people out there to “convert” anyone. The truth is that these ecclesial groups and their running dogs, with sadly typical American evangelical pride, don’t think that Latins, or Orthodox, or Copts, or Non Chalcedonians and other Oriental Orthodox or those in communion with them are really Christians at all and are thus fair game. Frankly, I think they are lucky the cops rescued their sorry necks from the beating they justly deserved.


25 posted on 09/28/2009 4:09:17 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
What earthly, or heavenly, use is your evangelical “Christian witness” to a people who have been Christian for 1700 years?

You and I clearly have a different definition of Christianity. I don't believe in a "Christian people". The Jews had that mindset at the time of Christ - that they were saved because they belonged to the "right" people. Jesus wasted no time in tearing into them about that lie. He told them being a physical ancestor of Abraham was worthless. He could make ancestors of Abraham out of stones for all it mattered. What really mattered was their own heart, their own faith, and their own relationship to God.

So, no, I don't believe there is any such thing as a "Christian people." There are only Christian individuals in a larger population. Satan uses the "Christian people" lie to lull people to sleep, to deny them Gospel witness and make them think they are saved even as they continue in self-righteousness, personal unbelief and unrepentant rebelliousness against God.

26 posted on 09/29/2009 5:49:01 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: Liberty1970; magisterium; Pyro7480; arielguard

“You and I clearly have a different definition of Christianity.”

Agreed. That in part explains American protestantism’s willingness to destroy Eastern Christian communities in pursuit of America’s foreign policy agenda. It also explains why your “missionaries” will continue to be jailed when they try to peddle their innovative, confused and often heretical theology in Christian countries. The Fathers remind us that heretics are the enemies of God. Quite rightly they are treated as such.

“Satan uses the “Christian people” lie to lull people to sleep, to deny them Gospel witness and make them think they are saved even as they continue in self-righteousness, personal unbelief and unrepentant rebelliousness against God.”

Who denies Christian people in The Church Gospel witness? There is Gospel witness in every Divine Liturgy and Mass throughout the world. And who is it that teaches that one is “saved” though not believing and having failed to repent for their sins? Do you evangelicals with your distinctly American 19th/20th century religious world view think that is what is happening in The Church? What complete nonsense!


27 posted on 09/29/2009 6:28:16 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
I grew up in a (very conservative) Lutheran church that frequently alluded to this argument - that the liturgy provided a Gospel witness. I suppose that is true, but just barely so. Jesus himself warned against pointless repetition in prayers, and when I see a group of people at a liturgical church rattling off the worship reponses on autopilot I'm afraid there is little of spiritual value going on. Some, perhaps, but not as much as hoped. I saw firsthand the lack of spiritual growth in such churches, even where there was a genuine attempt uphold Scripture.

Of course non-liturgical churches have their own challenges, and there is plenty of bad theology and practice to be found in them as well. But on the whole, when I look at the whole liturgical church world - from Catholic and Anglican to Lutheran to Orthodox - I see a pretty dead church, lacking in vibrancy, its members (and even leaders) largely disbelieving their own historical doctrines, and little attention given to personal Bible study and personal spiritual development and discipline.

We (by which I mean Bible-believing Christians of all denominations) will continue to work to spread the Gospel, and I pray that such imprisonments and persecutions only awaken more people to the need they have for a real and personal faith and repentance. And if some people are "offended" then so be it, for it is more important to save souls from Hell then to timidly avoid "offending" someone.

I suppose my esteem of the Orthodox church will recover eventually, but I have to say this thread has not shown the Orthodox church in the best light. I can only hope that the hostility shown here by its members and their willingness to persecute other believers is not representative of the Orthodox church as a whole.

28 posted on 09/29/2009 8:14:45 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: Liberty1970; magisterium; Pyro7480; arielguard

“I see a pretty dead church, lacking in vibrancy, its members (and even leaders) largely disbelieving their own historical doctrines....”

How many Divine Liturgies have you attended?

A bit over 1000 years ago, Prince Vladimir of Kiev, a pagan, sent out emissaries to the Germans, the Bulgars and the Greeks at Constantinople to observe their religious practices. Here’s what the envoys reported back:

“When we journeyed among the Bulgars, we beheld how they worship in their temple, called a mosque, while they stand ungirt. The Bulgarian bows, sits down, looks hither and thither like one possessed, and there is no happiness among them, but instead only sorrow and a dreadful stench. Their religion is not good. Then we went among the Germans, and saw them performing many ceremonies in their temples; but we beheld no glory there. Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty. Every man, after tasting something sweet, is afterward unwilling to accept that which is bitter, and therefore we cannot dwell longer here.”

True story, L. Still true today and all done without praise bands or light shows!


29 posted on 09/29/2009 8:53:22 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Liberty1970; magisterium; Pyro7480; arielguard
If it is a dead church why did Ugandans seek out to join the Orthodox church on their own?

The issue here is Protestants going into nations just recovering from the Satanic Communistic genocide where the people are trying to heal the wounds inflicted on their cultures.

No Protestants are jailed in Cyprus or Greece which did not suffer - and thus need - that protection.

PS: Outside of Finland which made the Orthodox Church the second official church of the nation (the other being the majority Lutheran church) the Orthodox church has no legal standing in any European country as an official church. Influence, yes - officialdom - no.

In countries where communism did damage you are seeing policies to protect the damaged social structure against religious movements that are from other nations and thus do not help the nation recover from the damage done.

My hope is that these nations can recover from the damage inflicted by communism in time to ignore outside proselytizing the way they are ignored in Greece, etc.

30 posted on 09/29/2009 9:57:39 AM PDT by Nikas777 (En touto nika, "In this, be victorious")
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To: Liberty1970
"I suppose my esteem of the Orthodox church will recover eventually, but I have to say this thread has not shown the Orthodox church in the best light. I can only hope that the hostility shown here by its members and their willingness to persecute other believers is not representative of the Orthodox church as a whole"

On the one hand, you tell us in post 26 that there is no such thing as a "Christian people," and true discipleship is only found at the level of the individual believer. On the other hand, your statement above seems to abandon the individualist principle you claimed, and makes a blanket condemnation of the Orthodox based on the actions of some of the townspeople with regard to the attack on these two missionaries. There isn't the slightest indication that the entire town (or anything close to it) responded in a violent fashion. There was only a group of people, exact size unknown from the article. The woman who took them in and stood up for them was probably Orthodox herself. Do her actions mitigate collective Orthodox "guilt"? Appeals to the faith of the individual marking the highest level of order within Christendom, when juxtaposed on a verdict of collective guilt based on religious denomination, seem rather inconsistent to me.

The situation described in the article doesn't really have anything to do with perceptions of "turf." The situation more accurately is described with respect to "arrogance." If Copts, Catholics or even these two missionaries lived in the town, or arrived to simply live there, it is very possible that no one would mind, at least in any directly confrontational way. The problem here is that these two men came to town to "convert" the populace to "Christianity," as if it didn't exist there till the moment they arrived.

I am not aware of any Orthodox or Coptic or Catholic "institutional churches" that compel membership or continuance in membership. No death warrants for apostates are issued, as one could find in the Moslem world. But, surely, on a purely human level, it shouldn't be too hard to understand that the approach and stated goals of these two men was almost guaranteed to rankle the sensibilities of the townsfolk, no?

If you are insistent that the corporate Church has no standing, and the highest level of organization that has moral responsibility for the maintenance of the Faith rests with the individual believer (an erroneous notion, based just on Matthew 18 alone, among many possible citations, but that's for another day), then you should be equally insistent that the harmful actions of a group of Christians do not neccesarily reflect on their overall denominational membership, but on their own individual consciences only.

The bottom line seems to be that the article writer, as Kolokotronis already noted, clearly doesn't think the Orthodox population of that town (or anywhere else!) is actually "Christian" at all, and therefore is "fair game" for conversion efforts, as if they were full-blown pagans. The townspeople no-doubt instinctively noted the same attitude in the two missionaries, and reacted against it. They went way beyond anything justifiable in the eyes of Christ,I would readily concede. But they reacted according to their (and our) wounded human nature, and I submit that the article's author, and a very large percentage of the Evangelical communities' individual members would react in similar fashion if members of a different Christian group tried to "convert them to Christianity," as if they were not already. And the self-righteously implied "principle" of non-violence would go straight out the window with these people if they were approached by Moslems with the same goal in mind as these two men had.

Disclaimer: I am most definitely not Eastern Orthodox myself. But I wouldn't even dream to think that I could proselytize them on the basis that they are not already Christian! And that would be on either a collective or individual basis! These two guys should have considered the temerity of their foundational assumptions before approaching their marks. And while they shouldn't have been dealt with violently, on a human level, they are probably lucky that that Orthodox woman stood up to the crowd in their defense; it would have gone very badly for them otherwise!

31 posted on 09/29/2009 11:44:17 AM PDT by magisterium
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