Posted on 09/06/2009 7:19:16 AM PDT by Colofornian
Dear Editor,
The Guyana political opposition is all up in arms about the story of the group of Mormons who have clearly broken the country’s immigration laws. Interestingly, the lawbreakers are all Americans and opposition activists are keenly playing up this aspect rather than seeing their departure as merely a procedural aspect of law and order. The government has said that the church may send in replacement missionaries provided their paperwork is intact.
Recently, the opposition has taken to cozying up to anything American, even writing to the American government and asking the Obama administration to meddle in local politics.
Observers are noting that the Mormon episode could be yet another poor attempt by the opposition to create tension between the US and Guyana governments. Is the American government so gullible that it would base its foreign policy on a group of Mormon lawbreakers? Who knows?
Some in Guyana go so far as to say that US policy regarding this country should be based on the testimony of an admitted gangster who testified against an American lawyer in a Brooklyn courtroom. Apparently desperate people imagine desperate things.
Is the Mormon Church so in need of followers that it would allow itself to be used as political cannon fodder in a country where they are guests?
Meanwhile, an Associated Press (AP) story quoted attorney Nigel Hughes as saying that the Mormons have about $2 million in Guyana and so he asked, “Why then expel them?” This lawyer is clearly not familiar with the laws and the consequences of breaking them or maybe, in Guyana, once you dangle $2 million the law no longer applies.
Mormons “do great missionary work and cultivate farms in the country,” Hughes said, and I immediately thought, how strange, he could have said exactly the same thing about the Jim Jones cult!
Yours faithfully,
Justin de Freitas
So should all faiths be forced to recall missionaries? Or just the faiths that we don’t like?
One thing that I wish the Catholic Church would do better is prosyletizing. Most of the heretical sects do it and rather effectively but not so much for us. Almost all Catholics are Catholics because of ethnicity, be their country of origin in Europe or who occupied the country as a colony. We do possess the true message of God and we should do a better job of spreading it to people.
Within the country they are headquartered in, also.
LDS missionaries: Undocumented immigrants walk fine line when spreading their faith
It's a balancing act for LDS authorities, given that many of the main opponents of undocumented immigrants also happen to be Mormon.
From that perspective, undocumented immigrants are violating church principles, especially the 12th Article of Faith, which says members believe in "obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."
"If they're undocumented, they are not legal," says state Sen. Scott Jenkins, R-Plain City, a former LDS missionary. "If they are working, they are using another person's Social Security number. It is wrong."
"We're not agents of the immigration service, and we don't pretend to be," apostle Jeffrey R. Holland told The Salt Lake Tribune recently, "and we also won't break the law."
To that end, the church sends missionaries among undocumented immigrants, baptizing many of them without ever asking about their status. It also allows them to go to the temple and on missions.
Well, it appears from their own statement, lds knowingly break immigration law in every country they are involved in.
From the opinion piece: Mormons “do great missionary work and cultivate farms in the country,” Hughes said, and I immediately thought, how strange, he could have said exactly the same thing about the Jim Jones cult!
Do you think Mormons are the only Religion who send missionaries to other poor countries and help them with farming? But admitting they aren’t the only ones wouldn’t give you another chance to bash Mormons.
Pay attention to the mention of "work permits".
Lds usually have retired couples who perform humanitarian efforts in other countries. For these couples, "work permits" would be in order. But they are such a small sliver of the 60,000 worldwide Lds missionaries, most of whom are 19 & 20 & 21 yo lads.
I believe FReeper Colorcountry posted a complete weekly schedule of what Lds missionaries are "reined in" by. (I'll try to find you the link).
She posted a condensed version of the complete schedule at: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2273703/posts (post #27), which included their rigorous out-of-the-apartment by 10 a.m. to 9 p.m. schedule -- and the only day off for them is "Preparation Day." Here's what Colorcountry noted:
And how many of those religions have rules:
Consider a few:
You may only call other missionaries within your district.
You may call home [only] on Mother’s Day and Christmas for 45 minutes.
Missionaries may only access mldsmail.net, lds.org, mormon.org and josephsmith.net.
Internet usage [allowed only one day a week] is only permissible if companions can see each other’s screens. No exceptions.
Missionaries may only e-mail family.
The following music is approved: Especially For Youth, church-produced music, LDS hymns, Mormon Tabernacle Choir, appropriate Christmas music (i.e., no rock) and classical music.
Please strictly follow the Elbow Rule: Always be near enough to your companion to hear him at a whisper while outside of the apartment. Do not separate for long periods of time within the apartment.
Missionaries may watch “The Other Side of Heaven” [a movie by Mormon filmmaker Mitch Davis] on preparation day only.
100% on the plan: Out of bed by 6:30 a.m. (not 6:31). One full hour of personal and companionship studies (not 59 minutes). Out of the apartment by 10 a.m. (not 10:01). One hour for lunch at the most. One hour for dinner, the latest time being from 5 p.m. to 6 p.m. Be out of the members’ houses by 6 p.m. (not 6:01). Be in by 9 p.m. If you are teaching, you may be out until 9:30 p.m. at the latest. Plan the next day’s activities starting right when you get in the apartment. Be either in your bed or praying by 10:30 p.m. (not 10:31).
Anyway, your comment shows you don't know how rigorously Lds missionaries are scheduled -- and they're not out "farming" farms (except, as I said, perhaps for the retired humanitarian couples the Lds church uses -- and they don't usually have a tremendous number of these couples operating in the same country).
The young Lds missionaries do not have the time -- and most do not "crop up" out of farms to have the experience or training to be running these kinds of farms.
But I guess admitting to all of this wouldn't give you a chance to religiously bash me as a "basher," would it?
More Communist propaganda taken as gospel truth. Gotta love it when alleged Conservatives take the word of Communists at face value. Kinda makes you wonder about just how committed to Conservatism they are, eh Jim?
See post #10. Also, the Deseret News said Friday that three Lds missionaries had been cleared to stay, and another 13 were "unclear." 50 were being asked to voluntarily leave the country because their work permits & visas weren't in order.
If I had to 100% guess, I'd say the ones who were cleared or were in unsure status re: any possible "work permits" were the retired Lds humanitarian couples probably operating in the country. (I know Lds do this in Africa; so it'd make sense they do that elsewhere).
Otherwise, if the Lds church were claiming their young missionaries were "working" -- pray, tell, when? When would they have time? When would they be able to break free from their leashes of proselytizing & quarters' confinement that Lds mission presidents lock them under? They have no free time. They can't get away for a funeral if their parent dies. etc etc etc
Right as you were typing this, R, I was responding to Grunthor & mentioned this: Also, the Deseret News said Friday that three Lds missionaries had been cleared to stay, and another 13 were "unclear." 50 were being asked to voluntarily leave the country because their work permits & visas weren't in order.
You don't consider the Lds church owned Deseret News as a source of "more Communist propaganda" do you?
Kinda makes you wonder about just how committed to Conservatism they are
The other thing, as you can see, that I just mentioned to Grunthor was: Otherwise, if the Lds church were claiming their young missionaries were "working" -- pray, tell, when? When would they have time? When would they be able to break free from their leashes of proselytizing & quarters' confinement that Lds mission presidents lock them under? They have no free time. They can't get away for a funeral if their parent dies. etc etc etc
I'll try to find the typical Lds missionary weekly sched Colorcountry posted a while back -- because it doesn't match up very well with what you portend to be free-liberty "conservatism"...how can Lds missionaries on such tightly scheduled, no exception "leashes" be deemed by you as a "free liberty" representation?
Go on. If you went on a mission -- tell us how tightly controlled you were. Tell us about the holiday times Lds missionaries have with their families? Tell us about the Mothers days and Fathers days. And you represent all of that as "free liberty" conservatism?
I did not know the Desert News was communist propaganda.
I find your continued whining to JR very interesting in light of your previous comment to him.
Not to mention you seem to think you are immune from all the Religion Forum rules....makes one wonder what you may know that the rest of us just suspect.
Ah, I found it. It wasn't colorcountry's post, but from another ex-Mormon, Reaganaut:
Secondary Source May 2009 -- http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2247259/posts (post #21) -- but I cut & pasted it.
So, Reaganesque, is the following your representational idea of what "free republic, free liberty" is all about???? Massive, intrusive, micromanagement of Lds missionaries where everything is tightly controlled from the outside-in vs. instead of operating from the inside-out where the Holy Ghost helps them maintain self-discipline and self-control & self-government?
Hasn't Jim Robinson given us a marvelous forum where we can focus on the outstanding principles of self-government without having a government nanny look after every jot & tittle of our lives? Why does the following reveal a Mormon government 50 times worse than your most overbearing bureaucratic secular government? And if you don't like communism overcontrol, why haven't you addressed your own Mormon government about the following?
Here's what Reaganaut posted:
Some would say that the LDS missionary program is close to slave labor.
These boys often live on Top Ramen for 2 years (running joke is you will never eat Top Ramen again), occasionally getting a home cooked meal (how often varies on the Mission they are assigned to). They have NO personal time. They live on very little money, no matter how much their family pays in every month and have schedules/rules like the following:
1. Learn and obey all missionary rules.
2. Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
3. Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
4. Don’t debate or argue.
5. Center your mind on your mission.
6. Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.
7. Cut your hair regularly.
8. Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
9. Be neat and clean.
10. Bathe frequently.
11. Use deodorant.
12. Polish your shoes.
13. Iron your shirt and business suit.
14. Arise at 6:30 A.M.
15. Study for 2 hours every morning.
16. Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
17. Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
18. Exercise regularly.
19. Write in your journal regularly.
20. Follow the “Missionary Gospel Study Program” (31157) for your personal study.
21. Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
22. Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
23. Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
24. Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
25. Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
26. Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you’ll find people home.
27. End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
28. Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
29. Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
30. Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
31. Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
32. Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
33. Don’t communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
34. Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
35. Stay with your companion during all activities.
36. Do not go on road trips.
37. Do not leave your assigned area without permission (”District leaders must approve travel outside your area within the district; zone leaders must approve travel outside your district within the zone; and the mission president must approve travel outside the zone.”)
38. Do not watch television.
39. Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
40. Do not listen to the radio.
41. Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
42. Do not participate in musical groups.
43. Do not participate in athletic teams.
44. Do not sponsor athletic teams.
45. Do not engage in contact sports.
46. Do not engage in water sports.
47. Do not engage in winter sports.
48. Do not engage in motorcycling.
49. Do not engage in horseback riding.
50. Do not engage in mountain climbing.
51. Do not embark on a private boat.
52. Do not embark in a private airplane.
53. Do not handle firearms.
54. Do not handle explosives.
55. Do not swim.
56. Do not play full court basketball.
57. Do not play basketball in leagues.
58. Do not play basketball in tournaments.
59. You may play half-court basketball.
60. Never be alone.
61. Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is “having difficulties”.
62. Be loyal to your companion.
63. Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
64. Pray with your companion every day.
65. Study with your companion every day.
66. Plan your work with your companion every day.
67. Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
68. Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
69. Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
70. Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
71. Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
72. Do not arise before your companion.
73. Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
74. Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
75. Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
76. Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don’t mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
77. Do not flirt.
78. Do not date.
79. Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
80. Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
81. Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
82. Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
83. Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
84. Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
85. Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
86. Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
87. Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
88. Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
89. Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
90. Do not telephone parents (in some areas, the mission president will make an exception to this rule and will allow 2 phone calls per year: one on Christmas and one on Mother’s day. But the actual rule in the handbook does not give any exceptions. In my mission, the mission president affirmed that the rule in the handbook is unambiguous: Don’t telephone your parents, no exceptions).
91. Do not telephone relatives.
92. Do not telephone friends.
93. Do not telephone girlfriends.
94. Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
95. Take problems and questions to your mission president.
96. Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president (There are no checks, balances, or appeals when it comes to the authority of the mission president).
97. Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert (I have to wonder, isn’t it intrinsically disrespectful to their customs and traditions when your purpose for engaging them is to convert them from their customs and traditions and to yours?)
98. Obey all mission rules.
99. Obey the laws of the land.
100. Do not get involved in politics.
101. Do not get involved in commercial activities.
102. Do not give any information about the area.
103. Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
104. Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
105. Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
106. Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
107. Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
108. Be courteous.
109. Provide community service.
110. Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
111. Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
112. Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
113. Your mission president must approve your housing.
114. Keep your housing unit clean.
115. Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
116. Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
117. Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
118. You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
119. Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
120. Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators. (I wonder if this is because prayer and fasting doesn’t cause strangers to convert and consequently proves to be a faith-demoting experience).
121. Maintain your health.
122. Eat a healthy diet.
123. Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
124. Follow the approved exercise program.
125. Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
126. Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
127. Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
128. Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
129. Be immunized.
130. Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
131. Budget your money carefully.
132. Keep a record of what you spend.
133. Do not spend more than your companion.
134. Do not loan money.
135. Do not borrow money.
136. Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
137. Pay your bills before leaving an area.
138. Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
139. Do not waste money on souvenirs.
140. Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
141. Be a frugal photographer.
142. Do not accumulate excess baggage.
143. Obey custom laws and regulations.
144. Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
145. Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
146. Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
147. Do not drive without a license. 148. Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
149. Do not drive members’ cars.
150. Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
151. Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars. (A few investigators have asked me why the missionaries are reluctant to offer them a ride to church. The answer: giving rides is against the rules).
152. Use cars only on approved mission business.
153. Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
154. Be conscious of safety at all times.
155. Drive defensively.
156. Wear your seat belt.
157. Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.
158. If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
159. Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.
160. Know bicycle safety rules.
161. Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
162. Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
163. Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
164. Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
165. Go directly to your new area when transferred.
166. Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
167. Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.
I asked you earlier if you were sure you wanted to go down this path.
Seems you do.
This should be fun.
There fixed it.
These rules are vile, and so unBiblical it boggles the mind that thinking individuals would fall for such blasphemy.
I forgot about that one.
Like I asked you Reaganesque, are you really really sure you want to pursue this path...
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/freerepublic.com
FR, even in the political off season, is still in the top 5000 sites on the web and 999th in the US.
BTW Rush Limbaugh is in the mid 7000s world wide, 1330 in the US.
You are manned and out gunned. I would tell you to quit while you're ahead, but I know expecting logic and reason from you is expecting too much...
And I wouldn't want it any other way, it would kill the fun...
From Colofornian's post: "So, Reaganesque, is the following your representational idea of what "free republic, free liberty" is all about???? Massive, intrusive, micromanagement of Lds missionaries where everything is tightly controlled from the outside-in vs. instead of operating from the inside-out where the Holy Ghost helps them maintain self-discipline and self-control & self-government?"
You left out the part where these missionaries are encouraged to save up their money so they can AFFORD to pay for their own missions (with their family's help, also)......Christian churches (the ones to actually PAY a pastor) don't expect their missionaries to pay their own way.
: The Mormons broke the immigration laws
__________________________________________
So, what’s new ????
I am a Catholic, so I don't consider Mormons to be Christians. However, this comparison to Jim Jones, who apparently WAS still technically a Christian, is ridiculously over the top.
Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
Provide community service.
Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
These "Missions" are nothing more than sales efforts....
The church missions I have been on built something, a house, a school, a church, with some preaching in the evenings before rest.
Odd that for a "works" based group, the LDS makes little time for works...
They can’t get away for a funeral if their parent dies.
_____________________________________________________
That’s disgusting...
God wants a relationship with us, we should want relationships with others because of the Love of God.
And since when does telling people about the Love of God stop for weekends and holidays.
Ah yes, Rush Limbaugh, the noted left-wing nutcase. He isn’t particularly welcome here either is he, tovarich?
Gievn that the Catholic Church is growing again, someone is doing something right.
I think prosyletizing has its merits, but I think many are drawn to Christ through the outward signs from his people...
Rush is very popular here. I love him.
Doesn't make him perfect.
Facts are an anathema to you aren't they...
I would implore you to cease and desist before you utterly embarass yourself, but it's too late for that.
Plus it would ruin my fun...
I think we had one “sit down” service the entire time.
Beacons for God shine brighter from the arms and legs of his people, not merely their words..
If you reach much more you're gonna pull a muscle..
Amen
Huh?
I wonder if Jesus would go somewhere and break the laws of that country.
Not a very good testimony of Mormonism, now is it?
If this were the first time it happened because of some mistake, that would be a different issue. Seems to me that I’ve read of Mormon’s being embroiled in other immigration issues besides this one.
That my friend should be the default response to our buddy there..
How about any faiths that break the laws of the country they're in.
Get over the persecuted Mormon attitude.
It's not a matter of disliking someone, it's a matter of illegal activity on their part.
So should we just gloss that over and ignore it because they're Mormons and we don't want to look like we're picking on the poor babies?
I didn’t say Free Republic had lost its edge. My point is about you and the people who post these anti-Mormon threads. You are so utterly fixated on destroying the church that you will believe and defend ANYONE who has anything bad to say about the church no matter how suspect the source, up to and including, now, a racist, Communist government. So clearly, your Conservatism comes in second place behind your desire to “expose” the Mormon church. Your the one who decided to go down this path. Not I.
I have been told by a number of anti-Romney types that Rush Limbaugh is a fraud as are Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter and Mark Levin, all of whom said Mitt Romney was sufficiently conservative.
What communist propaganda? Spread by whom?
Did they break the laws of the country they're in or not?
Since when did telling the truth become *communist propaganda*?
The country doesn't even have to let them in in the first place, and you're kicking them in the teeth by insulting them and accusing them of lying about what the Mormons did?
They don't need an excuse to kick them out, it's their country and they have the right to say who can stay and who has to go.
BTW, one of the principles of Conservatism is the rule of law.
One of the points in the “mission rules” shared with us today was to obey immigration laws. There was no specification or stipulation on that only applying to governments you like.
So are you willing to tell me a “conservative” such as yourself is in favor of breaking the law, and even the very rules of your coveted “religion”...
Interesting approach.
Please continue...
And please keep crying to the boss. I know you are trying to kill these threads since they, once again, expose the hypocrisy and general malfeasance of the LDS.
Doesn't seem to be working.
I am going to take you at your word, but I have never heard anyone make that claim personally.
The ruling party in Guyana is Marxist-Lenninist. They are a predominantly black party who have decided that the white Americans have to go. Perhaps if you weren’t so eager to condemn the LDS church, you could have found that out on your own. But hey, we “all know” that Communist countries and parties never make stuff up about people they don’t like, right?
So, in your little world, no Communist country has ever fabricated charges against Americans living in their country for the purposes of political propaganda, huh? No Communists or dictatorships have ever played with their immigration laws to detain or expel foreigners they didn’t want there?
You also believe you will one day be a god, that Indians are (or were) Israelites and Romney is a Conservative.
Not exactly battin' 1000 there...
What's your point?
By extension of your argument and the fact the the LDS has broken United States immigration laws, I take it you are calling for the overthrow of the US.
(Why not, would not be a first for the LDS.) Your own rules say you follow the immigration laws on the nation you are in, right or wrong by our standards.
You are their guest. You are not there to over throw the government but to serve Christ.
I assume by your argument these rules have the same flexibility everything else has in the LDS.
Want to keep dancing?
Again, you take the Communists at their word. And again I ask you, has a Communist nation ever fabricated a story about people they didn’t like?
Just like 19th & early 20th century Mormons thought they were exempt from family-values upholding monogamous laws.
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