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Pope Benedict XVI calls for new economic system based on love in G8 message [new, stronger U.N.]
Times Online ^ | July 7, 2009 | Ruth Gledhill

Posted on 07/07/2009 7:11:06 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

The Pope has called for the world economy to be restructured in line with the principles of "love, truth and charity" in a new encyclical issued today.

He urges the reformation of the United Nations and economic institutions to address the global economic crisis, which he links to relativism, globalisation and the abuse of modern technologies.

The encyclical, Caritas in Veritate, interpreted variously throughout the document as charity or love in truth, is Pope Benedict XVI's third but his first on social issues. It is timed to coincide with the G8 in Italy and is intended to bring objective moral truths to the table of economic debate.

Central to his recommendations is reform of the United Nations, but he also warns against a "cultural levelling" and "cultural eclecticism" where no distinction is made between different lifestyles, leading to "enslavement and manipulation".

He recommends a more incisive role for consumers and calls for a new authority to supplant the UN, "to arrive at a political, juridical and economic order which can increase and give direction to international co-operation for the development of all peoples in solidarity".

He adds: "To manage the global economy; to revive economies hit by the crisis; to avoid any deterioration of the present crisis and the greater imbalances that would result; to bring about integral and timely disarmament, food security and peace; to guarantee the protection of the environment and to regulate migration: for all this, there is urgent need of a true world political authority.

"Such an authority would need to be regulated by law, to observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity, to seek to establish the common good, and to make a commitment to securing authentic integral human development inspired by the values of charity in truth.

"Obviously it would have to have

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: aliens; catholicbashing; disarmament; unreform
Central to his recommendations is reform of the United Nations....[He] calls for a new authority to supplant the UN, "to arrive at a political, juridical and economic order which can increase and give direction to international co-operation for the development of all peoples in solidarity"....

....He adds: "To manage the global economy; to revive economies hit by the crisis; to avoid any deterioration of the present crisis and the greater imbalances that would result; to bring about integral and timely disarmament, food security and peace; to guarantee the protection of the environment and to regulate migration: for all this, there is urgent need of a true world political authority.

"Such an authority would need to be regulated by law, to observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity, to seek to establish the common good, and to make a commitment to securing authentic integral human development inspired by the values of charity in truth.

"Obviously it would have to have the authority to ensure compliance with its decisions from all parties, and also with the co-ordinated measures adopted in various international forums. Without this, despite the great progress accomplished in various sectors, international law would risk being conditioned by the balance of power among the strongest nations."

He urges the construction of a social order that conforms to the moral order, "to the interconnection between moral and social spheres, and to the link between politics and the economic and civil spheres, as envisaged by the Charter of the United Nations".

1 posted on 07/07/2009 7:11:06 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

Ack. World government.


2 posted on 07/07/2009 7:15:33 AM PDT by Woebama (Paying for my neighbor's mortgage and Wall Street's bonuses sure is hard.)
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To: Alex Murphy

One World Government.


3 posted on 07/07/2009 7:21:08 AM PDT by unkus
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To: Woebama
Ack. World government.

All the "new world order" pretribbers' heads are exploding right now.

4 posted on 07/07/2009 7:21:15 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Luther's phrase "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love" - BXVI)
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To: Alex Murphy

*eye roll*


5 posted on 07/07/2009 7:23:41 AM PDT by Constitution Day (Eschew exclamatory abuse.)
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To: Alex Murphy

I think I’ll wait and read the actual encyclical rather than the Murdoch spin on it.

I do notice, however, that the avalanche of bolding HTML codes did nothing to emphasize the words “...to observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity...”


6 posted on 07/07/2009 7:28:21 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Alex Murphy

Doesn’t the harlot church in Rev. have seven hills? Does Rome sit on seven hills.

This sounds like socialism run by faith in the one world church.

Ler’s rebuild the temple and get this party started.


7 posted on 07/07/2009 7:39:35 AM PDT by stockpirate (The movement to take back America has already started, Sarah is her name.)
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To: stockpirate
You know way too much.

I'll be talking to my Opus Dei cell this afternoon and Silas may pay you a visit.

8 posted on 07/07/2009 7:42:34 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Petronski
I think I’ll wait and read the actual encyclical rather than the Murdoch spin on it.

Here's the relevant section, in the official translation found on the Vatican website. All of the encyclical quotes reproduced in post #1 are taken verbatim from the official translation. There is no "Murdoch spin", only Pope Benedict XVI's own words calling for a "family of nations" to "acquire real teeth":

67. In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence, there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations Organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth. One also senses the urgent need to find innovative ways of implementing the principle of the responsibility to protect[146] and of giving poorer nations an effective voice in shared decision-making. This seems necessary in order to arrive at a political, juridical and economic order which can increase and give direction to international cooperation for the development of all peoples in solidarity. To manage the global economy; to revive economies hit by the crisis; to avoid any deterioration of the present crisis and the greater imbalances that would result; to bring about integral and timely disarmament, food security and peace; to guarantee the protection of the environment and to regulate migration: for all this, there is urgent need of a true world political authority, as my predecessor Blessed John XXIII indicated some years ago. Such an authority would need to be regulated by law, to observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity, to seek to establish the common good[147], and to make a commitment to securing authentic integral human development inspired by the values of charity in truth. Furthermore, such an authority would need to be universally recognized and to be vested with the effective power to ensure security for all, regard for justice, and respect for rights[148]. Obviously it would have to have the authority to ensure compliance with its decisions from all parties, and also with the coordinated measures adopted in various international forums. Without this, despite the great progress accomplished in various sectors, international law would risk being conditioned by the balance of power among the strongest nations. The integral development of peoples and international cooperation require the establishment of a greater degree of international ordering, marked by subsidiarity, for the management of globalization[149]. They also require the construction of a social order that at last conforms to the moral order, to the interconnection between moral and social spheres, and to the link between politics and the economic and civil spheres, as envisaged by the Charter of the United Nations.


9 posted on 07/07/2009 7:48:57 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Luther's phrase "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love" - BXVI)
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To: Alex Murphy

Doesn’t the harlot church in Rev. have seven hills? Does Rome sit on seven hills.

This sounds like socialism run by faith in the one world church.

Ler’s rebuild the temple and get this party started.


10 posted on 07/07/2009 7:49:39 AM PDT by stockpirate (The movement to take back America has already started, Sarah is her name.)
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To: stockpirate

Why are you bashing the Catholic Church?

Why do you believe what you do? Because someone told you?

Dig a little deeper, please, and find the truth.


11 posted on 07/07/2009 7:57:33 AM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: Alex Murphy
There is no "Murdoch spin"...

Sure there is. You posted it at the top of this thread.

...only Pope Benedict XVI's own words calling for a "family of nations" to "acquire real teeth"...

Only that, eh? And nothing else?

12 posted on 07/07/2009 8:00:12 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: stockpirate

The Vatican is on the opposite shore of the Tiber from the ancient part of Rome that sits on seven hills.


13 posted on 07/07/2009 8:01:25 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Alex Murphy; Woebama; unkus
The text of Benedict XVI itself disproves your speculation that he's calling for a one-world government:

Such an authority would need to be regulated by law, to observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity, to seek to establish the common good, and to make a commitment to securing authentic integral human development inspired by the values of charity in truth.

Subsidiarity- "One of the key principles of Catholic social thought is known as the principle of subsidiarity. This tenet holds that nothing should be done by a larger and more complex organization which can be done as well by a smaller and simpler organization. In other words, any activity which can be performed by a more decentralized entity should be. This principle is a bulwark of limited government and personal freedom. It conflicts with the passion for centralization and bureaucracy characteristic of the Welfare State." Taken from The Principle of Subsidiarity.

14 posted on 07/07/2009 8:04:48 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

Governments and bureacracies grow. The principle of subsidiarity is much like our principle of Federalism. Around for the first 100 years or so and then out the window in the interests of power and expediency. When someone figures out how to limit government across a long period of time — they’ll be the most important thinker in world history, excepting only Christ.


15 posted on 07/07/2009 8:10:58 AM PDT by Woebama (Paying for my neighbor's mortgage and Wall Street's bonuses sure is hard.)
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To: Pyro7480; Alex Murphy; Woebama; unkus

Keep in mind that the basic, and only natural, organization in Catholic thought on subsidiarity is the family. Thus no government organization at any level should perform those functions that are proper to the family. All higher organizations only exist to support the lower, not the other way around as in socialist, communist, fascist, or statist thought.


16 posted on 07/07/2009 8:13:46 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Alex Murphy
Such an authority would need to be regulated by law,to observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity, to seek to establish the common good, and to make a commitment to securing authentic integral human development inspired by the values of charity in truth.

Subsidiarity is the socialism killer and the "one world government" killer but will anybody notice? This passage points to the correct interpretation of the Pope's words and points to his real meaning in the encyclical.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

#1885: The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.

#1894 In accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, neither the state nor any larger society should substitute itself for the initiative and responsibility of individuals .

# 1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which "a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good."

Beautifully clear, isn't it?

Carry on with the party.

17 posted on 07/07/2009 8:16:27 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow

Great post!


18 posted on 07/07/2009 8:17:54 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Petrosius

Thank you for the clarification. I like the idea of a government whose main purpose is to support the family.


19 posted on 07/07/2009 8:19:13 AM PDT by Woebama (Paying for my neighbor's mortgage and Wall Street's bonuses sure is hard.)
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To: stockpirate
Doesn’t the harlot church in Rev. have seven hills? Does Rome sit on seven hills. Idiot.
20 posted on 07/07/2009 8:21:59 AM PDT by Shane ONeill
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To: stockpirate
You don't know your geography. Rome, on one side of the Tiber, sits on seven hills. The Vatican, on the other side of the Tiber, sits on one hill, Vatican Hill.

So, if you're talking about seven hills, you're not talking about the Catholic Church. If you include the Catholic Church, you're talking about eight hills.

In either case, your argument fails.

21 posted on 07/07/2009 8:22:50 AM PDT by choirboy
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To: Pyro7480
The next two sentences after 'subsidiarity:

"Furthermore, such an authority would need to be universally recognized and to be vested with the effective power to ensure security for all, regard for justice, and respect for rights[148]. Obviously it would have to have the authority to ensure compliance with its decisions from all parties, and also with the coordinated measures adopted in various international forums."

In effect, a one world government. Forgive me if I don't enlist...

22 posted on 07/07/2009 8:24:00 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
Yes, but he repeats the point about subsidiarity after that:

Without this, despite the great progress accomplished in various sectors, international law would risk being conditioned by the balance of power among the strongest nations. The integral development of peoples and international cooperation require the establishment of a greater degree of international ordering, marked by subsidiarity, for the management of globalization[149]. They also require the construction of a social order that at last conforms to the moral order, to the interconnection between moral and social spheres, and to the link between politics and the economic and civil spheres...

23 posted on 07/07/2009 8:28:24 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Woebama

....all you need is love

(all together now)

dum-dah-dah-de-dah

....all you need is love

dum-dah-dah-de=dah

(compare the Pope who came of age in Communist Poland vs. the one who did the same in current day Socialist Germany)


24 posted on 07/07/2009 8:33:00 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: Buckeye McFrog
You didn't even read the encyclical, did you? Read paragraph 3 by itself, and it becomes very clear that he's no John Lennon:

Through this close link with truth, charity can be recognized as an authentic expression of humanity and as an element of fundamental importance in human relations, including those of a public nature. Only in truth does charity shine forth, only in truth can charity be authentically lived. Truth is the light that gives meaning and value to charity. That light is both the light of reason and the light of faith, through which the intellect attains to the natural and supernatural truth of charity: it grasps its meaning as gift, acceptance, and communion. Without truth, charity degenerates into sentimentality. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled in an arbitrary way. In a culture without truth, this is the fatal risk facing love. It falls prey to contingent subjective emotions and opinions, the word “love” is abused and distorted, to the point where it comes to mean the opposite. Truth frees charity from the constraints of an emotionalism that deprives it of relational and social content, and of a fideism that deprives it of human and universal breathing-space. In the truth, charity reflects the personal yet public dimension of faith in the God of the Bible, who is both Agápe and Lógos: Charity and Truth, Love and Word.

25 posted on 07/07/2009 8:35:48 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480
The text of Benedict XVI itself disproves your speculation that he's calling for a one-world government...."[the principle of subsidiary] holds that nothing should be done by a larger and more complex organization which can be done as well by a smaller and simpler organization. In other words, any activity which can be performed by a more decentralized entity should be. This principle is a bulwark of limited government and personal freedom. It conflicts with the passion for centralization and bureaucracy characteristic of the Welfare State."

Thanks for that info, Pyro. A couple of comments on the encyclical excerpt:

First, it's worth pointing out that this encyclical is self-consciously intending to "pay tribute and to honour the memory of the great Pope Paul VI, revisiting his teachings on integral human development", specifically naming the Encyclical Populorum Progressio as the foundation BXVI intends to build on with this work. In the section on the U.N. the "subsidiary" quote comes from BXVI himself, but the majority (but not all) of the "one-world-government" sounding quotes are taken Pope John XXIII's encyclical Pacem in Terris. Benedict himself says that this "family of nations" would

...need to be regulated by law, to observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity, to seek to establish the common good, and to make a commitment to securing authentic integral human development inspired by the values of charity in truth.
A U.N. "regulated by law" would mean either a U.N. self-regulated by charter, or regulated by an outside entity, perhaps by it's member nations. The latter seems to be what BXVI has in mind, when he goes on to say (emphasis mine)
....it would have to have the authority to ensure compliance with its decisions from all parties, and also with the coordinated measures adopted in various international forums. Without this, despite the great progress accomplished in various sectors, international law would risk being conditioned by the balance of power among the strongest nations.
The U.N. would be subservient to it's member nations, but none of those nations will have a greater say than any others, enforcing a sort of economic and moral equivalence among them:
....of giving poorer nations an effective voice in shared decision-making.
None of that changes how the recommendation starts, namely with BXVI's call for a "United Nations with teeth" that has the authority to redistribute wealth, to manage the global economy, to disarm nations, and to protect the environment....and the power to back it up [emphasis mine]:
....such an authority would need to be universally recognized and to be vested with the effective power to ensure security for all, regard for justice, and respect for rights. Obviously it would have to have the authority to ensure compliance with its decisions from all parties, and also with the coordinated measures adopted in various international forums.

26 posted on 07/07/2009 8:37:09 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Luther's phrase "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love" - BXVI)
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To: Pyro7480

If you have a government that can impose its will on all below it...it is a government. Look at how well we, with the Constitution, have subsidiary’ today.


27 posted on 07/07/2009 8:41:00 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
In effect, a one world government. Forgive me if I don't enlist...

You could construe it that way but if it respects the principles of subsidiarity, it can't be.

Furthermore, the Pope states that it would need to be "universally recognized". That's not a "top down" one world government. It's a "bottom up" structure which depends for its mandate on a common consensus in agreement with the rule of law. The clear implication is that without the "universal recognition" the body has no authority.

Thus, he's not calling for the imposition of a socialist dictatorship. He's calling first and foremost for a solidarity among peoples which leads in turn to the recognition of universal human rights based on natural law.

Here's the good news, however. You won't have to enlist. This will never happen.

Nobody listens to the Pope. Not even Catholics.

28 posted on 07/07/2009 8:45:42 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Alex Murphy
...namely with BXVI's call for a "United Nations with teeth"...

Quotation marks. Hmmm.

Where did Benedict use those words "United Nations with teeth" in the encyclical or anywhere else?

29 posted on 07/07/2009 8:47:18 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Alex Murphy
All of you need to read some of this. Pope Benedict is not saying what this leftist interpretation says.

Excerpts from Pope Benedict XVI New Encyclical "CARITAS IN VERITATE" (CHARITY AND TRUTH)

30 posted on 07/07/2009 8:49:55 AM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: Woebama

Things are lining up for Revelations... The anti-Christ’s Pope soon to follow this Pope.

Man, as a Catholic it is going to be hard to cut ties when and if the church comes under the leadership of evil. There will be clear signs: Everything that is a sin and that is a lie will become that Pope’s goodness and revisions to the faith. It will look like the church has wedded the evil Liberation Theology mob of “Christians.” Real Christians will be hated and debased in an unholy union.


31 posted on 07/07/2009 8:52:49 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: Alex Murphy; Woebama; unkus; stockpirate; Mr Rogers
has the authority to redistribute wealth

I don't think Benedict is a socialist though, since he says the following in the encyclical as well (as well as the Church's consistent condemnation of socialism):

41. In the context of this discussion, it is helpful to observe that business enterprise involves a wide range of values, becoming wider all the time. The continuing hegemony of the binary model of market-plus-State has accustomed us to think only in terms of the private business leader of a capitalistic bent on the one hand, and the State director on the other....

42. ...The processes of globalization, suitably understood and directed, open up the unprecedented possibility of large-scale redistribution of wealth on a world-wide scale; if badly directed, however, they can lead to an increase in poverty and inequality, and could even trigger a global crisis. It is necessary to correct the malfunctions, some of them serious, that cause new divisions between peoples and within peoples, and also to ensure that the redistribution of wealth does not come about through the redistribution or increase of poverty: a real danger if the present situation were to be badly managed.

57. ...A particular manifestation of charity and a guiding criterion for fraternal cooperation between believers and non-believers is undoubtedly the principle of subsidiarity, an expression of inalienable human freedom. Subsidiarity is first and foremost a form of assistance to the human person via the autonomy of intermediate bodies. Such assistance is offered when individuals or groups are unable to accomplish something on their own, and it is always designed to achieve their emancipation, because it fosters freedom and participation through assumption of responsibility. Subsidiarity respects personal dignity by recognizing in the person a subject who is always capable of giving something to others. By considering reciprocity as the heart of what it is to be a human being, subsidiarity is the most effective antidote against any form of all-encompassing welfare state. It is able to take account both of the manifold articulation of plans — and therefore of the plurality of subjects — as well as the coordination of those plans. Hence the principle of subsidiarity is particularly well-suited to managing globalization and directing it towards authentic human development. In order not to produce a dangerous universal power of a tyrannical nature, the governance of globalization must be marked by subsidiarity, articulated into several layers and involving different levels that can work together. Globalization certainly requires authority, insofar as it poses the problem of a global common good that needs to be pursued. This authority, however, must be organized in a subsidiary and stratified way, if it is not to infringe upon freedom and if it is to yield effective results in practice.

32 posted on 07/07/2009 8:53:24 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: SaraJohnson

Well, one must remember that the “gates of hell shall not prevail” against the Church.


33 posted on 07/07/2009 8:54:17 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

That is true and thank God! But the church is constantly under attack by evil and we have to hold our own for Christ even if evil reaches the Pope for a time.


34 posted on 07/07/2009 9:20:00 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: Pyro7480
Do we see here elements of the Protestant approach to Scripture in the way this encyclical is being taken? Clearly the encyclical has to be read in toto and has to be consistent both with its various parts and with longstanding Catholic social teaching and doctrine as explained in the Catechism and other Papal documents.

Using this as a starting point, it's possible to understand the Pope's meaning and the overarching thrust of the encyclical. It is, in fact, a comprehensive analysis of most of our current social and economic ills and a real tour de force as far as constructive solutions based on Christian thinking are concerned.

It's precisely this "take it out of context" approach that leads to all sorts of misunderstandings with Scripture and old habits obviously die hard.

35 posted on 07/07/2009 9:21:13 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow
It's precisely this "take it out of context" approach that leads to all sorts of misunderstandings with Scripture and old habits obviously die hard.

Ah yes, Scriptural Deal-a-Meal.

36 posted on 07/07/2009 9:23:13 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: marshmallow

Then the Pope is an idiot to call for both an organization that can govern - impose its will - on nations, and subsidiarity at the same time.

They are antithetical.


37 posted on 07/07/2009 9:26:31 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: marshmallow

“Furthermore, the Pope states that it would need to be “universally recognized”. That’s not a “top down” one world government. It’s a “bottom up” structure which depends for its mandate on a common consensus in agreement with the rule of law. The clear implication is that without the “universal recognition” the body has no authority.”

Then he should finish his piece with, “BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!”


38 posted on 07/07/2009 9:28:14 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: marshmallow

I’ll be waiting for them. They can take my 12ga and whatever ammo is left with them when they leave, I won’t needing any longer after that.

BTW- I like your tagline. Mine used to read, “A people unwilling to use extreme violent force to preserve their liberty deserves the tyrant that rules them.” SP

From the article seems we have to pick Obama or the Pope.


39 posted on 07/07/2009 9:37:53 AM PDT by stockpirate (The movement to take back America has already started, Sarah is her name.)
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To: Pyro7480

The governments business shoukd be to promote free enterprise and business, NOT love and charity. The government has no rights granted in our constitution to promote love.


40 posted on 07/07/2009 9:49:51 AM PDT by stockpirate (The movement to take back America has already started, Sarah is her name.)
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To: Pyro7480

It still sounds like socialism to me under the guise of a third party acting in my behalf, but against my will.

What if I do not want any of my earnings taken from me and given to someone else without my consent, which I won’t give.

Does this organization have the power to force me to?


41 posted on 07/07/2009 9:59:25 AM PDT by stockpirate (The movement to take back America has already started, Sarah is her name.)
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To: Pyro7480
Yes, but he repeats the point about subsidiarity after that

Yes, but what does that mean??? Looks to me your pope is for globalization as long as the ruling elite are a small group of leaders with ultimate authority as opposed to a conglomeration of ruling nations...Just like your religion...

42 posted on 07/07/2009 10:48:32 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Salvation
Dig a little deeper, please, and find the truth.

Lol. This is rich. Thou keeper of links.

43 posted on 07/07/2009 6:26:35 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Woebama; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; HarleyD
The most fitting reply I could make is below . . . from the NEWS/ACTIVISM thread on this topic. It's better, for spiritual discussions about it to be in Religion, imho.

In any case, this post RE The Pope's calling for a more comprehensive world government leaves no room for rationalizations. This is a critical issue.

One is either FOR the looming world government and its leader satan

!!!!OR!!!!

One is wholeheartedly, emphatically and thoroughly

AGAINST

The looming global government of Biblical END TIMES PROPHECY.

There is NO room for middle ground. The earlier Vatican encyclicals straddling the bob-wire fence are hollow, nonsense.

POLITICAL, BUREAUCRATIC, RELIGIOUS, FANCY WORD-DANCING over and around the issues is SEDUCTIVE, demonized nonsense regardless of who engages in it. And there will be an abundance of such word-dancing from many flavors of RELIGIOUS centers power between now and Armageddon.

Folks who are soooooooooooooo addictively reverentially adoring of structures, leaders, philosophies, personages, rituals, customs, organizations . . . ANY-thing, EVERY-thing LESS THAN GOD ALMIGHTY . . . such that they cannot/WILL NOT receive the truth of these words are on very dangerous ground. They MUST decide at the earliest opportunity to put GOD ALMIGHT--THE LORD JESUS--FIRST, FOREMOST IN THEIR LIFE.

Some will rationalize that they are merely "DEFENDING THE TRUTH" etc. etc. etc. yada, yada, yada. GOD KNOWS THE TRUTH OF THAT. The piercing discerining fire of Holy Spirit will be striking and slicing through the rationalized demonic chaff of many such thoughts anew for some who are reading these words. Some will have a new degree of freedom of choice upon reading these words. THEY MUST NOT shuffle that freedom aside and instead cling tighter to the dry husks of demonized RELIGION.

They MUST break free and CLING INSTEAD MORE TIGHTLY THAN EVER TO JESUS AND JESUS ALONE.

FORSAKE

!!!!ALL!!!!
ELSE
SAVE
CHRIST
ALONE

Some folks will be inclined to rationalize that ALL their rituals, structures, adorations of personages, individuals, offices, organizations, customs etc. IS putting Christ first. The RELIGIOUS leaders 2000 years ago pontificated similarly. Christ would have none of it then. His Spirit will have none of it now. His Spirit knows THE TRUTH about all hearts regardless of the mental rationalizations to the contrary.

This is true of folks in EVERY denominational, organizational, "Christian" group.

We are at the door of the slippery slope rushing headlong at an ever faster clip to Armageddon. Any other view is blind, deaf, dumb, clueless. Sorry. It has nothing to do with my personal perspective. The Scripture and obvious global evidence no longer leave any room for any other perspective to be called truth on that issue.

I don't recall ever writing such a fierce post. It shocks and sobers me to watch the words come out of my fingers. I have a slight human tendency to want to say "But Lord . . . " Yet HE WILL HAVE NONE OF IT. The PRESS of . . . an incredibly strong hand at my back is unmistakable. The words from these flawed humble fingers will be truth and life from The Lord when Holy Spirit confirms them as such and the individual receives them as such.

I certainly encourage folks to weigh these words and TAKE THEM TO THE LORD FOR HIS CONFIRMATION OR NOT.

However, IF AND WHEN THE LORD confirms them to an individual's heart and mind--THEN, they have no choice but to follow through AS THE LORD WOULD HAVE FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL ACCORDINGLY.

I encourage folks to

submit wholesale, anew

TO
GOD ALONE
CHRIST ALONE
HOLY SPIRIT ALONE!
FORSAKE
ALL
ELSE;
!!!!ALL!!!!
ELSE!

I don't know how to describe what I feel and what is pouring through my spirit as I write this post. I don't ever recall feeling quite the same way ever before.

I'm taken quite by surprise by it as I do it. I did not expect this as I began this post.

I just know emphatically that these issues are ETERNAL issues. ETERNAL destinies will be decided based on these issues.

Organizations, structures, rituals, personages, adorations of anything else, rationalizations, idolatries, smug 'in-group' confidences; human habits; customs; unforgiveness, pride, judgmental, self-righteousness, righteousness in anything else but the Blood of Jesus; forms of Godliness while denying the Power thereof; "social custom-affinity-'Christianity;'" works of the flesh; confidence in the flesh; . . . have only death as fruit.

PRETENDING and rationalizing otherwise will not enliven the corpse.

Clinging to dry husk demonized RELIGION will not enliven the corpse.

Taking offense at the fierceness of this post will not bring life.

LIFE
IS
IN
CHRIST,
HIS BLOOD,
ALONE!

NOTHING else is sufficient.
NOTHING else is remotely sufficient!
NOTHING else has a whiff of sufficiency.
NOTHING else has a sub-atomic particle's worth of sufficiency.

Via Steve Foss: Psalm 132:7-9:

Let us go into His tabernacle. Let us worship at His footstool. Arise, Oh Lord, to Your resting place. You and the Ark of your strength. Let our Priests be clothed with Righteousness. And let your saints shout for joy.

.

Virtually every "Christian" organization and congregation has evolved customs that have become construed as and labeled as, believed to be, to equal, to result in "RIGHTEOUSNESS" when they are, in fact, a human, if not, demonized stench.

GOD SEEKS TO MEET with each individual . . . all the time, throughout all our days and moments. All the more so at places called His houses of worship.

Yet, most congregations focus on everything but RELATIONSHIP immediacy, intimacy, dialogue, the PRESENCE of The Lord IN DIALGOUE with each individual and with each group. Tickling itching ear "Christianity" does NOT cut it.

[See Mat 12:3; Mat 24:1-2--a prophetic warning of The Lord]

RELIGION has taken the place of RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.

RELIGION has taken the place of living out God's priorities with one another . . . the 2nd Commandment and the Golden Rule.

Folks follow through on rituals and congratulate themselves foolishly that they are 'spiritually' safe and quite OK--top flight even--when they've not really even entered the Doorway of RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD nor even healthy, authentic relationship with one another.

God will not be marked. His priorities are clear in Scripture. NO rationalizations, nor rituals otherwise will absolve anyone of any degree of ignoring God's priorities. And every congregation has it's seductive rituals in all denominational organizations. Some rituals in and of themselves are fairly benign--until folks IMPUTE to them, Salvific redemptiveness. White-washed tomb RELIGION will never cut it--no matter how quaint, cute, rosy, warm and fuzzy the rituals involved.

Satan is not playing a shallow, inconsequential game regarding globalism.

NEITHER IS GOD.

#################################################

GOD ALONE IS GOD.
GOD ALONE IS SUFFICIENT.
GOD ALONE IS WORTHY.

#################################################
#################################################

BTW, The following link to a Sid Roth interview with Grace William and the MIRACULOUS music GOD HAS BEEN RELEASING THROUGH HER as well as her miraculous healing . . . her atheist mother's conversion etc. It includes the touching and impactful "DON'T EVER LET ME GO." It's well worth a listen.

Grace William's own website is:

http://www.gracegrace.org

The Sid Roth interview is at:

http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?abbr=tv_&page=NewsArticle&id=7505 [It should be interesting to see whether some Calvinist naysayers will cluck more derisively than the RC naysayers, or not.]

44 posted on 07/08/2009 8:59:30 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Pyro7480

That Scripture refers to

THE BODY OF CHRIST.

THE BODY OF CHRIST

is wholesale

NOT [remotely] EQUAL

to the Vatican political bureaucratic structure/oranization/church


45 posted on 07/08/2009 9:02:21 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: marshmallow; Dr. Eckleburg; DarthVader
Essentially, it seems that you are saying . . .

that the abundance of other words . . .

and the enormously complex context of said abundance of other words

wholesale change the meaning of very serious words and phrases

= = = =

I don't buy it.

Word dancing
doesn't cut it.

Rationalized diplospeak
doesn't cut it.

Straddling the fence
doesn't cut it.

SCRIPTURE IS EXCEEDINGLY CLEAR about the END TIMES ERA GLOBAL GOVERNMENT.

It won't be a little evil.
It won't be evil in little pockets here and there.
It won't be kosher for self-exempting RELIGIOUS groups to opt out of the evil at will

It won't be evil on one side of the street and not on the other.
It won't be evil on one side of the mouth and not on the other.
It won't be evil on one side of the fence and not on the other.

It won't be evil on one side of the page and not on the other.
It won't be evil on one side of the smiling diploface and not on the other.

It won't be evil if you avoid carrying a rosary but not if you do.
It won't be evil outside the cathedral doors but not in.

Scripture is clear--it WILL BE EVIL THROUGH AND THROUGH and the world over . . . and more evil than has ever been before or ever will be after.

Disagree with Scripture at your own risk.

46 posted on 07/08/2009 9:12:33 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Woebama

From the Encyclical. Pay close attention and see if you can find the sentence that firmly speaks against a one world government. Oh heck not just a sentence but a whole theme.

” particular manifestation of charity and a guiding criterion for fraternal cooperation between believers and non-believers is undoubtedly the principle of subsidiarity[137], an expression of inalienable human freedom. Subsidiarity is first and foremost a form of assistance to the human person via the autonomy of intermediate bodies. Such assistance is offered when individuals or groups are unable to accomplish something on their own, and it is always designed to achieve their emancipation, because it fosters freedom and participation through assumption of responsibility. Subsidiarity respects personal dignity by recognizing in the person a subject who is always capable of giving something to others. By considering reciprocity as the heart of what it is to be a human being, subsidiarity is the most effective antidote against any form of all-encompassing welfare state. It is able to take account both of the manifold articulation of plans — and therefore of the plurality of subjects — as well as the coordination of those plans. Hence the principle of subsidiarity is particularly well-suited to managing globalization and directing it towards authentic human development. In order not to produce a dangerous universal power of a tyrannical nature, the governance of globalization must be marked by subsidiarity, articulated into several layers and involving different levels that can work together. Globalization certainly requires authority, insofar as it poses the problem of a global common good that needs to be pursued. This authority, however, must be organized in a subsidiary and stratified way[138], if it is not to infringe upon freedom and if it is to yield effective results in practice.”


47 posted on 07/08/2009 9:20:08 AM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: lastchance; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; Blogger

Which . . .

being interpreted means . . .

These words here absolve me of all meaning and responsibility for those words

over there

out of the other side of my mouth/fingers.


48 posted on 07/08/2009 9:22:17 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Pyro7480

One problem is that when certain people read the phrase “redistrubtion of wealth” they think it means coming in and taking without due process the fruits of their labors and giving it to another without any accountability being laid upon the recepient. That is Socialism. But that is not Church social teaching which sees wealth not as money alone but as natural resources, means of production, labor, capital, production of goods, profit and investment.

Of these first claim to them is had by the individual who produces them for his betterment and that of his family. What the Church requires is that these things not be used in an exploitive manner that actually hinders a person’s dignity or rights. And that in Christian charity we share the benefits of these with the less fortunate. Not to keep them in a stagnant condition but to actually lift them out of poverty so that they too can contribute to a greater good.

An example of this redistribution of wealth can be seen in the urging that large pharmaceutical companies allow distribution of generic versions of their Aids medicine in developing nations which do not have the means to afford the patented versions. Another example is the simple principle that a business give consideration to a fair and livable wage to its workers as a primary goal and good of business and not just to maximize profits at the expense of those who help produce that profit. (These two things must of course be balanced since without profit a business would go under. So workers who demand wages which make it unrealistic for a business to continue are working against themselves)

Redistribution of wealth also means in Church social teaching a fair system of taxation and distribution of the revenue generated by these taxes. The goal being the protection of human dignity and the elevation of the common good. We know for certain that a perpetual welfare state accomplishes neither of these. We also know that the more layers of beauracracy placed between the aid and the individual the more likey it is that government power will grow while individual autonomy weakens. When this happens the whole philosophy of a political system existing to protect God given rights is lost. Rather we see a philosophy develop which claims the person is to be in service of the State to advance its goals and protect its status. The voices of the poor and oppressed are silenced by this and the ideals of justice and true peace are mocked.

That is what the Church teaches against. The idea that the person should not be the primary focus of any economic system. That is not Socialism but the acknowledgment that we are made in the image of God and any system which exploits or injures the person is an affront to the love the Creator has for us. And for the very Incarnation.


49 posted on 07/08/2009 9:49:56 AM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Pyro7480; Mr Rogers
Yes, but he repeats the point about subsidiarity after that:

Which of the two will win out. Decision making at the lowest level, or a global bureaucracy with the power to enforce it's mandates? Your Pope wants both and neither is compatible with the other.

Why not support free markets?

50 posted on 07/08/2009 10:19:33 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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