He then leaps up on the window ledge to try to cry the Masonic signal for help ("Oh lord my God, is there no help for the widow's son?") --
Posted on 06/28/2009 12:09:35 PM PDT by Colofornian
On the evening of June 27, 1844, an armed lynch mob descended upon the Carthage, Ill., jail. The mob, their faces disguised with a mixture of mud and gunpowder, was bent on killing Joseph Smith, the powerful Mormon prophet and founding father of the Church of Latter Day Saints.
The Illinois governor had placed Smith under arrest for, among other crimes, ordering the destruction of a printing press that produced the first edition of the Nauvoo Expositor, a newspaper critical of Smith and the practices of his religious movement.
The destruction of the press was not the best public relations move for Smith, a presidential candidate.
The people of western Illinois and eastern Missouri didn't like how Smith and his followers were gaining power during the run-up to the 1844 presidential election.
According to some, he had overstepped the bounds of religion and used it to further his political ideas. In the nearby town of Nauvoo, Ill., Smith had established a Mormon stronghold. In Nauvoo, Smith held the titles of president and prophet of his church and also held the positions of mayor, court judge and commander of the militia called the Nauvoo Legion. Smith and his growing group of followers held ultimate power to sway the presidential vote in Illinois.
As the Mormon prophet looked down from the Carthage jail's second floor window, the mob must have appeared as so many wicked heathens coming to send him to meet Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, whom Smith readily adopted for his religious text called The Book of Mormon.
Mormons believe that at age fourteen when Smith was looking to join a church, God and Jesus appeared to him in Palmyra, N.Y., and told him that all religious denominations had fallen away from the true Christian faith. God and Jesus advised Smith to join none of them.
Three years later, according to Mormon tradition, an angel named Moroni appeared to Smith and told him the location of two golden plates inscribed with the history of two ancient Native American Jewish tribes known as the Lamanites and Nephites. Smith found the plates, along with two magical stones that allowed him to translate the plates. According to the plates, a Jewish prophet named Lehi led the lost tribes out of Israel to North America in 600 B.C.
From these golden plates and magical stones Smith created the Book of Mormon, the story of Jesus' crucifixion, resurrection and visitation to the ancient inhabitants of North America.
Smith began recruiting disciples and sending emissaries into the land to spread the word of his newly discovered faith. The Latter Day Saint movement spread north to Canada and west to Missouri and Illinois.
Smith sent his emissary and disciple John Brown to the American South. Brown established his headquarters in northeast Mississippi and canvassed Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia in search of converts.
In Marion County in northwest Alabama, John D. Holladay and his family along with several other families crossed the state line and joined Brown in Mississippi in 1846.
Brown led the converts from Mississippi on a great migration west to join other Mormons to a promised land where they would suffer no persecution, as they had in Missouri during the 1838 Mormon War.
The group from Mississippi became known as the 'Mississippi Saints' and led the vanguard of Mormon President Brigham Young's wagon train. The Mississippi group was the first to see the Great Salt Lake Valley, where Young would famously declare, 'this is the right place,' after viewing the scenery there.
Young established a theocracy in Salt Lake City where the Mormon religion and government shared no separation. Young began preaching an end-of-the-world scenario where God would exact vengeance on gentiles. Mormon leaders preached a doctrine of 'blood atonement' for the previous persecution of Mormons.
Some historians and scholars believe that this blood-for-blood doctrine and the end-times rhetoric resulted in the incident that would become known as the Mountain Meadows massacre.
On Sept. 11, 1857, Mormons assisted by Piute Indians slaughtered about 120 men, women and children of the Fancher-Baker wagon train from Arkansas.
A government investigation later revealed that Mormons disarmed the men, separated them from the women and children and led them all into a field where they were shot dead.
Two years later, the remains of the immigrants lay unburied where they were killed. Government investigator Brevet Major J.H. Carleton surveyed the crime scene, which he called 'one too horrible and sickening for language to describe. Human skeletons, disjointed bones, ghastly skulls and the hair of women were scattered in frightful profusion over a distance of two miles.'
The Mormons almost certainly remembered the death of the prophet Joseph Smith as they slaughtered the immigrants. Smith's final moments on earth played out like a scenario in a modern-day video game.
The lynch mob climbed the stairs, reached the wooden door and began firing bullets through it. Hyrum Smith, Joseph's brother, and Willard Richards tried to hold the door. A lead ball struck Hyrum in the face and a ball, shot from the street below, struck him in the back. 'I am a dead man,' he exclaimed.
The mob pushed their rifles through the partially opened door and the prophet Joseph Smith aimed and began firing a six-shooter pistol, but only three barrels fired. The mob fired back.
Church elder John Taylor struck at the thundering rifles with a walking stick.
'Streams of fire as think as my arm passed by me as these men fired, and it looked like certain death,' he wrote later.
'Every moment the crowd at the door became more dense ... until the whole entrance was crowded with muskets and rifles. With the swearing, shouting and demoniacal expressions of those outside the door and on the stairs, and the firing of the guns, mingled with their horrid oaths and execrations, made it look like pandemonium let loose.'
Taylor sprang for an open window, but was shot in the thigh. He was shot three more times as he attempted to crawl underneath a bed. He was hit below the left knee, the left forearm and another ball struck his left hip 'and tore away flesh as large as my hand, dashing the mangled fragments of flesh and blood against the wall.'
Smith sprang for the window and was also cut down. Two shots from the doorway penetrated his chest and shoulder. He was hit twice more by shots from the street. Smith fell from the window, hit the dirt and was shot several more times. His final words, uttered 165 years ago today, were 'Oh Lord, My God!'
From the article: The mob pushed their rifles through the partially opened door and the prophet Joseph Smith aimed and began firing a six-shooter pistol, but only three barrels fired. The mob fired back.
Yup. "The mob fired back." (Ya better believe that ANY prisoner in ANY jail with a loaded weapon is likely to be fired upon!!!)
From the article: The destruction of the press was not the best public relations move for Smith, a presidential candidate.
(Understatement of the day)
From the article: In Nauvoo, Smith held the titles of president and prophet of his church and also held the positions of mayor, court judge and commander of the militia called the Nauvoo Legion.
#1 While Smith assumed all this public power, his first wife, Emma, actually said it wasn't his public persona that led to his gun-battle death...she said it was the "secret things" that did him in-- meaning polygamy. Smith took dozens of wives on the sly; one guy finally decided to publish something about it in the Nauvoo Expositor; Smith ordered the destruction of that printing press to keep his polygamy secret; and that's when the locals had enough of his criminal shenanigans (he was a criminal bigamist/polygamist; a corrupt bully-mayor, etc).
#2 Ever notice how Lds general authorities (top leaders of the church) are EACH on many different boards of companies, etc? Ever notice how Brigham Young was simultaneous "prophet" of the church & Utah territorial governor? As the article says: Young established a theocracy in Salt Lake City where the Mormon religion and government shared no separation. Young began preaching an end-of-the-world scenario where God would exact vengeance on gentiles. Mormon leaders preached a doctrine of 'blood atonement' for the previous persecution of Mormons. Some historians and scholars believe that this blood-for-blood doctrine and the end-times rhetoric resulted in the incident that would become known as the Mountain Meadows massacre.
From the article: A government investigation later revealed that Mormons disarmed the men, separated them from the women and children and led them all into a field where they were shot dead. Two years later, the remains of the immigrants lay unburied where they were killed. Government investigator Brevet Major J.H. Carleton surveyed the crime scene, which he called 'one too horrible and sickening for language to describe. Human skeletons, disjointed bones, ghastly skulls and the hair of women were scattered in frightful profusion over a distance of two miles.'
What do you want them to do discredit their own foundings? And Muslims should have an honest discussion about Mohammed and child molestation? I don’t think that’s realistic or even constructive, actually.
no, it wasn't his "political ideas" that he wanted to further...it was the thought of taking on 13 yro girls as brides as many as he wanted and never having to face the law nor God about it....because he created the god that allowed that....how cozy....
religions do that....smooth the way to rationalize all sorts of behaviour...
I appreciate the mostly good people that are Mormons....I know the good and the bad and ugly of them....good marriage, family values,patriotism, etc...but the foundation that Mormonism arises from....yikes....there is just no explaining it in a good way....I wish there was...
Not a bad idea -- to revisit that which in history we trust 100% with our lives & eternal lives...For those who might want to do that, #1: Here's a related thread posted yesterday: See Today in History - June 27
In a nutshell, why might someone want to revisit their spiritual heritage as "history?"
As one ex-Mormon put it on another recent thread Why we've left and how we find support: The 2009 Exmormon Conference, "Fittingly, this year's theme is 'No Price Too High.' It's worth losing everything if it means gaining truth. A life lived in a lie is not a life worth living."
So, frankly, in response to your And Muslims should have an honest discussion about Mohammed and child molestation? I don’t think that’s realistic or even constructive, actually -- truth vs. living a lie is always taking realism to heart -- and constructive!
As this ex-Mormon above (Jonathan Montgomery), also commented: We reached a point where we realized that it was more likely that our faith was wrong than that everything about Mormonism (angels, gold plates, lost civilizations, the "inspired" Book of Abraham translation...) was true. Simply put, faith can only go so far. If enough information about the world contradicts our beliefs, the only way for faith to survive is for it to transition into something more akin to denial.
Wellll...a START would be for them to stop knocking on the doors of people of faith by the tens of thousands and telling them that THEIR beliefs are "abominable" and the mormon way is the only way to salvation.
Once these important principles are understood, we can then explain and expand the understanding of our Father’s children by sharing with them how Jesus Himself established and organized His Church in the meridian of time by giving “some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
“For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (Eph. 4:11–12).
From there we can help our friends and neighbors understand the Apostasy, or falling away from the original Church organized by the Lord, which was prophesied by those who helped to establish the Church in the first place. Paul wrote to the Thessalonian Christians who were eagerly anticipating the Second Coming of the Savior that “that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first” (2 Thes. 2:3). He also warned Timothy that “the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but … they shall turn away their ears from the truth” (2 Tim. 4:3–4). And Peter presupposed a falling away when he spoke of “the times of refreshing” that would come before God would again “send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
“Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:19–21).
Do you see how naturally and easily one principle of the Restoration leads to the next? Peter’s prophecy almost begs for a discussion of the restoration of the gospel in these latter days through the Prophet Joseph Smith. This in turn demands a dialogue about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the holy priesthood through the gift and power of God. From there it is so natural to share the principle of continuing revelation and the organization of the Church and its doctrines and programs."
M. Russell Ballard
I love these posts of yours on the history of the Mormons.
And to think that one of my gr.gr.gr.gr.etc. Grampas was there. When Young took over he had already hightailed it to the south, Texas I think, with his first wife and his three new young wives.
Heh.
It was a rather one-sided gun battle: hundreds of fully armed militiamen launched an unprovoked attack again four men armed with two pistols and a couple of sticks. It hardly deserves the grand title of "gun battle."
From the article: The mob pushed their rifles through the partially opened door and the prophet Joseph Smith aimed and began firing a six-shooter pistol, but only three barrels fired. The mob fired back.
Yup. "The mob fired back." (Ya better believe that ANY prisoner in ANY jail with a loaded weapon is likely to be fired upon!!!)
Nope. The mob did not "fire back." The mob was already firing and had, in fact, killed his brother Hyrum. It was Joseph Smith who "fired back."
Your observation about an armed prisoner being fired upon is beside the point. The mob did not murder Joseph and Hyrum Smith because the prisoners had loaded weapons; I doubt any of the murderers even knew that.
No, the mob came to the jail with the intent to lynch the Smiths and their companions, and would have done so had the prisoners been unarmed. And indeed, the mob also shot John Taylor, who had no weapon but his walking stick.
so...he kind of died like Che????
Well, first of all, that's actually coming a long way for a Mormon just to admit a gun-battle happened at all. To read normal Lds accounts, or to be in Nauvoo where the Mormons give accounts of what happened to tourists, you'd never ever hear the words "gun battle." I mean, how white washed is that of history?
Secondly, "hundreds of militiamen" were indeed present outside the jail -- but hundreds didn't storm the jail. [That's a bit overkill of a descriptor on your part]
Nope. The mob did not "fire back." The mob was already firing and had, in fact, killed his brother Hyrum. It was Joseph Smith who "fired back." Your observation about an armed prisoner being fired upon is beside the point. The mob did not murder Joseph and Hyrum Smith because the prisoners had loaded weapons; I doubt any of the murderers even knew that. No, the mob came to the jail with the intent to lynch the Smiths and their companions, and would have done so had the prisoners been unarmed.
Logo, you can't even get your own story straight...first you indicate they came in w/blazing rifles, shooting Hyrum & then the others. Then you say the mob wasn't intent upon shooting anyone (lynching somebody instead). Which is it? (Or were they planning on lynching somebody with a rifle or two?)
Even if they were intent upon lynching them, and saw one of them with his six-shooter in hand, then, of course, they'd open fire.
And as, for Joseph Smith, yes, they fired back at him -- it appears he got a couple of shots off at 2-3 before they shot anything at him. That would indeed make it relevant that Smith was an armed prisoner -- another little "nugget" often missing from Lds history recounts & tourist presentations.
You can see the Mormon agenda often by what they deliberately leave out of the discussion.
Joseph Smith aimed and began firing a six-shooter pistol, but only three barrels fired.
_______________________________________
Well. that was good shooting on Joey Smith’s part. He shot three men and two of them died.
Yeah, compare the would-be news headlines on June 28, 1844:
Mormon Times & Season: Lynchmob Assassinates Prophet of God
Nauvoo Tell-It-Like-It-Is: Armed Prisoner Shot and Killed in Gun Battle
What were the names of the two martyrs that Joseph Smith Jr murdered ???
Are you bothered that some tour guide did not use the term "gun battle" when describing that murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith? If so, I can see your point: battle makes the actions of the mob sound so much grander than lynching.
That is, if several hundred militiamen armed with rifles attack and kill four unarmed men, the militiamen look like cowardly thugs. But if one of the four shoots back with a pistol, you can call it a "battle" and the militiamen suddenly sound heroic.
By the way, your charge that we have whitewashed history is silly. We Mormons have been recounting the events of 27 June 1844 since they happened.
I have here a book published by the LDS Church titled Church History in the Fulness of Times: The History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City: 1989). Not only does the book say that Joseph and Hyrum were armed, one with a pepper-box pistol, the other with a single-shot pistol; it actually shows a photograph of both weapons. (Hyrum's pistol was not fired.)
Secondly, "hundreds of militiamen" were indeed present outside the jail -- but hundreds didn't storm the jail. [That's a bit overkill of a descriptor on your part]
I said nothing about how many stormed the jail. But the militiamen outside the jail—who had been charged with protecting the prisoners—took part in the attack. Even the article you posted clearly indicates that Hyrum and Joseph Smith were struck by rifle balls fired from the hallway of the jail and from outside the jail. My description of the event was accurate.
Logo, you can't even get your own story straight...first you indicate they came in w/blazing rifles, shooting Hyrum & then the others.
Go back and read the article you posted.
Then you say the mob wasn't intent upon shooting anyone (lynching somebody instead). Which is it? (Or were they planning on lynching somebody with a rifle or two?)
I said nothing of the sort. You seemed confused about the meaning of lynch. The dictionary definition of lynch is "to put to death by mob action without legal sanction or due process of law."
Even if they were intent upon lynching them, and saw one of them with his six-shooter in hand, then, of course, they'd open fire.
Of course they would.
Tell me, do you believe the mob acted in self-defense when they killed Joseph Smith?
Hyrum and Joseph Smith were struck by rifle balls fired from the hallway of the jail
______________________________________________
And who opened the door to the hallway ???
Joey Smith...
And he fired his weapon down the hall and killed 2 men...
What's "untold" is what the Lds tour guides seem to always leave out @ the Carthage Jail. He says he's been through the tour several times since the 1980s -- and not once do the guides EVER volunteer that the Smith brothers had smuggled guns brought into them by visitor Cyrus Wheelock (J. Smith had a six-shooter; H. Smith had a derringer).
McKeever talks about how on his first tour of the Carthage Jail, Elder Salt (of all names) gave this dramatic story and three times emphasized that the "only defense" the four Mormons had was to block the door with their bodies and fight off the attackers with their walking sticks. (McKeever says indeed, they blocked the door with their bodies & indeed, John Taylor had a walking stick, but "only defense?")
When McKeever asked about the smuggled guns, the tour guide first tried to deflect the question about how "you can't believe everything you read" -- but when McKeever pointed out that the book was the Lds Documentary History of the Church and that the statement came from later-to-be Lds "prophet" Taylor -- the guide could only look at the floor with great chagrin.
According to Taylor's account -- as recounted by McKeever -- Hyrum Smith took a bullet through the door...Lds historian Richard Bushman (p. 550) of his bio of Smith says Hyrum Smith was shot through his left nose...and BTW a bullet through the brain isn't going to result in the Mormon folk tale response from Hyrum where, upon being shot, he was somehow able to utter, "I am a dead man."
Joseph Smith then reacts by pulling his gun out of his pocket, opens the door and attempts to unload all 6 shots -- 3 misfire, he shoots 3 and kills 2. He then leaps up on the window ledge to try to cry the Masonic signal for help ("Oh lord my God, is there no help for the widow's son?") -- but falls in a hail of bullets -- at least one from the door & at least one from the windows outside...hit 4 times he dies...only being able to get out the initial part of the Masonic distress signal, "Oh lord my God..."
McKeever points out that this is a big difference -- someone screaming a distress signal trusting in a fellow Mason to rescue him -- than the film that romanticizes the death of Smith shown at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building, where they have him utter this phrase as the camera pans upward and into the blue sky -- as if it was a direct greeting to God.
Well, we don't know. In the video clip I posted in the previous post...McKeever actually said every time he's visited the Carthage Jail tour, he's been sure to bring up the smuggled guns:
Another Lds Carthage Jail tour guide (not the Elder Salt he referenced) tried to white wash the smuggled guns by saying, "Oh, they weren't smuggled in. They were brought in." He said one guide tried telling him that Cyrus Wheelock told the jail guard, "I'm here to assassinate the prisoner(s)."
Of course, McKeever didn't believe this report from the Lds Carthage Jail tour guide -- he's never heard that story from anywhere else and couldn't cite any original source this tour guide was possibly relying upon. But what if that tour guide was actually correct in this case? What if Wheelock thought the best way to get guns into the cell was to just bring them in in plain sight -- point it out to the jail guard. What then?
Well, McKeever says the tour guide then told him that the jail guard who let Wheelock in, gun(s) in tow, went off-duty. (Again, McKeever didn't believe this tour guide account). Well, what if as the jail guard was leaving his post, he told the militia men outside that the Smith brothers were now armed? Now that changes the dynamics, doesn't it?
Now any other jail guard hearing of this knows his life is possibly at risk anytime he might pull the prisoners from the room. And now the militiamen actually have a valid reason to storm the jail -- armed prisoners. If that was the case, no wonder the jail guard let armed militiamen in -- and no wonder the armed militiamen didn't hesitate upon firing into the building.
Maybe that Lds tour guide knew something historically correct, after all?
Apparently not. Although the Mormons believed an early report that two men had died, it seems that report was in error. The three men who were wounded by the prophet—named Wills, Voras and Gallaher—were later indicted for the murders; their wounds were evidence that they had been present. So far as we can tell, none of them died from their wounds.
Tell me, do you believe the mob acted in self-defense when they killed Joseph Smith?
______________________________________
You shoot at a policeman and see what happens...
If the Documentary History of the Church tells about the guns, then the Church is not suppressing or whitewashing the story as you and Mr. McKeever would have us believe. Indeed, a June 1994 article in the Church's Magazine, the Ensign, mentions the weapons:
The four men had two firearms among them, left behind by friends: a single-shot pistol Joseph had passed to Hyrum and a six-shot pistol, called a pepperbox, which the Prophet retained. They also had two walking canes: a large hickory stick called a “rascal-beater” and a smaller walking cane. Joseph’s companions had used both to beat back the rabble while making their way from the Hamilton House to the jail two days earlier.Unfortunately, we will have to take Mr. McKeever's word for what some tour guide may or may not have said on the subject.
Hyrum Smith took a bullet through the door... Joseph Smith then reacts by pulling his gun out of his pocket, opens the door and attempts to unload all 6 shots -- 3 misfire, he shoots 3 and kills 2.
So much for your theory that the mob began shooting because they saw the gun in Joseph's hand.
Of course, it was not much of a theory to begin with: the mob had already shot and killed Hyrum through the door of the room. Even if he had drawn his weapon, no one in the mob could have seen it.
No, the members of the mob were not fired upon, threatened, or otherwise incited by Joseph Smith or any of his companions. The mob murdered Joseph and Hyrum Smith (and severely wounded John Taylor) in cold blood, and before either could stand trial.
. . . only being able to get out the initial part of the Masonic distress signal, "Oh lord my God..." -- as if it was a direct greeting to God.
Since no one but Joseph Smith and God can know what was going through Joseph's mind—or what he might have said next—this is all speculation. It certainly sounds as if Joseph was calling to God. Even if he intended to give the Masonic distress call, that it still a call to God—the Masons, so far as I know, believe in God.
The fact remains, Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum were lynched by a mob. Surely you are not making excuses for the actions of the mob, are you?
A nice red herring you have there.
The members of the mob weren't policemen or even jail guards; they were militiamen who had been ordered by the governor to disband and go home.
Instead of returning home, they volunteered to attack the jail and kill the Smiths. Some men in the mob blackened their faces to disguise their identities. None were acting in any official capacity.
As I pointed out in my previous post, the members of the mob were not fired upon, threatened, or otherwise incited by Joseph Smith or any of his companions. The mob murdered Joseph and Hyrum Smith (and severely wounded John Taylor) in cold blood, before either could stand trial.
Surely you are not making excuses for the actions of the mob, are you?
Joey Smith fired a gun that had been smuggled into the jail...
Why did an “innocent” man need a gun while he was in jail ???
He shot THREE men point blank...
Hardly the actions of a so called “martyr”
He was familiar with weapons and he shot to kill...
Hardly the actions of a so called “victim” of “cold blooded murder”
Joey Smith was only wounded from the first THREE bullets he recieved...
Hardly the results of “cold blooded murder”
200 in the group outside ???
And most of them sharp shooters...
And yet they didnt shoot to kill...
If they had he would have been dead from that first shot...
A LYNCH mob ???
And yet Joey Smith was in there several days...
They could have pulled him out and strung him up any time they wanted to...
He had been tarred and feathered in the past for raping young girls..
he knew the score...
May be they were angry because Joey Smith was just thumbing his nose at the law as usual..
he was sitting in jail, drinking booze and running his theocracy over in Nauvoo as though it was business as usual..
The men in the crowd were afraid for the virtue of the wives and young daughters, and the murder, thievery and mayhem that Joey Smith anf his Danites had done in their area...
Surely you are not making excuses for the actions of the mobster, Joey Smith, are you?
Obviously, his friends gave him the pistols because they were concerned for his life—with good reason, as it turned out.
He shot THREE men point blank...
Yes, Joseph did shoot at those who were trying to murder him and his companions—and who had just killed his brother. In a similar situation, I would have done the same. Even those you hate have the God-given right of self-defense.
...Hardly the actions of a so called “martyr”
Well, the word martyr originally meant "witness," and both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were witnesses of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Since I do not expect you to agree with me on that point, I will not press it.
He was familiar with weapons and he shot to kill...Hardly the actions of a so called “victim” of “cold blooded murder”
Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of a person by another person. The killings of Joseph and Hyrum were both premeditated and unlawful.
The term "in cold blood" means that the killing was done deliberately, not in the heat of passion or of battle. That applies here: the members of the mob joined a conspiracy to commit murder, and went so far as to disguise themselves beforehand.
Whether the murder victim is familiar with weapons or attempts to defend himself is beside the point.
Joey Smith was only wounded from the first THREE bullets he recieved...Hardly the results of “cold blooded murder”
You are becoming incoherent. Even if the first three wounds were not mortal, the fourth was. In other words, the mob kept firing to ensure that the man died.
200 in the group outside ??? And most of them sharp shooters... And yet they didnt shoot to kill...If they had he would have been dead from that first shot...
More incoherence. The mob obviously did shoot to kill, because they kept shooting until they had killed both Joseph and Hyrum Smith.
A LYNCH mob ???
Absolutely. They were a mob that set out to commit a lynching. Is that a difficult concept to grasp?
And yet Joey Smith was in there several days...They could have pulled him out and strung him up any time they wanted to...
What difference does it make how long Joseph and Hyrum were in jail awaiting trial? The fact is, the mob waited until the governor left town before attacking the jail.
May be they were angry because Joey Smith was just thumbing his nose at the law as usual..
Nonsense. Joseph and Hyrum Smith had given themselves up voluntarily to the governor to stand trial for the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor. While in jail, they were not a flight risk or a threat to anyone.
It was the members of the lynch mob who thumbed their noses at the law. They murdered two men and wounded a third, none of whom, in the eyes of the law, were guilty of any crime. (Perhaps they were not confident in the strength of the legal case against the Smiths.) Apparently the mob believed it permissible to kill someone you hate based on unproven allegations and without allowing him a fair trial.
It seems I misjudged you. You are making excuses for the actions of a lynch mob. I have read enough to realize there is no point continuing this conversation with you.
Good night.
Now, you're really getting incoherent! You're telling us if you were in these circumstances:
...arrested for high treason for abuse of power...
...due to implementing martial law as mayor of a city...
...as a means of trying to avoid arrest for the destruction of a printing press--putting what would have been a weekly publication permanently out of business...
...You would have...done the same thing...by...
...accepting a smuggled pistol while in jail...???
Really?
So-called messianic connection: Apparently J. Smith made some remark as he was heading back into town that he was going like a lamb to the slaughter. McKeever pointed out in the vid clip I posted how Mormons like to quote Smith as an attempt to portray him as some Messianic-like figure.
But what are the comparative facts? What if the Lamb of God, Jesus, had acted like Joseph Smith?
Imagine Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. He realizes he's going to be arrested.
So what does he do? Does he rebuke sword-wielding Peter and heal the soldier's ear had he been Smith-like? (No) Instead...
#1...before the soldiers arrived, the Mormon-like jesus would have hightailed it out of the garden across the river in order to not face consequences for his actions...
#2...then he would have had to be goaded back into town by a letter accusing him of cowardice (in Smith's case, the letter was from his first wife)...
#3...Instead of the true Jesus being helped along in carrying the cross by Simon of Cyrene, the Mormon-like jesus would have been "helped along" in carrying his cross by Cyrus of Nauvoo, who smuggled a weapon to the Mormon-like jesus...
#4...the Mormon-like jesus, instead of when threatened, would have actually joined Peter in cutting off ears with swords in hand and probably slitting throats...
#5...the Mormon-like jesus would have injured or killed three people...
#6...instead of having the famous line, "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword," I guess we have "he who lives by the smuggled pistol, dies by the rifle" -- but it's not very "Messianic" when we realize that what the true Jesus was teaching Peter has been turned on its head in the person of Joseph Smith.
#7...and then to top it all off...had the true Jesus acted like the Mormon-like jesus, we would have many millions more who would never even know that Jesus' "sword" words actually constituted a rebuke of Peter...
#8...and, in fact, we do see millions of the Mormon-like jesus followers now concluding (like you do): You know what, in a similar situation, I would have done the same -- and this entails not just taking up swords to cut off ears -- but actually still generations later defending criminally illegal actions of...
...(a) weapon smuggling into arrest situations;
...(b) possessing weapons in arrest situations -- and calling it "jesus-like";
...(c) using those weapons to try to kill multiple people.
[Yeah, just try mentioning you favor that the next time you try witnessing to a law enforcement officer or prison corrections officer]
Yeah, that's the portrait we want of the cross: A Roman soldier hammering a nail into the Lamb of God, and the Lamb of God responds by pulling a sword out of the soldier's sheath and proceeds to wound or kill three of them. (end sarc)
Now, you're really getting incoherent! You're telling us if you were in these circumstances:
...arrested for high treason for abuse of power...
...due to implementing martial law as mayor of a city...
...as a means of trying to avoid arrest for the destruction of a printing press--putting what would have been a weekly publication permanently out of business...
...You would have...done the same thing...by...
...accepting a smuggled pistol while in jail...???
Really?
So-called messianic connection: Apparently J. Smith made some remark as he was heading back into town that he was going like a lamb to the slaughter. McKeever pointed out in the vid clip I posted how Mormons like to quote Smith as an attempt to portray him as some Messianic-like figure.
But what are the comparative facts? What if the Lamb of God, Jesus, had acted like Joseph Smith?
Imagine Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. He realizes he's going to be arrested.
So what does he do? Does he rebuke sword-wielding Peter and heal the soldier's ear had he been Smith-like? (No) Instead...
#1...before the soldiers arrived, the Mormon-like jesus would have hightailed it out of the garden across the river in order to not face consequences for his actions...
#2...then he would have had to be goaded back into town by a letter accusing him of cowardice (in Smith's case, the letter was from his first wife)...
#3...Instead of the true Jesus being helped along in carrying the cross by Simon of Cyrene, the Mormon-like jesus would have been "helped along" in carrying his cross by Cyrus of Nauvoo, who smuggled a weapon to the Mormon-like jesus...
#4...the Mormon-like jesus, instead of when threatened, would have actually joined Peter in cutting off ears with swords in hand and probably slitting throats...
#5...the Mormon-like jesus would have injured or killed three people...
#6...instead of having the famous line, "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword," I guess we have "he who lives by the smuggled pistol, dies by the rifle" -- but it's not very "Messianic" when we realize that what the true Jesus was teaching Peter has been turned on its head in the person of Joseph Smith.
#7...and then to top it all off...had the true Jesus acted like the Mormon-like jesus, we would have many millions more who would never even know that Jesus' "sword" words actually constituted a rebuke of Peter...
#8...and, in fact, we do see millions of the Mormon-like jesus followers now concluding (like you do): You know what, in a similar situation, I would have done the same -- and this entails not just taking up swords to cut off ears -- but actually still generations later defending criminally illegal actions of...
...(a) weapon smuggling into arrest situations;
...(b) possessing weapons in arrest situations -- and calling it "jesus-like";
...(c) using those weapons to try to kill multiple people.
[Yeah, just try mentioning you favor that the next time you try witnessing to a law enforcement officer or prison corrections officer]
Yeah, that's the portrait we want of the cross: A Roman soldier hammering a nail into the Lamb of God, and the Lamb of God responds by pulling a sword out of the soldier's sheath and proceeds to wound or kill three of them. (end sarc)
Smith had ordered wine -- and according to Taylor it wasn't for sacramental purposes.
Roberts wrote DHC in 1902. What I was referencing, whitewash-wise, is what the Lds portrays...
...by Carthage Jail tour guides...
...Joseph Smith Memorial Building [film recreation of his death, where, of course, they never show him going for his pistol]
...other Lds articles in more recent times that fail to mention the shootout
I guess that bein' a "PROPHET" thingy ain't 100% accurate all the time!
How 'unknowing' is one when a PISTOL is stuck out the door and fired in YOUR direction?
Sounds like a MISSION field!!
He then leaps up on the window ledge to try to cry the Masonic signal for help ("Oh lord my God, is there no help for the widow's son?") --
Joe and Hi were in jail for destruction of private property.
Surely you're not advocating destruction of private property; are you?
Well then, I want to see some EVIDENCE that the BoM contains the RESTORATION that is so bandied about.
But may the Almighty Jehovah shield and defend me from all their power, and prolong my days in peace, that I may guide His people in righteousness, until my head is white with old age. Amen.
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, Ch. 9
The following prophecy by Joseph Smith, although it was fulfilled quickly and literally, is rarely cited by Mormons.
July 1828. D&C 3:4. “For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.”
On May 26, 1844, Joseph Smith made the following statement in a public sermon (Brodie p 374, HC 6:408-412):
“Come on, ye persecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
At this time he was secretly married to over 40 women, some of them wives of men still living. Many who knew of these secret marriages accused him of changing the doctrine of the church to satisfy his own carnal desires, in violation of the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2:23-29, 3:5) and D&C 49:16.
FULFILLMENT: Almost exactly one month after this boast, on June 27, 1844, he was killed shooting his way out of the Carthage Jail. he shot three men, killing two of them.
Actually that was the original charge. It was then upgraded to treason -- because Smith abused his mayoral power by declaring martial law. Surely, you, Logo, wouldn't dare ever advocate treason or the destruction of non-pornographic first-amendment generating property, would you?
Surely, the Lds Carthage jail tour guides wouldn't dare advocate treason or the destruction of non-pornographic first-amendment generating property by somehow failing to mention exactly the genuine reasons why Smith was arrested in the first place, would they?
Ever notice how protesters try to justify the murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith? Really, the protesters should get over that lie.
If they justify the murders at Carthage and Hawn’s mill, they have to call the murders at Mountain Meadows justified. You can’t have it both ways.
If he had kept his privates in his pants and not gone around destroying private property in the interest of keeping his shenanigans from being exposed, he wouldn’t have been in a position to be “martyred”.
Sorry, no sympathy here. The folks of that town obviously felt that he was going to get away with his affronts to public decency in addition to the destruction of private property and decided to dispense a bit of frontier justice. In retrospect, they unfortunately compounded the root of the problem.
The belief in polygamy, adultery and pedophilia in the name of God had taken root and BY now had a “martyr” he could hold up to the flock as “proof” of the so-called “correctness” of their abominable behavior.
SZ
Smith's first wife, Emma, essentially said this way before you did: "It was secret things which...cost Joseph and Hyrum their lives, and it will cost you and The Twelve your lives as it has done to them."
Don't you agree with Emma Smith on this, OMM? "It was the secret things which...cost Joseph and Hyrum their lives... (Or do you want to critique Emma?)
The fact is that it was a murderous mob of protestants that cost Joseph Smith his life. You can dance around it all you want but murder is still murder.
If Carthage was not murder, Haun’s mill not murder, then Mountain Meadows was not murder.
If I were in custody of someone who had joined in a murderous conspiracy against me and my friends, I would use any weapon at my disposal to defend myself and those with me.
But you seem to think that I would be wrong to do so. Indeed, you have tried to excuse the actions of a lynch mob because their intended victims dared to fight back. You even suggested—contrary to all evidence—that the mob attacked because they knew the victims were armed and ready to defend themselves. Even you could not sustain such a ludicrous theory.
So-called messianic connection: Apparently J. Smith made some remark as he was heading back into town that he was going like a lamb to the slaughter. McKeever pointed out in the vid clip I posted how Mormons like to quote Smith as an attempt to portray him as some Messianic-like figure.
I watched the video clip. The "messianic connection" exists only in the mind of McKeever and those foolish enough to believe what he says.
I will be as clear as possible: The Latter-day Saints do not regard Joseph Smith as the Messiah; we do not worship Joseph Smith; we do not believe Joseph Smith is the equal of Jesus Christ. We do believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, who is deserving of great honor and respect for the work he performed. But we are clear that Jesus Christ is the Master and Joseph Smith the servant.
But what are the comparative facts [sic]? What if the Lamb of God, Jesus, had acted like Joseph Smith?
Since Mormons do not believe that Joseph Smith was or is the Lamb of God, your comparison is fatuous at best.
To me, this is what it all boils down to. A so-called “man of God” would not have done the things he did that put him in that position. I don’t care how you slice it. He alone put himself in that predicament and it ended how it did. Justifiably or not, I can understand how those folks would have felt threatened for their wives and daughters and the actions they undertook to protect them.
SZ
Not exactly. Joseph Smith was in jail awaiting trial for the destruction of private property. He had not been tried or convicted of the offense.
After Joseph and Hyrum gave themselves up for trial, the charge was changed to treason, a non-bailable offense. Again, no trial was held.
Surely you're not advocating destruction of private property; are you?
I never have.
On the other hand, some of my conservative friends here seem to be advocating the death penalty—without trial—for the destruction of private property.
Had Joseph Smith been convicted on the original charge of "riot," I believe the maximum penalty would have been a $200 fine or six months in jail. He may well have been required to compensate the owners of the printing press.
No doubt the mob convinced themselves that Joseph Smith had done wrongs worthy of death. But why not wait for a trial?
Remember, Joseph and Hyrum had surrendered voluntarily. Even if they had been guilty of great crimes, they were no threat sitting in their jail cell. They were not a flight risk. The governor had promised a trial before a non-Mormon jury. There can be no reason to resort to murder.
I have not and would not.
Nor would I advocate lynching, whether it be for treason, destruction of property, or any other charge.
Sorry, no sympathy here. The folks of that town obviously felt that he was going to get away with his affronts to public decency in addition to the destruction of private property and decided to dispense a bit of frontier justice. In retrospect, they unfortunately compounded the root of the problem.
_______________________________________________
Joey Smith was the unelected Mayor of Nauvoo (Although he had been elected “king” LOL)
He was kept in jail because the Gov breought a charge of treason against him..
Joey Smith had decared martial law and had called out the Nauvoo Legion (maybe up to 5,000 men) just because of the newspaper being published...
Those milita had destroyed the press and burn the building...
Since Joey Smith had used his position to violate the constitutionall rights of those men and the citizens of Nauvoo, the Gov had him arrested etc...
Those citizens were sick of him and probably did think that Joey Smith was doing a King George and would get away with it as usual and they acted accordingly with their Tea Party..
King George was hanged in effergy and his governors and local rulers killed and driven off during the American Revolution...
And remember this was only 60 years after the end of the Revolution, and 30 years after the War of 1812...
Some of the men, and their dads and granddads would have fought for their right to live free, and here was “king” Joey Smith suppressing their rights again like the English king had done.
(And the mormons regard themselves as the “saviors” of the Constitution ROFLMBO)
Joey Smith had wantonly flaunted his one night stands, his stealing other mens wives, his boozing, his pyramid schemes, his land grabs, his corrupt government, his theocratic/dictatorial rule over Nauvoo. He had killed and stolen from the non-mormons and was a threat to their wives and young girls.
He thought he could take any woman and anything he saw. One woman he attacked fought him off him and told her husband. That husband, William Law, published the Nauvoo Expositor with the articles exposing Joey Smith.
And that, as Paul Harvey would say, is the rest of the story.
Since Mormons do not believe that Joseph Smith was or is the Lamb of God, your comparison is fatuous at best.
______________________________________________
Mormons believe that nobody gets into the mormon heaven without the say so of Joey Smith...
Since Mormons do not believe that Joseph Smith was or is the Lamb of God, your comparison is fatuous at best.
______________________________________________
This song that the mormons sing on Sunday mornibfgs is about Joey Smith not Jesus Christ...
Great is his glory and endless his priesthood:
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.
[”Praise to the Man,” Hymns, no.147]
Mormons believe that Joseph Smith will do what he is directed to do by Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Master, Joseph is his servant.
Mormons believe that nobody gets into the mormon heaven without the say so of Joey Smith...
___________________________________________
There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
—Joseph Fielding Smith (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).
“This [the LDS] Church...is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth”
—Joseph Smith (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30).
“This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth...”
—President Ezra Taft Benson(Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165).
“If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”
—Bruce McConkie (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
“This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life”
—Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).
Mormons believe that nobody gets into the mormon heaven without the say so of Joey Smith...
___________________________________________
Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—”Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 7 P289
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