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HISTORY OF THE HUGUENOTS
6/19/09 | ALPHA-8-25-02

Posted on 06/19/2009 3:54:08 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02

Who were the Huguenots?

John Calvin (1509 - 1564), religious reformer. The Huguenots were French Protestants who were members of the Reformed Church which was established in 1550 by John Calvin. The origin of the name Huguenot is uncertain, but dates from approximately 1550 when it was used in court cases against "heretics" (dissenters from the Roman Catholic Church). There is a theory that it is derived from the personal name of Besançon Hugues, the leader of the "Confederate Party" in Geneva, in combination with a Frankish corruption of the German word for conspirator or confederate: eidgenosse. Thus, Hugues plus eidgenot becomes Huguenot, with the intention of associating the Protestant cause with some very unpopular politics. O.I.A. Roche, in his book The Days of the Upright, a History of the Huguenots, writes that "Huguenot" is "a combination of a Flemish and a German word. In the Flemish corner of France, Bible students who gathered in each other's houses to study secretly were called Huisgenooten, or "house fellows," while on the Swiss and German borders they were termed Eidgenossen, or "oath fellows," that is, persons bound to each other by an oath. Gallicized into "Huguenot," often used deprecatingly, the word became, during two and a half centuries of terror and triumph, a badge of enduring honor and courage." As nickname and even abusive name it's use was banned in the regulations of the Edict of Nantes which Henry IV (Henry of Navarre, who himself earlier was a Huguenot) issued in 1598. The French Protestants themselves preferred to refer to themselves as "réformees" (reformers) rather than "Huguenots". It was much later that the name "Huguenot" became an honorary one of which their descendants are proud

A general edict which encouraged the extermination of the Huguenots was issued on January 29th, 1536 in France. On March 1st, 1562 some 1200 Huguenots were slain at Vassy, France. This ignited the the Wars of Religion which would rip apart, devastate, and bankrupt France for the next three decades.

St. Batholomew massacre, 1572 Click on image above for an enlarged view

During the infamous St Bartholomew Massacre of the night of 23/24 August, 1572 more than 8 000 Huguenots, including Admiral Gaspard de Coligny, Governor of Picardy and leader and spokesman of the Huguenots, were murdered in Paris. It happened during the wedding of Henry of Navarre, a Huguenot, to Marguerite de Valois (daughter of Catherine de Medici), when thousands of Huguenots converged on Paris for the wedding celebrations. Catherine de Medici It was Catherine de Medici who persuaded her weakling son Charles IX to order the mass murder, which lasted three days and spread to the countryside. On Sunday morning August 24th, 1572 she personally walked through the streets of Paris to inspect the carnage. Henry of Navarre's life was spared when he pretended to support the Roman Catholic faith. In 1593 he made his "perilous leap"and abjured his faith in July 1593, and 5 years later he was the undisputed monarch as King Henry IV (le bon Henri, the good Henry) of France. When the first rumours of the massacre reached the Vatican in Rome on 2 September 1572, pope Gregory XIII was jubilant and wanted bonfires to be lit in Rome. He was persuaded to wait for the official communication. The very morning of the day that he received the confirmed news, the pope held a consistory and announced that "God had been pleased to be merciful". Then with all the cardinals he repaired to the Church of St. Mark for the Te Deum, and prayed and ordered prayers that the Most Christian King might rid and purge his entire kingdom (of France) of the Huguenot plague. Pope Gregory XIII

On 8 September 1572 a procession of thanksgiving took place in Rome, and the pope, in a prayer after mass, thanked God for having "granted the Catholic people a glorious triumph over a perfidious race" (gloriosam de perfidis gentibus populo catholico loetitiam tribuisti).

Gregory XIII engaged Vasari to paint scenes in one of the Vatican apartments of the triumph of the Most Christian King over the Huguenots. He had a medal struck representing an exterminating angel smiting the Huguenots with his sword, the inscription reading: Hugonottorium strages (Huguenot conspirators). In France itself, the French magistracy ordered the admiral to be burned in effigy and prayers and processions of thanksgiving on each recurring 24th August, out of gratitude to God for the victory over the Huguenots.

Henry IV, himself a former Huguenot (as Henry of Navarre) The Edict of Nantes was signed by Henry IV on April 13th, 1598, which brought an end to the Wars of Religion. The Huguenots were allowed to practice their faith in 20 specified French "free" cities. France became united and a decade of peace followed. After Henry IV was murdered in 1610, however, the persecution of the "dissenters" resumed in all earnestness under the guidance of Cardinal Richelieu, whose favourite project was the extermination of the Huguenots.

Richelieu, who relentlessly persecuted the Huguenots. Henry IV's weakling sun, Louis the Thirteenth, refused them the privileges which had been granted to them by the Edict of Nantes; and, when reminded of the claims they had, if the promises of Henry the Third and Henry the Fourth were to be regarded, he answered that "the first-named monarch feared them, and the latter loved them; but I neither fear nor love them." The Huguenot free cities were lost one after the other after they were conquered by the forces of Cardinal Richelieu, and the last and most important stronghold, La Rochelle, fell in 1629 after a siege lasting a month.

Louis XIV Louis XIV (the Sun King, 1643-1715) began to apply his motto l'état c'est moi ("I am the state") and introduced the infamous Dragonnades - the billeting of dragoons in Huguenot households. He began with a policy of une foi, un loi, un roi (one faith, one law, one king) and revoked the Edict of Nantes on 22 October 1685. The large scale persecution of the Huguenots resumed. Protestant churches and the houses of "obstinates" were burned and destroyed, and their bibles and hymn books burned. Emigration was declared illegal. Many Huguenots were burned at the stake. Many Huguenots who did not find their death in local prisons or execution on the wheel of torture, were shipped to sea to serve their sentences as galley slaves, either on French galley ships, or sold to Turkey as galley slaves. A vivid account of the life of galley-slaves in France is given in Jean Marteilhes's Memoirs of a Protestant, translated by Oliver Goldsmith, which describes the experiences of one of the Huguenots who suffered after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

Every Huguenot place of worship was to be destroyed; every minister who refused to conform was to be sent to the Hôpitaux de Forçats at Marseilles and at Valance. If he had been noted for his zeal he was to be considered "obstinate," and sent to slavery for life in such of the West-Indian islands as belonged to the French. The children of Huguenot parents were to be taken from them by force, and educated by the Roman Catholic monks or nuns.

Scenes like these were common during the persecution of the Huguenots in France during the sixteenth and seventeenth century. Click on picture above for enlargement. At least 250 000 French Huguenots fled to countries such as Switzerland, Germany, England, America, the Netherlands, Poland and South Africa, where they could enjoy religious freedom. As many were killed in France itself. Between 1618 and 1725 between 5 000 and 7 000 Huguenots reached the shores of America. Those who came from the French speaking south of Belgium, an area known as Wallonia, are generally known as Walloons (as opposed to Huguenots) in the United States.

The organised large scale emigration of Hugenots to the Cape of Good Hope in South Africa occurred during 1688 - 1689. However, even before this large sscale emigration individual Huguenots such as François Villion (1671) and the brothers François and Guillaume du Toit (1686) fled to the Cape of Good Hope. In 1692 a total of 201 French Huguenots had settled at the Cape of Good Hope. Most of them settled in an area now known as Franschhoek ("French Corner"), some 70 km outside Cape Town, where many farms still bear their original French names.

A century later the promulgation of the Edict of Toleration on 28 November 1787 partially restored the civil and religious rights of the Huguenots in France.


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: calvin; catholic; churchhistory; france; godsgravesglyphs; huguenots; massacre; protestants; worldhistory
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FOR ALL WHO HAVE BEEN BRINGING THE STRAWMAN SERVATUS UP EVERY TIME A JOHN CALVIN ARTICLE IS POSTED TO IN SOME WAY DISCREDIT REFORMED PROTESTANTS.LEARN ABOUT ONE OF MANY,MOTHER ROMES CARE TOWARD GOD'S CREATION. TEN THOSAND MEN,WOMEN AND CHILDREN SLAUGHTERED.
1 posted on 06/19/2009 3:54:08 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02
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To: alpha-8-25-02
Why the yelling?


2 posted on 06/19/2009 3:57:18 PM PDT by darkwing104 (Lets get dangerous)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

Let’s not also forget how Henry VIII brought Huguenots to England in order to destroy the monasteries and hundreds of years worth of philosophical and theological works and priceless treasures because he knew no Englishman would willingly destroy his own heritage.


3 posted on 06/19/2009 3:58:14 PM PDT by Rodebrecht (What are you and who do you want?)
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

A BLESSED 500 YEAR CELEBRATION OF JOHN CALVIN’S BIRTH!


4 posted on 06/19/2009 3:59:31 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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To: Rodebrecht

/Also remember how the pope had the knights executed. And how the church was selling crap to peasants and telling them the crap would guarantee them salvation.


5 posted on 06/19/2009 4:04:10 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: mamelukesabre

I know your screen name is likely a reference to the sword of the Marines, but it’s also suitable, because your post reflects a philosophical version of the Mameluke’s barbarity.


6 posted on 06/19/2009 4:07:27 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

You’re in for a real treat with that one.


7 posted on 06/19/2009 4:10:20 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: mamelukesabre

I’m not going to get into a Catholic-vs-Protestant because it just devolves into silliness. “Your atrocity was worse than mine!” Blah blah blah. This stuff was hundreds of years ago in old Europe. We’re Americans and should be above that.


8 posted on 06/19/2009 4:11:34 PM PDT by Rodebrecht (What are you and who do you want?)
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To: mamelukesabre; All
And remember, above all, that the refusal of the Huguenots to surrender their firearms at the end of the Religious Wars was remembered by their descendants in America who enshrined that idea in their Constitution as the SECOND AMENDMENT, something even modern Catholics cherish, as they do the FIRST AMENDMENT, and the THIRD AMENDMENT.

BTW, although the Huguenot experience in France certainly inspired the first three amendments, it also served to warn future generations that the entirity of the Bill of Rights is vital to the rights and privileges of any free people.

9 posted on 06/19/2009 4:14:03 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: alpha-8-25-02

My Huguenot ancestors, the Sicards, escaped from La Rochelle to Ehgland and to the US in the 1680s...

About the time of the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes...

They smuggled out their precious Bible by baking it into a loaf of bread...

They lived in NYC and then founded New Rochelle, NY...

On the monument in Hudson Park of the 151 Huguenot names...

http://www.chadeayne.com/images/monument_names.jpg

Badeau, Du Bois, Mabille, Sicard,

are my direct ancestors..

Of the Walloons, Jesse De Forest is also my ancestor

His descendent, Simon De Forest, of Albany, NY, was a LOyalist killed in the American Revolution...

His daughter, Hannah (Ann) De Forest, born in Albany, NY married Stephen Secord (Sicard) born in New Rochelle, NY

Stephen’s mother was Madelaine Badeau, another Huguenot family..

My Huguenot forebears have been a source of inspiration and encouragement to me for most of my life..


10 posted on 06/19/2009 4:18:51 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

Wow! I am impressed that you know for sure about the link to your Huguenot ancestors. I have heard that one of mine may have been from the Huguenots, but haven’t been able to link it.


11 posted on 06/19/2009 4:29:16 PM PDT by AUsome Joy
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To: Tennessee Nana

I too am a Hutuenot and have a Huguenot cross which I find to be the most beautiful of all crosses.


12 posted on 06/19/2009 4:32:52 PM PDT by goosie
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To: alpha-8-25-02

Not a bad read

From my library:

“The Huguenots: their Settlements, Churches and Industries in England and Ireland.”

by Samuel Smiles

Genealogical Publishing Co, Inc.
Baltimore 1972

Originally published
New York 1868

BX9458.G7S5 1972

ISBN 0-8063—497-9


13 posted on 06/19/2009 4:39:12 PM PDT by Texas Fossil (Once a Republic, Now a State, Still Texas)
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To: Rodebrecht

Welcome to FR!
Good post.


14 posted on 06/19/2009 4:39:50 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

It may shock and startle some but protestantism always coincided with violence when it was implemented by the protestants. Those parts are rarely mentioned.

Protestantism arose with the support of State and immediately, where it began, siezed lands, plundered churches and monestaries, and persecuted Catholics.

This is a fact of historical record whether one believes protestants were right or wrong.


15 posted on 06/19/2009 4:40:16 PM PDT by lucias_clay (Its times like this I'm glad I'm a whig.)
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To: Rodebrecht

Welcome to Free Republic!


16 posted on 06/19/2009 4:41:44 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: AUsome Joy

What was your family name ???

“Official” Huguenots arrived here by about 1787 before the promulgation of the Edict of Toleration on 28 November 1787.

Louis XVI said that any descendant of Huguenots could return to France, worship how they pleased and be full French citizens...

Few took him up on his offer...

Without the Huguenot army, Louis was alone...

and Madame Guillotine was sharp...

http://www.huguenot.netnation.com/ancestor/default.htm


17 posted on 06/19/2009 4:45:15 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: netmilsmom; trisham

Thank you!


18 posted on 06/19/2009 4:46:05 PM PDT by Rodebrecht (What are you and who do you want?)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

This is not the first time that a French King and a Pope chose to persecute a group.

King Philip “the Fair” and Pope Clement V did something similar in France beginning on Friday October 13, 1307. There are those who still remember those outrages.

How long would it have taken and what would the outcome have been to colonize the U.S. had it not been for religious persecution in Europe?

Are those stains the reason our founders cautioned against any involvement (tangling alliances) with Europe?

Is that still good advice?


19 posted on 06/19/2009 4:50:00 PM PDT by Texas Fossil (Once a Republic, Now a State, Still Texas)
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To: goosie

The Cross of Languedoc ???

Yes it is...

The Huguenot Cross

History
The Cross shown here which has been adopted as the insignia of The National Huguenot Society is both beautiful and symbolic. It is not, however, exclusive to the Society. It is being used more and more throughout the world as a sign among the descendants of the Huguenots. Many designs of the Cross have been worn by Huguenots throughout the years. This particular design was discovered by the Reverend Andrew Mailhet in the province of Languedoc, France, and dates from at least the eighteenth century. It has, therefore, become known as the Cross of Languedoc.

It is impossible to know exactly when the Huguenots adopted the Huguenot Cross as a symbol and confirmation of their faith. However, it is believed to have been a sign of recognition among the French Protestants as early as the 17th century. It was patterned after the Order of the Holy Spirit insignia worn by Henry IV of Navarre, who issued the Edict of Nantes in 1598 to protect Protestant freedoms. The Huguenot Society of South Africa provides the following information as to its history:

“The Huguenot cross was designed and first manufactured by a certain Mystre of Nîmes in 1688. It has as its predecessor the badge of the Hospitaler Knights of St John of Jerusalem also known as the Knights of Malta, a religious and Crusader order founded in Jerusalem in the 7th century AD. In 1308 they occupied the island of Rhodes after the collapse of the Crusader states, and in 1530 formed the order of the Knights of Malta after Rhodes was surrendered to the Ottoman Turks. They lived for 4 centuries on the island of Malta, hence the name Maltese Cross for the central part. (The Maltese Cross is generally associated with fire and is the symbol of protection of fire fighters in many countries).”

“Other predecessors of the Huguenot Cross include the so-called Languedoc Cross, and the order decoration of the Order of the Holy Spirit which Henry III established on December 31st, 1578.”

Significance and Meaning
The gold Cross of Languedoc, with the official ribbon of the Society which is white, edged with stripes of French blue and gold has become the official insignia of The National Huguenot Society worn by members.

The Cross of Languedoc consists of four elements:
The insignia consists of an open four-petal Lily of France — reminiscent of the Mother Country of France — in which each petal radiates outward in the shape of a “V” to form a Maltese Cross.

The four petals signify the Four Gospels. Each petal, or arm, has at its outside periphery two rounded points at the corners. These rounded points are regarded as signifying the Eight Beatitudes.

The four petals are joined together by four fleur-de-lis, also reminiscent of the Mother Country of France. Each fleur-de-lis has has three petals. The twelve petals of the four fleur-de-lis signify the Twelve Apostles.

An open space in the shape of heart is formed between each fleur-de-lis and the arms of the two petals with which it is joined. This shape — a symbol of loyalty — suggests the seal of the great French Reformer, John Calvin.

A descending dove pendant representing the Saint Esprit or “Sainted Spirit” — the guide and counselor of the Church — is suspended from a ring of gold attached to the lower central petal.

http://www.huguenot.netnation.com/general/cross.htm

What was your family name ???


20 posted on 06/19/2009 4:50:13 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: alpha-8-25-02

Louis XIV didn’t necessarily represent the Catholic Church. He had his own agenda. And Cardinal Richelieu, who was his chief minister, was more of an ambitious politician than a servant of the Church.

There were plenty of injustices on both sides. While Catholics were killing Protestants in France, Calvin was burning heretics in Geneva. The schism in Christianity was bad all around. Perhaps the worst of it was the 30 Years War in the German States, which involved plentiful atrocities by both sides.

I have read numerous novels about the Huguenots, including one written by my great uncle back around 1895. I enjoyed them, but I never imagined that one side was all good and the other was all evil.

For a while, it was doubtful whether France would have a Catholic or a Protestant king. But whichever won was pretty certain to do what he felt necessary to consolidate his power.


21 posted on 06/19/2009 4:51:58 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Texas Fossil

King Philip “the Fair” and Pope Clement V did something similar in France beginning on Friday October 13, 1307. There are those who still remember those outrages.
____________________________________

HUH ???????


22 posted on 06/19/2009 4:52:44 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Cicero

For a while, it was doubtful whether France would have a Catholic or a Protestant king.
____________________________________________

Actually by law the king had to be catholic...

That’s why Henri IV had to become a Catholic..


23 posted on 06/19/2009 4:55:05 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Pyro7480

click on my name.

Are you trying to say my post is barbarity? Or are you trying to say that my post indicates barbarity(of the catholics)?

If it is the second, then I concur. If it is the first, then you are a clown.


24 posted on 06/19/2009 5:01:29 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: lucias_clay
How utterly ridiculous. The Protestant Revolution in France BEGAN with the top ranks of the state ~ the very family of the King of France were initially involved and started all the major movements. Check out who the DeGuise faction were related to. Even Richelieu's grandfather had been a Hugunot. Richelieu (the Jesuit Minister of State) seized his Huguenot grandfather's estate (a huge whopping place).

The fundamental issue in France was simple politics ~ who would be second to the king. They tested the process with newly developed lightweight personal firearms.

Very quickly the French found that an awful lot of people of all ranks and stations could end up dead with these items, and fired up with a little bit of ideological ferver, even more folks could end up dead.

That was stage one. Stage two was an uneasy peace under the Edict of Nantes. Stage three was a resumption of state persection of Huguenots.

Well over 150,000 well to do Huguenots are known to have emigrated from France during that period, and up to 1.5 million others probably emigrated. Civil records were not good during that period.

Our family castle was finally dismantled and scattered about as a "lesson to us" ~ so many of the remaining family members fled to Sweden where one of their number became the third ranking noble in the Vasa King's new nobility. He eventually conquered most of Europe, even brought the French in as allies (all was not well in the top ranks of French government at any time), founded Nieuwe Sweden, and scattered descendants all over the globe in every country. I think some of them still live in Scandinavia, and almost unbelievably, some of them managed to creep back to France.

The carnage in the royal family and noble ranks was so bad that it creates many difficult to handle genealogical blocks ~ just impossible to tell who had which kids, when, where and how.

25 posted on 06/19/2009 5:01:31 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: alpha-8-25-02

It is fitting to celebrate Calvin’s birth with memories of human cruelty.


26 posted on 06/19/2009 5:01:34 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Rodebrecht

If you don’t want to get into it, then don’t make posts like you did in number 3.


27 posted on 06/19/2009 5:03:02 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Rodebrecht

Welcome nOOb...

Got any proof about King Henry VIII of England ???

There was bad deeds on both sides...

The huguenots had their own standing army...

as did the Catholics...

They had their own walled cities...

an uneasy type of tolerance was the rule for the cities of both sides...

However long before the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes, Catholic soldiers were demanding to be “quartered” in Huguenot homes, etc...

This lead to the 2nd Amendment of the COTUS..many of the Patriots were descendants of Huguenots...

Paul Revere for one...George Washington...


28 posted on 06/19/2009 5:16:56 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: alpha-8-25-02

Ironically, here in central Virginia (place of Huguenot landing), a secular private school built to shelter white kids during segregation called Huguenot Academy was bought by the Catholic diocese of Richmond. It’s now called Blessed Sacrament Huguenot Catholic Academy. Every time I see the name I think someone must be rolling in their grave somewhere.


29 posted on 06/19/2009 5:20:17 PM PDT by constitutiongirl ("Duty is ours. Consequences are God's."- General Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson)
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To: Tennessee Nana

Sorry not the 2nd...

The 3rd Amendment


30 posted on 06/19/2009 5:21:41 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Texas Fossil
Here's another example:

The Albigensian Crusade or Cathar Crusade (1209–1229) was a 20-year military campaign initiated by the Roman Catholic Church to eliminate the Cathar heresy in Languedoc. The Crusade was prosecuted primarily by the French and promptly took on a political flavour, resulting in not only a significant reduction in the number of practicing Cathars but also a realignment of Occitania, bringing it into the sphere of the French crown and diminishing the distinct regional culture and high level of Aragonese influence. When Innocent III's diplomatic attempts to roll back Catharism[1] met with little success and after the papal legate Pierre de Castelnau was murdered (allegedly by an agent serving the Cathar count of Toulouse), Innocent III declared a crusade against Languedoc, offering the lands of the schismatics to any French nobleman willing to take up arms. The violence led to France's acquisition of lands with closer cultural and linguistic ties to Catalonia (see Occitan). An estimated 200,000 to 1,000,000 people were massacred during the crusade.[2][3]

Source: Ouiquipedie , L’encyclopédie libre

No wonder France is such a perennial mess. They killed or drove out all the independent-minded people.

31 posted on 06/19/2009 5:28:15 PM PDT by hellbender
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To: Tennessee Nana

Well, the law was changeable. And in fact the agreement that the various factions arrived at after the 30 Years’ War was “Cuius regio, eius religio.” I.e., whatever the king’s religion, that shall be the religion of the people.

But Henri IV did indeed choose the expedient course. It was what his key supporters wanted. As he said, “Paris vaut bien une messe.”


32 posted on 06/19/2009 5:43:32 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: darkwing104
I agree with you. It's history, lighten up.

In a lighter vein, Charlie Chaplin, silent film star, was a descendant of French Huguenots. Confusingly, he was buried in a Jewish cemetery, which often led to many saying he was Jewish. As Charlie once said in one of his films, ________________.

33 posted on 06/19/2009 5:48:12 PM PDT by CanaGuy (Go Harper!)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

I’d say there have been zealots on all sides who have gone too far and done evil in the name of their religion. The important thing is not to repeat their mistakes. All Christians are brothers in Christ and children of God. In that, we can take joy.


34 posted on 06/19/2009 5:48:40 PM PDT by Melian ("Now, Y'all without sin can cast the first stone." ~H.I. McDunnough)
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To: Rodebrecht

“This stuff was hundreds of years ago in old Europe. We’re Americans and should be above that.”

Agreed. Even the trolls and elves found a way to work together for the good of the Fellowship. ;o]


35 posted on 06/19/2009 5:50:56 PM PDT by Melian ("Now, Y'all without sin can cast the first stone." ~H.I. McDunnough)
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To: mamelukesabre

The Church sold EXACTLY what?

If you mean indulgences, please post your evidence for that. Got any?


36 posted on 06/19/2009 5:52:57 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998

relics, indulgences, whatever.


37 posted on 06/19/2009 5:54:13 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Texas Fossil

The pope did not persecute the Templars. The papacy eventually exhonerated the knights when the truth came out. Unfortunately by that time the order was disbanded and a number of knights had been executed. Read Frale’s book. She’s the one who uncovered the evidence.

It doesn’t matter how long it would have taken to colonize the Americas. It was happening no matter who came here, and we would know the difference because we couldn’t compare it to an “other” version.

Also, if the Protestant Revolution had never happened, Washington would never have had to warn anyone about entanglements with Europe. And Washington would have probably been an unknown English guy. Read Turtledove and make it up on your own.


38 posted on 06/19/2009 6:02:25 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: mamelukesabre

You wrote:

“relics, indulgences, whatever.”

The Church never sold indulgences. Some individuals violated canon law and did so, but the Church never sanctioned the sale of indulgences. I also know offhand of no case of the Church ever selling relics and they were not believed by the English peasantry to have anything to do with salvation anyway.


39 posted on 06/19/2009 6:04:15 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998

Ever heard of martin luther?


40 posted on 06/19/2009 6:07:13 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: muawiyah

You wrote:

“Richelieu (the Jesuit Minister of State) seized his Huguenot grandfather’s estate (a huge whopping place).”

Are you sure he was a Jesuit? I could very well be wrong on this, but I thought he was secular clergy.


41 posted on 06/19/2009 6:09:45 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: mamelukesabre

You wrote:

“Ever heard of martin luther?”

Sure have. Went through ALL of his books too - all 50 some odd volumes in translation, and guess what?

The Church STILL never sold indulgences. If you look at the instruction letter to Luther’s opponent, Johann Tetzel, you’ll see that people were expected to go through the usual process of completing the indulgence. At the end they would DONATE according to their station in life for the certificate. It was clearly stipulated that those with no money to donate were to be given the certificate anyway. Thus, nothing that could be called a “sale” was to take place. That was all in accordance with Church law and practice. What Tetzel did was not.


42 posted on 06/19/2009 6:14:34 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: alpha-8-25-02; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Corin Stormhands

This is HUGH and SERIES!


43 posted on 06/19/2009 6:18:24 PM PDT by xzins (Chaplain Says: Jesus befriends those who seek His help.)
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To: annalex

people in glass houses.....


44 posted on 06/19/2009 6:20:09 PM PDT by xzins (Chaplain Says: Jesus befriends those who seek His help.)
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To: vladimir998
I believe you're right ~ on the other hand he became a Cardinal, so it hardly matters.

Richelieu was the Catholic counterpart of the sort of non-royal, lower-noble leadership that'd risen up during the Religious Wars (which were not all that much "war" and had little to do with "religion").

He went into the clergy simply because the family needed control of the bishoporic they'd been looting for generations, and that way they wouldn't have to explain to religious why there was no money left for ecclesiastical purposes.

Thinks of them as "early TV preacher" types.

I suppose Richelieu was promoted most often because so many powerful figures around him thought of him as a useful idiot, an empty suit ~ and he turned into what can only be described as the world's first modern Prime Minister.

One article says he granted the Jesuits a monopoly on the fur trade ~ which suggests he either hated the Recollects, but hated the Jesuits more (getting them cooked on tribal campfires throughout the Ohio Country), or he wanted to get them out of the country. He also supposedly gave the Jesuits a monopoly on French missionary work ~ which, of course, got Jesuit priests cooked on yet other fires in even more primitive countries.

After Richilieu it was amazing that the Jesuits still existed.

45 posted on 06/19/2009 6:27:06 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: CanaGuy

>>As Charlie once said in one of his films, ________________. <<
Post of the Day!


46 posted on 06/19/2009 6:28:58 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: hellbender

Uh, no. France is a mess because the first secular revolution against God, the French Revolution, wrecked it.


47 posted on 06/19/2009 6:30:54 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: muawiyah

You wrote:

“I believe you’re right ~ on the other hand he became a Cardinal, so it hardly matters.”

The truth always matters.

“I suppose Richelieu was promoted most often because so many powerful figures around him thought of him as a useful idiot, an empty suit ~ and he turned into what can only be described as the world’s first modern Prime Minister.”

Uh, no. Richelieu gained his position in France because he was brilliant at what he did. I don’t like the man, but I acknowledge the fact that he had incredible talent. I think you would be hard pressed to find too many reputable historians who thought of him as an “empty suit”.

“One article says he granted the Jesuits a monopoly on the fur trade ~ which suggests he either hated the Recollects, but hated the Jesuits more (getting them cooked on tribal campfires throughout the Ohio Country), or he wanted to get them out of the country.”

The monopoly went to the trade company that was colonizing Canada. Richelieu allowed the Jesuits to serve as interpreters and negotiators so that they could serve the Indians and encourage conversions. What he - obviously - wanted to do was to help Jesuit missionaries. He didn’t want the Jesuits out of France as is seen by the fact that he made a Jesuit the king’s confessor. And he still didn’t have the best relationship with Jesuits.

“He also supposedly gave the Jesuits a monopoly on French missionary work ~ which, of course, got Jesuit priests cooked on yet other fires in even more primitive countries.”

Martyrdom is not a bad thing in the Christian view.

“After Richilieu it was amazing that the Jesuits still existed.”

No, it isn’t. He was in France. The Jesuits were based in Rome.


48 posted on 06/19/2009 6:40:47 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
The pope did not persecute the Templars.

Beg to differ.

The papacy eventually exhonerated the knights when the truth came out.

Did not happen, to this day there has been no exhoneration.

Jacques de Molay, last Grand Master of the Templar Knights, was burned stake on an island in the river Seine in Paris, Ile de la Cité, on 18 March 1314. The supression took place in 1307.

Read Turtledove and make it up on your own.

This Turtledove (fiction?)?

Harry Norman Turtledove (born June 14, 1949) is an American novelist, who has produced works in several genres including alternate history, historical fiction, fantasy and science fiction.

49 posted on 06/19/2009 6:41:54 PM PDT by Texas Fossil (Once a Republic, Now a State, Still Texas)
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To: hellbender

You wrote:

“No wonder France is such a perennial mess. They killed or drove out all the independent-minded people.”

They did? So the FRench Revolution never happened? After all that would take “independent-minded people.” France is screwed up because serfdom lasted too long, and the French Revolution was so violently WRONG. The culture was wrecked, the people were warped by the revolution and the secularization and France has never recovered.


50 posted on 06/19/2009 6:43:26 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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