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A Former Pro-life Activist Reflects on the Death of George Tiller
Lutheran Forum ^ | 1 June AD 2009 | Paul Sauer

Posted on 06/01/2009 9:43:23 AM PDT by lightman

A Former Pro-life Activist Reflects on the Death of George Tiller

by Paul Sauer — June 01, 2009

When I heard the initial news teaser on the radio that an abortion provider had been shot at a church, I knew both the abortionist and the church before either were named. Few abortionists were as outspoken about the abortion services they provided as George Tiller. No other abortionist was as outspoken about his involvement in a church as George Tiller. The sickening part about waiting for the actual story was to see if I would recognize the name of the alleged gunman from my time as a college pro-life leader...

When I heard the initial news teaser on the radio that an abortion provider had been shot at a church, I knew both the abortionist and the church before either were named. Few abortionists were as outspoken about the abortion services they provided as George Tiller. No other abortionist was as outspoken about his involvement in a church as George Tiller. The sickening part about waiting for the actual story was to see if I would recognize the name of the alleged gunman from my time as a college pro-life leader. The remainder of my drive home was made worse by the familiarity of his name. (Fortunately, as I checked my old records, and the directory of my old group this morning – his name does not come up. I think that the name Roeder was in my mind because I had just finished reading a book on Delta Force and the Iran Hostage Crisis – a David Roeder was one of the hostages).

This whole tragedy sickens me, because it embodies everything that is wrong with the climate surrounding abortion today.

George Tiller honestly believed that he was helping women. Of that I have no doubt based on my conversations with his pastor over a decade ago. He was not the same as another abortionist I got to know who was on the record as saying that he set up his clinics in the inner city because there were “too many poor black children,” although I suppose he too thought he was being helpful, even if he didn’t recognize the overt and abhorrent racism of his position. The failure of the pro-life movement, and by extension, the church, was that it did not find an effective way of convincing George Tiller that what he was doing was wrong. Indeed, the actions of not-a-few pro-lifers probably convinced him of precisely the opposite. Here on the one hand you have grateful women who have been helped out of “a difficult situation” and people who praise him as a “hero.” On the other side you have those who drove him to wear a bullet-proof vest (this was not the first time he had been shot). Perhaps, I am a poor Lutheran theologian, but I have always believed that “a law that is not heard is not effective law.” The impetus on the pro-life movement was to do better. To make the “for me” of the law as much a part of George Tiller’s life as the “for me” of the gospel. We did not. His church failed him. We failed.

The great challenge today surrounding abortion is how to move beyond the accurate descriptions of what each side believes. Pro-life people believe abortion is killing. It is not wrong to say that, and yet such language, and its ancillary positions is polarizing. Pro-choice people believe abortion helps women and its corollary position that to forbid abortion hurts women, is likewise polarizing.

The problem arises when these polarizing statements of belief become a means of demonizing opponents: “People who support abortion must be anti-Christian” or “they are only in it for the money.” It is one thing to believe that abortion is killing and abortionists are killers, it is another to believe that abortionists are knowingly murdering children. I do not believe that for men like George Tiller that was the case. He honestly believed he was helping women via a medical procedure. Abortionists like Beverly McMillan and Bernard Nathanson, who come to the conclusion that the medical procedure of abortion results in the taking of a human life, generally stop performing abortions. As pro-lifers the obviousness of the human life of a “fetus” may be beyond dispute. It does not mean that it is equally obvious to all – even to a doctor who should know better.

The demonization occurs by pro-choice people as well. One of the more popular chants by pro-choice people outside of abortion clinics was “Racist, sexist, anti-gay, born-again bigots – go away.” There is a strong sense among some pro-choice people that to oppose abortion is to be anti-women. A belief that the concern of pro-lifer’s is not really the protection of the unborn, but the subjugation of women - this despite the fact that the largest by-far women’s organization in the United States, Concerned Women for America, is pro-life.

I believe that there are two significant events that have contributed to our current climate.

The first was the founding of Operation Rescue in 1986. Prior to this, leadership in the pro-life movement had been provided primarily by Roman Catholics (and some Lutherans) who had a broader, well reasoned sense of ethics. Early leaders like John Cavanaugh O’ Keefe (and Richard John Neuhaus) came from both the civil rights and anti-war movements. With the arrival of Randall Terry and the predominantly evangelical protestant leaders of Operation Rescue, the movement shifted. There was a less developed sense of ethics. The place of abortion within a wider social justice perspective was replaced by abortion as a stand-alone issue. The goal was to stop abortion by any means necessary. Some even went as far to say that a moral evil (killing an abortionist) could be used to bring about a moral good (stopping abortion), a position that was abhorrent to the classically developed ethics of the early pro-life leaders. It is the difference between a functionalist, modern-American evangelical Christianity that is concerned primarily with results, and a classical catholic Christianity that is concerned primarily with faithfulness. When abortion is viewed as a moral war to be won at all costs rather than an ethical issue it is not surprising that the rhetorical extremes have only grown since that time.

The second action, which I believe has led directly to the current climate where violence is seen as a solution to the violence of abortion was the passage of the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances (FACE) bill in 1994. This bill placed non-violent civil disobedience on the same level as violent activity (A federal rime!). The rise in the number of actual violent attacks on clinics and abortion providers bears out that this quashing of non-violent protest has moved some on the fringes of the pro-life movement into more violent activity. When abortion is seen as a war and not an ethical issue, you pragmatically count the cost about the effectiveness of your actions. George Tiller’s assassin, in that regard, was effective.

Where do we go from here? I wish I had an answer. I do believe that any solution must start with repentance. Not the call to repentance of others, like George Tiller, but the call to repentance of myself - for the ways in which I have contributed to this poisoned climate. Only then, when we begin to see the God-loved humanity of “our opponents” in the same way that we see the humanity of the unborn, can we truly consider ourselves pro-life. abortion


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Mainline Protestant; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: abortion; elca; moralabsolutes; moralrelativism; paulsauer; prolife; tiller
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Paul Sauer had interviewed the Pastor of Reformation Lutheran, scene of the murder, several years ago.

Regarding that interview, he wrote

Being in the midst of the day-to-day battle over abortion led to a crisis of faith that went far deeper than the parlor games of Valparaiso. For the first time in my life the “authority question” came up. It happened on a warm spring day in Kansas. CALL had organized a regional weekend of activism which drew hundreds of college students to the campus of Wichita State. In addition to picketing abortion clinics, hosting speakers, and doing literature distribution on campus, some members of CALL wanted to picket a Lutheran church where the notorious late-term abortionist George Tiller was a member. In a compromise, I volunteered to meet with the pastor to express my concern and get his side of the story. The moral ambiguity espoused by the pastor remains to this day one of the most disturbing, indelible images of my time with CALL. I learned that, not only was George Tiller a member, but he even occasionally assisted with communion. “How could I,” the pastor asked, “question the faith of this man who thought that he was helping women?” Out of this conversation, I discovered what I saw as the great weakness of Lutheranism—where is the authority? If anyone can interpret Scripture, does that mean he can also come to any conclusion he wants?

1 posted on 06/01/2009 9:43:23 AM PDT by lightman
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To: aberaussie; Aeronaut; aliquando; AlternateViewpoint; AnalogReigns; Archie Bunker on steroids; ...


Lutheran (ELCA) Ping!

Be sure to visit www.lutheransforlife.org

2 posted on 06/01/2009 9:45:27 AM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini.)
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To: lightman

Where to we go from here?

Get ride of the FACE act.

Honor the will of the people. Stop judicial overrides of abortion restrictions. Give pro-life people legitimate ways of changing the system, instead of leaving them powerless.


3 posted on 06/01/2009 9:45:52 AM PDT by Marie2 (The second mouse gets the cheese.)
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To: lightman

Guys like this writer make me sick. He’s a moral relativist to the nth degree. To say that a Dr who performed third trimester abortions on a regular basis genuinely saw himself as ‘helping woman’ but couldn’t see those murdered babies...nearly full term infants! as human beings strain all credulity.


4 posted on 06/01/2009 9:50:37 AM PDT by pgkdan ( I miss Ronald Reagan!)
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To: Marie2

You are correct on all counts!

Read Mark Levin’s book, Liberty and Tyranny!

The civil order is at risk when the government ignores the will of the people.

The civil order is also at risk when higher authorities usurp the authority of lower authorities.

The national government has ignored the rights of the States and the rights of families.

This resulting chaos was predictable.


5 posted on 06/01/2009 9:51:31 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: lightman

This ambiguity is why there is no central authority for Christianity. The Catholic world wrongly lives with the failures of Notre Dame, Boston College, the Vatican and other central authority figures (in addition to suffering from errant teaching). But, the eternal Body of Christ assesses each situation, each man based upon what they are saying at the time, in accordance with a clear, ordinary understanding of the Scriptures. We reject and criticize without fear of “headquarters” disapproving, because we are told to evaluated all things and cling to that which is true.


6 posted on 06/01/2009 9:52:56 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Marie2

But the tone needs to change as well. Being reactionary and hysterical about anything means the other side just digs in harder. Those trying to find their way to the right decisions and position get nothing to work with.

Celebrate life, encourage people to find ways to embrace it and I think more people would embrace it.


7 posted on 06/01/2009 9:53:28 AM PDT by misterrob (A society that burdens future generations with debt can not be considered moral or just)
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To: pgkdan
Pro-life people believe abortion is killing. It is not wrong to say that, and yet such language, and its ancillary positions is polarizing.

Polarizing? Unbelievable.

8 posted on 06/01/2009 9:53:43 AM PDT by frogjerk (C-NJ)
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To: lightman

“The moral ambiguity espoused by the pastor remains to this day one of the most disturbing, indelible images of my time....”

When I heard the news about Tiller, the most shocking part of the story was that he was an usher at this church. Being killed while attending church....just wow!!

What type of church would support such a person? Fox News reported today that he had performed over 60,000 late term abortions and that his parents performed illegal abortions.

The church part of this story just blows me away.


9 posted on 06/01/2009 10:00:06 AM PDT by BlessingsofLiberty
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To: frogjerk

What that writer fails to grasp is that the steady slide to couching the practice of abortion in sanitary terms is what has precisely brought us to this day.

“Partial-birth abortion” sounds so much more antiseptic than infanticide, doesn’t it?


10 posted on 06/01/2009 10:01:34 AM PDT by Right Cal Gal (Abraham Lincoln would have let Berkeley leave the Union without a fight)
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To: misterrob

I’m truly curious. How would you suggest changing the tone?


11 posted on 06/01/2009 10:01:48 AM PDT by ColoCdn (Neco eos omnes, Deus suos agnoset)
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To: lightman
“How could I,” the pastor asked, “question the faith of this man who thought that he was helping women?”

A decent man questions that person's faith by comparing their works to God's Word. I question the faith of those who thought Hitler was helping the entire human race - the Bible makes the correct answer apparent. I question the faith of Christians who thought that Stalin was bringing equality and betterment to those in need - again, the Bible speaks to those issues. I question the faith of those who claim to follow Jesus but think that obama's personal narrative excuses his advocacy for post-birth abortion - once again, the Bible cannot be reconciled with obama's choices so far in his public life. I would be ashamed of any pastor too lacking in values to take a stand against gross immorality of any kind.

12 posted on 06/01/2009 10:03:51 AM PDT by TurtleUp (So this is how liberty dies - to thunderous applause!)
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To: Right Cal Gal
What that writer fails to grasp is that the steady slide to couching the practice of abortion in sanitary terms is what has precisely brought us to this day. “Partial-birth abortion” sounds so much more antiseptic than infanticide, doesn’t it?

BINGO!

What I am hoping this tragedy brings forth is vivid descriptions of the "procedures" that Tiller was involved in. "Vengeance is mine says the Lord" and the violence committed to Tiller at this so-called church is wrong.

13 posted on 06/01/2009 10:05:53 AM PDT by frogjerk (C-NJ)
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To: lightman
If anyone can interpret Scripture, does that mean he can also come to any conclusion he wants?

Yes, if you're ELCA, they do it all the time.

14 posted on 06/01/2009 10:08:35 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Dutchboy88

Blaming the Catholic Church? How about this Protestant church who welcomed and approved of Tiller the killer so much that they even made him an usher?


15 posted on 06/01/2009 10:09:25 AM PDT by bronxville
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To: lightman
One of the last late term abortionists left standing called pro-lifers "anti-abortionists". They choose their terminology carefully.

All I can add is that evil begets evil.

16 posted on 06/01/2009 10:10:22 AM PDT by floriduh voter (Obama's White House: Where men look like women & women look like men.)
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To: Kansas58
Liberty & Tyranny still No. 1.

I love Mark Levin, the big dope.

17 posted on 06/01/2009 10:11:27 AM PDT by floriduh voter (Obama's White House: Where men look like women & women look like men.)
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To: bronxville

AT LEAST Calvary Baptist Church kicked Judge Greer out for his role in killing Terri Schiavo. Lutherans get squishy about civil rights and politics. They shouldn’t be.


18 posted on 06/01/2009 10:12:57 AM PDT by floriduh voter (Obama's White House: Where men look like women & women look like men.)
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To: Dutchboy88

“Boston College”? Want to explain that?


19 posted on 06/01/2009 10:13:17 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: TurtleUp

The pastor should have questioned Tiller’s faith because many Bible verses state that killing an unborn baby is murder. No Bible verse states that God approved of killing babies.


20 posted on 06/01/2009 10:14:26 AM PDT by PhilCollins
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To: floriduh voter

I didn’t know that...thanks for the info and kusos for the Calvary Baptist Church.


21 posted on 06/01/2009 10:15:10 AM PDT by bronxville
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To: bronxville

Oh, absolutely. This guy’s “pastor” should have his head examined and told that including the doctor in “fellowship” was completely out of line. Then the rest of the believers should reject both the doctor and his pastor. Try that in a Catholic world when some bishop notes that the holocaust did not occur.


22 posted on 06/01/2009 10:15:25 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: lightman
The first was the founding of Operation Rescue in 1986. Prior to this, leadership in the pro-life movement had been provided primarily by Roman Catholics (and some Lutherans) who had a broader, well reasoned sense of ethics. Early leaders like John Cavanaugh O’ Keefe (and Richard John Neuhaus) came from both the civil rights and anti-war movements. With the arrival of Randall Terry and the predominantly evangelical protestant leaders of Operation Rescue, the movement shifted. There was a less developed sense of ethics. The place of abortion within a wider social justice perspective was replaced by abortion as a stand-alone issue. The goal was to stop abortion by any means necessary.

This is an excellent point I have been making all day today. The pro-life movement MUST be conducted within the context of a foundational ethic. It is never a stand-alone issue. That is not to say that the morality of abortion is relative -- not at all. Abortion is objectively immoral; it is murder, no question about it. But how it gets addressed in the public sphere has moral implications, as well.
23 posted on 06/01/2009 10:15:41 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: bdeaner

So, if the moral implications of the argument in the public sphere were to ultimately dilute the principle that life is sacred, is that a compromise that you would be willing, like Douglas Kmiec, to make? If so, for what level of benefit?


24 posted on 06/01/2009 10:19:59 AM PDT by ColoCdn (Neco eos omnes, Deus suos agnoset)
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To: Dutchboy88

So you’re damning someone for an opinion, however confused, as opposed to someone who ordered the killing of a human being? You’re as bad as the New York Times.


25 posted on 06/01/2009 10:21:31 AM PDT by bronxville
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To: lightman

“George Tiller honestly believed that he was helping women. Of that I have no doubt based on my conversations with his pastor over a decade ago. He was not the same as another abortionist I got to know who was on the record as saying that he set up his clinics in the inner city because there were “too many poor black children,” although I suppose he too thought he was being helpful, even if he didn’t recognize the overt and abhorrent racism of his position. The failure of the pro-life movement, and by extension, the church, was that it did not find an effective way of convincing George Tiller that what he was doing was wrong. Indeed, the actions of not-a-few pro-lifers probably convinced him of precisely the opposite. Here on the one hand you have grateful women who have been helped out of “a difficult situation” and people who praise him as a “hero.” On the other side you have those who drove him to wear a bullet-proof vest (this was not the first time he had been shot). Perhaps, I am a poor Lutheran theologian, but I have always believed that “a law that is not heard is not effective law.” The impetus on the pro-life movement was to do better. To make the “for me” of the law as much a part of George Tiller’s life as the “for me” of the gospel. We did not. His church failed him. We failed.”

Are we to believe that this person dedicated his professional life, as one of only three in the whole country, to terminate viable babies as a means of doing good? BARF! What goes around, comes around... and then there were two.


26 posted on 06/01/2009 10:26:00 AM PDT by Mashood
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma; lightman

My information indicates that the nearby LCMS congregation excommunicated him (so the author best stop painting (real) Lutherans with a broad brush).

The big question now is...wil Hanson make a statement? How about the ELCA’s health-care provider?


27 posted on 06/01/2009 10:27:34 AM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (FreepMail me if you want on the Bourbon ping list!)
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To: massgopguy

Boston College is/was a Catholic institution that has left all form of adherence to the Scriptures in favor of the secular world view of liberalism and death. In a hierarchical system, this powerhouse that implies it speaks for the Catholics while the Vatican tries vainly to reel them in.

The Scriptures do not support such a “system” of the Church. It is comprised of independent, small groups accountable within themselves and are easily shunned when the teaching or behavior gets away from Scriptural limits. The epistles of Paul and Peter are full of this kind of guidance.


28 posted on 06/01/2009 10:28:40 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: ColoCdn
So, if the moral implications of the argument in the public sphere were to ultimately dilute the principle that life is sacred, is that a compromise that you would be willing, like Douglas Kmiec, to make? If so, for what level of benefit?

Well, I think Douglas Kmiec is a weasel with his head up his butt, to be frank. So, no, I do not endorse Kmiec's rationalizations for voting in favor of a pro-choice candidate. I don't think it is ever justified to vote for any political candidate, or support any issue, that is tied in any way, to abortion. To do so, in any capacity, is to become an accomplice to murder.

The question at hand is whether you should go around, as a vigilante, killing people who perform abortions. And my point is that this is not justified morally. What it does is hurt the pro-life cause because it sends a conflicting message about murder. The pro-life message will be most powerful when it sends a clear, consistent pro-life message, including the strong advocacy of non-violent intervention. This keeps the pro-life cause on the moral high-ground that will eventually win the "war" against abortion. In my humble opinion anyway.
29 posted on 06/01/2009 10:29:33 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: ColoCdn

Note: Then again, some people say Martin Luther King Jr. and his crowd would not have advanced civil rights so far with their non-violent interventions if there had not been, on the other hand, the threat of a violent alternative, e.g. Black Panthers, Malcolm X, etc.


30 posted on 06/01/2009 10:31:42 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: bronxville

Back the truck up. I am not “damning” anyone here. I am saying that the pastor has his head firmly planted in a body cavity for having the doctor fellowship in with other believers. The doctor was worse than the man sleeping with his mother/step-mother in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians (I Cor.). Paul said, get the guy out.

And, who ordered the killing of a human being?

I may be as bad as the New York Times, but probably not for the same reasons.


31 posted on 06/01/2009 10:34:41 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: lightman

It hasn’t been proven that this killing had anything whatsoever to do with abortion, yet anti-lifers, including Obama, go ahead and frame it as such.

They just can’t let a crisis go to waste, can they?


32 posted on 06/01/2009 10:35:07 AM PDT by Julia H. (Remember when dissent was patriotic?)
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To: lightman

Moral truth is as polarizing today as it was in Christ’s time on earth. He didn’t mince words or adopt a kinder, gentler rhetoric of compromise.


33 posted on 06/01/2009 10:39:56 AM PDT by mikeus_maximus (The GOP is populated by "moderates"; conservatives are just their useful idiots. Go third party!)
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To: pgkdan
Guys like this writer make me sick.

You know what? He makes me sick, too. There are too many verses in the Bible giving warning about "a way that seems right". Anybody, and I mean ANYBODY, can rationalize any act, no matter how cruel. Does that mean we smile and nod and say, "But she truly meant it for her child's own good," in a case of horrific child abuse? There are sickening examples throughout history of "true believers" who were convinced they were doing good.

I'm not weeping today for Tiller's soul nor for his family members. His wife and children enjoyed all the material goods his infamous career brought them while turning a blind eye to the reality of his acts. I would not want to be George Tiller right now.
34 posted on 06/01/2009 10:42:34 AM PDT by ChocChipCookie (Earth: It's not your mother, it's just a big rock.)
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To: bdeaner

The writer of this article falsely (although whether maliciously I don’t know) arrogates to Operation Rescue and Randall Terry the belief that they must “stop abortion by any means necessary”. When has Randall Terry or Operation Rescue, or any other respected pro-life organization ever advocated the assassination of abortionists? Never.

So if this Roeder guy is a recognized part of some group within the pro-life movement then, yes there are mixed messages being sent. Otherwise, this guy was pathological and all the pro-life movement has to do is say he’s not part of us, he deserves the fullest punishment of the law, and abortion is still wrong. Without apology.

I was never a fan of Practical Ethics in school. I’m not a Singer fan now either. So if a broad based ethics is what this writer is seeking, I’d like to see that basis. The devil, as they say, is in the details.

Until then, count me unconvinced.


35 posted on 06/01/2009 10:48:38 AM PDT by ColoCdn (Neco eos omnes, Deus suos agnoset)
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To: pgkdan

Yeah, he wanted to help women all right. He wanted to help them empty their bank accounts to pay his hefty fee. If he was really all about helping women, he wouldn’t have charged them for his services, or at least not very much. This man got rich off of what he was doing.


36 posted on 06/01/2009 10:57:36 AM PDT by murron (Proud Marine Mom)
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To: pgkdan

I didn’t get moral relevance out of this screed. What I did get was his sense of moral superiority, his higher ethical reasoning that shied away from polarization, even though polarization shouldn’t be avoided by Christians confronting evil. Call a sin a sin. Tiller should have been excommunicated from his church unless or until he repented. The fact that he justified his actions with a convoluted moral defense that missed the only relevant moral point, makes Tiller worse than the evil abortionists who don’t assault us with hypocrisy.

I’ve never advocated violence, quite the opposite. This will hurt the pro-live movement, and it will hurt Christians. I’m sorry for that, but I could care less about the life of Tiller. I believe he abandoned his God given dignity in exchange for deciding his own morality. Had he done so in a way that didn’t involve the lives of others, I would feel grief, but he destroyed the lives of innocent children. Paul, when confronted with Judaizers who circumcised Christians, wished they would slip with the knives and cut off their own privates. This is my sentiment towards abortionists. They should do us a favor, and abort themselves. Likewise, I am disgusted by the church that shunned its responsibility to distinguish the body of Christ from the world. How is that for a high, ethical conscientiousness?


37 posted on 06/01/2009 11:00:19 AM PDT by pallis
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To: ColoCdn
The writer of this article falsely (although whether maliciously I don’t know) arrogates to Operation Rescue and Randall Terry the belief that they must “stop abortion by any means necessary”. When has Randall Terry or Operation Rescue, or any other respected pro-life organization ever advocated the assassination of abortionists? Never.

You're absolutely right! I completely agree.
38 posted on 06/01/2009 11:00:25 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: Dutchboy88
The Scriptures do not support such a “system” of the Church. It is comprised of independent, small groups accountable within themselves and are easily shunned when the teaching or behavior gets away from Scriptural limits.

One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church exists because it was instituted by Christ Himself.

History is rife with these independent, small groups accountable to within themselves that are NOT easily shunned. It is the history of the breeding ground of pride and heresy.

39 posted on 06/01/2009 11:19:23 AM PDT by frogjerk (C-NJ)
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To: pallis
This will hurt the pro-live movement, and it will hurt Christians.

I have seen this comment over and over in many threads and think its origins are from the evil one. This nut's actions (killing of Tiller) are not supported by the pro-life movement.

I would encourage everyone that is pro-life to not give the enemy any foothold by repeating any such assertion. Christians cannot be hurt by the enemy except thru their own lack of faith.

40 posted on 06/01/2009 11:24:38 AM PDT by frogjerk (C-NJ)
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To: floriduh voter
Lutherans get squishy about civil rights and politics. They shouldn’t be.

Please understand there are huge differences in "Lutheran" churches.

The only thing the ELCA and LCMS have in common is the name "Lutheran" and there is nothing Lutheran about the ELCA.

41 posted on 06/01/2009 11:28:59 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: PhilCollins
The pastor should have questioned Tiller’s faith because many Bible verses state that killing an unborn baby is murder. No Bible verse states that God approved of killing babies.

You are so naive. The pastor didn't care. The ELCA doesn't care. They even pay for abortions in their health care plans.

42 posted on 06/01/2009 11:35:20 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: wagglebee; Coleus

ping


43 posted on 06/01/2009 11:36:48 AM PDT by aposiopetic
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel

Great news if the LCMS excommunicated. It proves my leaving the ELCA for the LCMS was the correct decision.


44 posted on 06/01/2009 11:37:50 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: lightman

“it is another to believe that abortionists are knowingly murdering children. I do not believe that for men like George Tiller that was the case.”

Late term abortions require the delivery of the entire baby except the head, then sucking out the babies brain so it isn’t born alive. I’m not sure what insane logic allows one to think this isn’t killing (or murdering if you prefer) a baby, but there is no getting around the fact the baby has to be killed to prevent a live birth. If Tiller can rationalize this as “helping mothers,” then someone who kills a child with Down’s Syndrome can make exactly the same argument.


45 posted on 06/01/2009 11:50:21 AM PDT by yazoo (Conservatives believe what they see. Liberals see what they believe.)
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To: BlessingsofLiberty

“he had performed over 60,000 late term abortions”

Stop being so polarizing. He helped 60,000 mothers.


46 posted on 06/01/2009 11:52:06 AM PDT by yazoo (Conservatives believe what they see. Liberals see what they believe.)
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To: frogjerk

History is current showing the problem of the monolithic giant that claims sole ascension to the throne. Talk about pride and heresy.


47 posted on 06/01/2009 11:58:05 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

True - a poor choice of wording on my part. What you were doing was comparing someone for an opinion, confused though it might be, vs a judge who ordered the killing of a human being. That’s something the NY Times is good at - you’re not bad yourself.


48 posted on 06/01/2009 12:08:47 PM PDT by bronxville
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To: Dutchboy88

Actually, history is one of the proofs of the Catholic Church.


49 posted on 06/01/2009 12:59:25 PM PDT by frogjerk (C-NJ)
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To: yazoo
Tiller can rationalize this as “helping mothers,” then someone who kills a child with Down’s Syndrome can make exactly the same argument.

Harken back to McCain's naming of Sarah Palin as his Vice Presidential candidate. The left expressed complete disgust that she was the mother of a Down's syndrome baby because "she wouldn't get an abortion." No praise for her courage and love for the unborn, but disdain and revulsion of a woman who valued life above all else.

50 posted on 06/01/2009 1:01:31 PM PDT by Right Cal Gal (Abraham Lincoln would have let Berkeley leave the Union without a fight)
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