Posted on 05/27/2009 7:01:47 AM PDT by xzins
In the Feb. 10 issue of The Christian Century, Daniel M. Bell Jr. states in “God Does Not Require Blood” that he is opposed to the substitutionary doctrine of the atonement, or any doctrine of the atonement, for that matter, in which blood is a key element.
Reacting to the most crass and extreme expressions of suffering and substitution, Dr. Bell links the blood stuff with violence, primitive (and therefore inadequate) views of justice, war, spousal abuse and all sorts of bad things.
He grants that the easiest way to circumvent the argument for any sort of blood atonement is simply to reject the cross, but there are some problems with that (not the least being that we would have to do something with all those crosses on our churches).
Dr. Bell, an ordained elder in the United Methodist Church, instead posits a rather convoluted theory of atonement, which features among other things the assertion that “Christ’s work on the cross is . . . about showing us that God does not demand blood” (substitution upside down). Ultimately, Dr. Bell ends up with another variation on the moral influence theory of the atonement in which Jesus is “faithful to the embodiment of God’s faithfulness to the divine desire for communion.”
If Dr. Bell is right, then the Wesleys, to say nothing of the biblical writers, and evangelical Methodism—the only kind of Methodism there was until, say, the 1920s—have it all wrong. If Dr. Bell is right, then more than 35 Scriptural passages are wrong, including: Matthew 26:28, John 1:29, I John 2:2, and Hebrews 9 and 10.
Moral theories of atonement that “show” us something are quite different from understandings that “affect” something. If atonement is really atonement, then something is “affected” that changes the relationship between God and humanity. That something, from the Methodist perspective (as expressed in the Articles of Religion), is that Christ “truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men.”
From time to time it is good to be reminded that Wesleyan theology is primarily a theology of soteriology (salvation), which has a main focus the cross, and in the cross the sacrifice, and in the sacrifice, the blood. One of the best places to appreciate this is in the hymns.
In Wesley hymns, the blood “pleads,” “avails,” “washes,” “purifies,” “saves,” “cleanses” and is “applied.” In the 80 Wesley hymns originally considered for inclusion in the 1989 hymnal, the word “blood” appears 31 times. Twenty-five of the hymns have a clear reference to the atonement:
“His blood can make the foulest clean; his blood availed for me.” (No. 57) “ . . . can it be that I should gain an interest in the Savior’s blood?” (No. 363) “There for me the Savior stands, shows his wounds and spreads his hands . . . ” (No. 355) “See him set forth before your eyes; behold the bleeding sacrifice . . . ” (No. 616) “‘Tis finished! . . . Accomplished is the sacrifice, the great redeeming work is done.” (No. 282) “Come feel with me his blood applied . . . ” (No. 287)
When Wesleyan theology was refitted for the American frontier, most notably in the revivalists (and their hymns), the references to blood and atonement multiplied. Blood as an expression for the extravagance of grace, “flowed,” was “poured,” “sprinkled” and was found in fountains, rivers and streams. “There Is a Fountain filled with Blood” became hymn No. 1 in the camp meeting spirituals.
Methodists, along with Baptists, were responsible for redefining the word “evangelical” in the “American context. As explained in older dictionaries, evangelical is the form of Protestantism that emphasizes the sinfulness of humanity, the atonement of Christ and salvation by faith, as practiced by Methodists and Baptists.
We should not blame Baptists but Methodists (at least originally) if there was an overemphasis on blood in American religion. Thus, there are more Methodist writers of hymns in the Southern Baptist hymnal than there are Baptists (there are also more Anglican hymn writers than Methodists in the UM Hymnal).
While the Baptists (and much of the rest of the world) sing Methodist atonement hymns, “mainline” denominations do not. A survey of Presbyterian (USA), Episcopal, Disciples, United Church of Canada, and United Church of Christ hymnals reveals that the Methodist emphases on the atonement have been excised. These hymnals are willing to sing about Wesley’s thousand tongues to sing, but every single one of them leaves out the verse about Jesus breaking the power of cancelled sin and blood making the foulest clean.
Nor do they want anything to do with hymns like “Blow Ye the Trumpet Blow” (No. 379), “And Can It Be” or “O Love Divine What Hast Thou Done.”
We have now had one hundred years of the modernist-liberal-progressive deconstruction of Christianity in which blood atonement is at the top of the list of what needs to be discarded for a Christianity facing a new age. Again, the hymnal is revealing. Of 109 hymns that appeared in the 1935 and 1966 Methodist hymnals that were “social gospel” hymns, written to be contemporary and relevant for the new age, but later deleted in the 1989 hymnal (nobody sang them), there was not a single reference to blood or the atonement.
When the apostle Paul reminded the church at Corinth that of first importance in the preaching of the gospel was that “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures” (I Cor. 15:3), he also commented that the preaching of Christ crucified was “folly to Gentiles” (I Cor. 1:23). It seems that today folly still abounds.
As for the United Methodists, whether or not blood atonement is taught in the seminaries or preached in the pulpit, it is still sung in the pews.
Who are United Methodists today, at least as revealed by the hymns they like to sing? Some find meaning in songs like “God of the sparrow, God of the whale” (No. 122). But many more are singing, “What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus” (No. 362).
The Rev. Case is a retired member of the North Indiana (Methodist) Conference and assistant executive director of the Confessing Movement.
OH CTHULU! WE WILL OFFER YOU THE BLOOD OF THESE UNBELIEVERS, THAT THEIR RAW FLESH WILL SATE YOUR ETERNAL HUNGER, AND YOUR VICIOUS WRATH OF ETERNITY BE POURED OUT ON.....
Oh. Oh you meant the Christian God? Oh..... Sorry about that.
Is there a link to Bell’s article?
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.” 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. - Hebrews 9:19-21
The Old Testament required blood sacrifices of unblemished animals. The New Testament requires the blood of Christ. Is there is a Third Testament I am unaware of?
Good tagline!
Not in this original article...I went to look. Guess you’ll have to use titles, author, and Google. If you do get it, will you post it? Thanks.
We should not blame Baptists but Methodists (at least originally) if there was an overemphasis on blood in American religion. Thus, there are more Methodist writers of hymns in the Southern Baptist hymnal than there are Baptists (there are also more Anglican hymn writers than Methodists in the UM Hymnal).
While the Baptists (and much of the rest of the world) sing Methodist atonement hymns, “mainline” denominations do not. A survey of Presbyterian (USA), Episcopal, Disciples, United Church of Canada, and United Church of Christ hymnals reveals that the Methodist emphases on the atonement have been excised. These hymnals are willing to sing about Wesley’s thousand tongues to sing, but every single one of them leaves out the verse about Jesus breaking the power of cancelled sin and blood making the foulest clean.
Ping to read later
oh my
Paul the Apostle knew people like Bell 2000 years ago. He described them as..."Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." - 2 Timothy 3:7
Is God a vampire?
Have you ever hurt anyone badly?
LOL, I did not mean to open that can of worms...
yes He does
Hebrews 9:22 KJV
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Matthew 26:28 KJV
For this is My blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
“Is God a vampire?”
No. Ping to above, since you asked. See above reference as well.
Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Blood cleanses.
One question might be “how does blood cleanse from sin?”
“Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins” sounds pretty definitive on the subject to me.
Sorry to see that you are afflicted with this (i.e., flaky pseudo-theology) as much as we are.
It is the will of God. By His own requirement His Son fulfilled that requirement, pleased to by back that which was lost.
It makes no sense on a human level with worldly reasoning. The Father set the requirement and the Son fulfilled the requirement. Of which sacrificed animals were but a foreshadowing. Since the contract is completed between the Father and the Son, the contract of remission cannot fail.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are Saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
I agree with you.
HOW does shed blood lead to remission of sins?
WHY is shed blood necessary to remit sins?
Leviticus 17:11?
s/b “buy back” - typo
good reference
(for the benefit of those without a Bible handy)
Leviticus 17:11 (King James Version)
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2017:11;&version=9;
As a Chaplain and knew the Word of God you should already know! Ask God! The answer is found in His Word!
“.....when I see the blood , I will pass over you,....” (Exodus 12:13)”For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats.......And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without the shedding of blood is no remission (forgiveness).......It was therefore necessary
that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.” (Hebrews 9:19-28)
What if he's an Atheist or Agnostic??
I’ll think about it once The Temple is rebuilt.
***OH CTHULU! WE WILL OFFER YOU THE BLOOD OF THESE UNBELIEVERS,***
this is what happens when you worship at the alter of H P Lovecraft, one of my favorite authors.
Meek as a lamb, that's led out to theHope that works for Dr. Bellslaughterhousegreen pasture,
Dumb as a sheep, before it'sshearerpastor;His life ran down upon the ground like pouring rain,Hmmmm Hmmm Hmmmm Hmmmm Hmmmm Hmmmm
That we might be born-again!
Our God Reigns!
You did not answer the question.
HOW is a question that asks the process or means by which something is accomplished.
HOW does an antibiotic make a person well?
HOW does blood cleanse from sin? I already know that the bible says it does. Therefore, I believe that it does. What I’m asking you is HOW that it does.
Very good point! But I don’t think any man knows the answer to how blood cleans, But I believe as you do, God says it does, His word says it does and I believe it, not just in spirit and mind, but in experience.
I hope to be as Abraham, “He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised, He was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:20-22)
I certainly do not understand all in: “For He (God) made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we may be the righteousness if God in Him (Jesus). (2 Cor. 5:21)
Nor can I totally understand: “If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth from all(not some) sin. (1 John 1:7)
Also: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins; and to cleanse us from all (not some) unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
Most people know these things; but they have not experienced it in their lives, some have only given mental and intelligent acknowledgement.
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
I would add the following at a minimum:
Heb 10:4 - because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Nu 35:31 - "'Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.
Ps 49:7 - No man can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for him--
Lu 1:35 - The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
Isa 53:12 - Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Mr 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
I would add:
Ro 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 2:11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
Ro 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
Matthew 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. 23 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
In conclusion:
Heb 10: 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38 But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
Blood is the life. Shedding blood is an important event. It signifies how serious the person is in repenting. Without bloodshed, Man tends to not take things seriously. With bloodshed, Man tends to take notice of what's going on.
Keep in mind that God is the Creator. He can do whatever He likes with His creation--much like an artist has complete control over his own work. Since we are made in His image, He knows what will grab our attention, and make us sit up and take notice--our own lives and health.
Our willingness to shed blood is not for His benefit--it's for ours. So that we can demonstrate our seriousness for our repentance.
Again--the above is merely my $.02 worth. Take it or leave it.
I really like that part of what you wrote. It reminds me of Zacheus telling Jesus that if he'd wronged anyone he'd pay them back 3-fold (4-fold?).
It was his effort to pay back for the sin he'd committed and to make the account balance....a recompense for sin.
But, when you take a life, the only recompense would be your own life. And sin leads to death....death entered the world through sin. Therefore, we all stand guilty before God as death-mongers.
How do we pay that back? A life for a life (blood for blood) means that we lose our lives.
And the fact that the blood of bulls and goats really doesn't pay means that they were always there as a picture of a sacrifice to come that would pay...the precious blood of God's own Lamb.
Therefore, it is Justice that must be satisfied, and we are justified through the blood of the Lamb.
That's my $.02 worth.
This is true--and why I am pro-death penalty.
And the fact that the blood of bulls and goats really doesn't pay means that they were always there as a picture of a sacrifice to come that would pay...the precious blood of God's own Lamb.
Yep--OT animal sacrifice was never meant to erase sin--only to push it back. Christ's sacrifice was the only one that could erase sin because He was (is) the only one innocent in Himself to give up His own life and it not count for Himself, but for everyone else.
Animal sacrifice could not do that because animals did not have a say in the event. Christ (and the Father) made that decision freely. Our sin required a blood sacrifice (like in OT times), but this time it could be erased--not merely pushed back.
Thank you so very much for those beautiful Scriptures, dear brother in Christ, and thank you for sharing your insights!
I think that hits on the crux of the matter. The once and eternal sacrifice of the Son, by the Son is the payment for sin.
The concept of "parables" figures prominently in this:
Hbr 9:8 (RSV) By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary is not yet opened as long as the outer tent is still standing
Hbr 9:9 (which is symbolic (Greek, parabolē, a juxtoposition, a placing of one thing in the place of another) the for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,
Hbr 9:10 but deal only with food and drink and various ablutions, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
If you read the entire context of Heb 9 and 10 keeping these three verses in mind, it sort of opens up the doctrine of sacrifices in the Old Testament for our understanding (at least it did for me).
Xzins,
In conjunction with the above, I was curious on your opinion of Rev 5:6 (And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, ), particularly in light of 2 Pet 3:8 (But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.).
Curious to hear...
God is the epitome of Justice as well as the epitome of Mercy. Since these two characteristics can be in conflict with one another, He chose to sacrifice His own Son to satisfy the Justice, and at the same time exhibit Mercy on us.
Rev 5: 6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." 11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" 13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" 14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
The worship of the Lamb and His presence in the middle of the throne is one of the great Trinitarian passages in New Testament Scripture.
The scene picks up again in Rev 7:9 -
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?" 14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
The 2nd part seems to indicate martys for Our Lord, and that truly would span time, as you have indicated.
Amen & Amen!
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” (1 John 5:12)
Here's one from a (PCUSA) Presbyterian Hymnal...
BUT CHRIST THE HEAVENLY LAMB WE BLESS THE LAMB WITH CHEEFUL VOICE"...NOT ALL THE BLOOD OF BEASTS
ON JEWISH ALTARS SLAIN
COULD GIVE THE GUILTY CONSCIENCE PEACE
OR WASH AWAY THE STAIN.
TAKES ALL OUR SINS AWAY
A SACRIFICE OF NOBLER NAME
AND RICHER BLOOD THAN THEY...
AND SING HIS BLEEDING LOVE."
Is Charles Wesley’s “O For a Thousand Tongues” in the PC/USA hymnal. If so, have the lines about blood been edited out?
Just curiosity. Dr Riley Case, as a leader in our confessing movement, is a respected, biblical Christian. I don’t think he’d intentionally misrepresent. Perhaps he was speaking of Wesley hymns.
See #’s 32-42 on this thread.
If true, it certainly would be disturbing. I’ll have to look around.
What if a square is round? What if the color red is blue?
Nonsense, by definition.
Do you have a recent new hymnal that’s just been published?
Interesting thread, thanks for posting it.
"...Christ's blood can make the sinful clean
Christ's blood availed for me."
So I'm not sure what Dr. Case's point is if he's wrong about the Presbyterian church. Maybe others have deleted the reference, but not the Presbyterians. (whew.)
If you’re like the UM’s, then there’s a new hymnal around every corner. I’ll not special plead for Dr Case except to say that as a confessing movement member, some of his closest allies would be like-minded souls in the PCUSA.
It’s possible that he just got it wrong.
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