Posted on 04/18/2009 12:52:40 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
The LDS Church reached a milestone last week when we ordained our first black African general authority. Elder Joseph W. Sitati of Nairobi, Kenya, was admitted to the First Quorum of Seventy.
During General Conference, Sitati was presented for a sustaining vote of the entire church membership, including those of us watching from home with a bag of Doritos. It was such a momentous occasion that I thought a second vote was required.
"All those who can sustain the idea that this sort of thing was about dang time, please manifest by ..."
Sorry. That was irreverent, I know. It's just that I feel personally vindicated. Years ago, I constantly had to defend against intractable church policy a deeply held personal belief -- specifically that Beth Martin in fourth period math was hot.
Beth was also African-American. For a Mormon boy, dating black girls back then was discouraged because -- should the unconscionable happen and we got married-- our male children wouldn't be able to hold the priesthood.
Fellow Mormons weren't the only ones troubled by interracial dating. When word got out about my interest in Beth, her brother and several of his friends punched me goofy after school.
That was California. Growing up Mormon during the black priesthood ban wasn't as big of a problem in Utah where nearly everyone was Flock of Seagulls white.
It was tougher outside of Zion, especially in such places where a Mormon guy might find himself the only Blowfish in a crowd of Hooties.
It happened to me. In the 70s, public opinion regarding the church's policy toward blacks had reached a crisis. There were fiery editorials, angry demonstrations, and lots of name-calling. In the middle of it all, I was hauled off to the Army.
The first day of basic training was straight out of the movie "Stripes." Our platoon gathered for a little personal orientation. We took turns introducing ourselves and where we came from, after which Drill Sgt. Valentine paired us up as "bunk buddies."
Bunk buddies watched out for each other. They trained, ate, slept, pulled guard duty and suffered horribly together. If one bunk buddy screwed up, both paid for it.
When it was my turn, Valentine's eyes actually glowed when he heard the word "Utah." Not only was our drill sergeant extremely African-American, but also a follower of current events. He immediately demanded to know whether I was Mormon.
I confessed that I was. However, before I could add that I wasn't a very good one, Valentine had already shoved me next to a kid from Mississippi.
My new mandatory best friend possessed the general size, hue and temperament of a Cape buffalo. Clearly unhappy with the arrangement, he spent the next several days referring to me as something that was almost certainly a mortal sin.
Cunningham hated me and I was afraid of him. Fortunately, Valentine managed to beat that out of both of us. Within a week, my bunk buddy and I were on speaking terms. By the second, we had each other's backs. Toward the end, our respective colors had run together and become Army green.
There's a lesson here somewhere. If so, maybe we're starting to get it.
Beth was also African-American. For a Mormon boy, dating black girls back then was discouraged because -- should the unconscionable happen and we got married-- our male children wouldn't be able to hold the priesthood.
Forgive me for my ignorance. How does race play a role to begin with? And should they not seek different skin tones as part of their belief?
Interesting piece. How do Mormons reconcile that for so many years their prophets said the black race didn’t have souls, they would not have a nafterlife, because their black skin was teh mark of Cain passed on? But then, in the 70s suddenly they changed their mind? If they were never wrong, how can they do a 180 and still claim to never be wrong?
Just curious, I have always wondered how the LDS leadership got away with this.
Freaking pagans at the SLT asking Mormons, whom they despise, to change.
Same Damn Way the Catholic church can give up the Inquisition.
That proves it then. Your actions today are the result of childhood resentments. You should get counseling instead of taking your tantrums out on the LDS church. It really would lead to a happier and more healthy life. Good luck.
They "got away with this" because they claimed to be (and their followers accepted them as) living prophets who obtained this belief as a direct revelation from God.
Delightsome!
You’re extremely misinformed about the LDS history with Africans and African Americans. The policy has definitely changed (in 1978) but it was never the way you state it.
The LDS church has only relatively recently started actively proseletyzing in Africa. There aren’t that made middle aged and older members who have been in the Church for years—at least that’s my opinion based on the ages of mission presidents and stake presidents I see noted in the Church News. They are a good twenty to thirty years younger than their counterparts in the rest of the world.
General Authorities typically are older men who have a long record of service in the Church. My assumption is that there just aren’t that many men who fit that description yet in Africa.
Curious here .... are there any Blacks in the General Authority in the states???
The lack of souls as doctrine may be incorrect, but the general attitude toward blacks was certainly illustrated in this speech by mormon apostle Mark E. Peterson.
Race Problems - As They Affect The Church, Mark E Peterson
-- LDS (Mormon) Apostle Mark E. Petersen: Race Problems - As They Affect The Church, speaking at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954
"He is the first Black African General Authority of the church and the third General Authority of Black African descent. The others were Elder Helvecio Martins from Brazil who served from April 1990 - September 1995 in the Second Quorum of the Seventy, and Elder Elijah Abel, an African American, who was ordained in 1839 to the Third Quorum of the Seventy."
"Elder Martins served in the Second Quorum of the Seventy from March 31, 1990, to September 30, 1995, serving in the Brazil Area presidency. He was the first General Authority of African descent."
It’s about time for China to have a caucasion leader. While we are at it lets put an amerindian in charge of Japan and a GW Bush in charge of the ACLU. I say we pick some completely inexperienced socialist freshman senator and make him president of the USA.
Why, by golly, because it’s about time.
That is how they get away with it. Unless one puts out an effort to dig beneath the flash and smiles you'd think the LDS is the most infallible and wholesome group ever.
That is how they get away with it, marketing...
I don't know if Secret Agent Man is misinformed about LDS history -- but yes was off-base about LDS theology.
The LDS church has only relatively recently started actively proseletyzing in Africa.
What do you mean "recently" -- over 30 years is beyond "recently."
There aren’t that made middle aged and older members who have been in the Church for years...
If they've been proselytizing in West and South Africa for over 30 years, why wouldn't male converts won over in late 70s & early 80s as in their 20s be middle-aged by now?
...at least that’s my opinion based on the ages of mission presidents and stake presidents I see noted in the Church News. They are a good twenty to thirty years younger than their counterparts in the rest of the world.
That's because "the rest of the world" leadership insists upon men in their 80s, 70s, and 60s!
So are you saying there are/were Blacks in the General Authority in the United States?????
I posted what was in bold-faced below today at another thread -- http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2232256/posts -- a thread about two black Mormons who try to explain away LDS past racism. (I visited these black Mormons' web site to check out their DVD series -- their FAQ section on the site was interesting).
A supposed Mormon asks LDS black rep Marvin Perkins if LDS should make a mea culpa. You can go there yourself to hear the answer, but the most telling part is to hear Perkins say at one point:
"Elder [LDS apostle Bruce R.] McConkie said 'Forget everything that I said that Brigham Young said and that George Q. Cannon said. We spoke with a limited understanding...'"
I looked up the context of the quote Perkins was referencing. Here it is: McConkie wrote: Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
What an interesting response for both Perkins and McConkie: Let's quote an LDS apostle who is supposedly "God's mouthpiece" who now is saying "forget everything that I said" and on top of that "let's forget everything Brigham Young has said," and on top of that, let's forget everything that a first president of the church has said, etc. etc. etc.
And why should LDS do that? From the top down an admission that: "We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge..."
My question is...why limit that acknowledged "limited understanding" + conceded darkness & ignorance to just their positions on black skin? It also applies to who God is; who Jesus is; that sin in the garden wasn't meant to be "celebrated" as an "upward fall" because it supposedly opened the door to godhood; the way of salvation; that exaltation doesn't = godhood; temple activities; genealogy and on and on.
What's also telling is whenever somebody in leadership says "forget everything that I said, or that somebody else in authority said that I cited, etc." I mean, it's that kind of leadership language that got Tricky Dick Nixon impeached. Why? In part, because we had his secretary trying to erase 17 minutes of what Nixon said in a phone convo.
Whenever we have a so-called apostle saying, "Oh, just erase those 17 minutes of what I said about this being God's direct Word on the subject...and while you're at, just erase those 17 hours of what Brigham Young said about this being God's direct Word on the subject...and while you're at, just erase those 17 minutes of what a first president said about this being God's direct Word on the subject," you have a "tricky Dick" incarnation in the form of a Mormon "apostle."
Check the links I posted for more information. Elijah Abel in 1839 was an American
You are misinformed. Although many have speculated on the reasons for not ordaining black men to the priesthood, I have never once heard a Mormon say that black people lack souls or cannot go to heaven.
Growing up in the LDS Church, I was taught that every human being, regardless of race or circumstance, would eventually receive every opportunity for salvation. In the case of black men and the priesthood, it was not a question of never but rather not yet.
Even before the priesthood ban was overturned in 1978, we were proselytizing and baptizing black people. In fact, it was the increase in the numbers of black members in places such as Brazil that led the president of the Church to seek revelation on the matter.
But then, in the 70s suddenly they changed their mind? If they were never wrong, how can they do a 180 and still claim to never be wrong?
Who claims never to be wrong? We do not teach or believe that our leaders are infallible.
I have no idea whether the original priesthood ban was the result of revelation from God or simply a policy that Brigham Young instituted on his own. Either way, most Mormons believe it was God's will that the policy be changed.
Ok did that - all I can get out of it that he was in the GA in Brazil, not the USA ... same with the one from Kenya ... I’m asking are there any Blacks in the GA here in the USA?
The LDS church as a history of racism, particulary against blacks, both in their “scritpures” and by their leaders. Since blacks were denied the “priesthood” (which is necessary for salvation) until 1978, this is a big deal. Here are some quotes from the LDS about blacks and Native Americans.
Jan 23,1852 - Brigham Young instructs Utah Legislature to legalize slavery because “we must believe in slavery.”
Feb 5,1852 - Brigham Young announces policy of denying priesthood to all those black African ancestry, even “if there never was a prophet, or apostle of Jesus Christ spoke it before” because “negroes are the children of old Cain....any man having one drop of the seed of Cain in him cannot hold the priesthood.” Contrary to Joseph Smith’s example in authorizing the ordination of Elijah Abel, this is LDS policy for the next 126 years.
Jan 3,1854 - Brigham Young invites Elijah Ablel, free black and ordained Seventy, to party with 98 other men in Social Hall. Some of these parties are male-only dances.
Aug 20,1859 - Brigham Young regarding slavery: “We consider it of divine institution, and not to be abolished until the curse pronounced on Ham shall have been removed from his descendants.
Sep 7,1859 - Salt Lake City clerk records sale of twenty six year old “negro boy” for $800 to William H. Hooper. Until federal law ends slavery in U.S. Territories in 1862, some African-American slaves are paid as tithing, bought, sold and otherwise treated as chattel in Utah.
Racial Slurs in Mormon Scriptures!
Book of Mormon
1 Nephi 11:13 (Mary) “. . . she was exceedingly fair and white.”
1 Nephi 12:23 (Prophecy of Lamanites after Christ) “. . . became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.”
1 Nephi 13:15 (Gentiles) “. . . they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people [Nephites] before they were slain.”
2 Nephi 5:21 “. . . a sore cursing . . . as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”
2 Nephi 30:6 (Prophecy to Lamanites) “. . . scales of darkness shall begin to fall . . . they shall be a white and delightsome people.” (Changed to pure and delightsome in 1981)
Jacob 3:5 (Lamanites cursed) “. . .whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins. . .”
Jacob 3:8-9 “. . .their skins will be whiter than yours . . . revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins . . .”
Alma 3:6 “. . . skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion. . .”
Alma 3:8 (Cursed) “. . .that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren . . .that they might not mix . . .”
Alma 3:9 “. . . whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.”
Alma 3:14 (Lamanites cursed) “. . . set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed. . .”
Alma 3:19 (Amlicites cursed) “. . . brought upon themselves the curse ...”
Alma 23:18 “. . . [Lamanites] did open a correspondence with them [Nephites] and the curse of God did no more follow them.”
3 Nephi 2:14-16 “. . . Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites . . . became exceedingly fair . . .”
3 Nephi 19:25, 30 (Disciples) “. . . they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness . . . nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof . . . they were white, even as Jesus.”
Mormon 5:15 (Prophecy about Lamanites) “. . .shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us . . .”
Mormon 5:17 “They were once a delightsome people . . .”
Pearl of Great Price
Moses 7:8 “. . . a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan . . .”
Moses 7:12 “. . . Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were [except] the people of Canaan, to repent . . .”
Moses 7:22 “. . . for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them.”
Abraham 1:21 “. . . king of Egypt [Pharaoh] was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.”
Abraham 1:27 “. . . Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood . . .”
Brigham Young was definitely a racist...
BY speaking of Governor Harding of Utah Territory...
“..Man did I say? A thing, I mean - a nigger-worshipper - a black-hearted abolitionist is what he is, ands what he represents; and what i do naturally despise.” (Brigham Young at a meeting in the tabernacle, Greater Salt lake City, Utah Territory, March 3, 1863)
Another interesting exerpt from the same speech...
“In regard to the war now desolating the country, it is but the fulfilment of the prophecies of Joseph Smith, WHICH HE TOLD ME THIRTY YEARS AGO. Brother Joseph said that the South would rise against the North, and the North against the South, and that they would fight until both parties were destroyed; and for my part I give it god speed; for they have spilt the blood of the prophet. (Brigham Young at a meeting in the tabernacle, Greater Salt lake City, Utah Territory, March 3, 1863)
Source: The Mormon prophet and his harem; or, An authentic history of Brigham Young, his numerous wives and children. By Mrs. C. V. Waite ...
Waite, Catharine (Van Valkenburg) Mrs. 1829-
Chicago: J.S. Goodman, and company; Cincinnati, C.F. Vent and company, 1867.
Catharine Waite was the wife of Judge Waite, of the 2nd Judicial district of Utah Territory
“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.
The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.
This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race—that they should be the ‘servant of servants’, and they will be, until that curse is removed.”
Brigham Young-President and second ‘Prophet’ of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.
2 Nephi 5: 21 ‘And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.’
Alma 3: 6 ‘And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.’
August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:
“The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after.”
“He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn’t just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn’t that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage.”
“That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, ‘First we pity, then endure, then embrace’....”
(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)
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1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,
“The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder.”
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We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was ‘revealed’ to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.
According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.
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Sometime before the ‘revelation’ came to chief ‘Prophet’ Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:
“The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.
The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man’s origin, it is the Lord’s doings.”
(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).
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When Mormon ‘Apostle’ Mark E Petersen spoke on ‘Race Problems- As they affect the Church’ at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:
“...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory.”
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When Mormon ‘Prophet’ and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so.”
(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)
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Same Damn Way the Catholic church can give up the Inquisition.
- - - - - - - - - -
So you are saying that blacks were denied the priesthood to protect against heresy?
Interesting.
I wonder how they get away with their creepy rules on which mormon girls and boys get to be married in the big church in Utah...it makes ya sick to learn the rules. Worse...the wedding ritual is something only MAN could come up with, it must make our Lord sad. I don’t think Jesus would have made wine at a mormon wedding.
Non sequitir, SOP for LDS...
I am quite surprised the Catholic church did what it did to survive for so many centuries, in the name of Christ.
Explain how they can pick and choose their friends and we’ll have something that easily explains the evolution of Mormon associations.
"Same Damn Way the Catholic church can give up the Inquisition."
Those of us in denominations/religions which never claimed divine infallibility for mere men tend not to have this kind of problem...
You’re extremely misinformed about the LDS history with Africans and African Americans. The policy has definitely changed (in 1978) but it was never the way you state it.
There is a lot of folklore and misinformation about black members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they [American Indians] became a dark and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations – Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 12:23).At the time the devil was cast out of heaven, there were some spirits that did not know who had authority, whether God or the devil. They consequently did not take a very active part on either side, but rather thought the devil had been abused, . . . These spirits were not considered bad enough to be cast down to hell, and never have bodies; neither were they considered worthy of an honourable body on this earth: . . . But those spirits in heaven that rather lent an influence to the devil, thinking he had a little the best right to govern, but did not take a very active part any way were required to come into the world and take bodies in the accursed lineage of Canaan; and hence the Negro or African race. – Speech of Elder Orson Hyde, delivered before the High Priests' Quorum, in Nauvoo, April 27, 1845, printed by John Taylor, p. 30)
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. – President Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 10:110, March 8, 1863).
And for some reason, I have found lds.org to be a little less than completely forthcoming about the matter.
I recommend you check out these sites for a more complete discussion of the topic of racial bigotry and the Mormon Church:
Mormon Racism
Ten articles by ex-Mormons discussing some of the racial issues facing the LDS movement.
The Curse of Cain? Racism in the Mormon Church
An online book -- well organized and well researched -- containing an in-depth analysis of the issue plus hundreds of supporting citations.
Who claims never to be wrong? We do not teach or believe that our leaders are infallible.
Ahem.
In his February 26, 1980 speech at BYU titled Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet, LDS President Ezra Taft Benson issued the following directive (in part):
FIRST: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the lord in everything.SECOND: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works. (i.e. Mormon Scripture)
THIRD: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
FOURTH: The prophet will never lead the church astray.
FIFTH: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
SIXTH: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the lord," to give us scripture.
NINTH: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
Looks to this engineer like infallibility of its President and Prophet is exactly what the Mormon Church teaches.
placemarker
And this engineer would disagree with you.
The leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have consistently taught that prophets and apostles are fallible.
The first president of the Church, Joseph Smith, wrote that he "visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that 'a prophet is always a prophet'; but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 278.) Joseph Smith also said,
I told them I was but a man, and they must not expect me to be perfect; if they expected perfection from me, I should expect it from them; but if they would bear with my infirmities and the infirmities of the brethren, I would likewise bear with their infirmities ( History of the Church 5:181).Bruce R. McConkie wrote,I do not, nor never have, pretended to be any other than a man 'subject to passions,' and liable, without the assisting grace of the Savior, to deviate from that perfect path in which all men are commanded to walk" ( Latter-day Saints Messenger & Advocate, November 6, 1834).
With all their inspiration and greatness, prophets are yet mortal men with imperfections common to mankind in general. They have their opinions and prejudices and are left to work out their own problems without inspiration in many instances. . . . Thus the opinions and views even of prophets may contain error unless those opinions and views are inspired by the Spirit. Inspired statements are scripture and should be accepted as such. (Mormon Doctrine, 2/e, p. 608. ).
The statement Approaching Mormon Doctrine on the LDS Church website (dated 4 May 2007) reads in part,
Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications.So how do we know when our leaders are inspired? President Lorenzo Snow:
There may be some things that the First Presidency do; that the Apostles do, that cannot for the moment be explained; yet the spirit, the motives that inspire the action can be understood, because each member of the Church has a right to have that measure of the Spirit of God that they can judge as to those who are acting in their interests or otherwise. (Conference Report October 1898, 54.
Brigham Young is quoted as saying,
I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually. (Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt , Vol. 9 p. 150.)
In short, we do not believe that our leaders are always right; nor are we expected to follow them blindly.
“Flock of Seagulls white” ??????????????
You are misinformed. Although many have speculated on the reasons for not ordaining black men to the priesthood, I have never once heard a Mormon say that black people lack souls or cannot go to heaven.
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Comin’ right up...
“You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, New York Herald, May 4, 1855, as cited in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1973, p. 56
“Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them.... Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned...”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 477, 1958; online at http://www.mormonismi.net/artikkelit/...
“When he told Enoch not to preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation.”
- Apostle Mark E. Peterson, “Race Problems – As They Effect the Church,” Address given at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at BYU, August 27, 1954; online at http://www.mormonismi.net/mep1954/
The mark of a black skin would be of great importance to the LDS member for it would be the telltale sign as to who was and who was not qualified for celestial exaltation. In his book The Church and the Negro, Assistant church historian John Lund wrote, “It marked Cain as the father of the Negroid race. It also acted as a sign of protection for Cain and set his seed apart from the rest of Adam’s children so there would be no intermarriage.”
Conference Reports, CR April 1939, Second Day-Morning Meeting: Elder George F. Richards
The Mormon Church
The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints
Racial Slurs in Mormon Scriptures!
Book of Mormon
1 Nephi 11:13 (Mary) “. . . she was exceedingly fair and white.”
1 Nephi 12:23 (Prophecy of Lamanites after Christ) “. . . became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.”
1 Nephi 13:15 (Gentiles) “. . . they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people [Nephites] before they were slain.”
2 Nephi 5:21 “. . . a sore cursing . . . as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”
2 Nephi 30:6 (Prophecy to Lamanites) “. . . scales of darkness shall begin to fall . . . they shall be a white and delightsome people.” (Changed to pure and delightsome in 1981)
Jacob 3:5 (Lamanites cursed) “. . .whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins. . .”
Jacob 3:8-9 “. . .their skins will be whiter than yours . . . revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins . . .”
Alma 3:6 “. . . skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion. . .”
Alma 3:8 (Cursed) “. . .that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren . . .that they might not mix . . .”
Alma 3:9 “. . . whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.”
Alma 3:14 (Lamanites cursed) “. . . set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed. . .”
Alma 3:19 (Amlicites cursed) “. . . brought upon themselves the curse ...”
Alma 23:18 “. . . [Lamanites] did open a correspondence with them [Nephites] and the curse of God did no more follow them.”
3 Nephi 2:14-16 “. . . Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites . . . became exceedingly fair . . .”
3 Nephi 19:25, 30 (Disciples) “. . . they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness . . . nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof . . . they were white, even as Jesus.”
Mormon 5:15 (Prophecy about Lamanites) “. . .shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us . . .”
Mormon 5:17 “They were once a delightsome people . . .”
Pearl of Great Price
Moses 7:8 “. . . a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan . . .”
Moses 7:12 “. . . Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were [except] the people of Canaan, to repent . . .”
Moses 7:22 “. . . for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them.”
Abraham 1:21 “. . . king of Egypt [Pharaoh] was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.”
Abraham 1:27 “. . . Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood . . .”
Nothing that you have quoted either states or implies that black people lack souls, or that that cannot go to heaven. So far as I can tell, those simply are not Mormon doctrines.
Mormon MEN must hold the so called “priesthood”, get their endowments, and got to the temple in order to go to the mormon “heaven”
Since blacks were denied the “priesthood or the endowments or the temples, they were denied the mormon “heaven” along with single white women...
You really think the mormons preached that blacks would be in the mormon “heaven” along with the “worty” white MALES, after spewing that blacks were Cain’s offspring, etc ???
Joseph Smith stated the following:
“For instance, the descendants of Cain cannot cast off their skin of blackness, at once, and immediately, although every soul of them should repent, obey the Gospel, and do right from this day forward. . . . Cain and his posterity must wear the mark, which God put upon them; and his white friends may wash the race of Cain with fuller’s soap every day, they cannot wash away God’s mark; The Lamanites, through transgression, became a loathsome, ignorant and filthy people, and were cursed with a skin of darkness … yet, they have the promise, if they will believe, and work righteousness, that not many generations shall pass away before they shall become a white and delightsome people; but it will take some time to accomplish this at best”
Source: The Latter-Day Saints Millennial Star, vol. 14, p. 418
“I do not believe that the people of the North have any more right to say that the South shall not hold slaves, than the South have to say the North shall.... the first mention we have of slavery is found in the Holy Bible.... And so far from that prediction being averse to the mind of God, it [slavery] remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude.”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 2, p. 438;
“Thirteenth – ‘Are the Mormons abolitionists?’ No, unless delivering the people from priestcraft, and the priests from the power of Satan, should be considered abolition. But we do not believe in setting the negroes free.”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v.3, p. 29;
“You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, New York Herald, May 4, 1855, as cited in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1973, p.
“Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them.... Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned...”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 477, 1958;
For these reasons, Bruce McConkie would write, “The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom…” (Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.).
Not so.
God is no respecter of persons. Every man, woman, and child who has ever lived will receive the opportunity for salvation and exaltation.
As the Book of Mormon says, God "inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Nephi 26:23)
If I am not mistaken, you are a Christian. Do you believe that "all are alike unto God"?
Actually it is the Bible that states...
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Roman 1:16
The Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in Him will never be ashamed.” There is no difference between Jew and Greek, because they all have the same Lord, who gives richly to all who call on Him. Romans 10:12
In Him the distinctions between Jew and Gentile, slave and free man, male and female, disappear; you are all one in Christ Jesus...Galations 3:28
In him there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free person. Instead, the Messiah is all and in all. Colossians 3:11
You asked if I, as a Christian, “believe that “all are alike unto God”?”
Whether I believe that or not is not the subject of the threaD...
It is the ongoing 180 year history of the racism of the mormons that is being discussed here...
I’m not a mormon...
I’m not one of the ones who have hated men and women because of the color of their skin...
and invented doctrines of men to “keep them out” of the motrmon “heaven”
and blamed the same God who chose to create His beloved children with skins of varying degrees of pigmentation with the evil racism that wasd in their own wicked hearts...
That was and is the mormons...
If you dont agree with the racism in mormonism ...
contact a mormon FReeper and tell him or her how you feel...
Question them about their feelings on the mormon history of racism...
CRICKETS
You obviously have no historical knowledge of the Inquisition. The inquisition came out of, and has they same judicial process as the cannonization process. Proving sainthood was very similar to proving orthodoxy versus heresy. It was not a matter of “choosing their friends” it was done to combat the resurgence of heresies against Catholicism in the Later Middle Ages. Do I agree with the Inquisition or its methods? NO. Do I think that it’s attitude was “Christian”? Not really, but I am also not a Catholic. I just study them.
A great book to read on this is “Proving Woman” by Dyan Elliot.
The difference between the inquisition and Mormonism is simple. The Catholic church relies on Tradition AND Scriputre, the LDS consider themselves a “restored” gospel. How can a “restored” gospel hold prejudices that are centuries old? There is no tradition to follow.
You still failed to answer my question. Were blacks denied the priesthood to protect against heresy?
PR and denial are a good combination I guess...
"Salvation" FROM what?
Salvation from sin? "Nope," says the Mormon, "we're already free agents."
Salvation from spiritual deadness? "What's that?" asks the Mormon.
Salvation from bondage to Satan? "You're kidding, right?" says the Mormon. "Doncha know that you, I, Jesus and Lucifer were all spiritual bros of Heavenly Father in the pre-existence? Heavenly Father is everybody's Dad. Beyond that, nope, no children of Lucifer that I know."
Salvation from generational bondage -- original sin? "Oh, we've got that angle covered," says the Mormon. "Jesus' atonement covers Adam's sin. No spiritual effects of that apply anymore. Jesus' atonement allows us all to be resurrected. Hey, just about all of us will be saved already!"
So, tell me, Logo, saved FROM what? Just this earthly soil? That's not what the Bible depicts at all. Please tell us what blacks, whites, you, me are saved from, anyway, from a Mormon perspective?
Saved via the Mormon promise that all will be resurrected? [What the fine print of the "Mormon gospel" doesn't tell you is that...
...(a) there's a "resurrection of damnation" -- and that damnation isn't a "degree of glory." John 5:29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
...and...
...(b) Jesus says in Matt. 7:13-14: ...for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.]
Well, these words of Jesus is not the "Mormon plan of salvation" at all!
We don't hear Jesus' words thru Mormon lips that there's a "resurrection to damnation." Instead, we hear their "false salvation" message that just about all will be resurrected in a degree of glory.
We don't hear Jesus' words thru Mormon lips that the "broadway is destruction" and the "narrow way is life." Instead, we hear their "false salvation" message that just about all will be saved.
HOW LDS IDEOLOGY SKEWS SALVATION BY IGNORING WHAT WE'RE SAVED FROM
(1) The Bible says...
...men are spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1) & in bondage to sin (see Romans 6)...
...Jesus SAVES SOME (not all) from spiritual death & bondage to sin...
...but what does Mormonism convey to natural man? "You're not dead. You're not in spiritual bondage. You have free agency."
(2) The Bible says...
...men are in bondage to Satan -- "the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (1 John 5:19) -- and Paul called Satan the "god of this world." Furthermore, Jesus clarified this in pointing out to the religious legalists of 2,000 years ago that they were children of Satan (see latter part of John 8). Jesus comes to SAVE people from this bondage.
But what does Mormonism convey to natural man? You're God's automatic child of the pre-existence; you're not under Satan's thumb. Logo, men are not naturally God's children - they need to be adopted (Paul's letter to the Romans & letter to the Ephesians stresses this three times). Men need specific authority (based upon reception) to become God's children (John 1:12) -- they are NOT children by pre-existence.
(3) The Bible says...
...that original sin in the garden was a terrible, terrible, horrible thing that separated man from God -- and that it was inspired by Satan. Jesus comes to SAVE us from this generational bondage.
...but what does Mormonism convey to natural man? That Eve's act of betrayal and treachery was an "upward fall" -- something to be "celebrated" because the Serpent was "right" -- "Yup," says the Mormon, "the serpent was right 'cause thru sin and rebelliousness we can have our eyes opened and become gods, after all." So Satanic "inspiration" becomes the Mormon gospel narrative.
So Mormon salvation becomes this grand "works" & "ritualistic" scheme where just about everybody is already guaranteed a passing grade because for the Mormon, salvation is more about...
...real estate turf than dealing with the power of sin, Satan, death, and separation from God...
...a place (three degrees of glory) than God & the Person of Jesus Christ.
How can I prove this? Look @ LDS Doctrine & Covenants 76:112. Joseph Smith made up a new word -- "the telestial kingdom" which he called the lowest degree of salvation glory. Smith taught that telestial kingdom residents will be God's servants, but "where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end".
Only in Mormon thought is living apart from God and Christ "salvation" and "glory!"
So, the only question thereby left for the Mormon to be settled then is will the Mormon god give folks an A, B, or C "degree of glory" grade?
But the true essence of what happened in the garden was not only spiritual death, generational bondage to sin and to Satan, but also outright separation from God. The very word "atonement" was coined to mean "at-one-ment" -- harmony, reconciliation. The hostility of man toward God -- the enmity -- has been bridged by Jesus the WAY (John 14:6).
Our major focus in life isn't about...
...becoming a god
...or realizing our godhood (the Mormon "gospel")
...or figuring out which post-this-life salvific real estate we'll inhabit.
Our major focus is knowing God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. It's not our ritualistic performances tied to a religious structure. It's our relationship with God and Jesus Christ!
Jesus defines this very relational essence as eternal life (John 17:3). And it happens this side of death! LDS claim Jesus' salvation automatically accrues to just about everybody being saved. The Bible talks about salvation not just being future tense -- but present tense. John repeatedly says "he who believe HAS eternal life." (John 3:36) [Doesn't that tell you, Mormon, that "eternal life" is NOT exaltation-unto-godhood?] Salvation doesn't begin in three degrees of glory stardom. We know the Savior NOW in this life! THAT is salvation because HE is salvation!
Which Mormon would like to count the cost of social shunning, family disruption, life upheaval, and receive this salvation now? Who would like to step forward and receive assurance of salvation now?
I will pray for you: "Heavenly Father. You promise in Your word that you will draw men to yourself. Lord Jesus. You promise by your Word that You choose men. They do not choose you. We men do not naturally become yours by being pre-existent or by being born into a Mormon family. Holy Ghost. You promise by your Word that no one claims Lord Jesus except by You. Father, draw LDS men & women to you at this very moment. Jesus, choose LDS men & women as your disciples at this very moment. Holy Ghost, lead men to call Jesus 'Lord' in a new life way at this very moment. Jesus, You promise in Your Word that you came not simply to bring peace, but division. I pray that LDS reading this would fully absorb Your Word from Luke 12:51-53: Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. Jesus, bestow grace, mercy, forgiveness & a saving trust relationship with the full assurance You offer upon the receptive saint now! Give him and her full release & pardon from sin and its power; from religious bondage; from the power of death & Satan. He is free. She is at liberty. In Jesus Name I pray for those you are emboldening now!"
Thanks Colo, for this post.
In Mormonism, “saved” means the same thing as living after the resurrection. All people are “saved” to them. But saved from WHAT? Some are “saved” into eternal death. As you said, that is no salvation.
It seems they are saved into a life of bondage, saved to their own pride earned by their works. The Pharisees were dangerous. Christ pointed this out on more that one occasion. They put burdens on other men that not even they themselves can bear. Christ died to grant us grace from our sins. He let us escape the Pharisees.
Mormonism is Pharisical. Putting burdens on men that Christ has already removed. I wish they could see it, and turn to Jesus Christ.
Colofornian,
Very good post. Unfortunately, logic doesn’t trump feelings
when talking to a mormon. Logic didn’t lead them into the cult.
Logic won’t lead them out. ONLY God can open the eyes of the
blind. In addition to contending earnestly for the faith that
was handed down, we have to remember to pray for those we
contend with - that God will open their eyes to the real Christ. To the real salvation. To the real God. And that He will
set them free from their bondage to dead works and a false
gospel.
Paul’s words to the Galatians are as fresh today as 2 thousand
years ago!
best,
ampu
I can understand why you might not want your own beliefs exposed to scrutiny. That's fine with me; let's confine this to what "Mormons" believe.
Actually it is the Bible that states... For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Roman 1:16)
Very good. The Bible and the Book of Mormon agree on this point. (Which is what I would expect, seeing as both contain the word of God.)
Where we Mormons differ from some other Christians is that we believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is to be preached to every human being. Every person will have the fair opportunity to accept or reject Jesus Christ as their savior.
When we say everyone, we mean everyone. That includes the hundreds of millions of people living today—be they Muslims, Hindus, pagans, atheists, or whatever—who have not yet been taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is why we send missionaries throughout the world to preach and to baptize.
It also includes the hundreds of millions who have lived and died in the past without the knowledge of Christ and his gospel. They must hear the gospel in the spirit world and make covenants to follow Jesus Christ. That is why we build temples.
I’m not a mormon... I’m not one of the ones who have hated men and women because of the color of their skin... and invented doctrines of men to “keep them out” of the motrmon “heaven”
As I have demonstrated, Mormon doctrine does not aim to keep anyone out of heaven. Just the opposite: we believe that salvation through Jesus Christ is offered to all.
That's an easy one to answer. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we are saved from physical death and from sin and the effects of sin.
True to the Faith, the handy little summary of LDS doctrine, notes that the word salvation is used with least six meanings in the scriptures.
1. Salvation from physical death (1 Corinthians 15:22);
2. Salvation from sin (Acts 2:37-38; Alma 11:36-37; Helaman 5;10-11);
3. Being born again (John 3:3, 5; Mosiah 27:25–26; Mosiah 5:5, 7);
4. Salvation from ignorance (D&C 123:12; John 8:12).
5. Salvation from the second death (Alma 12:32; D&C 88:24; D&C 76:31–37; D&C 76:40–45).
6. Eternal life, or exaltation (John 17:3; D&C 131:1–4; 132:21–24).
Excellent post, colo. The LDS use the same words as Christians but have different definitions.
Words like salvation, grace, gospel, sin, eternal life, Heaven, Hell all have very different meanings to the LDS. They weaken concepts like sin and expand concepts like salvation and grace into an almost Universalist definition.
Mormonism is a very “me” centered religion. It is always about “me” and what “I” do and as such encourages pride:
*I* can CHOOSE not to sin (free agency).
*I* can behave perfectly.
*I* belong to “the one true church” (denomination).
*I* am reverent.
*I* can earn my own glory by works.
*I* go to the Temple and help “save” my ancestors, I can be their savior.
*I* can become a god.
*I* follow the prophets.
I,I,I.....
For them it is all about what they can do to BRING GLORY TO THEMSELVES.
Christians, OTOH, seek to bring Glory to God, not ourselves, and we know that aside from Christ we can do nothing. For us, it is all about Christ not ourselves.
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. (I Cor. 10:31).
“You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, New York Herald, May 4, 1855, as cited in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1973, p. 56
“Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them.... Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned...”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 477, 1958; online at http://www.mormonismi.net/artikkelit/...
“When he told Enoch not to preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation.”
- Apostle Mark E. Peterson, “Race Problems – As They Effect the Church,” Address given at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at BYU, August 27, 1954; online at http://www.mormonismi.net/mep1954/
Yet you say:
As I have demonstrated (?), Mormon doctrine does not aim to keep anyone out of heaven. Just the opposite: we believe that salvation through Jesus Christ is offered to all.
And
You are misinformed. Although many have speculated on the reasons for not ordaining black men to the priesthood, I have never once heard a Mormon say that black people lack souls or cannot go to heaven.
The logical disconnect and complete rejection of fact and evidence it takes to be a Mormon just fascinates me...
Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we are saved from physical death
_______________________________________
Joey Smith wasnt saved from physical death...
What was his sin ??? Was he an apostate ???
Brigham Young wasnt saved from physical death...
What was his sin ??? Was he an apostate ???
Hinckley wasnt saved from physical death...
What was his sin ??? Was he an apostate ???
It also includes the hundreds of millions who have lived and died in the past without the knowledge of Christ and his gospel. They must hear the gospel in the spirit world and make covenants to follow Jesus Christ. That is why we build temples.
__________________________________________________
That is not Biblical...
Jeus said if they dont believe they would be damned...
Do you really believe they those “hundreds of millions” who have died and are in Hell would turn down a chance to get ouyt of there ???
No, the Gospel is preached to us while we are alive...
We have a choice to be saved or damned while we still breathe..
Then He said to them, “As you go into all the world, proclaim the Gospel to everyone. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever doesn’t believe will be damned. Mark 16:15, 16
Jesus never told His disciples to go into Hell and preach the Gospel..
After death, it is too late..
There is no salvation for those who rejected Jesus while they lived..
And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:27
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