Posted on 04/04/2009 8:56:46 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Greetings from Orem, Utah, where I'm attending a conference on "Mormonism in the Public Mind" at Utah Valley University. I'm here because I was the keynote speaker yesterday, talking about Mormonism and the media, and I'll have more to say about that, and some of my travels through Mormondom this week, a bit later. But first, some liveblogging.
This morning, a panel of three scholars took a look at Mormonism and politics, trying to extract lessons from three episodes -- the Romney campaign for president, the Proposition 8 campaign in California, and the quixotic campaign of a Utah Valley University professor, an active Mormon, who ran for the state Legislature as a Democrat in one of the most Republican areas of the country.
Boyd Petersen, the program coordinator for Mormon Studies at Utah Valley University, talked about his unsuccessful bid for the Utah Legislature, and what he learned about the close association between Mormons and the Republican Party. "Last year, I did something no sane person would do -- I ran for the state Legislature in Utah County as a Democrat -- one of the reddest county in one of the reddest states.'' Petersen described himself as "a socially conservative Democrat,'' and said his "most radical position" was that he opposed school vouchers. But what's it like to be a Mormon Democrat? This is what Petersen said:
"Many Mormon Democrats, such as me, experience frustration that we're not fully accepted into the Mormon Church tribe...Many of our fellow church members see us as apostates...Utah Mormons still ask the question, 'Can a good Mormon be a Democrat?' At times we progressive Mormons feel like we're not just a different tribe, but we're living on separate planets. The gap that divides us can seem quite unfathomable.'' Petersen argued that the strong association
(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...
....[Morris Thurston, a Mormon legal historian] noted that Brigham Young had supported slavery and opposed interracial relationships, and said, "continuing revelation sometimes results in leaders accepting conduct that earlier leaders have condemned, or condemning conduct that earlier leaders held sacred.''
Everybody’s fool.
Try it out.
From the Christian perspective, I'll offer up this verse:
“Milk before the meat”
I don’t get it. So he’s a ‘’progressive’’ within a 19th Century western created religion which is, in the first place, ‘’progressive’’ from conservative biblical/scriptural Christianity itself?? Is this not like calling an astronaut an extra-terrestrial only after he leaves the spaceship to do a little spacewalking during flight?
I think you skipped a whole lot there.
‘’Christian Progressive = Catholics, Mormons...’’
(Basically anyone who ‘progresses’ or has ‘progressed’ Christian cultures beyond the scriptures.)
Try, THAT one out because it’s much larger than the simple Pro-choice debate.
All this just to make a point that no religion likes lukewarm members. Honestly, it is Saturday (the weekend), and all you have to do is surf the web for obscure Mormon articles? Freaky
Do not use potty language - or references to potty language - on the Religion Forum.
How many closed Mormon devotional threads have you posted or contributed to, Jimmy?
Joseph Smith supported slavery as well.
Speaking of progressive Mormon I think this artlcie will explain that those who like to call themselves that they are not really walking the walking.
Too many LDS are shunning Democrats (Deseret News - Utah) (March 31, 2009)
Every year at election time, the LDS Church sends out an official letter stating that the LDS Church does not support any particular political party. Recently, a letter noted that both parties contained elements in their platforms that were consistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ. I am sad to report that message has been ignored.
http://deseretnews.com/article/print/705294174/Too-many-LDS-are-shunning-Democrats.html
Why is it apparently so easy for Mormons to just write off everybody as "apostates."
Evangelical? (Oh, you're an apostate)
Protestant? (Oh, you're an apostate)
Catholic? (Oh, you're an apostate)
Orthodox? (Oh, you're an apostate)
Mormon Democrat? (Oh, you're an apostate)
Now, it's likely apostates exist from each category -- some more than others -- but Joseph Smith has done more in history to try to "apostatize" the entire world than any other!!!
Joseph Smith supported slavery as well.
***
No Joseph Smith did not support slavery!
Blacks in the Scriptures (DVD)
Marvin Perkins and Darius Gray, Santa Clarita, CA: Blacks in the Scriptures, 2007, DVD
Since the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1830, there have been numerous works attempting to answer the many questions regarding Blacks in the eyes of God. This is the first of such projects in the history of the LDS Church to be based primarily upon the scriptures. Darius Gray and Marvin Perkins are active members of the Church and have utilized the Old Testament, New Testament, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price to bring you this collection of scriptures and history.
Title: Blacks in the Scriptures (DVD)
http://store.fairlds.org/prod/pBITS.html
Why is it apparently so easy for Mormons to just write off everybody as “apostates.”
***
One can really can not be an apostate if one never was converted!
Many can be a followers of Jesus Christ but only if they were converted to the Lord’s Church and than fell away would they be considered an apostate.
Utah Mormons still ask the question, 'Can a good Mormon be a Democrat?'
Well, once upon a time they at least could. Mormons were both Democrat & Republican in their early statehood. But because the Republicans in 1856 set social aim to take on "the twin relics of barbarism" -- polygamy and slavery -- early elected Utah congressman like B.H. Roberts tended Democrat.
Of course, Roberts wasn't seated in Congress in 1898. Why? 'Cause Roberts had taken yet a third wife around 1894 -- ignoring not only federal law but Mormon manifestos. And, of course, grassroots Mormon Utah rewarded this law-breaker by voting him into office!!!
America then put together a couple of dozen banners -- 7 million signatures' worth -- asking Congress to intervene. It did. (It sent Roberts back home)
Mormon marital progressiveness didn't work back in the 1890s...just like it didn't work in the 1880s...or 1870s...or 1860s...or 1850s...or 1840s...
Nor did the theological progressiveness of Joseph Smith in the 1830s and 1840s work, either.
Yes, he did. I have a copy of his book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith right in front of me. Published 1938.
Page 120: "Are the Mormons abolitionists?" No...we do not believe in setting the negroes free."
Later in the book, pp. 269-270 under the sub-heading "Status of the Negro": "Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slaves, mentally and physically." (p. 269)
p. 270: "Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization."
There. Smith not only supported slavery, but the above quotes show your founder and precious "prophet" was racist to the core. He even wrote it into your "Scripture" that the gospel is to be withheld from slaves (D&C 134:12) -- unless, of course, the master approves. (No, not the Master of the Universe, Jesus Christ...but the "mastuh" of slaves...that's who's the "lord" of your gospel -- because he's the one who dictated to Smith who would -- and more importantly, who wouldn't here the Mormon gospel).
In the 40’s and the famous John Dewey who had created the Dewey decimal system for the libraries, was a progressive aka Commumist he was the one who took Character out of the School text Books the McGuffey Readers were replaced with books books that did not talk about God or Character.
Ping
Joseph was not a racist and he also believe where ever a people lived they had to lawful even if it is distateful this way the Lord could work through and soften the hearts of men.
We all have free agency including governments even if they are made up of Christian men were of the people of the Land who were Christain but were not ready to allow a black man to live free.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
D&C 134;12
12 We believe it just to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world; but we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude.
News flash Black were not the only people at that time who were slaves or in servitude.
The Forgotten Slaves: Whites in Servitude in Early America and Industrial Britain
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html
I can only give knowledge that I know of Joseph Smith and that in his heart was no a racist, but some like here to believe the worst or anything that can be used for fodder will run with it, and those people I can not change their minds!
and second hand knowledge is hearsay!.
Truly a strange place for a Boston liberal and yes, another so called progressive to be giving his high minded opinion about such deep matters. He’s deep, really deep you know!
Too bad he missed the truth of the matter; that is many of the conservative Democrats in Utah are really that because they are against the church. Somehow that relationship of Mormons/Republicans causes folks to go berserk.
We returned to Utah from California 10 years ago and were astounded that all the non-Mormons were democrats even though most of them were more conservative than us, if that’s possible. In California they would truly be right wingers. I admit they are elitists in their own right and seem a bit above it all, however they are not liberal nor progressive. And, I might add are very fun to be around. Mormon politicians? Whew!
Resty, you're not the only LDS FREEPER who's tried to "soften" hard-nosed Mormonism on this. So, who are we going to believe when this apologetic tactic is tried -- you? Or Mormon apostles? (Well, I would assume that authority to speak for Mormons rests upon Mormon apostles over a female non-priestholder)
Look up how LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie defined “Christendom” this way: “The term applies to the whole body of supposed Christian believers; as now constituted, this body is properly termed APOSTATE Christendom” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 131).
McConkie added: “A perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom.”. (So, now we're not only "apostates," but "perverted" and "so-called Christians."
So, your leaders say we can't even rightfully call ourselves "Christians," eh?
And, of course, McConkie was simply acting upon what LDS apostles said a century earlier -- the brother of the ancestor of Mitt Romney said: Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon’ whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornication and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these APOSTATE churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of their unholy and impious act” (The Seer, p. 255).
So, Resty. Your leaders not only have called us "apostate," but...
..."the whore of Babylon"...
...denounced by God...
..."corrupted all the earth"...
..."by fornication and wickedness"...
...and if anybody listens to our gospel, they are supposedly "hell"-bound like our ministers are.
Got any other compliments to add to that list, Resty? And why don't we ever hear any grassroots Mormons sharply disagree with these "apostles" who speak on their behalf?
Who paid McConkie's "ministry" expenses...his expensive stipends...his office and keyboard to write these words? You did -- or your parents did.
And, of course, McConkie was simply acting upon what LDS apostles said a century earlier -- the brother of the ancestor of Mitt Romney said: Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon’ whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornication and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these APOSTATE churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of their unholy and impious act” (The Seer, p. 255).
Since this article claimed Iowa was "bigoted" vs. Romney in the primary...I would suggest that Romney's family history was long bigoted and boast much ill-will about Christians in the Midwest long before a few voters reacted to such uninspiring treatment by Mormon leaders.
Mitt's underlying beliefs: Christian, thy name is apostate. Thy name is corrupt. Thy creed - ALL of them -- is/are an abomination before my God. So...you're going to vote for me, right?
(Can you get any more "inspiring" than that?)
LOL!
If we go by your description, "the Lord's church", those who leave mormonism can't rightly be called apostates...because...drum roll here.....the mormon church is NOT the "Lord's church".
That has been the claim of mormonism since Joseph Smith first fabricated it, and there are millions of Christians who scoff at that description of mormonism....and at the claim the mormonism is Christian.
I can claim all day long that I am a six-foot tall Kolobian with green hair and purple eyes, and that is as factual as the claim that mormonism is the "Lord's church" OR Christian.
You must have been in California long enough to forget that Utahns mormons are mormons first and foremost...political party designation aside. I wager that if Harry Reid runs for POTUS, and Salt Lake gives the nod, he will carry Utah overwhelmingly.
PR is a wonderful thing ain’t it. It can make black white and day night quicker than God himself.
SLC mastered it years ago and we see how well they have succeeded...
Brigham Young had supported slavery and opposed interracial relationships...
Joseph Smith supported slavery as well.
________________________________________________
Yes they did...
SO now what some one writes by their own hand is second hand knowledge and hearsay...
Wow, just wow...
Now that would really be a fun thing to watch. Sickening, but really entertaining. Just goes to show you how screwed up our country is.
Read the most important book written in the last twenty years:
I believe Harry is old-timey mormon...you gotta figure that some of that old-time stuff is still in his mind, and he must figure that “if Obama can do it..........”
Those Las Vegas Mormons are really a different bunch. Reminds me of the story line: I lived Two Lives
There is a development here by a group of Mormons from there. This one guy makes Madoff look like a piker. Another one has money hidden all over the off shore. He brags to insiders about his conquests of money deals. (In priesthood meeting no less)
I betcha fastcoyote knows just who you mean!
Many of those statement are from Dorus Grey research!
Sorry for the double post of it was on word and forgot to delete the other one!
Joseph was not a racist and he also believe where ever a people lived they had to lawful even if it is distateful this
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Reaqlly ???
Well he didnt act like he believed that ...
Dorian Grey ???
A potrait of Joey Smith...
Overdose of irony
You know as I think on this the irony grows.
I think of what one of our “opponents” say about the “racist” Baptist.
At least they apologized.
The LDS PR team just edits out the whole sorry affair and “poof” never happened...
The LDS PR Department, only slightly less powerful than God, because we said he could be...
Sorry you are so far behind the time and *I know what you are thinking but much of what has come to light by Brother Dorus Grey is very powerful and he spent many of years in ponder and prayer to bring this knowledge to light.
*RM This is a figure of speech because of the topic in gerneral!
And for anyone to denying their roll in this in days gone by is not being forthright!
This bias has plague all of America not just the LDS members but mainstream as well.
Until the hearts of men were ready to recognized the error of their way the restriction on those of color did exist in the earth.
Bro Dorus Grey bring this out in his work “Blacks in the Scriptures” and “Black in the Bible.”
The Lord never refer to his people by skin color and the defenition of curse has to do with the seperation of man from God.
Darkness associated with sin
Darkness is often associated with sinful behavior in the scriptures. For example, the New Testament employs dualism and records Jesus as having said, “If thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness.”(Matt 6:23)
The Book of Mormon says of the Nephites, “after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.”(1 Nephi 12:23) LDS apologist Professor John Tvedtnes argues that this darkness is a spiritual darkness, which is how it is understood by Mormons.[66] John’s dualism in the Fourth Gospel sets before the reader a simple choice between Jesus or not Jesus, death or life, below or above, and light or darkness, all of which express John’s ‘realised eschatology, in distinction to Paul’s endtimes judgement and apportioning salvation or condemnation.
John intimates that the process is completed the very moment a person chooses Jesus as his own Lord and Saviour, and that is when the individual enjoys the miraculous change receiving Life, Light, and a place in Heaven [above], instead of their opposites, Spiritual Death, a Place in the Darkness, and is consigned Below.
It is proper to say that while both the Bible and the Book of Mormon may be interpreted as saying otherwise, and have been so interpreted by (Latter-day Saint and Mainstream) Christians, there is no reference to skin colour in either book that carries with it any denial of salvation on account of descent or skin tone.
the term black and white has to do with good and evil and nothing with skin color.
Bro Perkins list all of the terms use in the Book of Mormon and shows this none of ever refered to one race.
That is why that DVD Black in the Scriptures is an important pices of work.
http://www.blacksinthescriptures.com/listen.html
If anyone had listen to that thread I posted awhile back on this topic they would have such a deligthful awareness and I love those on the talk they were not bitter and understood it was the scales or vail has to been lifted from the eyes of the white man before more in this arena on earth could move forward, as wll as the man of color so it was with some white who had to be patience with his white brother to wake up!
This understanding is a universal thing that had to take place in the earth. Would also like to clarify that not all of white men was races but like those of color had to wait for those late bloomers!
Was the Lord Church races NO, was some of those in the Church races YES!
Discerment is very important in many areas of life and one should avoid painting with a broad brush.
Just like Elder McConkie when the scales were removed from his eyes than he was able to receive and understand.
“We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness, and all the views and all the thoughts of the past.” ~ Elder McConkie
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Elder McConkie whole statement
There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things.
All I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness, and all the views and all the thoughts of the past.
They don’t matter any more. It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year [1978].
It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the gentiles.5
Last and most important, the defining scripture that is binding on Latter-day Saints says, “he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.”6
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President Hinckley expressed these sentiments in the semi-annual conference a year later:
We must not be partisans of any doctrine of ethnic superiority. We live in a world of diversity. We can and must be respectful toward those with whose teachings we may not agree. We must be willing to defend the rights of others who may become the victims of bigotry.4
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Statements from church leaders
Joseph Smith issued a number of statements stating the church’s position regarding slavery and the abolitionist movement. Concerning American slavery, Smith said “it makes my blood boil within me to reflect upon the injustice, cruelty, and oppression of the rulers of the people,”[19] but preached the importance of upholding the law of the land,[20] which included the institution of slavery. Instead, he proposed a gradual end to slavery by the year 1850 by buying slaves from their slave holders.
He argued that blacks should then be given equal employment opportunities as whites.[21] He believed that given equal chances as whites, blacks would be like whites.[22] In his personal journal, he wrote that the slaves owned by Mormons should be brought “into a free country and set ... free—Educate them and give them equal rights.”[23] Later in his life, living in Illinois and running for the presidency of the United States, Smith wrote a political platform containing a plan to abolish slavery.
Joseph Smith Views of U.S. Government February 7, 1844
During a sermon criticizing the federal government, Young said, “If the Government of the United States, in Congress assembled, had the right to pass an anti-polygamy bill, they had also the right to pass a law that slaves should not be abused as they have been; they had also a right to make a law that negroes should be used like human beings, and not worse than dumb brutes. For their abuse of that race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent.”
Journal of Discourses 10:104–111.
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Now one can choose for their pound of flesh or rejoyce that light on this topic had flooded into the earth and all good people of kindhearts can jump for joy!
After 1978 many are guilty of not reading their scriptures and other things written on this when Bro Grey and Perkins brought this to light it reads completely different.
The ban was a practice and never a doctrine of the Lord if you read again David O McKay statement.
In 1954, Church President David O. McKay taught: “There is not now, and there never has been a doctrine in this church that the negroes are under a divine curse. There is no doctrine in the church of any kind pertaining to the negro. We believe that we have a scriptural precedent for withholding the priesthood from the negro. It is a practice, not a doctrine, and the practice someday will be changed. And that’s all there is to it.’
Sterling M. McMurrin affidavit, March 6, 1979. See David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Greg Prince and William Robert Wright. Quoted by Genesis Group
Now I did the best I can with my weakness in writting and you really need to see the DVD http://www.blacksinthescriptures.com/ it is not only for LDS but mainsteam Blacks would be in for a delightful treat!
I wish I could find that statement of Joseph Smith he spoke of the nobility of the Black man soul it made such an impression on me!
Now if one read this with a heart of a natural man than one really is missing joy!
I love the Lord very much and I love His Chruch and I am just a humble being just like the rest of my sisters and brothers in and out of the Church.
None are with out sin or fall short of the mark!
Yet the Lord is very patience with all of us wait for the scales to drop from some others eyes to be able to receive the fullness of JOY!
I can only give knowledge that I know of Joseph Smith and that in his heart was no a racist,
May I ask HOW you KNOW that? Considering he has been dead almost 165 years.
By his own words NOT someone elses hearsay!
Resty: Many can be a followers of Jesus Christ but only if they were converted to the Lord’s Church and than fell away would they be considered an apostate.
Grey: If we go by your description, “the Lord’s church”, those who leave mormonism can’t rightly be called apostates...because...drum roll here.....the mormon church is NOT the “Lord’s church”.
Oh Goody! I am not, nor will I ever be an apostate. Not that I ever thought I was by leaving the LDS organization and following the Real Jesus Christ. But is is good to have confirmation.
Harry Reid runs for POTUS
Now that would really be a fun thing to watch.
“”I can only give knowledge that I know of Joseph Smith and that in his heart was no a racist”.
So, was Joseph lying when he gave those teachings?
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