Posted on 02/24/2009 4:23:10 PM PST by PAR35
Washington, DC—An Episcopal priest who has received a Buddhist lay ordination has been elected bishop in the Diocese of Northern Michigan. The Rev. Kevin Thew Forrester, who has served in the diocese since 2001, was elected on the first ballot and received 88 percent of the delegate votes.
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Forrester, who has been identified by his former bishop Jim Kelsey as ‘walking the path of Christianity and Zen Buddhism together, is not the first Episcopal clergyman to practice dual faiths. In 2004, Pennsylvania priest Bill Melnyk was revealed to be a druid; while in 2007 Seattle priest Ann Holmes Redding declared that she was simultaneously an Episcopalian and a Muslim.
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(Excerpt) Read more at theird.org ...
Buddhiscipalian ping.
Let’s see... is that “No man can serve two masters..’’; or “What is the sound of one hand clapping?”
It's just a groovy philosophy and set of emotional exercises. By definition, if understood an practiced correctly, it *can't* conflict with any theology (except perhaps one that demands concentration on desire).
This reminds me of two amusing stories, one true, the other a joke:
There was an occasion when Fr. Alexander Schmemann, the noted Orthodox theologian, was walking through the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in the company of an Anglo-Catholic clergyman (back before all the Anglo-Catholics decamped to the ‘Continuing Anglican churches’, or swam the Bosphorus or the Tiber). In one of the niches off the side aisle of the nave, they came upon a statue of the Buddha. Fr. Alexander in his rolling Russian baritone, declared, “Do you know what this is? This is bullsh*t!”
There is also the joke about the old Episcopalian traditionalist (it doesn’t matter if it’s an Anglo-Catholic or a Prayer-Book Society Type), who turns to his wife in the pew as a statue of the Buddha is processed through the church, and says, “So help me, one more think like this, and I’m out of here!”.
That is what I had read as well, Buddhism in a way is no different from practicing The Power of Positive Thinking.
And how can a Buddhist become “ordained”?
“There will be many to accompany this gentleman while he burns in hell for eternity along with his father Satn.”
You’re a very odd duck, and Satn is not how you spell the devil’s name. You are hateful and wrong... wrong... wrong ... wrong.
For every disciple in search of authority, there is someone willing to sell it to him.
If he doesn’t repent that is. The Bishop, not his father the devil.
Can we just Officially finally stop calling Episcopalians ‘Christians’?
You really think this guy is a true Christian? It seems unlikely, to say the least.
Such as Christianity? http://www.desiringgod.org/
Which is also contrary to Christianity.
Then that makes Buddishm incompatible with Christianity. At the heart of Christianity lies the greatest desire of all, the desire for God. And this desire requires the greatest concentration. That concentration is the purpose of Lent, the liturgical season that western Christians begin tomorrow.
A person is perfectly entitled to be a Buddhist if he so chooses. But what he cannot pretend, without engaging in a great illusion, that Buddhism is compatible with Christianity. Buddhists and Christians may live in peace with one another, but they can never live in the same world.
In 2004, Pennsylvania priest Bill Melnyk was revealed to be a druid; while in 2007 Seattle priest Ann Holmes Redding declared that she was simultaneously an Episcopalian and a Muslim.That's fitting, it's simultaneously a church and not.
Well, how about “how to win friends and influence people”?
Heretical as well?
Well, given that I even have some problems with that fine Baptist Sunday School Teacher, Zig Ziglar, I'll admit to some concerns about the book, but it does have some usefulness, and doesn't have the New Age poison that many books of that type have.
May as well close the night with a hornet's nest! I don't have a horse in this race, I'm Catholic.
“Since entering Islam,” she said, “I have been, by my own estimation, a better teacher, a better preacher and a better Christian.”
"I am both Muslim and Christian, just like I'm both an American of African descent and a woman. I'm 100 percent both," Rev. Ann Holmes Redding told the Seattle Times.
I'm speechless again...
Frankly, all non-Catholic religious sects have reduced themselves to an irrelevancy and a laughing stock.
Well, it’s an open thread.
We can turn it into a standard Roman - Protestant slugfest if Catholics want to hijack it. Traditionally, Roman Catholics have refrained from doing so on these threads, since they sense an opportunity to urge Anglo-Catholics to ‘return home’. But if the Vatican has given new instructions, so be it.
Hi grellis, I’m Catholic too!
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.
FReepmail Huber or sionnsar if you want on or off this low-volume ping list.
This list is pinged by Huber and sionnsar.
Resource for Traditional Anglicans: http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com
Humor: The Anglican Blue
Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15
Catholics have always participated and been welcome on these threads. It's one of the few places where Catholics, Orthodox and Calvinists (usually) get along.
In Buddhist usage, Buddhist monks are ‘ordained to the monkhood’. There may be other usages.
Actually, if one makes the Christian distinction between the created and the Uncreated, and realize that all phenomena, the “this-or-that” that Buddhism calls on us to reject are part of the created (including the distinctions between being and nothingness, unity and multiplicity, and indeed between immanence and transcendence), the Buddha’s insights, applied to the created, are quite compatible with following Christ. (Yes, even his attitude toward ‘gods’—it really is irrelevant to our lives whether there are or are not the sort of beings the Hindus call ‘gods’. Either way we should be following Christ.)
The Buddha’s greatest failing was that he did not see through the erroneous Hindu doctrine of reincarnation, and reject it. His understanding of the connection between desire and suffering is echoed by the Fathers of the Church in their discussions of the passions and their relation to sin.
The Buddha and Lao Tsu (and to a lesser extent Zoaraster), along with the neo-Platonists whose use of ‘Logos’ influenced St. John the Theologian to take up and fill the word with a new divinely inspired depth, are worthy of some honor among Christians: before the coming of Christ, without benefit of direct divine revelation, all of them managed to escape to some degree from the mental structures of paganism (the base religious state of Fallen Man) and move, however haltingly, toward the truth. (In Lao Tsu’s case, I would even dare to say toward The Truth. Read the Tao Te Ching with the thought that the Tao is a person. Only one fits: Jesus Christ.)
Still, there is something sad about a purported Christian clergyman not seeing analogous insights, deeper insights by virtue of the benefit of divine revelation, among the Fathers of the Church, and chasing after the Buddha’s outdated and halting attempt. The Desert Fathers in the generation after the persecutions stopped had insights to equal and surpass all the Zen masters—who are the finest Buddhism has to offer, who arose only after centuries of refinement of Buddhist tradition under the influence of Taoism.
In my view, a part of the divide between Buddha and Christ (philosophically speaking) is the idea of Logos, or a human incarnate source of Absolute Truth is not compatible with the thought (for lack of a better term) that undergirds Buddhism.
There are parallel teachings to some extent, as you point out there are eternal truisms, however the idea that there could be a culmination in this world, in the flesh, is not a pillar of Buddhism.
As for the dual cleric a “ordained” Buddhist seems a paradox for him.
“You really think this guy is a true Christian? It seems unlikely, to say the least.”
That is not the point. Buddhism is a cool philosophy that is worth studying and practicing. It is a supplement to the perfection of Christianity. It adds value to this world.
Anyone who claims that one can be Buddhist and a Christian, either doesn’t understand Buddhism or doesn’t understand Christianity.
One of the basic tenets of Buddhism is Samsara.
Samsara is the continuous cycle of birth, decay and death that all beings are engaged in. That Samsara can only be broken once one attains Nirvana.
Christianity denies any notion of reincarnation. Our souls are only returned to corporal form for the Last Judgement.
In Buddhism, the ulitmate goal is to attain Nirvana, which is the state of nothingness, the state of obliteration of self.
In Christianity, the ultimate goal is to be with God for all eternity.
Finally, Buddhism teaches that you can reach Nirvana through your own efforts.
If we can reach Nirvana through our own efforts, then why do we need a Saviour. Then what was the reason for Christ incarnation and his suffering on the cross?
Anyone who believes he cannot learn from other world philosophies and adopt what is good from them, (denying the opportunity of applying them to his life) is an idiot fool that is either a politician, a militant, or a fanatic... or a simple igit retard.
"Work out your own salvation with diligence." - last words of the Buddha
I don't claim to be a Buddhist, but I think there is something to admire in those words.
Buddhists...nor muslims, nor sikhs, nor Hindus did not found the United States. Judeo-Christians did.
Somehow I suspect there’s a difference between taking a few good points from Buddhism while recognizing that the philosophy as a whole is inconsistent with Christianity and receiving a “Buddhist lay ordination,” whatever that is.
LOL! Ain’t it the truth!
The secret vatican decoder ring is glowing green then orange... the decoder key was lost and no one knows what to do next...:-)
Don't get me wrong, I agree with what The Reader David quoted Fr. Schmamann as saying. There is a good deal of (little "t") truth in Zen. T.S. Eliot declared that if he were not a Christian he would have been a Zen Buddhist - and he was not kidding.
That is not to say, however, that there is any way other than the Way, the Truth and the Life.
As far as the pagan Episcopalians go, well, their actions speak for themselves. I left the Episcopal church four years ago and am now very happy as Orthodox.
What a thoughtful post.
Well, with the current Pope appointing Bishops who are actually Catholic, perhaps the decoder ring won’t be as needed in the future.
You said:
Then that makes Buddhism incompatible with Christianity. At the heart of Christianity lies the greatest desire of all, the desire for God. And this desire requires the greatest concentration. That concentration is the purpose of Lent, the liturgical season that western Christians begin tomorrow.
What lies at the heart of Christianity is the peace of knowing Jesus has given us full and unimpeded access to the Father without requiring a priesthood, rituals, good works, or anything other than accepting the free gift of salvation. This is not in the least incompatible with the Eightfold Path, and in fact compliments it perfectly.
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html
You said:
A person is perfectly entitled to be a Buddhist if he so chooses. But what he cannot pretend, without engaging in a great illusion, that Buddhism is compatible with Christianity. Buddhists and Christians may live in peace with one another, but they can never live in the same world.
How ironic. A Buddhist would say that Buddhists and Christians live in the same world, and it is reasonable and correct for them to live in peace. It is only those poor souls who damn themselves with self-inflicted blind obedience to pointless, narrow traditions of men that make peaceful co-existence a challenge instead of the status quo.
I think (if I may be permitted an opinion) that perhaps it would be better if the sane folk ignored the bomb-throwers ... and best if the bomb-throwers ceased throwing bombs.
It should be possible, I think, to have sane discussion of this insane situation WITHOUT resort to the crudity of formal “caucus” or “ecumenical” labels.
But I can’t remember which side you are on, so I don’t know whether to praise the insight of your comment, or flame you.
(Actually, I can tell from your page, but I didn’t want to pass up the chance to use that line. Even so, your comment has merit).
Bosh
How ironic. A Buddhist would say that Buddhists and Christians live in the same world, and it is reasonable and correct for them to live in peace. It is only those poor souls who damn themselves with self-inflicted blind obedience to pointless, narrow traditions of men that make peaceful co-existence a challenge instead of the status quo.
Double bosh.
What lies at the heart of Christianity is the peace of knowing Jesus has given us full and unimpeded access to the Father without requiring a priesthood, rituals, good works, or anything other than accepting the free gift of salvation. This is not in the least incompatible with the Eightfold Path, and in fact compliments it perfectly.
To which you replied:
Bosh
Wow. I guess you're right.
I am happy to see that you acknowledge that I am right. You are coming to your senses. To help you further in your new awareness of the truth, let me quote one of the masters of Christian orthodoxy:
No two ideals could be more opposite than a Christian saint in a Gothic cathedral and a Buddhist saint in a Chinese temple. The opposition exits at every point; but perhaps the shortest statement of it is that the Buddhist saint always has his eyes shut, while the Christian saint always has them very wide open. The Buddhist saint has a sleek and harmonious body, but his eyes are heavy and sealed with sleep. The mediaeval saint's body is wasted to its crazy bones, but his eyes are frightfully alive. There cannot be any real community of spirit between forces that produced symbols so different as that (G.K. Chesterton, Otrhodoxy).I am glad to see that you are beginning to open your eyes and recognized what is right.
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