Posted on 01/20/2009 11:36:14 AM PST by restornu
FAIR 2004 conference talk by Roger Keller, a former Presbyterian minister who converted to the LDS Church, speaks about authority and religion. He speaks about the greatness of the Bible, and the great things about other faiths.
CTR
You PINGing the Christian bashers, Resty ??????
She just didn’t ping the mormon bashing liars.
From the book of mormon apostasy...
“the son of Jarom, down to Mormon, the writer of the last book, who “MANY HUNDERDS OF YEARS AFTER THE COMING OF CHRIST,” gave all these plates to his son Moroni....”
(So Mormon was an APOSTATE ???? So Moroni was an APOSTATE ???)
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Mormons claim that in 1820 God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ visited Joseph Smith and told him that he "must join none" of the churches, "for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof'" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith 2:18-19).
Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt wrote: "The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic Mother of Harlots, and over all her Protestant Daughters;...the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell.. ." (Pamphlets by Orson Pratt, p.112).
The Mormon church makes claims that most other churches would not dare to make. Their third President John Taylor boasted: "...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).
Joseph Fielding Smith, tenth president, maintained that the Mormons "are, notwithstanding our weaknesses, the best people in the world. I do not say this boastingly, for I believe that this truth is evident to all who are willing to observe for themselves. We are morally clean, in every way equal, and in many ways superior to any other people" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, p.236).
In the History of the Church (vol.7, p.287), Brigham Young even claimed that "Every spirit that confesses that Joseph Smith is a Prophet, that he lived and died a Prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true, is of God, and every spirit that does not is of anti-Christ."
• "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" - Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 270
"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels." - Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. , The Elders Journal, v. 1, no. 4, p. 60
"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth." - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 176
• "President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh — even fifty six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182).This prophecy was spoken by FLDS/LDS founder Joseph Smith in 1835, and recorded by Oliver Cowdery. The fifty-six years were passed by 1891.
Deuteronomy 18:22 (King James Version) 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
From the book of mormon apostasy...
“The crucifixion of Christ was announced in the days of Nephi the second, by an earthquake, three days after which, the Lord hiinself descended out of heaven upon one of the chief cities, and exhibited his hands and his feet, with the prints of the nails, where he remained forty days, AND FOUND CHURCHES..”
Where are all these “churches today ???
Did they all APOSTASIZE ?????
Ping
Stay on topic none of what you think was said os in this video!
Roger R. Keller, The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR), 2004.
What do Latter-day Saints mean when claiming that there was an “apostasy” after the death of the New Testament Apostles? Are all other churches wrong and how do Latter-day Saints view the Bible? Why was a restoration needed? Dr. Keller offers some wonderful insights into these questions and many more in his presentation on the Great Apostasy.
The Windows Media Video (WMV) format also contains the presentation, “I Don’t Have a Testimony of the History of the Church” by Davis Bitton
Roger R. Keller is a professor of Church History and Doctrine at Brigham Young University, and a past Richard L. Evans Professor of Religious Understanding. He teaches courses on the religions of the world from a Latter-day Saint perspective. Dr. Keller grew up in Boulder, Colorado, in a Presbyterian home. He received his Bachelors of Music in voice performance from the University of Colorado, his Masters of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary, and his Ph.D. in biblical studies and 20th century Christian Theology from Duke University. He was ordained to the Presbyterian ministry in 1971 and held both teaching and pastoral positions in the years following. In 1982 he was called to be the Senior Pastor of the First Presbyterian Church in Mesa, Arizona, a community founded by the Latter-day Saints. He worked to bring understanding between persons of diverse religious traditions within the community and served on the regional board of the National Conference of Christians and Jews (now the National Conference for Community and Justice). In this latter capacity, he participated in evaluating and condemning anti-Mormon materials as being inaccurate and against the spirit of religious pluralism. As a result of his work with the Mormon community, he and his family became Latter-day Saints in 1986. He began teaching at Brigham Young University in the fall of that year.
Dr. Keller has co-authored a book entitled Religions of the World: A Latter-day Saint View and authored two others—one on interfaith dialogue and the other on the Book of Mormon. In addition, he has written a variety of articles and presented a number of academic papers, many dealing with inter-faith issues. His service to the Church includes Gospel Doctrine Teacher, Scoutmaster, member of two high councils, member of a high priest group leadership, a bishop, and a temple ordinance worker.
Roger Keller, a former Presbyterian minister who converted to the LDS Church
Seems like he’d be an expert on apostasy.
In his own thoughts he just added more or restore what was taken away after the Last apostal was taken from the earth!
In a second visit the angel informed him “that the truth should SPRING OUT OF THE EARTH ;”
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Now to anyone who knows the Bible...
That there is a big fat clue...
That anything coming/springing out of the “earth” would not bve from God...
Because God CURSED the earth/ground etc...
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: CURSED IS THE GROUND FOR THY SAKE; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Now if God said that He CURSED the ground/earth for the sake of man, why would He then turn around and send a BLESSING from that same cursed ground...
God is not confused...
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace..1 Corinthians 14:33
And the cursed ground did not send peace, but sorrow...
And the false prophet Joseph Smith had plans for the sorrow and corruption of others in order to line his own pocket and get some one night stands...
It is probably appropriate that Joseph Smith claimed his book of mormon came out of the ground...
While the good things of God through the centuries have come down from ABOVE....EVERYTIME...
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17
Excuse me ????
Did you say...
“Stay on topic” ?????
What did you mean by that, please ????
none of what you think
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None of my Post # 7 was from “what I think”...
I quoted the BOOK OF MORMON...
Were you mind reading in your post # 9 ?????
Resty, with all due respect, first this is an open thread. Second, the post was in regards to another aspect of the alledged apostasy, but a logical outgrowth of the topic in general.
According to mormon teaching, the Apostle John never died as well as the three Nephi apostles. Therefore the last apostle was never taken from the earth. So what is it Resty - did these apostles die or live?
Resty, the mormons cry for months that nobody wantsd to actually READ the book of mormon...
And then when we do...
???????????????????????
And youse Kitty can haz tu
:)
LOL
I didnt see the pic till I refreshed
:)
Apostasy, mormon style...
“In the year, 18323, being then thirty-one years old, Brigham Young) heard and embraced Mormonism. He was convinced by Elder Samuel H. Smith, brother to the Prophet, Joseph Smith, WHO HAS SINCE APOSTASIZED, and was baptized by Eleazar Miller, now at Salt Lake.” (Pp 136, 137)
“Accordingly, in 1835, on the 14th of February, at Kirtliand, Ohio, Brigham Young, then thirty-four years of age, was ordained one of the newly-organized quorum of the Twelve Apostles; he having been previously designated by a special revelation, that Smith pretended to obtain. Under the hands of the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon, ALL OF WHOM HAVE SUBSEQUENTLY APOSTASIZED, Brigham was ordained and set apart to his office.” (P 137)
“A new revelation was obtained, and Brigham was commanded to makle his home in this State of Missouri. Thomas B. Marsh, THE PRESIDENT OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES, HAD APOSTASIZED, finding Mormonism too bad a faith, or Smith too bad a Prophet.” (P 138)
“Orson Hyde, the present “PRESIDENT OF THE TWELVE,” HAD APOSTASIZED.” (P 139)
“W. W. Phelps, the present Mormon devil, almanac maker, “Brigham’s jester,” etc., had made affidavits against the Church. The Pratts were wavering; Dr. Arvard, a prominent member of the Danite band, had exposed the hidden machinery of Mormonism.” (P 139)(Can you say “APOSTASY” ???)
“Although it is, and always has been, Mormon policy that there should be but one head, and he the all in all of the Church; yet, in April, 1843, Brigham was possessed of influence sufficient to even grapple with Smith, as to the trustworthiness of the Twelve. Smith, who had trained Brigham, had to yield to the pupil he had educated.” (P 140) (Shades of APOSTASY)
“Brigham came hurriedly to Nauvoo-and now came the tug of war-convinced of his right to lead the people. O how easy it is to be convinced of what is to one’s interest! Hie called his quorum and the people together; ran Sidney Rigdon into the earth completely; broke up his organizations; denounced his revelations as from the devil; crushed his influence; cut off himself and adherents; cursed him; “handed him over to the buffetings of Satan for a thousand years,” and was chosen President by an overwhelming majority. Hie did not stay to reason with the minority, but cut them all off at once. The Church was going to ruin; a thousand divisions threatened to tear it piecemeal. Four claimants to Smith’s position appeared, and each had his followers among the people.” (P 141) (APOSTASY CITY)
(John Hyde, Mormonism: its leaders and designs, 1857, Pp 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141)
What did you mean by that, please ????
I know it is hard for some here but at least try to discuss what is being talked about in the video, instead of running off on a personal agenda...
instead of running off on a personal agenda...
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I didnt write the book of mormon...
Joseph Smith did...
You need to address your complaints to him...
I’m told he is a “living prophet”
Personal agenda
So I guess from now on you will give equal credability to former mormons when they present matters pertaining to mormonism.
Martin Harris
Martin Harris was first a Quaker, then a Universalist, next a Restorationist, then a Baptist, next a Presbyterian, and then a Mormon.(Mormonism Unveiled, E. D. Howe, 1834, pp. 260-261) After Martin Harris’ excommunication in 1837, he changed his religion eight more times, going from the Shakers to one Mormon splinter group to the next, and back to the main group in 1842.(Improvement Era, March 1969, p. 63 and Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 164, Brigham Young)
In 1846, (after his excommunication in 1837) Martin Harris was preaching among the Saints in England for the Apostate James J. Strang. (Church Chronology, Andrew Jensen, 1899, p. 31; Millennial Star, vol. 8, Nov. 15, 1846, pp. 124-128.)
In the Elder's Journal for August, 1838, Joseph Smith denounces Martin Harris as "so far beneath contempt that to notice him would be too great a sacrifice for a gentleman to make. The Church exerted some restraint on him, but now he has given loose to all kinds of abominations, lying, cheating, swindling, and all kinds of debauchery."(Gleanings by the Way, J. A. Clark, pp. 256-257)
David Whitmer
During the summer of 1837, while in Kirtland, David Whitmer pledged his new loyalty to a prophetess (as did Martin and Oliver) who used a black seer stone and danced herself into ‘trances.'(Biographical Sketches, Lucy Smith, pp. 211-213) It was the start of the finish for him. It ended in 1847 in his declaration to Oliver that he (Whitmer) was to be the Prophet of the New Church of Christ and Oliver a counsellor.(Letter to Oliver Cowdery, by David Whitmer, Sept. 8, 1847, printed in the "Ensign of Liberty," 5/1848, p. 93; also see ‘Ensign of Liberty,' 8/1849, pp. 101-104) In the meantime, he was excommunicated and roughly put out. His and Oliver's families were, in fact, driven into the streets and robbed by the Mormons while Whitmer and Cowdery were away trying to arrange a place to flee.(John Whitmer's History of the Church, Modern Microfilm, SLC, p. 22) Cursed by leaders such as Sidney Rigdon, David Whitmer was denounced by the Prophet Joseph Smith as a "dumb beast to ride" and "an ass to bray out cursings instead of blessings." (History of the Church, vol. 3, p 228)
Oliver Cowdery
Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated from the Mormon church and joined the Methodist church. However, in 1838 in Kirtland, Oliver confronted Joseph Smith with the charge of adultery with Fanny Alger, and with lying and teaching false doctrines.(Private Letter to Brother, Warren Cowdery, by Oliver Cowdery, Jan. 21, 1838) Cowdery was excommunicated for this and other "crimes."(History of the Church, vol. 3, pp. 16-18) Later, as a Methodist, he denied the Book of Mormon (Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 482 and Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, p 56 and "Oliver Cowdery-The Man Outstanding," Joseph Greehalgh, 1965, p. 28) Cowdery publicly confessed his sorrow and shame for his connection with Mormonism.(The True Origin of The Book of Mormon, Charles Shook, 1914, pp. 58-59) While the Mormon church claims he rejoined them in the fall of 1848, (Historical Record, 1886, vol. 5, p. 201) they also accused him later that year, with trying to "raise up the Kingdom again" with the Apostate, William E. McLellin.(The Mormon frontier, Diary of Hosea Stout, vol. 2, p. 336) Joseph Smith listed Oliver Cowdery as among those, "too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." (History of the Church, vol. 3:232)
This endless childish rant, play on words, lampoons, and being vendictive is behavior that Jesus never taught his true followers!
This endless childish rant, play on words, lampoons, and being vendictive is behavior that Jesus never taught his true followers!
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Source ??????
Scriptures from the TRUE Word of God, The Bible, only, please...
It seems this poster too did not listen to the video just going on their own understanding which has nothing to do with the topic of this thread!
The topic regards the The Apostasy, the post was talking about a component of this alledged apostasy and this is an open thread Resty. Embrace it.
In the Elder’s Journal for August, 1838, Joseph Smith denounces Martin Harris as “so far beneath contempt that to notice him would be too great a sacrifice for a GENTLEMAN to make.
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Well, that’s OK...Joseph Smith was no gentleman...
He was anything but...
And Joseph Smith was an APOSTATE...
Oh, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Yeppers.....
“Orson Pratt says, Joseph was informed, at this point, “that his sins were forgiven,” but Joseph himself seemed not to think this of importance; but both state what was said about the sects. They were all wrong, and Joseph must not join himself to any of them.
Then followed the greatest of all. These “personages” promised that at some future time, “the true doctrine, the fullness of the gospel, should be made known to him.”
BUT HE FELL AWAY AFTER THIS, INTO THE WORLD AGAIN. The heavenly vision, so great in promise, and wonderful in its glory of light, was forgotten. Joseph seems to have gone back to his sheep stealing again. He was human, and had human possibilities, as well as divine. etc”
(Nelson W. Green, Mormonism: its rise, progress, and present condition. Embracing the narrative of Mrs. Mary Ettie V. Smith, of her residence and experience of fifteen years with the Mormons ... together with the speech recently delivered before the “elders” in Utah, by Vice President Schuyler Colfax, and the answer of John Taylor, 1870. P 413)
Are we having fun yet ????
And stayin’ ON TOPIC...
Howya doin’ Resty ????
Like when he tried to join the methodist church and the rest of his family joined the presbyterian church.
BUT HE FELL AWAY AFTER THIS, INTO THE WORLD AGAIN.
That darn peep stone and divination got him busted by the law and convicted of treasure seeking.
Now what would Jesus say to this inveterate rebellious or ignorant soul who can is incapable of having a meaningful diologue!
Joseph seems to have gone back to his sheep stealing again.
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Is sheep stealing a form of APOSTASY ???
In 1914, my grandfather got 6 months for sheep stealing ...
I used to be ashamed of it but its about the worst he did ...
And apparantly he was in “good” company...
:)
Restornu - Post # 29 - This endless childish rant, play on words, lampoons, and being vendictive is behavior that Jesus never taught his true followers!
Restornu - Post # 36 - Now what would Jesus say to this inveterate rebellious or ignorant soul who can is incapable of having a meaningful diologue!
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Source ??????
Source ??????
Scriptures from the TRUE Word of God, The Bible, only, please...
Now what would Jesus say to this inveterate rebellious or ignorant soul who can is incapable of having a meaningful diologue!
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Oh I strongly doubt that Jesus will be talking to Joseph Smith...
I have good reason for believing that my brother Samuel H. Smith, died of poison at Nauvoo, administered by order of Brigham Young and Willard Richards, only a few weeks subsequent to the unlawful murder of my other brothers, Joseph and Hiram Smith, while incarcerated in Carthage jail. Several other persons who were presumed to stand between Brigham Young and the accomplishment of his ambitions and wicked designs, mysteriously disappeared from Nauvoo about the same time, and have never been heard from since.
-SNIP-
I escaped the penalty of the Danite law, which is death; but the Mormons robbed me of all my property -- confiscated everything I possessed, including a library of valuable books; also, valuable manuscripts and records of Church history prepared for the press. One of these manuscripts, Orson Pratt, a leading Danite, published in England, which has since been extensively circulated in Europe and various parts of the United States.
The terrible measures resorted to by the Destroying Angels (Danites) [in exacting] their vengeance upon their foes, should open the eyes of the people of this country, and keep them [on guard] for their safety. These demon Danites are constantly on the alert for their prey.
On conclusion, permit me to say that I am not a Mormon. The treachery, corruption and murderous practices of the leaders of the Mormon Church long since disgusted me with a doctrine which produces such results, and as a matter of course I left the heaven-defying traitors, as every honest man should do, and leave the guilty wretches to suffer the fate which they so richly merit, and which is certain, sooner or later, to overtake them.
NEW YORK TRIBUNE
New York City, Thurs., May 28 1857.
A letter from William Smith, Brother of Joseph the Prophet.
Sounds like there were all kinds of apostasties goin' on back in the early days.
Ah...
They didn't show up for her LAST thread; why would they come to THIS one?
So...
Are you wanting that prize for yourself?
No doubt!!
Here is the LDS Organization® from a BIBLICAL viewpoint:
 2 Corinthians 11:14-15
14. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. Galatians 1:7-10
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. |
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made.He said to the woman, "Did God really say, `You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
We've told her over and OVER how to post a thread that can't be commented on except with a POSITIVE spin for The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints but somehow she keeps getting it BACKWARD!
What can we do NOW???
--MormonDude(Drat! MORE truth that we want to ignore will now be posted again. I think Resty must have converted or sumpthin' secretly...)
You have posted YOUR 'personal' agenda in this thread; so I guess to be fair, you'll have to let US do the same; right?
Just what has been posted that DOESN'T address what was in the video??
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