Posted on 12/22/2008 8:36:36 AM PST by NYer
So yesterday I went to Mass with my wife's family in Philadelphia. Mass was nice except for the one year old in my arms who was the worst baby...evah.
But following the Eucharist, the song was, "Mary, Did you Know?"
Now, I've never given the song a moment's thought. To be honest, I think I'd only heard it once or twice on an Amy Grant Christmas CD. But I'd certainly never heard it before in Mass. My nine year old always wants to sing along in Mass so I quickly found the page for her to read the words. And I read the words over her shoulder.
Now one thing unsettled me from the start which was the questioned ignorance of Mary in the song. Not that I know what Mary knew or didn't know but the question presumes that Mary might have been wandering into this whole Theotokos thing blind. Exactly what knowledge was imparted to her is a mystery but in the Magnificat she does say,
"My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me--holy is his name..Doesn't exactly sound like she's completely clueless does it?
Mary, did you knowNow, according to Catholic doctrine, Mary was born without original sin. Deliverance had already been acquired.
That your baby boy will one day walk on water?
Did you know
That your baby boy will save our sons and daughters?
Did you know
That your baby boy has come to make you new?
This child that you've delivered
Will soon deliver you
It like Matthew’s attitude. He recognizes that most pew Catholics are probably not scrutinizing the theology behind the song while also noting that it is most inappropriate to be sung at a Catholic Mass. Is this song now included in the hymnals?
“Now, according to Catholic doctrine, Mary was born without original sin.”
Well, it’s good then that catholics got to hear the truth.
I doubt Mary fully understood the impact of having Jesus. Jesus saved Mary as well since ALL are with sin.
Rom.3:10
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
The unrighteous with sin, includes Mary.
It is impossible for any mere mortal to be without sin. If it was possible people would not need to Christ to die for them and take their sin away. The wages of sin is death. Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice for ALL sinners.
Argue with God if you disagree.
God cannot lie and doesn't lie.
Man lies ... all the time.
Good grief ... she talks with an Angel, was "overshadowed" by The Most High, bore God Incarnate in her womb ...
She knew better than we can ever hope to (in this world) what the whole business was all about.
The author of that ditty should be slapped in the face with a dead mackerel, for impertinence.
IMHO.
I doubt Mary fully understood the impact of having Jesus. Jesus saved Mary as well since ALL are with sin.
Rom.3:10
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
The unrighteous with sin, includes Mary.
It is impossible for any mere mortal to be without sin. If it was possible people would not need to Christ to die for them and take their sin away. The wages of sin is death. Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice for ALL sinners.
Argue with God if you disagree.
God cannot lie and doesn't lie.
Man lies ... all the time.
Oh, we get to hear the truth, all right.
We don't hear it in that stupid song, though.
Thank you for demonstrating how thoroughly Protestant that song is.
Simple thoughts and words, but profound when you think about them...thanks to Mark Lowry.
Yeah, he shouldn’t have questioned the 4th person of the God-head. Our intercessor who’s statue we bow down to.
Do you worship a 4-person godhead??? Really?
That's ... odd.
I've never encountered such a religion before.
Maybe the point is too subtle for you: the problem is in the tense of the verb. Mary, born without sin, would not BE delivered. but had BEEN delivered.
Of course, then we get into the problem of defining what “delivered” means. One could argue with the author that although she was delivered from sin by being born without original sin, she would be delivered from the effects of sin (death) at the time of her dormition.
I don’t like the song either. Another song that virtually “spews” protestant views is “Amazing Grace,” basically saying that it’s all grace and that God will save a person even if he sins. (wretch like me.)
The words sound to me like they were written to appeal to those who do not know or have no clue as to what Jesus meant to the greater scheme of things, Protesant or otherwise. When the songwriter wrote the song to Mary he was actually writing it to the world. And in response to your comment that it is obviously a Protesant song,Protesants are Christians too.
I just love the song. I can see your point about mass, but this song is all over the radio right now too. It’s making people think about the reason we are celebrating who may not have given it a second thought normally. How could that be a bad thing?
It certainly disses mariolatry. I think the song is overly sentimental and does assume too much ignorance on Mary’s part. Elisabeth says how wonderful Mary is and Mary responds by essentially saying, not me, Jesus. That passage aught to prove Mary wasn’t some ignorant teenager but a devout teenager waiting for the Messiah. She DID know the baby she’d deliver would one day deliver her. Mary said her self, a couple times, that she was not to be venerated.
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It certainly disses mariolatry.
It disses Mary.
I've never encountered real live mariolatry ... some folks seem to enjoy dissing bogeymen. I invite them to take their idiocy and their condescending drivel elsewhere. Does your ecclesial community go in for condescending drivel? If so, you can have 'em.
"Someone left a jesus in the rain,
I don't think that I can take him,
'Cause it took so long to make him..."
etc, etc
The singer should be beheaded and...oops, wrong religion. Sorry. Nevermind.
That's one way of looking at it. However, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception states that Mary was preserved from original sin "in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind." Jesus's saving of mankind, and the merits He (er) merited, had not been done at the time of His birth. Given the temporal fluidity going on with the whole concept, any verb tense, at least in English, is going to fall short.
And on the other point being raised by posters, the further events occurring with Joseph, Mary, and Jesus's other relatives do not, in my opinion, support the contention that a complete timeline of the next 30+ years was presented at the time of the Annunciation.
The key phrase there is "according to Catholic doctrine". There is no support for that doctrine without a convoluted interpretation of scripture, in fact just the opposite,
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3: 23.
I realize that Catholics believe that certain official pronouncements of Popes have equal weight with scripture, but scripture itself warns about adding or taking away from the canonized text.
However, I understand why the phrase you quoted is not suitable for a Catholic Mass, and like you I would find it inappropriate if I were Catholic myself. I have to leave the puter now, so I won't be able to discuss this more today, but I imagine that your thread will have a spirited exchange of views without any further contributions from me.
I don't want to hijack the thread but I have a 16 month old that is making Mass attendance nearly unbearable. We have no babysitting and no cry room at our church. Does anyone have any baby-at-Mass coping skills to pass along?
>> As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: <<
Context PLEASE.
“What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Clearly, when Paul is writing this, he is describing the condition of all men BEFORE THE ADVENT OF CHRIST, and WITHOUT GRACE. In fact, he is quoting the prophet Isaiah, noting that Israel deserves every ounce of the same wrath poured out on other nations. By “all” he means that both Gentile and Jew alike share these characteristics.
The bible says Mary was “full of Grace.” If you assert that the she is part of the subject of that context from Romans 3, you must also assert (God forbid) that she
1. understandeth not
2. seeketh after God not.
3. has gone out of the way,
4. has become unprofitable;
5. doeth no good, no, not one.
6. her throat [were] an open sepulchre;
7. With heir tongues she has used deceit;
8. the poison of asps [is] under her lips:
9. Her mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
10. Her feet [are] swift to shed blood:
11. Destruction and misery [are] in her ways:
12. The way of peace she has not known:
13. There is no fear of God before her eyes.
Now, go read what the bible actually says about Mary:
Hail, most favoured one, the Lord is with thee (already): blessed [art] thou among women,... for thou hast (already) found favour with God. The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
And she is quoted like a prophet, proclaiming in truth:
“My soul doth magnify the Lord!”
but I'd probably be banned ...
Bottle of milk, pretzel sticks.
“I’ve never encountered such a religion before.”
That’s true. Catholics have a lot of God’s/Saints they Worship/Venerate. Not just 4. Even if you don’t worship all those dead people, your Pope does.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Forget Amy Grant or Kenny Rogers!
IMHO, This is the best emotion filled version I’ve ever heard!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0WIJw8JVeU&feature=related
One of the best Christmas Carols ever.
Pray for W, America and Our Troops
It's not a bad thing at all. The 'song' should not be sung in a Catholic Church, especially at Mass. Otherwise, it is quite beautiful and, as you well noted, gets people thinking.
Merry Christmas to you and your family!
“Catholics have a lot of God’s/Saints they Worship/Venerate. Not just 4. Even if you don’t worship all those dead people, your Pope does.”
That thing about bearing false witness, you have an exemption maybe? Or telling flat out lies is a sport you enjoy?
I can't accuse you of slander ... that would be mind reading. It's possible that you simply don't know any better.
But the BIBLE condemns the bearing of false witness ... and gives no excuse for ignorance. The condemnation is absolute.
Your statement, quoted above, is a false witness.
Are you saying it's not a song? I'm confused!
If all have sinned, that means Jesus sinned, but we know Jesus did not sin. Therefore, if Jesus is an exception, Mary can be as well. Also, babies, the mentally retarded, and the senile cannot sin (that is, they are not culpable for their sin).
In Rom. 3:23, Paul means that all people are subject to original sin. Mary was also subject to original sin, but God redeemed her from the moment of her conception. Mary's sinlessness is completely based on the anticipated sacrifice of Jesus Christ. In other words, God let all of us fall into the mud pudddle, and then washed us in baptism. For Mary, God did not let her fall into the mud puddle. But both scenarios are based on Christ's redemption.
Interesting! The song is indeed quite “Protestant.”
What all Protestants need to realize about Catholics is that Catholics do not look to Scripture for final say in doctrine (Protestants definitely do).
Catholics point out that Catholicism existed for several decades before the New Testament was even written.
In fact, Christianity preceded the New Testament and therefore, according to Catholics, the New Testament cannot be and is not the foundation of the faith.
“Maybe the point is too subtle for you:”
Which Point? I’m sure if the “point” you’re talking about requires some intelligence to get its subtlety, I’ll fail. The truth is Mary, like all other humans that have been born since Adam, were, are and will be in need of Christ’s crucifixion. To say otherwise is to adhere to the extra-biblical/ex cathedra doctrine of the Vicar of _________.
I’m sure the writer of the song meant what the Bible says. That ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There are none righteous, no not one. Your Popes through the ages have done you a disservice.
The Magnificat is divinely inspired, and it's clear that someone as clueless as this dumb song makes Mary out to be couldn't have said it.
Matthew is exactly right. Heretical, and profoundly disrespectful to the Blessed Mother.
Gee, there ain't no "spake" in my Bible. Maybe yours is out of date?
Frank, loyal Papist
Merry Christmas to you too!
We're crystal clear that Mary is saved through the sacrifice of her Son. The problem is that the song says "will soon deliver you"; the correct statement would be "has already".
The angel salutes Mary by calling her kecharitomene, which means "already completely graced by a completed action". That's why Jerome translated it "full of grace". That's Scripture, and that's what's authoritative.
It's a song, not a hymn. Is it in the OCP hymnal?
Don’t protestants disbelieve in the doctrine of Original Sin?
But when Catholics claim that Mary was born without original sin, they go wild.
Seems to me like a contradiction.
True. The scare quotes around "song" in your post confused me.
Is it in the OCP hymnal?
I have no idea.
At ‘traditional Mass’ maybe . . .
But when the song was written;
‘This child from your own uterus
Will soon deliver us”
Just didn’t sound right sooooooo,
This child that you’ve delivered
Will soon deliver you
I don't want to get into a battle or start any religious name-calling, but does Catholic doctrine really hold Mary to be sinless? If so, did St Paul forget two words ("except Mary") when he stated unequivocably in Romans 3:23 that "ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"?
Even a paranoid, schizophrenic, alcoholic who couldn't control his libido; Luther, believed in the Immaculate Conception.
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
"Luther's Works" Martin Luther
A careful reading of Luke 1:42 in ANY translation gives two clear yet critical truths about the Blessed Mother:
1. She is blessed AMONG women. This must mean ALL women who EVER lived. Because Eve WAS NOT born into sin and because Eve lived without sin, Mary can ONLY be considered blessed if she was also born free from sin and NEVER sinned in her lifetime.
2. Mary is called “blessed” AND her Son is as well. Because He DOES NOT require any special blessing, the blessing MUST refer to something about His Nature that His mother could share. The ONLY possibility is a sinless nature.
Did he also forget "except Jesus"?
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