Posted on 09/18/2008 1:51:39 PM PDT by NYer
My reader also sends video footage. The sheer goofiness of the celebration is remarkable. Take a look at the hand-clapping Gospel pantomime:
Note! This is the Diocese of Rochester NY, home of Bishop Matthew Clark, fellow seminarian and good friend of Albany NY Bishop Hubbard. No surprises here!
After Rome’s latest comments on ‘traditionalists’ I doubt if anyone there would actually consider anything here as abusive. They favor giving woman more authority in the Church even though woman can’t be ordained. The Novus Ordo is going to be the standard for the foreseeable future and the bishops have the ultimate authority on how to conduct the liturgies in their own jurisdictions.
If anyone thinks Rome will react unfavorably to this they haven’t been paying attention.
BTW, do you have an email address for the Vatican?
MY Catholic church has no kneelers.......in Clark’s diocese.
check this out.
Actually, kneeling on Sundays (except on Pentecost) was prohibited by the First Ecumenical Council (325 AD) which the Catholic Church recognizes as binding. But it wouldn't be the first "binding resolution" that the Church somehow "forgot," or maybe just ignored.
And that goes not only for the Catholic Church but for some Orthodox Churches as well (such as those of the Greek Orthodox Diocese of America).
What does a pastoral administrator do exactly? I have been out looking for another church to continue RCIA. There was a woman that was wearing the same long white robe and even had the same white hair and forgive me, manly haircut as these sisters who participated in last Sunday’s Mass. She stood by the front door and greeted people as we were leaving. There were real sisters there who came for Mass and played the organ, as well. I got the feeling that this one might be too liberal for me. Should I run away quickly?
That isn’t even that bad, at least its not in the round.
I dunno, maybe abuse@vatican.va. :-)
LOL
They run the place, and treat the priest as a capon to be called upon to confect the Eucharist and then return to his cell until the next need of the Eucharist arises.
In principle I don’t have a problem with it. I think Priests have gotten sometimes too much into executive management and too far from prayer and contemplation. I think taking mundane administrative duties off Father’s plate can be a good thing.
I don’t think that’s what these parishes are all about.
I guess it can always be worse...
Are you saying that these women are trying to wriggle their way into being priests?
I really wanted to avoid struggles completely. It’s too much distraction from the only goals that I have.
1. Getting confirmed.
2. Getting into heaven.
Wow. I just realized that these are some pretty humongous goals here. Maybe I should just try to tolerate RCIA from a manly headed “pastoral administrator” first.
The article regarding the French 'traditionalists' was, not surprisingly, twisted out of context. I will try to post a better and more precise explanation tomorrow.
That said, the Vatican has "hefty" dossiers on many 'progressive' bishops but until the respecitve bishops makes a heretical statement, there is little the Vatican can do. I am in the RC Diocese of Albany NY and have witnessed just about every 'novelty' the progressives could develop. When my (now former) pastor attempted to introduce liturgical dance, I fought back. It took an exchange of correspondence with the Diocesan Office for Divine Liturgy to resolve the matter. Citing Sacrosanctum Concilium and even Canon Law, I was able to stop it dead before it had a chance to begin.
The following article provides a clear explanation of 'why' the progressive bishops cannot be removed.
First off ... my condolensces. As for the email address, click the link at the end of the above thread. That will take you to WDTPRS blog and full information on how to contact the Vatican. God speed!
Kosta ... this is a Catholic Caucus thread. Please keep your comments focused on the topic and not on the differences that separate Catholics from Orthodox. FWIW, kneeling and genuflecting is the accepted practice in the West. (AFAIK, the Orthodox Church does not have any Western Churches). Bowing is an eastern practice in both the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches, such as mine. Bowing is also a lot easier on the arthritic knees ;-)
I have arthritic knees and no longer kneel in any church....I miss being able to though.
I still kneel on padded kneelers but I bow rather than genuflect.
In those dioceses such as Rochester and Albany, where the number of candidates for ordination is low (i.e. the (progressive) bishop is seeking 'like minded' individuals), as the aging priests retire, they are replaced with Lay Ecclesial Ministers or Pastoral Administrators (the terms are interchangable), selected by the bishop. Not coincidentally enough, since the 'progressive' bishops believe in but cannot ordain women as priests, they opt to place them in these roles where they are assigned a parish to run. While they cannot administer the Sacraments, they can take on other roles directing religious education, services without a priest, etc. They still need a priest to consecrate a sufficient number of hosts for their weekend 'priestless' services.
Let me reassure you that the 'progressive' bishops are rapidly passing into retirement and being replaced with more solidly orthodox ones. The number of dioceses run by these bishops, are few and far between. Should you encouner one of these parishes, avoid it like the plague.
Church disipline can ALWAYS change - whereas binding doctrine remains binding.
At the time, apparently all were bound to the discipline that kneeling was forbidden.
That discipline is subject to change, as are all disciplines. And it clearly changed centuries ago in the West.
Not sure what point you were tring to make.
Of course, you are wise not to rashly judge a book by its cover.
I have often been wrong about my initial impressions of nuns. Sometimes assuming good things about those who end up pushing heresy, and sometimes assuming bad things about those who faithfully support the magisterium 100%!
Wow. I am getting an education in this place! I have to google new words constantly.
Hope you don’t mind me hanging around in here and asking these dumb questions and thanks to all of you for your advice.
In the This Is Our Faith book, there was a section covering the clergy and their specific tasks. I can’t remember the pastoral administrator being mentioned. There was almost nothing about nuns or how they came by their calling or who “sanctified” them. I asked about that in RCIA and the two men that were there that night acted like it was unimportant and I could hear a cocky attitude in their voices. This might have meant something to me at one time but I’ve been out of high school for 40 years now. But I could see that it was very important to them. I was not politically “in the know” about women wanting a more significant role in the church. But it seems to me now that maybe the men thought that I was being snide. Or maybe they were just jerks.
Maybe the nuns should have their own beautiful little churches in their convents that the people could attend. I would certainly enjoy going to one. One thing I would demand though, no manly haircuts.
Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.
- First Council of Nicea, Canon 20
Kosta, you will note that kneeling is not prohibited; rather prayer is to made to God standing.
In the western Church, the posture of sitting represents attentive listening and meditation, the posture of standing represents respect and honor, and the posture of kneeling represents adoration. It also represents penance (but that meaning comes into play outside of the Mass).
You will note that the priest or bishop does not kneel during any of the prayers at the Mass. He will genuflect (again, as a expression of adoration). You will also note that the congregation does not vocalize any prayers (the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Sanctus, the Pater Noster, the Agnus Dei, etc.) during the Mass, except when standing.
So I do not believe that your characterization is based upon an accurate assessment of the western Liturgy.
For what it's worth.
You seem to know much about the 325 council of nicea. i am interested to hear your take on the changing of the baptism at that time also. Just want to pick your brain...
What changes are these?
Canon 2 talks about not immediately ordaining one who was just baptized. That is straight out of scripture.
Canon 19 talks about re-baptizing "Paulianists" -- an Arian sect that was active at the time. Being Arian, Paulianist baptism would not have been a Trinitarian baptism and therefore would have been invalid.
The basic patristic document (outside of the Scriptures, of course) that deals with the doctrine and practice of baptism wasn't this council's canons, it was the Didache (Chapter 7), from a couple of hundred years earlier.
If I'm missing something that you're hinting toward, please let me know...but I don't see any type of change mandated by this council.
i want to continue this but my comp access went down and im on cell phone. I will respond tomorrow. Thank you for your response!
Apologies. I didn't notice. However, I was referring to something that was decided by an ecumneical council of the undivided Church.
True, but this one was a decision of an Ecumenical Council. Ecumenical Council prclamations are considered inspired and therefore infallible.
In 325 AD the churches had no pews (most Orthodox churches don't have pews to this day). People were either standing or kneeling.
In a Sunday mass, after the Communion, Catholics kneel and pray.
It it entirely possible that after the Schism the west changed the rules. If so, I would be curious when.
If your locale is still Texas, where in Texas are you?
There are more than a few Catholics on FR who are in TX, and could possibly suggest a Parish to you.
I’m in Corpus Christi area with a junky car and small gas budget.
True. In fact, most Western churches did not have pews in them until the past few hundred years (I never saw a Western church in Europe constructed prior to Trent that had pews).
In a Sunday mass, after the Communion, Catholics kneel and pray.
A couple of points:
It it entirely possible that after the Schism the west changed the rules. If so, I would be curious when.
It is entirely possible. And I fully recognize that the kneeling posture is not at all used in the Eastern Liturgies, to this day. The point I am getting at is that active, liturgical prayer is still done in a manner compliant with the Council: when the celebrant prays, he does so standing. When the congregation liturgically prays, they do so in the standing posture, as well.
Perhaps rather than taking a 20 lb sledge to a a shadow of a gnat, we ought to concentrate on something a little more weighty.
No ... of course not ... because 'pastoral administrators' are not clergy. You can learn more about this "call to serve" from the bishops web site:
Co-Workers in the Vineyard of the Lord: History and Background
There was almost nothing about nuns or how they came by their calling or who “sanctified” them.
That would be a different calling ;-) A good explanation of this may be found here. Religious orders (be they male or female) are usually founded on the charism of a particular saint. Many of would highly recommend Raymond Arroyo's book about Mother Angelica
From Publishers Weekly
In a comprehensive and engaging biography, Arroyo chronicles the life and faith of Mother Angelica, the nun who almost singlehandedly created a religious media empire through her Catholic cable network, EWTN. Born in 1923 to unstable parents (a cruel father who later abandoned the family and a chronically depressed mother), Mother Angelica—then called Rita Rizzo—is an unlikely person to have redrawn the landscape of Catholicism in America. The strength of Arroyo's biography is what he calls his "unfettered access" to records, associates and the nun herself; as an anchor and news director for EWTN, he's known her for years. But this is not purely a sweetness-and-light portrait; she comes across as outspoken and sometimes hot tempered, arguing with cardinals and even hurling a knife at a sharp-tongued uncle when she was 17. Overall, Arroyo gives a strong sense of the woman who enrages liberals, delights conservatives, but is respected by almost all Catholics.
Not only will you have an enjoyable read but you will gain good insight into religious life.
As for what draws someone to religious life - the best reply is "Our Lord". Take for example Rosalind Moss who was raised a conservative Jew. She heard about Christ when she was 31 and eventually joined an Evangelical Church. In 1995, she was received into the Catholic Church. Earlier this year, she announced that she had founded a religious order. Here are those articles.
From Judaism to Catholicism: A Conversion Story
EWTN TV and radio host announces formation of new religious community .
Maybe the nuns should have their own beautiful little churches in their convents that the people could attend. I would certainly enjoy going to one. One thing I would demand though, no manly haircuts.
Most religious orders have chapels where priests come to say Mass. And some are open to the public. As for the 'manly' haircuts, here again, not surprisinly, those communities that abandoned the habit, have shriveled up like prunes. The new communities are blossoming like roses in the desert. Mother Angelica's nuns have been invited to expand into 2 other states. Phoenix AZ Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted provided them with a home where they could reside and pray for his diocese. Here is their web site:
Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration of Our Lady of Solitude Monastery
This beautiful group of 5 have just arrived in San Antonio, TX. will be taking up residence in our St. Joseph Parish House.
They arrived on August 11 - the feast of St. Clare!!
I know of Our Lady of Perpetual Help and St. Anselm Catholic Community (Anglican Use). If either of them is not too far, you might wish to check them out.
Also, any Parish in Corpus whose Priest is a member of SOLT is probably devoid of any weirdness.
I had a manly headed Pastoral Administrator teach my RCIA, and I was OUTTA there as soon as I got confirmed. It’s too bad because it was a beautiful church, and they do the liturgy with some real fervor (if a little too much Pan de Vida kinda stuff.)
My main problem was that there were simply too many male homosexuals, I won’t say ‘cruising’, but definitely congregated.
You could do the “little curtsey.”
Thanks sockmonkey.
I went up to the SOLT website and it looks pretty good. Our Lady Of Perpetual Help is not far and I haven’t been to it yet. Are you in this area, as well?
LOL
I should note the parish is in the Montrose district of Houston, so it is their geographical parish, and it’s understandable that the church would minister to them. I’ve just found it harder and harder to associate with them without thinking about what they DO.
No, but I've met Msgr. Heras from OLPH at EWTN. I know Father Hart, and some of the SOLT Priests because of St. Anselm's-it's an Anglican Use Community, and I attend an Anglican Use Parish in the Archdiocese of San Antonio.
However, the spirit of the pronouncement doesn't apply to the legalities and "loopholes," considering that:
(2) Sunday is the Day of Resurrection, and we, through the Sacrament of Baptism, having died in our sins and risen in Chirst, stand. So, attentively sitting was not even contemplated, the sick and the old notwithstanding (we have chars for them along the walls of the church).
Perhaps rather than taking a 20 lb sledge to a a shadow of a gnat, we ought to concentrate on something a little more weighty.
Certainly, and this being a Catholic Caucus, I apologize for making what may be perceived as critical remarks. I was merely trying to point to a mindset that is at the core of the East-West—shall we say—misunderstanding. I wouldn't call that a shaddow of a gnat. It's a wall that has kept our Churches from intercommunion for almost 1,000 years. A 20-lb sledge hammer wouldn't even make a dent in it.
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