Posted on 07/08/2008 11:34:30 AM PDT by MeanWestTexan
Ba'alei Teshuva --- sometimes translated to mean "penitents," but, more commonly used to refer to Jews from secular backgrounds who have become religiously observant, often hareidi or ultra-Orthodox --- have been held in high regard by Jewish tradition.
[Snip]
Try telling that to Avigal Meizlik who recently wrote a controversial article in Mishpascha, a highly regarded English haredi magazine about "issues" BTs face when they try to affilliate with various hareidi communities in Israel. According to Ms. Meizlik, when it comes to register their children in mainstream hareidi schools, BT's are rejected, finding, to their dismay, that they were never part of their chosen community after all.
(Excerpt) Read more at jewishvoiceandopinion.com ...
This particular article hit a chord with me, as I (Sephardic) tried and failed to be accepted in a Haredi community and eventually left and married outside the the Jewish faith (and am probably happier, as that was pretty clearly G-d's path for me).
May or may not be ping worthy.
I’ve always felt that some of these groups were the Jewish equivalent of certain Catholic traditionalist groups. That is, they’re extremely orthodox in all that matters...but they’re sunk in pride and arrogance as a result. I think Jesus had a few choice words for people like that!
My husband and I are both BT’s and yet my sons married into very prominent Hasidic families.
I don’t think airing internal grievances is an appropriate topic for FR.
“I don’t think airing internal grievances is an appropriate topic for FR.”
Fair enough; the article is posted, however, in the Jewish sub-forum.
Aren’t some of the Hassidic sects enemies or rivals with each other, even if they are all Ashkenazi? People (all people) do love their little cliques sometimes.
Rivals, perhaps; “enemies” is probably too strong a word.
The real issue comes about with finding a suitable marriage for young men; women, not so much of a problem, I think.
“I don’t think airing internal grievances is an appropriate topic for FR.”
I intially agreed with you and regretted the post.
Then I thought about it some more and realized that, no, this kind of thing is shameful and wrong, and if it takes fear of public airing of grievances to limit such acts in the future, the more the better.
Why not just be in a Sephardic community? I don’t have anything against Haredim, but their traditions are not my traditions & I prefer to be with my own people.
Being Sephardic by way of Mexico, many Sephardim (such as yourself, I bet, unless you are my cousin) are Mizrahi, which is a bit different (and equally closed), in yet another way.
The entire issue is on my mind because Mrs. MWT (who is an Israeli citizen and listed as Jewish (and Hitler sure would have killed her, or tried), but is not) and I are thinking about going back to Israel to live and take care of her parents.
We have several young daughters, and don’t know if they will fit in, or if we want them to fit in.
Aren't they worried about harming their gene pool?
Nah I’m not Sephardic & I don’t call myself that. But Sephardim have their own communities, so why not hang out with them instead of with people of other customs? Especially if they’re going to give you attitude about it.
You will find this type of snobbery among any group of people. I have seen it among Reform Jews, even though they claim to be welcoming of converts, they can never stop reminding a convert that he or she wasn’t born Jewish. At least this is how it was 30 years ago, today I think there are more converts than “hereditary” Jews in the Reform.
“Aren’t they worried about harming their gene pool?”
Hasn’t hurt Jews yet. Indeed, standardized test scores would indicate the contrary.
Because it's important to raise your family without a conflict of faith.
This may be too personal a question for you to consider objectively, but do you think that who Hitler would or would not have killed is an appropriate criteria for determining who is Jewish?
*******************
Good heavens. I would hope not.
“so why not hang out with them instead of with people of other customs?”
For one, I think it has to do with an idealized youthful idea, growing up very much the only Jewish kid in a small Western town, going east for school and even Israel (very much at my insistence), and assuming that FINALLY I would be among fellow Jews and could be myself. And being sorely disappointed.
For two, there candidly just weren’t a bountiful number of Sephardic (by which I mean Iberian pennisula, not just ritual) Jews left, most having been successfully killed or forcibly converted.
That said, it’s more on my mind as an issue of how my daughters would grow up in Israel.
No, of course not.
I am talking about her ID card for the secular Israeli government.
Google *Jewish Diseases* and get back to me. Also check out some of the problems with the FLDS.
Google *Dor Yeshorim* and get back to me.
Also check out some of the problems with the FLDS.
Jews do not practice polygamy.
To clarify futher, Mrs. MWT has 3 Jewish grandparents, but not the one that counts (although her mother’s mother had a Reform coversion in Germany -— circa 1933; bad timing, which along with a disapproved marriage earned her a trip to a lovely summer camp).
The tension between being Jewish ethnically and socially -— and for the Law of Return (and Hitler) —— and being Jewish under the Law is very much part of our consternation.
Have those practices been discontinued?
Both groups practice cousin/cousin and aunt/nephew, uncle/niece marriage. Do they not?
“I understand what you’re saying but, centuries of marrying within a very small gene pool has left Jews with the highest rate of genetic abnormalities of any peoples.”
While there are certainly some recurring problems (Tay-Sachs among them) in Jewish populations, your proposition that Jews have the “highest rate of genetic abnormalities of any peoples” is simply false.
I don't know about Mormons but Jews certainly do not practice those latter two (and I doubt Mormons do, either). Those are considered incest in Torah. Muslims, OTOH, might practice all three w/ gusto.
http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec18/ch257/ch257b.html
This chart appears to show more testable genetic diseases found in Ashkenazi Jewish communities than in other ethnic communities.
No.
“Both groups practice cousin/cousin and aunt/nephew, uncle/niece marriage. Do they not?”
Not really. One of the requirements of Judaism is to follow the law of the land. It’s illegal to have a uncle/niece marriage in all 50 states of the USA, so it is forbidden. Similiarly with first cousins (although some states permit this). Second cousins? Probably OK. Not sure I’d know my second cousins from Eve.
Well, their genetic roots have been studied more than anyone else, for good and bad, so there are more tests.
Why do Jews need Dor Yeshorim if it's not a great problem and have some of the older practices been discontinued in order to help the problem?
They are forbidden in the Koran. FLDS isn’t really Mormon. These practices are against the law in the US but, what about in Israel and other countries?
You may recall that recently a lot of goy got together and burned most of us up in ovens on the basis of eugenics.
In addition to making Jews sensitive and studying genetics, it cut down on the dating pool.
Further, it is also not “older practices” — it was just not “forbidden” -— medieval Jewish people were pretty much as stupid and backwards and medieval goy.
Go look at the various royal families of Europe if you want to see inbreeding.
“and medieval” = “as medieval”
Cousin/cousin marriages are NOT forbidden in the Koran. The UK is having a serious increase in birth defects because Pakis insist on marrying their children off to cousins.
Years ago I read a book called "The Tentative Pregnancy" by Barbara Katz Rothman, a thoughtful critique of prenatal diagnosis and selective abortion. I remember she mentioned in the Introduction that her own mother worked as a nurse decades and decades ago in a ward for kids who had Tay-Sachs. She pointed out that such wards no longer exist, and that therefore there has been virtually no research on actual treatment or therapeutic interventions that would benefit these kids. That is, when killing (abortion) becomes a "solution," it quickly becomes "the only solution."
Bless Dor Yeshorim.
All my kids registered with Dor Yeshorim before they started dating. The system is “double-blind” which means they match control numbers ONLY and use no other criteria such as SS number (the system is international, and only US residents have SS numbers).
Of course in order for the system to work, you have to match control numbers before going on the first date, otherwise there is an emotional risk.
My son registered when he was a teenager, but lost his control number, so when he started dating he had to be re-tested.
You wrote:
“Jews do not practice polygamy.”
Not now, but seven decades ago it still happened in the Middle East among some Jews. It also used to happen - very rarely - among Jews in the Americas a few centuries ago.
Polygamy was outlawed for Ashkenazi Jews 1000 years ago. Although not specifically outlawed for Sephardic Jews (living in Muslim countries) but was extremely rare.
What evidence do you have that it was ever practiced by Jews in America?
Cool.
You wrote:
“What evidence do you have that it was ever practiced by Jews in America?”
Did you even try google?
“Nevertheless, such connections did occur within the Sephardic group, and there were even a few rare cases of polygamy, usually a man who had taken to wife two sisters, one of whom might be tubercular or deformed. Such unorthodox alliances were often arranged to keep property intact—as was common in Christian marriages, too—as well as to maintain blood lines, sometimes with the public justification of heredity. The secret Jews always regarded themselves as hidalgos, Spanish aristocrats of pure blood line.” - Sephardim in the Americas: Studies in Culture and History. Contributors: Martin A. Cohen - editor, Abraham J. Peck - editor. Publisher: University of Alabama. Place of Publication: Tuscaloosa, AL. Publication Year: 1993. Page Number: 439.
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