Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
And that is consistent with what we hear around these parts. I'm going to see if I can find the companion metioned above piece for posting.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.
29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
INDEED.
Nice to see another factually accurate and solidly Biblical post.
I hope to post Acts 15 with some commentary on the Mary thread shortly.
Here that? We MAY be saved...
What does the Catholic Church mean by the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation"
Christian, I Presume? (Salvation) [Ecumenical]
Rock Solid: The Salvation History of the Catholic Church [Ecumenical]
Getting in Touch With Reality (good character and behavior as a ticket to Heaven)
The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Extra ecclesiam - Outside the Church there is no salvation.
Is Faith Necessary for Salvation? (Part 2)
Good Will Equals Salvation? (Did the pope say non christians could be saved - part 1)
The Experience of the Salvation of Christ Today
Thanks for the usual precut spam. I’ll pass. My cholesterol is through the roof.
read later
**My cholesterol is through the roof.**
Sorry about that. Gotta stop all that eating and drinking, huh?
I’m surprised at your sarcasm. I have been thanked and thanked for compiling these lists. So many people have learned from them.
You DON’T have to learn, if that is YOUR choice.
I’ve always told my children that when I stop learning, I will be in a grave.
Only to to the glory of God.
I think the Council of Trent on this was clear on this:
CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
BUT
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
Thank you for all of the great links! I will read all of them at my leisure.
Our foundation is the Bible, nothing more, nothing less. The verses on faith are plentiful and self explanatory. The thief on the cross was nailed there and died there unable to do anything but proclaim Jesus was who He said He was. Jesus made it plain He would be with Him. Our works are an evidence of our salvation, but certainly not required. If a mafia don gives money to the poor, it isn't going to wash the blood from his hands. Is it impossible for a bed ridden quadriplegic to be saved because he is unable to move? We are saved by faith, period!
Jesus painted a Spiritual picture of salvation by healing sick people. He didn't just heal their malady, but the sickness was sin and their faith was their cure. He said as He healed them, "By your faith you are healed". If Jesus was interested in healing sickness, He could have easily said a Word and all mankind would be healed. He was making a point to the people that came to Him for their healing. Their real sickness was sin and He is the physician. They did nothing more than believe to gain salvation. It was only natural. however to tell the crowds who it was that healed them and bring others to the Master. Once you are saved, you should be "born again" and never are the same. Your actions should count as "works" for God. If works had anything to do with salvation then a Muslim could be saved by giving oil money to the poor. Without Jesus he may as well throw it in a hole.
Salvation it is a Shame nobody from the Baptist Group answered Me how the Baptist were Following the Truth when for 2 decades they supported abortion!5th Commandment was my Clue!!haha
You and I know that to get to heaven it will take more than Faith and even Good Works...to get to heaven...Beiing in a state of Grace with no Mortal Sins..is the Clincher.
They Mock Fasting that was Requested by our Lady almost everywhere there was an apparition and in Medjugorje they said the town is without sin the way people are living fasting twice a week.
I wish I could Introduce these Chaps to Scott Hahn.. and they Could come away understanding and fulfilling Christ wishes in a More Complete Manner.Everything they Mock would bring them closer to Christ it is sad they are missing the beauty of Christ Church.
I see these same People around Philly dropping raunchy Leaflets Insulting the Church ,Mary and the Pope and then judging my Salvation.. I can only say they know not what they do! I am Off to the Border Crossing!
Keep up the Fight!!
Keep up the good work, Salvation. Who knows how many hearts have been touched by your lists?
Matt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Rev 22:12 And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Jesus' words, not Pauls'
He was taught wrong or remembers wrong. Not that it matters. Non Catholics spend way to much time worrying about Catholics. It must be a sad thing to have constantly pick at someone else in order to feel better about themselves.
1 Pe 3:21 (RSV) Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Rom 6:4 (RSV) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Catholics are being saved:
Phil 2:12 (RSV) Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
2Cor 1:5-7 (RSV) For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. Our hope for you is unshaken; for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort.
Catholics live in hope that we will be saved:
Rom 5:9-10 (RSV) Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
1 Cor 3:11-15 (RSV) For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Thes 5:8-9 (RSV) But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
In other words, rather than seeing salvation as a singular event, we see it as a process that begins with baptism and ends with the particular judgement.
I don't know if it's true that the Baptists ever supported abortion, but if at some point in the past they did, they certainly have repented by now.
Repentence is what it's all about. :-)
Therein lies the problem. You and your sources/cohorts don't understand what the teaching of the Church is.
Maybe if Seinfeld had devoted a few episodes to catechesis you and your sources/cohorts wouldn't be so clueless.
And that is consistent with what we hear around these parts.
Yes, that is exactly what I hear from both RCC and Orthodox Freepers. Some have even admitted to me the term "works-based salvation", as if that's what the Bible taught. I think the author here was both fair and accurate. Thanks for posting. :)
Who is doing the fighting for you?
You?
If so then the battle is already lost.
If it is Christ who is doing the fighting for you, then the battle is already won.
This writer, like many Protestants, confuses justification with salvation. We in no way merit justification, which is when God infuses His grace into us.
We do are not justified by our works. However, salvation is the attainment of heaven and just just because one has received God’s grace, i.e. been justified, it does not mean that he cannot lose that grace by sinning or that his salvation is assured.
Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” If we are to saved, we must do the will of God. Granted, our works can never be sufficient for our salvation but they are necessary to it.
I never did understand why Protestants think that a one-time infusion of grace is all that needed to get to heaven and that it does not matter at all what one does afterward, how many or what kind of sins he commits, that he is still saved. This is obviously a very flawed theology. But since it makes for an easier life, it’s a popular one.
Excellent point. Further,
Matt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done
"Thy kingdom come, signifies, that truth may be received thy will be done, signifies, that it may be received by those who do the will of God" (AE 48)
Good and love (charity) are are received by the will. Truth and wisdom (faith) are received by the understanding. Charity is the essence of faith.
Matt 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!' 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' 9 But the wise answered, saying, 'No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.' 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' 12 But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming
""Oil" signifies love and charity; and among the foolish means among those who hear the Lord, that is, read the Word, and do not do it " (AR 433)
Faith and Charity can also be likened to the heat and light from the sun. In winter, there is light but no heat and plants die. In spring and summer, there is heat and plants grow.
You obviously have no idea what a sandy foundation you build on, focusing on the mere opinions of men who denied a Faith with organic traceability to the time of Christ Himself. That you deny that traceability is your opinion. If the Faith was not accurately transmitted all those centuries wherein you say the Church was apostate, then God's promised providence, found, among other places, in Matthew 28, is totally meaningless. Your very premises insult God Himself, even while your aim is merely to insult Catholics with your statement that they are not even Christian.
I am quoting the Council of Trent to show what the Church definitively taught. I realize that a lot of people don’t accept its authority. Fine. But at least, if you are going to argue against it, know what you’re arguing about.
By your own post, you are showing me that you don’t really understand the Catholic teaching on works either.
The quadriplegic can make interior actions of love every single moment...those are works. He can pray...that’s a work. Even making the “sinner’s prayer” and professing one’s faith is a work. As far as the Muslim example, nothing that we do *apart from Christ* has any merit whatsoever. But everything we do *with Christ* has merit by that very fact.
Secondly, you are quite incorrect that all that the healed folks did in the Gospel was “believe” and be cured without doing anything. The blind man in John 9 had mud and spit put in his eyes and was told to go wash in the pool of Siloam, for example. Suppose he were to refuse to wash, as Our Lord told him? Do you think he would have been saved? Likewise, the man who has faith but who refuses to live out that faith as Our Lord commanded in many many places will be damned.
It’s just as Trent said. It is damnable heresy to believe that man saves himself by his own power. But it is equally damnable heresy to believe that man’s works have nothing to do with his salvation. The orthodox faith is this—that man is saved by his free cooperation with the free and unmerited gift of grace.
well, When the Catholic-Orthodox Church was whole, you would know that they condemned works-based salvation (Pelagianism) as heresy.
All salvation is solely the result of God’s good graces and mercy.
The Catholic Church is actually very doctrinaire about this. Read the Catcheism.
The difference is that Catholics don’t think that faith is just believing. We think faith is living. In this sense, it is entirely biblical, as put forward in the Epistle of James and in the Gospels.
Hey Calvinators,
I’d like your comment on these canons. I post them once in a while, but I never get anything more than a “hmmm...interesting.”
These are the first three canons on justification from the big bad Council of Trent, and there are anathemas attached to them...i.e. if you don’t believe these three things, you are a damnable heretic in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
Are they right or are they wrong? If wrong, where wrong?
-Claud
ON JUSTIFICATION
CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.
Amen. It's how we understand faith, too.
YUP.
WELL PUT.
Well said.
I guess that is why they have altar calls-—so they can go “get saved” and not have to worry about it ever again.
It goes with the Reformed, pseudo-Calvinist predestinarian concept-—if you believe, you are one of the elect, and God has already willed you to be saved, so what you do has no importance whatsoever. Likewise, if you are not, it still doesn’t matter.
Nonsense . . .
it’s the ROUTES of transmission that many disagree with the RC’s about.
The RC edifice did it’s sometimes even military best to insure it had a monopoly on all things Christian . . . thankfully
God always had a remnant that was not under the control of the power-mongering political committee glorying bureaucrats.
a. Our righteousness is imputed, not infused.
b. When you say it does not matter at all what one does afterward is because Christ cover our sins, past present and future. That doesn't mean we have a license to sin, but as Paul sez: Where sin abounds, Grace abounds even more.
Real Salvation takes work on our part... shunning evils as sins, self-examination, recognizing and acknowledging sins, praying for the Lord's help in dealing with the temptations that follow and beginning a new life.
Repentance, reformation and regeneration.
Being born again isn't a one time event but a regeneration process that lasts to eternity, guided by the Lord.
Everyone is predestined for heaven... it's up to the individual how they live their lives.
That was my whole point. Stick to teaching the Bible instead of the traditions of men. We have church denominations supporting abortion, gay marriage, and other apostasy, and would argue with Jesus that they "see" it somewhere in Scripture. To argue that "praying in your heart" is works is confusing to people that are looking for you to "do" something for Christ. If all works is, is praying and worshiping God, then most Christians just can sit home and show their love of God. That's kind of "reaching" for most readers of the Bible. When you repent and believe, you are justified, period. Works for Christ is part of your sanctification. If you confess Christ in your last breath, you are Heaven bound. No works required. By the same token, many are seen doing "works" and never know Jesus Christ. Preaching works salvation is just error.
After you have fallen in love with Christ, you will chose to work for Him, but that will be judged in a separate Judgment with fire. Wood and stubble will be burnt up, but gold and silver will survive. You are already in Heaven when this happens. Even with no works, you are saved. Your clothes may smell of smoke, but you are still in Heaven. You cannot be pried from God's hand.
I don't think we are really that far apart, but you have to be careful to make distinctions to a new believer. Preaching works is slavery to God. I work for my family because I love them, not because of some obligation. I would still be married to my wife if I chose to go fishing every day. I may not be showing my love for them in the proper way, but the marriage is still legally binding.
Not Catholic. The formula is "faith-plus-works."
If you have specific information to the contrary, linking all times in the Christian era by way of some remnant containing a "pure" Christian doctrine that existed throughout all of that time without an extinction, please feel free to share at length your sources. Otherwise, you must consider that you might possibly be wrong in your assertions, and the guarantee of God's providence promised in Matthew 28 might have been preserved through avenues you currently find ...distasteful.
Don’t bother pointing these out to the Catholic bashers they fall on deaf ears, let them roll in the dirt with each other.
Matt 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave-- 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Just do a search in the New Testament how many 'works' the Lord and His disciples did. Then, Do a search on "follow me". Works we do are AS IF from ourselves, but acknowledged they are from the Lord. It's application of faith to your life.
What's that saying? "I'd rather be a servant in heaven than reign in hell?"
How do you know when you have done enough “works” for salvation?
But, their Bibles seem to have nothing before the Book of Acts! :-)
Others have done a decent enough job on that in the past hereon.
No amount of proof influences addictive idolatrous devotion to a certain bureaucratic magicsterical committee in the least.
It's not remotely worth the bother.
How do you know how much prayer, meditation or Bible study is sufficient?
Think of works as being of service (charitable) to your church, country, vocation, neighbor, etc. The question is how, not how much.
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