Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Is Water Baptism Necessary for Salvation? (Protestant Caucus)
Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry ^ | May 20, 2008 | Matt Slick

Posted on 07/07/2008 2:25:27 PM PDT by Ottofire

Debate Topic: Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

On Tuesday, May 13, 2008 I debated a Mr. Roger Perkins on "Is water baptism necessary for salvation?". Mr. Perkins is a oneness believer and an ex-pastor in the oneness movement.  Mr. Perkins holds the position that water baptism is necessary for salvation.  I deny that assertion and maintain that justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Mr. Perkins opened with a 15 minute speech.  I followed with the text below, which I read word for word - except in a few places where I ventured away from the text for a brief moment.

 

-----------------------------

 

The topic tonight is "Is water baptism necessary for salvation?”. Notice that when we say “necessary” we mean that there is no exception to the requirement - otherwise the word “necessary” is inappropriate. So, if there is an exception, if someone can be saved without baptism, then water baptism is not necessary.

Has as Mr. Perkins that it water baptism is an absolute necessity? No. He can certainly cite examples of people being baptized after they believe, but citing examples does not prove that water baptism is necessary in order to be saved.

If we can find anyone who is saved without being baptized then we have proved that baptism is not necessary for salvation. This is very easy to do because we find the Old Testament saints who died in the faith and the expectation of the Messiah who were not baptized in water, yet they were saved. Paul brings the Old Testament context into the new. In Romans 4:3, he says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Paul refers to Abraham to say that his faith was reckoned as righteousness. Since only the saved are righteous in God’s site, Abraham’s salvation (though ultimately future as it waited for the sacrifice of Christ) was received by faith – before any rituals were instituted, including the ritual of circumcision.

Two verses later in Romans 4:5, Paul speaks to us today by saying, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” Notice that the same phrases used: Faith is reckoned as righteousness. Again in Rom. 5:1, he says "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

So, faith is reckoned as righteousness back in Abraham's time as well as ours today. Abraham was saved without a ritual and so are we. This is why we are justified by faith. It is not faith in the ritual of water baptism that results in righteousness nor is it faith and water baptism that brings us justification; otherwise, we are not justified by faith but by faith and water baptism, by faith and a ritual.

The ritual of circumcision is condemned by Paul in Galatians 5 as having no part of salvation. He condemns the Judaizers for their desire to participate in a ritual and add it to their faith in Christ.

A ritual is a ceremony that is done by one or more persons. Circumcision involves two parties: the one performing the action and the one receiving the action. Likewise, baptism involves two parties: the one performing the action and the one receiving the action. Both are rituals. Both are religious procedures. Both are religious ceremonies. My opponent is requiring a ritual, a ceremony in order to be saved.

I’ve proven that baptism is not necessary for salvation by citing Abraham. But Mr. Perkins might say that my approach is misguided and that the Old Testament saints were under a different "dispensation" or “requirement” than we are today and that we could not require that they be held to Christian baptism since Christian baptism had not yet been instituted. If that is so, then water baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is simple logic.

Nevertheless, for the sake of continuing our debate, let's limit our discussion to whether or not water baptism is necessary for us now. Do we need to be baptized in water in order to be justified by faith?

The answer is no because if it were necessary then it would violate the Scriptures’ clear teaching that justification is by grace through faith. It is never said that we are justified by faith and something whether it be law, ceremony, or sincerity of heart.  

Now, my opponent has turned to Scripture and quoted various verses about water baptism and said the Scriptures teach it is necessary. But this has not been established. He has inferred that it is necessary by citing the pattern of baptism after belief. In fact, there is no scripture that says “baptism is necessary for salvation”. We see no verses that say we are condemned if we don't get baptized, but we do see scripture that says we are condemned if we don't believe. Mark 16:16 says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” John 3:18 says, “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already.” If baptism is necessary for salvation then we should find verses that say “and he who is not baptized will be condemned.” But no such verse exists.

Now Paul preached the gospel and he said in 1 Cor. 1:15-17, “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 that no man should say you were baptized in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel….” If baptism is necessary for salvation, why is Paul saying he came to preach the gospel and not to baptize? Why is Paul saying he's glad he did not baptize except a very few people? Paul is too smart to make the mistake of not baptizing people if people are erringly claiming to be baptized into his name. It would be like me saying, “I'm not going to preach salvation in Christ by faith because someone might say they received it in the name of Matt Slick.” I am obligated to preach the gospel that saves regardless of whether or not someone mistakenly points to me or to God in the process. I’ll point to God. I’ll point to justification by faith alone in Christ alone… not to justification by faith and water baptism, not to justification by faith and circumcision, not to justification by faith and going to church, not to justification by faith and any other human ritual that would add to the finished work of Christ and, thereby, insult the cross.

Again, Paul said he came to preach the gospel not to baptize. In fact, Paul tells us that it is the gospel that saves, and baptism is excluded from what he says the gospel is. He says in 1 Cor. 15:1-4, “Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel … by which also you are savedthat Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” Baptism is not mentioned as part of that which saves us.

In Acts 16:27-34 when the jailer had been awakened by an earthquake and he saw that the prisoners under his charge did not escape he asked Paul “what must I do to be saved?" The answer was simple, “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, you and your household.” He was then immediately baptized. Notice that Paul did not say that you must believe the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized in order to be saved. He left baptism out. He said believe. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then why did Paul exclude it?

In Acts 10:44-47 it says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”. These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. Tongues is a gift given to the members of the Christian Church, as 1 Cor. 14:1-5 shows us. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved. 1 Cor. 2:14 says the unbeliever does not receive or understand spiritual things and Rom. 3:10-12 says the unbeliever does not seek for God and is a hater of God. Therefore, the ones in Acts 10:44-47 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality. 

Another way of dealing with the baptism issue is with a brief discussion about someone on her deathbed in a hospital. And let me tell you, I have spoken with at least two to hospital chaplains who told me that this happens.

Let’s say there is a person who is dying and the Chaplain comes in and gives him the gospel. Then under the conviction of the Holy Spirit which is in accordance with John 16:8, the person believes that Jesus died for his sins, was buried, and rose from the dead according to the Scriptures. This person confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord (Rom. 10:9-10), prays to Christ (1 Cor. 1:2; John 14:14), and receives Christ (John 1:12), by faith but dies before water baptism is administered, is that person saved or damned?

If water baptism is necessary, then that person is damned to hell even though he trusted in Christ, even though he trusted in the sacrifice of Christ, even though he by faith receive Christ. He would be damned to hell because he did not participate in the human ritual. He would be damned to hell because, he would not be justified by faith, but by faith and the ritual of water baptism.

If Mr. Perkins says he does not know if the person goes to heaven or hell, and water baptism is not necessary because if it were, he would be in hell.

Paul tells us in Romans 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," and again in Romans 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are justified by faith, not by faith and baptism, not by faith and a ritual. Christ’s work is sufficient in itself for his complete and finished and there is nothing we could add to it. This is why we receive our salvation by faith. This is why we are justified by faith, this is why baptism is not necessary for salvation, because otherwise, it is not justification by faith.

 


Return to Oneness Pentecostal


CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS AND RESEARCH MINISTRY 
Home | Contact | Newsletter | Publications | Online Schools
Support CARM | Copying and Linking | Report an error
Statement of Faith | Theology Quiz
Copyright Matthew J. Slick, 1995 - 2008

SUBSCRIBE TO THE CARM NEWSLETTER


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 07/07/2008 2:25:28 PM PDT by Ottofire
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Ottofire
Is water baptism necessary for salvation?.

NO!

2 posted on 07/07/2008 2:27:33 PM PDT by fso301
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ottofire

Christ’s work is sufficient and complete.


3 posted on 07/07/2008 2:39:51 PM PDT by pipecorp ( Al Lahsucks (boat steersman ) hell)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ottofire
Well presented! I wonder, how many see water baptism as the beginning of how to avoid their acts of faith being consumed as they pass through fire? ... [It's scriptural that our 'works' may be consumed by fire but the believer saved out of the fire. Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.]
4 posted on 07/07/2008 3:03:29 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ottofire

No physical ceremony, ritual, or tradition is necessary for salvation.


5 posted on 07/07/2008 4:00:39 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Socialism ..the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery" W. Churchill)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ottofire

The thief on the cross had no opportunity to be baptised - yet he was promised paradise.


6 posted on 07/07/2008 4:03:00 PM PDT by Godzilla (Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla
"The thief on the cross had no opportunity to be baptised - yet he was promised paradise."

".. even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the __washing of water by the word__, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians 5: 25b-27

7 posted on 07/07/2008 4:06:38 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Socialism ..the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery" W. Churchill)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Matchett-PI

If you take this phrase, “cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” as proof that baptism has merit regarding spiritual birth of an individual, please explain how the word washes with water. If you can make that happen, then please explain why you think that is the same as post-belief baptism.


8 posted on 07/07/2008 4:58:20 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla

Baptism, signifying the believer’s identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, would have had no practical meaning for the thief on the cross since none of those events had yet come to pass while Jesus was speaking to him.


9 posted on 07/07/2008 5:02:39 PM PDT by Jim Hill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
"If you take this phrase, “cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” as proof that baptism has merit regarding spiritual birth of an individual, please explain how the word washes with water. If you can make that happen, then please explain why you think that is the same as post-belief baptism."

You misunderstand.

Is Baptism (Or any Work) Required for Salvation?"

10 posted on 07/07/2008 6:31:50 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Socialism ..the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery" W. Churchill)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Ottofire

Doesn’t seem so, they guy nailed up next to Jesus was never baptized.


11 posted on 07/07/2008 6:33:02 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (This election is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if McCain wins, we're still retarded.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Matchett-PI

Is Baptism (Or any Work) Required for Salvation?

The answer to that question is YES! The work of Christ is required. He alone was worthy to take upon Himself the payment required for sin, as He had none of His own. If man had to work to gain salvation, he would surely go to hell as he is marked by sin before he is born and sins daily until he dies.

The book of Hebrews answers and explains this better than any human is able.


12 posted on 07/07/2008 6:36:32 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg

That’s what I said in post #7. :)


13 posted on 07/07/2008 6:53:41 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Socialism ..the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery" W. Churchill)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
We can do no works to save our souls. If we could then then the cross would not be necessary. Baptism should be a desired act as it is an act of public profession and following {symbolically} Christ to death and resurrection. Salvation and Baptism in some can be decades apart. If the Holy Spirit puts it on your heart to do so then by all means do so. At the same time you may be given the call to salvation and answers Yes LORD and be left at that point until GOD's own will nudges you further.

I can not think of any other thing in the church that causes as much anxiety in ones belief as Baptism and it really shouldn't.

For example someone was saved in their early life and through the years becomes more aware of their spiritual well being. Some feel they need to be Baptized yet again. Baptism can not save you. We are saved by Grace through Faith. It is not something we can purchase nor can any public act achieve it. It comes from the heart and thus the Baptism that saves is not that of man but that of the Blood Of Jesus Christ as we are Baptized at the time of salvation by the Holy Spirit. That does not mean we all will be jumping pews etc either. It may take years for the fruit to be produced.

Baptism is also an opening for legalism's where certain sects claim you are not saved unless the preacher specifically says In the Name Of Jesus Christ. Indeed these matters are as trivial as the legalism argument of circumcision among the Apostles.

14 posted on 07/07/2008 7:02:14 PM PDT by cva66snipe ($.01 The current difference between the DEM's and GOP as well as their combined worth to this nation)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: cva66snipe

I don’t see anything in your post that I disagree with. The only works that have merit in the saving of souls is that of Christ Jesus the Lamb of God and not any man (or woman).


15 posted on 07/07/2008 7:09:40 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Back in my early adult life I was hounded by a misguided Baptism fanatic. {Only way I can describe him}. When a person ask someone if they know Christ as Lord and Savior and they say yes then they should say well good etc or glad for you brother. I had one guy follow me around in a venue I could not get away from him. He asked me well what did the preacher say during the Baptism. I said In the name of The Father, and of The Son, and of the Holy Ghost. He informed me I was not saved and headed for hell because the preacher did not Baptize me in the name of Jesus Christ. At the point in my life now I'd shrug it off. I know better. The guy I'm certain thought he was doing the Lords work but making one doubt or question their salvation IMO is dangerous territory.

There's been many hills and deep valley's since the time as a young teen I made my decision. I've strayed, I've sinned, but I've been dealt with by GOD & brought back to my senses. To His Glory and by no means anything on my part in that respect. But I've not doubted my salvation as such except briefly when that guy showed up. Finally he must have got discharged but I saw him no more.

16 posted on 07/07/2008 7:23:42 PM PDT by cva66snipe ($.01 The current difference between the DEM's and GOP as well as their combined worth to this nation)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Jim Hill

That is a good point, but the key is that God looked at the simple faith the thief had and accounted it to him for righteousness.


17 posted on 07/07/2008 7:23:45 PM PDT by Godzilla (Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: cva66snipe

Well we can fall down on our knees and raise our voices in agreement, to the praise and glory of our savior and Lord. Men will always try to deceive, working in harness with the Prince of the air, the sinful system of the world, and their own sinful flesh. Christ is our refuge and His Word is nourishment for our soul, and the Holy Spirit is our guardian.

Charles Stanley’s “Eternal Security” describes his own journey from an Arminian view to a Biblical one. http://www.amazon.com/Eternal-Security-Can-You-Sure/dp/0840790953

It’s not a perfect book (only one is) and it doesn’t touch on all areas (such as Oneness or eternal rewards). But it is a good book.


18 posted on 07/07/2008 7:33:21 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Thanks. My book reading days are for the most part behind me. Concentration is a cherished commodity for me most of the time. As such I'm thankful I was given a spiritual nudge where I did a lot of reading in about a 5-7 year window opened for me. About the only place I can even pray at any length is to go for a nice quiet walk along a local river path.
19 posted on 07/07/2008 7:39:14 PM PDT by cva66snipe ($.01 The current difference between the DEM's and GOP as well as their combined worth to this nation)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Matchett-PI

More to the point, it’s what you concisely pointed out in post #5 - which I missed :-)

Press on!


20 posted on 07/07/2008 8:07:09 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson