Posted on 06/17/2008 7:58:18 PM PDT by Grig
If a person with a strong Protestant background and no education in the doctrines of the LDS Church were to read Chapter 4 of Mormonism 101, they would come away with the feeling that the LDS doctrine of a premortal life had been thoroughly discussed and discredited. This is not a fair assessment, however, as neither Bill McKeever nor Eric Johnson examine much of the evidence available in support of the LDS position.
It can be stated right up front that the authors do a fairly good job of concisely stating the views of the LDS Church in relation to preexistence2 and the plan of salvation. Information in the chapter is presented in four sections, labeled as follows:
The first two sections do a reasonable job of presenting the LDS views on the why we are here on Earth, with the notable exception of a brief jaunt into Church policy concerning birth control. I won't spend much time discussing information presented in these first two sections, nor will I present a rejoinder related to birth control. Suffice it to say that doctrine (such as premortal existence) and policy (such as birth control) are two separate issues. I am sure the reader can appreciate how any denomination's policies can change over time, without affecting the underlying doctrines upon which those policies may be predicated. Unfortunately, McKeever and Johnson do their readers a disservice by confusing policy with doctrine. Such disservice does nothing but misinform the reader unschooled in LDS philosophy.
What I will discuss is McKeever's and Johnson's presentation in the third section related to preexistence and the Bible. The assertion in this section is that those who believe in the Bible cannot believe in life before life. Such an assertion is evidenced through statements such as the following:
The authors finish the section with the challenging statement "Until Mormons can show better proof of humanity's eternal existence, Christians are unable to agree with this extrabiblical teaching."3
Such a challenge, of course, should not go unanswered. In fact, had McKeever and Johnson done adequate research, they would have known that such challenges have been answered many times in the past.4 In other words, the authors are not providing new information or even a new angle on existing information. Instead, assertions previously made—and previously answered—are being made again.
I will not herein dwell on the premortal existence of Jesus Christ, Savior of the world. Such a topic is abundantly testified to in scripture, both ancient and modern, and nothing in the chapter at hand gives rise to any question concerning the acceptance of the doctrine of Christ's antemortal existence. I will leave it to the reader to ponder whether Christ was not just our spiritual pattern, but also a literal pattern of the path that each of us tread as we make our way from our home with God, through this earth life, and back once more to the eternal realms.
Instead, what I propose to do in the balance of this article is to examine the concept of premortal existence from several different aspects. The following sections start us on our journey of discovery.
Many people who are not LDS are entirely comfortable with the concept of a life before this life. Many see this mortal life as nothing more than a temporary way station on some cosmic journey. Consider a small portion of a poem by William Wordsworth:
Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!5
A common question faced by parents, holding their newborn child for the first time, is where this tiny miracle comes from. The origin of the child's physical body is obvious, but the beginnings of personality evident at the earliest stages of child development are easiest explained through an understanding that our spirits—which make up our personality—do not have their beginnings in the womb. Indeed, they hearken back to an earlier time, as so aptly stated by Wordsworth.
In addition, many within the Christian community are comfortable making reference to our "immortal spirit" or our "eternal spirit." Logic dictates that if something designated as eternal has a beginning, then it is not really eternal. Likewise, if a spirit can be imagined to have a beginning, then it can just as easily be imagined to have an end. To accept the concept of a beginning without an end is just as illogical as thinking that a circle has an endpoint.
As appealing as the concept of a premortal life may be to some, to others the idea smacks of emotionalism, wishful thinking, simplistic superstition, or outright heresy. Common sense ideas, however, often have their roots in deeper doctrinal concepts, as shall be shortly seen.
It is certainly true that the LDS are not the only people to believe in a premortal life. In fact, many scholars (both LDS and non-LDS) find strong evidence for a belief in premortal life in the writings and teachings of the early Christian fathers. While these teachings may have been dropped from the rote canon of the church, there is little doubt that they were understood and espoused from the earliest recorded times.
For instance, Clement of Alexandria, commenting on the scriptural passage in Jeremiah 1:5 (which is also addressed more fully in the next section), generalized the doctrine as having universal application. He wrote:
"…the Logos is not to be despised as something new, for even in Jeremiah the Lord says, 'Say not "I am too young," for before I formed thee in the womb I knew thee, and before thou camest forth from thy mother I sanctified thee.' It is possible that in speaking these things the prophet is referring to us, as being known to God as faithful before the foundation of the world."6
Another church father that spoke directly to the idea of a premortal existence was Origen of Alexandria (ca. 185–254 AD). Writing in the third century, he stated a belief that differences evident among men on earth were attributable to differences in rank and glory attained by those men as premortal angels. According to Origen, God could not be viewed as "no respecter of persons" without such a premortal existence. In fact, if the differences of men on earth were not related in some way to our premortal condition, then God could be viewed as arbitrary, capricious, and unjust. Origen felt that just as there would a judgment after this life, that a sort of judgment had already taken place based on our premortal merit, with the result being the station to which we were appointed in this life. As an example of this concept supported in the Bible, Origen referred to the Old Testament story of Jacob being preferred over Esau. Why was this so? According to Origen, because "we believe that he was even then chosen by God because of merits acquired before this life."7
Belief in a premortal life was not confined to various early church fathers. In the course of his writings the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote about the beliefs of the Essenes. He reported they believed "that the souls are immortal, and continue for ever." He further related that the Essenes believed that the souls of men "are united to their bodies as in prisons" and that when the spirits are set free they are "released from a long bondage" and ascend heavenward with great rejoicing.8 Josephus' description of Essene doctrine has surely taken on greater validity in light of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran. Together these records provide primary evidence that contemporaries of Christ and the apostles believed in a premortal life—a belief that is validated by the Bible itself, as discussed in the following section.
These historical citations are just the tip of the iceberg. Serious students of the topic can find additional information that verifies that ancient Christians and Jews understood and accepted the concept of premortal existence. While knowing that the concept has historical roots does not prove the concept to be true, it certainly counteracts the fallacious claim that the teachings of the LDS on the topic are new, heretical, or dangerous.
In the course of proffering a refutation of the LDS doctrine of a premortal life, McKeever and Johnson cite three scriptures, asserting that the LDS use them as biblical proofs for the concept of a premortal life. The cited scriptures are Jeremiah 1:5; Job 38:4,7; and Ecclesiastes 12:7. The extent of McKeever's and Johnson's rebuttal of these scriptures is to contend that the LDS interpretations are incorrect, and offer differing interpretations. A deeper examination of those scriptures, along with the interpretations of them, is certainly in order.
In the case of Jeremiah 1:5, the authors assert that the scripture is a reference to God's foreknowledge, and not to a personal knowledge of humans. Granting that God has limitless foreknowledge does not preclude a personal knowledge of individual humans, however. McKeever and Johnson do not refute the possibility of such knowledge, instead opting to say (in effect) "No, that can't be it." Such assertions, while they may be comforting to the authors and sufficient in their own estimation, do not preclude the acceptability of the LDS interpretation of the scripture at hand.
It is hard to deny the specificity of words used in the Jeremiah passage:
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Notice three key words here: knew, sanctified, and ordained. The wording itself indicates that God literally knew Jeremiah and was familiar with his spiritual attitudes and abilities. In addition, God sanctified Jeremiah, a description not of foreknowledge but of an actual event with participants present. The process of sanctification, or setting something apart as holy, by definition requires that something (such as Jeremiah himself) be present to be set apart. Likewise, the act of ordaining a person—in this case a prophet—requires that the individual be present. These acts—sanctification and ordination—are not mental exercises, but actual events.
Indeed, other modern Christian scholars have chosen to acknowledge the claim that Jeremiah 1:5 speaks of more than mere foreknowledge. In reference to the concept of premortal life, William de Arteaga stated:
"This question was hotly debated by Christians of late antiquity, and the faction of the Church which was bitterly opposed to preexistence gained the upper hand. By the sixth century belief in preexistence was declared heresy. All of this is quite astonishing in view of the clear and repeated biblical evidence for preexistence."9
The event referred to in the sixth century was an edict by Pope Vigilius in 543 AD that rejected the doctrine of preexistence taught by Origen of Alexandria. Historical records indicate that the edict, called Anathemas Against Origen, was actually penned by the Roman emperor, Justinian,10 and signed by the pope and other bishops present at the Second Council of Constantinople.11 The official document labeled Origen's teachings heresy and forbid them being taught in the church.12
When it comes to the trials of Job and the discussions that God had with Job, it seems that McKeevers and Johnson are actually the ones taking scripture out of context. They are quick to cite the rhetorical nature of the questions posed to Job, but slow to understand the concepts being conveyed by the Lord through such literary means. Just take a look at Job 38:1–7:
"Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
"Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
"Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
"Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
In the course of reproving Job, the Lord indicates several key pieces of knowledge. First of all, in verse four the Lord asks "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Such a question, by its very nature, implies that Job was somewhere. Why would God ask Job a question which was not instructive, and why would the ancient scribes include the discourse if something could not be learned? McKeever and Johnson indicate that the assertion that Job had to be somewhere (thereby supporting preexistence) presupposes that preexistence is a fact. Such circular reasoning can be just as easily applied to the position taken by McKeever and Johnson: one can only interpret the verse as saying that Job was not present when God laid the foundations of the earth if one presupposes that the spirits of men had no premortal life.
Thus, both interpretations can be seen to be on an equal footing when the singular verse is examined. The Lord, however, does not leave the matter alone for long. In further questioning Job, he asks (in essence) where Job was "when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Here, again, is the assertion that Job had to be somewhere. Not just Job, however, but the morning stars and the sons of God. And these were not silent participants in the framing of the world, but singers and shouters, indicating they were possessed of independent capabilities of thought and action. Taken together, these two verses provide a strong case for the concept of a premortal life.
Finally, McKeever and Johnson indicate that the LDS see Ecclesiastes 12:7 as a reference to "the second leg of a 'round trip' passage." While this may be an amusing way to discredit the LDS concept, it is not nearly as easy to avoid the specific language of the verse:
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
The simple question remains as to how something could return to a point it had not been to before. If the scripture is best translated, as the authors assert, as only having reference to returning to a God who created the spirit,13 then the only difference between their understanding and that of the LDS is a matter of timing. We believe that God created the spirit of man—just that it was done long before the mortal birth. Either way, the spirit still returns home to God.
But there is a deeper problem with the interpretation of this scripture offered by McKeever and Johnson. By rejecting the concept of premortal existence, the authors swallow the concept that the spirit of man springs into existence at some time between conception and birth.14 If the scripture is to be interpreted literally, and as a parallel linguistic construction, then dust returns to dust, as it was without life, and spirit returns to its former uncreated condition, meaning without life as well. Thus, the problem is that the scripture could just as easily be used to justify a doctrine of there being no life after death.
Having already addressed the few scriptures that McKeever and Johnson cited in their chapter, there are others—equally telling—that they ignored. These scriptures, when taken in conjunction with those already discussed, present an even stronger case for the concept of a premortal life. Perhaps the most salient to consider at this point is the exchange between Jesus and his disciples recorded in John 9:1–2:
"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
"And his disciples asked him, saying Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"
Was this a rhetorical question on the part of the disciples? No, the question indicated that the disciples thought one possible answer to the blindness of the man was that he had sinned. Since he was born blind—a fact the record indicates that both Jesus and His disciples knew—then the wording of the question indicates that the sinning must have taken place before the birth of the man, by the man himself. How could the man have sinned, resulting in a punishment of being blind at birth, unless he had lived before he was born?
If the concept of a premortal life was in error, then the Master Teacher had a perfect opportunity to correct His students. His answer is recorded in John 9:3:
"Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."
Jesus then proceeded to heal the man, foregoing any opportunity to correct the concept of the man having lived before birth. Instead, He acknowledged the concept by saying that the man had not sinned.15 In the words of one non-LDS scholar:
"The question posed by the disciples explicitly presupposed prenatal existence. It will be also noted that Christ says nothing to dispel or correct the presupposition. Here is incontrovertible support for a doctrine of human preexistence.
"It is perfectly reasonable to surmise on the basis of this episode that Jesus and his followers accepted preexistence and thought so little of it that the question of prenatal sin did not even call for an answer."16
There are other scriptures in the Bible that can be used to support the concept of a premortal life. Suffice it to say that for the time being, however, the words of God and Jesus may be sufficient to the task at hand. McKeever's and Johnson's charges of taking scripture out of context notwithstanding, there is a reasonable basis for at least recognizing a biblical basis for the doctrine of a preexistence.17
While the biblical record is extensive for at least acknowledging the possibility of life before life, those who believe in continuing revelation are left with no doubt as to the veracity of premortal life. McKeever and Johnson may question why the doctrine of premortal life wasn't taught from the very beginnings of the restoration (in the very first years of the LDS Church), but such is the nature of continuing revelation—it allows the mysteries of the Lord to be revealed as the people are ready to hear, understand, and accept the concepts being taught by the Lord.
In their treatment of the topic at hand, McKeever and Johnson already made reference to some of the scriptural references that support the doctrine. In Abraham 3:22–23 the Lord is speaking to Abraham and revealing His plan for His children:18
"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
"And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born."
Can there be any doubt that Abraham understood who he was, as one of God's children, and that God had a plan for him? In fact, it is interesting to note that this scripture is consistent with the earlier discussion of Jeremiah 1:5. God, in consistent manner, revealed to two prophets that they had been with God before they were born and they were there chosen to fulfill their prophetic missions on an earth that had yet to be created.
Perhaps the most telling scriptural statement is made by the Lord Himself in Moses 3:5, where the Lord is recounting the story of the creation to Moses:19
"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;" (emphasis added)
Here, again, there is little doubt as to where man fits into the overall economy of God's plan. God created His children before sending them to earth; they were with Him in the preexistence.20
References to premortal life are not limited to the teachings of the ancient prophets among those in the Middle East, as recorded in the Pearl of Great Price. Indeed, ancient prophets in the Americas also understood and taught the concept. One such prophet was Alma,21 who recorded these words in Alma 13:3–7:
"And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.
"And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.
"Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—
"And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest—
"This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things—"
Here we learn several things. First, that priesthood power is eternal, being an order that "was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years." We also learn that certain men—priesthood holders—were "called and prepared from the foundation of the world." In other words, these people existed with God in the premortal life and were prepared to come to earth, bear the priesthood, and teach God's children. Why? Because God's foreknowledge allowed Him to understand the need for such preparation and such priesthood holders.
These verses also make reference to "the first place." In our modern-day vernacular, we often use the phrase "in the first place" when we are about to list off items in some manner. This common usage often blinds us to the fact that "the first place" is primarily just that—a place first among several. Alma refers to the priesthood holders being "in the first place" and left to choose good and evil. They chose good over evil, showed "exceedingly great faith," and were prepared for missions here on earth. Others present at that first place, given the same opportunities, did not respond in kind and so were not given the same preparation and calling.
Such a scenario is reminiscent of the account in Abraham, where he was informed that the Lord stood among leaders prepared before the foundation of the world, and that Abraham was one of those leaders.
Finally, the prophet Joseph Smith taught that man lived before coming to earth. D&C 49:17 records a revelation2223 Later, in D&C 93:29, the Lord revealed "man was also in the beginning with God."24 of the Savior in which it is stated that man was created "before the world was made."
Prophets today continue to teach the glorious truth that we are children of loving heavenly parents. We lived before we came to this world, we can know God while in this life, and we have the opportunity to be with God after we leave this mortal sphere. In late 1995, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve25 unitedly stated:
"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
"In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life."26
I started this document by stating that McKeever and Johnson did a reasonable job of concisely stating the views of the LDS Church in relation to preexistence and the plan of salvation. They did not, however, do a very good job in refuting the concepts espoused by the LDS in relation to premortal life. Instead, they present alternate interpretations of selected scriptures that fit with their preconceived notions concerning where we came from.
Unfortunately, the doctrine put forth by McKeever and Johnson cannot really answer where we came from. Without an understanding of where we came from, it is difficult to understand why we are here and where we are going. While the teachings of McKeever and Johnson may not answer these questions, we are fortunate to live in a time when the answers have been fully revealed by prophets, as in times of old.
1 The author is personally responsible for all research, representations, and mistakes that may be present in this document. Every effort has been made to present sources and information fairly and factually. The author is a writer and editor by trade and an amateur apologist by avocation. He is not a representative—official or unofficial—of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but has happily been a member for 33 years.
2 The terms premortal life, preexistence, premortal existence, and antemortal life are used interchangeably throughout this document. Each refers to the time when we lived with God before being born to mortal parents on Earth.
3 It is interesting to note that the authors presume to speak for the entire panoply of Christianity with all its myriad denominations and sects. Verbiage such as this also accentuates the assumption on the part of the authors that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Christian. For an excellent discussion of this topic, see Stephen E. Robinson in Are Mormons Christian? (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1991)
4 For other treatments of this topic, see relevant discussions by Richard R. Hopkins in Biblical Mormonism (Bountiful, Utah: Horizon Publishers, 1994); Brent L. Top in The Life Before (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988); Truman G. Madsen in Eternal Man (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1966); Joseph Fielding Smith in Man, His Origin and Destiny (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1954); Boyd K. Packer in Our Father's Plan (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1984); and Barry R. Bickmore in Restoring the Ancient Church (Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research, 1999).
5 William Wordsworth (1770–1850), Ode: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood.
6 Clement of Alexandria, in Patrologiae… Graeca, 8:321, as cited by Hugh Nibley in The World and the Prophets (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1974), 228.
7 Origen, Peri Archon, in Patrologiae… Graeca, 9:230–231, as cited by Hugh Nibley in The World and the Prophets (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1974), 230. It is not the purpose here to debate or justify Origen's belief in a judgment before coming to Earth. Instead, this evidence is presented in substantiation of the historical acceptability—indeed, the historical teaching—of the concept of premortal life.
8 Wars of the Jews, Chapter VIII, 11. translated by William Whiston, A.M., in The Complete Works of Josephus. (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1981), 478.
9 William de Arteaga, Past Life Visions: A Christian Exploration (New York: Seabury Press, 1983), 127, as quoted by Brent L. Top in The Life Before (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), 25.
10 Justinian was not a nice man regarding those who disagreed with him theologically. One author reports the following concerning the emperor: "Savage penalties were more loudly advertised by the impatient autocracy of the emperors, to offset the irremediable venality and favoritism of their servants. The means of persecution available to the church thus had more of an edge. Especially so under Justinian (527–565). A brutally energetic, or energetically brutal, ruler enjoying a very long reign, he pursued the goal of religious uniformity as no one before him. … He did not see it as murder if the victims did not share his own beliefs. …Those he disagreed with he was likely to mutilate if he didn't behead or crucify them..." [Ramsay MacMullen, Christianity and Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries (Yale University Press, 1997), 26–27]
11 This Council, sometimes referred to as the Fifth Ecumenical Council, was held in 553 AD. It was the council at which the anathemas, penned and signed some ten years earlier, were formally adopted.
12 Tales of the relationships between early popes and Roman emperors make for great reading. The relationship between Pope Vigilius and Emperor Justinian is no exception. Many records indicate that the anathemas declared against Origen had their roots in political posturing regarding doctrines of the early church. Regardless, many scholars regard the papal edict in 543 AD as the reason that the concept of preexistence is generally considered extrabiblical today. It is clear from the record that before this time the concept was freely taught by many within the church.
13 Note, however, that the wording used in the scripture is "gave," not "created." This same translation carries not only in the King James version of the Bible, but in the Amplified, New American Standard, New International, and New Revised Standard versions, as well.
14 Exact timing is not critical; the issue is whether life exists before life.
15 This position is supported by other scriptures in which the apostles reference sinning in a period before birth. In 2 Peter 2:4, Peter references "angels that sinned," and Jude alluded to the same even in Jude 6. Both have reference to the concept of the first estate—or premortal existence—as understood in LDS doctrine.
16 Quincy Howe, Jr., Reincarnation for the Christian (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1974), 92–93, as quoted by Brent L. Top in The Life Before (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), 30.
17 It should also be obvious to the astute reader that McKeever and Johnson set themselves up to speak for all of Christendom in their exposition of doctrine. This position, in light of the analysis presented in this document from other Christian scholars (both ancient and modern), may be presumptive on their part. If there are other Christian thinkers who disagree with McKeever and Johnson concerning at least the possibility of premortal life, then how is it possible for the authors to speak for Christians as a whole and set those Christians at odds with the LDS position?
18 Abraham is a book within the Pearl of Great Price, one of the revealed works accepted as official canon by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
19 Moses is another book within the Pearl of Great Price, accepted and regarded as scripture by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
20 The book of Moses was translated by Joseph Smith beginning in June 1830, shortly after the Book of Mormon was published. Any argument that the doctrine of premortal life was not taught in the early years of the LDS Church would seem to be called into question by this fact. While the doctrine may not have been stressed, the clear scriptural basis for the doctrine was already available within the Church.
21 Alma was a prophet who lived and taught among Book of Mormon peoples shortly before the birth of the Savior.
22 Many of the revelations given to Joseph Smith, as well as some other latter-day prophets, are recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants (often abbreviated D&C). This book constitutes one of the official canons of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
23 This revelation was received March 1831 in Kirtland, Ohio. This was only one year after the official organization of the Church.
24 This revelation was received May 6, 1833 in Kirtland, Ohio.
25 The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve are two organizational structures within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Each group is composed of men called as Apostles, with the same calling issued by the Savior to his own Apostles. They are special witnesses of the Lord Jesus Christ. One of the Apostles is called by the Lord (typically the Apostle with the most seniority) to preside as President of the Church. Two additional Apostles serve as his counselors and assist him. These three comprise the First Presidency. Members of both the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are accepted and sustained by members of the Church as prophets, seers, and revelators.
26 The Family: A Proclamation to the World, first publicly read by President Gordon B. Hinckley on September 23, 1995. A full copy of this document can be found online at http://www.lds.org.
YOMWMP
[yet one more weird mormon post]
to think that electrons are being slaughtered
to pimp this stuff...
Nice post, Grig.
This e-mail was sent to me by a non member.
A newborn’s conversation with God
A baby asked God, ‘They tell me you are sending me to earth tomorrow, but how am I going to live there, being so small and helpless?’ God said, ‘Your angel will be waiting for you and will take care of you.’
The child inquired, ‘But here in heaven, I don’t have to do anything but sing and smile to be happy.’ God said, ‘Your angel will sing for you and will also smile for you. And you will feel your angel’s love and be very happy.’
Again the child asked, ‘How will I understand when people talk to me if I don’t know the language?’ God said, ‘Your angel will tell you the most beautiful, sweet words you will ever hear, and with much patience and care, your angel will teach you how to speak.’
‘And what am I going to do when I want to talk to you?’ God said, ‘Your angel will place your hands together and will teach you how to pray.’
‘Who will protect me?’ God said, ‘Your angel will defend you even if it means risking its own life.’
‘But I will always be sad because I will not see you anymore.’ God said,’Your angel will always talk to you about Me and will teach you the way to come back to Me, even though I will always be next to you.’
At that moment, there was much peace in Heaven, but voices from Earth were heard and the child asked, ‘God, if I am to leave now, please tell me my angel’s name.’
God said, ‘You will simply call her, ‘Mom.’
Interestingly, Mohammed had similar angelic experiences which directed him to worship Allah, the moon god and god of war. Later, the illiterate Mohammed became more ‘spiritual, to the point of foaming at the mouth and having convulsions prior and through such visitations. His direction from the messengers were to blaspheme and deny Christ as the Son of God, place Allah above the God of Abraham, and place all Jews and Christians as infidels to be subjected to the will of Islam, the religion, not of peace, but of subjugation of all other beliefs.
Lots of parallels between LDS and Islam.
Also, why did God make us?
BTTT
a literal pattern following Chirst elevates us to god status by making us sinless
The concept is a heresy plain and simple. The psalm demonstrates that the sin does not pre-date conception.
If pre-existence were true, then the stain of Adam would leave us two options:
1:) If it werent upon us, we would be an equal to Christ.
2.) If it were, the psalmist would be a liar
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
God made man to perform good works and worship Him. In faithfulness to Him, I recognize by His grace He has already revealed to us everything necessary and exactly within the domain of man to understand about the beginning as provided in the Genesis account. Further speculation may place the believer out of fellowship by either adding to what He has provided, or by attempting to elevate oneself above the position God has already placed us.
I find His placement of us to be within His Plan and He is more than sufficient to place us best and better than any other Creature attempting to influence our thinking independent of His protocols.
fproy,
You asked what happened before “In the beginning?”
and Why did God Make us?
First, I can assure you that what happened before the
beginning of earth is not what mormonism teaches - since
what mormonism teaches is non-Biblical.
We know only what God revealed through the Bible as
to those events. No where do we find spirit beings
(meaning future people) running around without their
earth suit, forming a line and crying “I’m next!” or “If
only those mormons would have more babies I’d have
something to wear!!!”
Why did God make us? For His Glory.
Have a great day,
ampu
+++++++++=
I did not ask you what DID NOT HAPPEN, I asked you WHAT HAPPENED.
+++++++++++++=
nice words, but what does “For His Glory” mean to you?
+++++++++++
Before I changed from what people around here keep calling “real Christian” I found that too many understandings of His Word came from too many different Bible followers.
So please, explain what this “grace” you found is to you.
1:) If it werent upon us, we would be an equal to Christ.
++++++++++++++++++=
You need to study more about us.
I have heard this idea told and retold, even though it is not true.
In the preexistence, Christ was the first and the greatest among us. Adam's transgression only has effect on us after we come to this life.
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
+++++++++++
This verse does not speak to what happened before the time this man's mother conceived him.
Stealing your YOMWMP! PING
“I did not ask you what DID NOT HAPPEN, I asked you WHAT HAPPENED.”
Consider that time itself may have also been created ‘in the beginning’ and the question of ‘before the beginning’ is rendered meaningless.
http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Hell-Emanuel-Swedenborg/dp/0877854769/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213821065&sr=1-1
And don't take my word for it, just read this review from a mormon...
Must-read for Mormons, January 15, 2002 By A Customer
As a Mormon, I was fascinated and suprised that this book parallels so well to Mormon scriptures on the afterlife. Although written decades before the birth of Joseph Smith and the founding of Mormonism, Swedenborg describes such Mormon concepts as the "Celestial Kingdom," "Three degrees of glory" and "Celestial Marriage." This book even details other things I thought were unique Mormon teachings like the pre-judgement "Spirit World" existing here on earth and being divided into a Spirit Prison and a Paradise. This is a must-read for Mormons who want to know more about the orgins of the Celestial Kingdom doctrine. Smith admitted he read this book before writing his scriptures on the subject, which explains the parallels. This is a gem of a resource and completely compliments Mormon doctrine on the afterlife. "
fp,
I answered the question that the Bible answers -
not the question you wanted answered, which the
Bible doesn’t address. Sorry, but my crystal ball
is foggy today... and peepstones are selling for
so much these days!
point to Scripture please
actually Ive studied extensively in my pastorate (now retired), and can identify a non Scriptural position when I see it.
I have heard this idea told and retold, even though it is not true.
Its easily discerned.....If you were to exist in a sinless state / condition in which the stain of Adam was not upon us, you (figuratively) would be a lesser God.
Scripture is quite clear that Christ was the only figure in carnal / spiritual duality to be entirely sinless.
Please point to the section of Scripture from which your concept springs.
In the mean time, Ive included both an OT and NT reference
1 Corinthians 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
Genesis 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
These mormonism cult threads are becoming boring. Besides, the mormonism apologists are a protected species at FR, so it might be for useful to ignore them. That drives them crazy, causing them to reveal their actual feelings and the essence of their agenda to promote their cultish beliefs using opposition as a sounding board for their false doctrines, fake scriptures, and peepstone adulterous 'profit's' non-Christian proclamations.
It is service to Satan that seeks to sow doubt and lies regarding the Gospel of Grace in Jesus Christ well revealed in the Bible, in the letters of Paul. Mormonism is a works based religion, which as we know is contrary to the Gospel of God's Grace. [That's the mormonism apologists' cue to now start posting Bible verses which they will spin to their cult's use of creating doubt and negatives as a void maker into which they wish to pour the heresies of mormonism. It's coming, just wait ... they don't even have to be pinged because they're waiting to find cues upon which to pounce with their canned materials.]
“1:) If it werent upon us, we would be an equal to Christ.”
The Bible promises that the faithful will become joint heirs with Christ. The faithful will inherit of the Father the same things Christ inherited.
“2.) If it were, the psalmist would be a liar”
That bit of poetry is open to being interpreted a lot of different ways, such as meaning that we mortals have a weak human nature right from the start that leads us unavoidably to commit sin. The idea that any person other than Adam bears guilt for what Adam did is contrary to the very concept of justice, and I do not believe in an unjust God.
You disagree? Then I dare you to try and make a convincing argument for the idea that holding me guilty for what Adam did is justice.
“God made man to perform good works and worship Him”
Which makes no sense when you stop to think about it. There would be no need for people to do good works before there were people, so the idea that he created us to fulfill a need that didn’t exist before our creation basically says that creation is just a big make work project with no inherent purpose. Like filling a hole by digging another hole just as big. Except in this case a WHOLE lot of pain and suffering happen too. If getting good works done was the main objective, the method seems extremely inefficient, even counterproductive.
And why would God need us to worship Him? Is he some kind of egomaniac? People who live for and need and seek after the praise of others are not people I tend to trust or look up to.
“If you were to exist in a sinless state / condition in which the stain of Adam was not upon us, you (figuratively) would be a lesser God.”
Then by your own words, Adam was a lesser god before the fall. Not only was he sinless, but immortal, and he had dominion over the earth too.
good hearing from you Grig - but youve characterized the question in a manner that qualifies it as either a justice, or injustice.
To suggest it is an injustice is a direct affront to the nature of God, who in all things are perfect..
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
2 Samuel 22:31 "As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
Psalm 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
Job 34:11 He repays a man for what he has done; he brings upon him what his conduct deserves. 12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice. 13 Who appointed him over the earth? Who put him in charge of the whole world?
Job 8:2 "How long will you say such things? Your words are a blustering wind. 3 Does God pervert justice? Does the Almighty pervert what is right? 4 When your children sinned against him, he gave them over to the penalty of their sin.
(JUSTICE !)
yet even more justice - He sent Christ to reconcile our relationship with Him
...all for the price of our repentance and faith
Romans 5: 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
>>nice words, but what does “For His Glory” mean to you?
irrelevant!
The only thing that matters is what HE says it means
in the pages of the BIBLE. I’m assuming you either
have a personal one you can consult or you can go
to BibleGateway.org and find the answer to that
crucial issue.
read the text
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
two different trees
where do you find the concept of Adams immortality ?
Your plainly putting words in my mouth - and if I recollect the new rules, ascribing isnt kosher
And why would God need us to worship Him? Is he some kind of egomaniac? People who live for and need and seek after the praise of others are not people I tend to trust or look up
___________________________________________
All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah. Psalm 66:4
O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. Psalm 95:6
O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth. Psalm 96:9
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
(Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name. Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; For the LORD thy God [is] a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 6:13-15)
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:22-24
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:3
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. Revelation 15:4
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelations 19:10
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Revelations 22:8, 9
“To suggest it is an injustice is a direct affront to the nature of God, who in all things are perfect.”
No, the point is that because the idea requires God to be unjust, that proves the idea is false. Therefore I bear no guilt for Adam’s or anyone else’s sins but my own.
Check out what Paul says in Romans 5. Death did not enter the world until the fall, so Adam was deathless (ie: immortal) prior to the fall. Once he fell he had to be prevented from eating of the tree of life so that he would have a mortal life in which to repent, but he was not forbidden or prevented from eating of the tree of life until AFTER he fell.
Oh, and even if Adam was mortal before the Fall, he was still sinless then and so by your words he would have been a lesser god at that point.
That doesn’t really answer the question. Just because God is and will be praised doesn’t mean God has some need to be praised that motivated him to create beings for the purpose of praising him. If there is any need at work here, it is us who need to praise God, not God needing to be praised.
This then raises the same problem as before, our need to praise God didn’t exist before our existence, so it can’t logically be a motivation for the creation, same as with good works.
>>nice words, but what does “For His Glory” mean to you?
irrelevant!
++++++++++++++++
please share yours
It was a just response to Adams sin. To claim it isnt devalues the Christ event in which we were reconciled.
dude - youre shouting through my words - Im not in disagreement with you here...imagine that
God is not a God of impefection, and for anything to be in complete communion with Him (remember they walked in the same garden) it must be in complete holiness...
that is why he was expelled from the garden
The Christ event allows us to have that cleansing intercessor
Yes, Adam was perfect before the fall....he was in effect a lesser (emphasis) god, as he was created at the Fathers hand
BUT - that was all destroyed with Adams sin
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
2 Samuel 22:31 "As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
2 Samuel 22:33 It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect.
Psalm 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
Psalm 18:32 It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect.
Psalm 50:2 From Zion, perfect in beauty, God shines forth.
Isaiah 25:1 [ Praise to the LORD ] O LORD, you are my God; I will exalt you and praise your name, for in perfect faithfulness you have done marvelous things, things planned long ago.
Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Corinthians 13:11 [ Final Greetings ] Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
Gen 2: 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
it doesnt say he was immortal beforehand.,,,he was merely warned not to eat of it because he will die
now its open to debate if this death would be spiritual or literal or both
I already posted Rom 5, hoping youd read it
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2032615/posts?page=27#27
But look at Genesis first
Genesis 3
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. (READ LESSER GOD) He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Rom 5:12 Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
Adam had the potential to be immortal, prior to the fall, and he had a potential afterwards as well, as evidenced by God booting him out before he ate of that tree, but to say he was immortal beforehand is sloppy exegetically.
insert cricket noise here
F,
I don’t think you get it. Whatever I think
something “means” is irrelevant. The only thing
that actually counts is what it actually says.
As an aside, I realize that mormonism has a low
view of the Bible, so perhaps you are more concerned
with “what it means to you” than what it actually
says and means.
In either case, you could follow the words of
scripture and “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.”
Beware! Once you start down the road of truth, as revealed
in the Bible, you will no longer be able to abide by the
heresies of mormonism.
ampu
I am asking you why you are right, and why your way is more right then all the other people who study the Bible and get something different then you.
Why should I believe you over the thousands of other good people who find different meanings to the word of
God as written in the Bible.
care to find one ?
every human has borne the consequence of Adams sin. The Christ event would not have been necessary to reconcile our relationship with God otherwise.
Imagine that, we could have been wiped off the face of the Earth for disobeying God in the Garden, yet He judged them and then mercifully expelled them from the Garden
To answer your original dare /challenge - That is Justice.....
Romans 5 makes perfect sense in this context
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
death will come to you - it will come to me - we are not immune to it - THAT is the stain of Adam....remember - he had the potential for immortality in the Garden
That potential remains no more -
The justice rests in the fact we werent obliterated
The justice is in a God who sacrificed His only begotton Son so that we may have a relationship with Him.
=+=+=
actually the thoughts were my own and Ive yet to see a Scripture reference supporting the Mormon position
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Forget it, I am tired of talking to people who tell me I am wrong, but will not tell me why thier understanding of the Bible is the correct one, among all the different understandings of other good people, who also study the Bible.
It was after I asked why there was so many opposing ways to be Saved that I started looking which was God's way.
I found that God talks to His children today, through His Prophet.
again - Ive seen no Scriptural evidence to the mormon position.....all Ive seen is obfuscation, and now retreat
The understanding is not my own, but a plain reading of Scripture, sans extra Biblical books.
The canon is closed - God left us the blueprint of salvation in the Holy inerrant Scripture.
have a good day Fred
“As normal around here, you are telling me why I am wrong.”
No offense, but I’ll tell you the obvious... you are usually
wrong. So it is normal to tell you why.
“I am asking you why you are right, and why your way is more
right then all the other people who study the Bible and get
something different then you.”
As usual, I am not telling you why I am right. I am pointing
you to the one source you can find truth - apart from the
words of men. Just you and a copy of the Bible. It will
involve doing something that takes effort.
“Why should I believe you over the thousands of other
good people who find different meanings to the word of
God as written in the Bible.”
You shouldn’t!!!!!
You should go to the Bible and learn how to study to show
yourself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Please never believe me. Believe what God says. Be like
those noble Thessalonicans who went to the Bible to see
if what the Apostle Paul said was true!
best,
ampu
I assume from your freepname that you are a grandmother. Was having sex your #1 motive for getting married? Did you have children because you wanted someone to worship you? I would guess the answer is no in both cases. There is nothing wrong or ungodly with a married man and woman loving each other and raising a family together, nothing wrong with it here, or in the world to come.
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