2 Nephi Chapter 5 of the Book of Mormon - Metals

exmormon ^ | undated | some guy

[Elsie]

Too bad they didn't realize that their slaves planned to steal it.

They DID??

Got any PROOF?

[Elsie]

The story says the slaves "borrowed" the jewelry and then hightailed it out of town.

It DOES??

[Elsie]

It doesn't help things for me that the Exodus occurred during Egypt's Golden Age and intstead of Egypt being brought to its knees by the Exodus, there isn't even a hint that such a thing happened.

Kinda like Japan has no 'history' as to it's Rape of Nanking; or Russian 'history' seems to have holes in it.

[Elsie]

And it only makes sense if you’re moving toward it (and Canaan) from the Iraq area, not Egypt.

How far could YOU wander; if you had 40 years to do it?

[Dog Gone]

You read Exodus 12:35 and tell me what you think it says.

[Alamo-Girl]

Your discussion of the manner whereby Aaron made the golden calf is quite engaging.

So I went looking for more information and found the following webpage which suggests (based on the hieroglyphics) that the ancient Egyptian technology for "melting" gold involved a portable furnace:

Egypt: Science and Chemistry in Ancient Egypt

Gold 

The vast quantities of gold amassed by the Pharaohs were the envy of contemporary and later sovereigns. Though much was imported, received by way of tribute, or captured in warfare, the Egyptian mines themselves were reasonably productive. 

Egyptian Goldsmiths Washing, Melting and Weighing Gold Beni Hasan, 19800 B.C. 

Over one hundred ancient gold workings have been discovered in Egypt and the Sudan, though within the limits of Egypt proper there appear to have been gold mines only in the desert valleys to the east of the Nile near Ikoptos, Ombos and Apollinopolis Magna. Of one of these mines - possibly near Apollinopolis - a plan has been found in a papyrus of the fourteenth century B.C., and the remains of no fewer than 1,300 houses for gold-miners are still to be seen in the Wadi Fawakhir, half-way between Koptos and the Red Sea. In one of the treasure chambers of the temple of Rameses III, at Medinet-Habu, are represented eight large bags, seven of which contained gold and bear the following descriptive labels 

The Egyptian word for gold is nub, which survives in the name Nubia, a country that provided a great deal of the precious metal in ancient days. French Scientist Champollion regarded it as a kind of crucible, while Rossellini and Lepsius preferred to see in it a bag or cloth, with
hanging ends, in which the grains of gold were washed - the radiating lines representing the streams of water that ran through. 

Gold Washing in Ancient Egypt 

Crivelli has more recently advanced the theory that the gold symbol is the conventional sign for a portable furnace used for the fusion of gold, and that the rays represent the flames, which, 'as can be observed in the use of this type of furnace, are unable to ascend because the wind inclines them horizontally'. 

In the later dynasties, the Egyptians themselves forgot the original significance of the sign and drew it as a necklace with pendent beads. Elliot Smith however says that this was the primitive form and became the determinative of Hathor, the Egyptian Aphrodite, who was the guardian of the Eastern valleys where gold was found. 

Egyptian Goldsmith Workshop in the Pyramid Age 

The gold mines in Nubia and other parts of the Egyptian empire seem to have been very efficiently designed and controlled, though with a callous disregard for the human element employed. 

Alluvial auriferous sand was also treated, a distinction being made between the gold obtained in this way and that extracted from the mines. The latter was called nub-en-set, i.e. gold of the mountain, while alluvial gold was named nub-en-mu, i.e. 'gold of the river'. Auriferous
sand was placed in a bag made of a fleece with the woolly side inwards; water was then added and the bag vigorously shaken by two men. When the water was poured off, the earthy particles were carried away, leaving the heavier particles of gold adhering to the fleece. There is a picture of this operation on one of the buildings at Thebes. 

But I haven't yet found any further information on the portable furnace, how it was fueled, etc. If you've heard of such a thing, please let me know.

Also the word "maccekah" for "molten" in Exodus 32:4 does not always mean "cast" - it can also mean a covering or veil, e.g. sheet. And often when it mean "cast" in Scripture, the word is used along with "pĕciyl" for "graven" images. Used in combination, it clarifies the ban on idols, images whether cast or carved.

But in Exodus 32:4, Aaron also used a "cheret" or engraving tool in making the golden calf idol. So it appears the idol was made using both technologies - melting or sheet work and engraving:

And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. - Exodus 32:4

It occurs to me that Aaron may have heated the gold to soften it and then used tools to fashion it like a blacksmith, perhaps even beating it, e.g. hammer. Or perhaps they brought one of those Eqyptian portable furnaces with them along with the fuel?

[Dog Gone]

Okay, let’s assume that the fleeing slaves brought some lumber with them for some reason.

And they somehow fashioned that wood into the shape of a calf. They then pounded earrings into gold leaf plate which wasn’t molten after all.

They got a hammer from the toolbox one thoughtful former slave had brought with him and covered the calf with it and thought it would be fun to worship it.

So how does Aaron’s engraving tool fit into that scenario?

You don’t engrave gold leaf plate.

I understand fully how it is heresy to examine a biblical account, and question whether it makes any sense. Doing that really makes people mad.

I frankly don’t care, because whether or not a solid gold cow was formed in a desert 4,000 years ago is irrelevant to the important questions of salvation, forgiveness, and the spiritual choices we all must make.

Still, I’d like to know what really happened.

[Alamo-Girl]

So how does Aaron’s engraving tool fit into that scenario?

Perhaps he wanted to put eye lashes on the idol? Perhaps he wanted to give it a name? I have no idea.

You don’t engrave gold leaf plate.

I don't see why not. I just Googled it and found a Walther 22PP with factory engraved gold leaf. Of course I don't know if that is 'gold leaf' as in technique or 'gold leaf' as in what is engraved. LOL!

I don't see why an ancient idolater wouldn't want to scratch a message or symbol or especially features onto a gold leafed idol.

If he wants the thing to look "real" he'd probably want to give it eyes or ears or a mouth. Such features appear in ancient art, hieroglyphics, etc.

Still, I’d like to know what really happened.

Indeed. That is why I'm looking into it, i.e. personal curiosity.

[Osage Orange]

If there really was a Mt. Sinai, it would have been somewhere in Saudi Arabia, not a travel stop between Egypt and Israel.

Interestingly enough...I think there is some evidence to support that.

A very interesting book written by Larry Williams..( Surprisely a commodities trader..) called "The Mountain of Moses"...and another written about Larry's travels to that region..called "The Gold of Exodus"...written by Howard Blum.

FWIW-

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

Aw common. Use some common sense.

Do you think these slaves were dumb as posts when they came out of Egypt? they had just spent years building cities out of mud brick and stone.

To make a forge to melt gold all you need is a clay crucible or pot, some mud brick stacked so it has a draft for the fire and some charcoal, all of which they could make on the spot. As for the fuel, there was enough wood for that, after all I doubt they ate their quails raw.

Here is Jeremiah’s take on making gold idols.

Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

(And here the engraving tools)
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Jer 10:5 They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good.

Or maybe these...

Jdg 17:3 And when he had restored the eleven hundred [shekels] of silver to his mother, his mother said, I had wholly dedicated the silver unto the LORD from my hand for my son, to make a graven image and a molten image: now therefore I will restore it unto thee.

Jdg 17:4 Yet he restored the money unto his mother; and his mother took two hundred [shekels] of silver, and gave them to the founder, who made thereof a graven image and a molten image: and they were in the house of Micah.

You are grasping at straws.

[Dog Gone]

I’m really not grasping at straws. There is no reason to believe that there was appropriate fuel in the Sinai desert at that time. There surely isn’t now.

That they had enough to generate a fire with 1500-1700 degree temperatures is very implausible.

Have you ever cooked quail over a 1600 degree fire?

But let’s just say they did. How exactly did Moses burn the golden calf, since gold is not flammable? And then grind it into powder, since gold doesn’t grind into powder? And then force them to drink it since gold is not water soluble?

Who exactly is grasping at straws?

How did Moses write about his own death and events that followed?

Does none of this give you reason to pause?

Why doesn’t it bother you that Egyptian records don’t indicate a slave population, much less one that brought the kingdom to its knees? In fact, during the time period ascribed to Exodus, Egypt was only in the middle of its Golden Age. No hint of 10 plagues or a dead pharaoh chasing slaves.

Why does it bother you that the biblical account is almost certainly wrong? What difference does it make in the overall scheme of things?

[Dog Gone]

Prove to us that you didn't take LSD last year.

There is NO evidence that the Israelites were in Egypt as slaves despite abundant reason to believe that their presence would have been noted somewhere in Egyption records.

There is NO evidence that Egypt was brought to its knees by the 10 plauges. In fact, the evidence is completely contrary to that.

There is NO record of a pharoah and his army drowning in the Red Sea chasing escaping slaves, although such an event would have been noteworthy.

You can't prove you didn't use LSD last year because proving a negative is very difficult. But when there is an utter lack of evidence when some should be expected if the proposition is true, that's conclusive.There are alternative explanations for the story that actually make sense.

[editor-surveyor]

"There is NO evidence that the Israelites were in Egypt as slaves despite abundant reason to believe that their presence would have been noted somewhere in Egyption records"

Pharaohs And Kings by David M. Rohl, 1995 (non-Jew, non-Christian) completely demolishes that idea. It brilliantly exposes the absurd, unscientific biases of secular british archaeologists.

"How did Moses write about his own death and events that followed?"

He didn't, Joshua did, and the scribes correctly included Joshua's completion with Moses writing.

[editor-surveyor]

"... since gold doesn’t grind into powder..."

I have two creeks full of powdered gold; how did it happen?

[MHGinTN]

Your ignorance is only surpassed by your strawman foolishness! ... Have a nice evening.

[Dog Gone]

Wow, your’e persuasive.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***That they had enough to generate a fire with 1500-1700 degree temperatures is very implausible.

Have you ever cooked quail over a 1600 degree fire?***

What is implausable about that? When I was young we heated with old wood stove. The natural draft was so good I threw in a piece of spring steel and pull it out red hot enough I made a knife out of it, pounding it out on a short piece of railroad iron. We also cooked on that stove so both your claims are bogus.

As for Moses, I had a copy of the autobiography of Davy Crockett. The last page was written by someone else as it told of Davy’s death. Same with Moses’ books.

As for the destruction of the statues, if they were wood covered with gold foil burning them and pounding them till they disintegrated and throwing the remains into a creek is entirely possible.

As for the slave population I have seen pictures of the wall carvings with Asiatic Prisoners before the Pharoahs. What did they do with them? Send them to a Gitmo like resort?
There has also been found the remains of a four room Hebrew house in the ruins of one of the treasure cities.

You really should start reading “Bible Archeology Review” more often. You will get both pro and anti views of the captivity in Egypt. They had a nice article on a Golden Calf found in either Ashdod or Ashkelon.

[Dog Gone]

have two creeks full of powdered gold; how did it happen?

Congratulations on your immmense wealth.

Try grinding up a gold American Eagle or Kruggerand using 1600 BC technology and report back how well that went. If you're honest, you'll report back that you have a bowl that is now gold-plated.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***Try grinding up a gold American Eagle or Kruggerand using 1600 BC technology and report back how well that went.***

Why do you think such coins have milled edges? It is so one could tell if an unscrupulous person had GROUND OFF a small part of the edge before passing on the coin with less gold in it.

After doing that to a few dozen coins one would have enough ground off gold to pass off as “found “ gold dust.