Posted on 06/05/2008 8:33:42 AM PDT by sevenbak
JESUS THE CHRIST, by Apostle James E. Talmage (D.Sc.D., Ph.D., F.R.S.E.) is a doctrinal study on the life and ministry of Christ, and is considered by most Mormons as the authoritative treatise on Savior’s mission and message, expounding all scriptures in one on the various aspects of the life of our Redeemer.
CHAPTER 36, IN THE REALM OF DISEMBODIED SPIRITS
Jesus the Christ died in the literal sense in which all men die. He underwent a physical dissolution by which His immortal spirit was separated from His body of flesh and bones, and that body was actually dead. While the corpse lay in Joseph's rock-hewn tomb, the living Christ existed as a disembodied Spirit. We are justified in inquiring where He was and what were His activities during the interval between His death on the cross and His emergence from the sepulchre with spirit and body reunited, a resurrected Soul. The assumption that most naturally suggests itself is that He went where the spirits of the dead ordinarily go; and that, in the sense in which while in the flesh He had been a Man among men, He was, in the disembodied state a Spirit among spirits. This conception is confirmed as a fact by scriptural attestation.
As heretofore shown Jesus Christ was the chosen and ordained Redeemer and Savior of mankind; to this exalted mission He had been set apart in the beginning, even before the earth was prepared as the abode of mankind. Unnumbered hosts who had never heard the gospel, lived and died upon the earth before the birth of Jesus. Of those departed myriads many had passed their mortal probation with varying degrees of righteous observance of the law of God so far as it had been made known unto them, but had died in unblamable ignorance of the gospel; while other multitudes had lived and died as transgressors even against such moiety of God's law to man as they had learned and such as they had professed to obey. Death had claimed as its own all of these, both just and unjust. To them went the Christ, bearing the transcendently glorious tidings of redemption from the bondage of death, and of possible salvation from the effects of individual sin. This labor was part of the Savior's foreappointed and unique service to the human family. The shout of divine exultation from the cross, "It is finished," signified the consummation of the Lord's mission in mortality; yet there remained to Him other ministry to be rendered prior to His return to the Father.
To the penitent transgressor crucified by His side, who reverently craved remembrance when the Lord should come into His kingdom, Christ had given the comforting assurance: "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." The spirit of Jesus and the spirit of the repentant thief left their crucified bodies and went to the same place in the realm of the departed. On the third day following, Jesus, then a resurrected Being, positively stated to the weeping Magdalene: "I am not yet ascended to my Father." He had gone to paradise but not to the place where God dwells. Paradise, therefore, is not Heaven, if by the latter term we understand the abode of the Eternal Father and His celestialized children. Paradise is a place where dwell righteous and repentant spirits between bodily death and resurrection. Another division of the spirit world is reserved for those disembodied beings who have lived lives of wickedness and who remain impenitent even after death. Alma, a Nephite prophet, thus spake of the conditions prevailing among the departed:
Now concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection. Behold, it has been made known unto me, by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body; yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And then shall it come to pass that the spirits of those who are righteous, are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise; a state of rest; a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow, &c. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil; for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house; and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and this because of their own iniquity; being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked: yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful, looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.
While divested of His body Christ ministered among the departed, both in paradise and in the prison realm where dwelt in a state of durance the spirits of the disobedient. To this effect testified Peter nearly three decades after the great event: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
The disobedient who had lived on earth in the Noachian period are especially mentioned as beneficiaries of the Lord's ministry in the spirit world. They had been guilty of gross offenses, and had wantonly rejected the teachings and admonitions of Noah, the earthly minister of Jehovah. For their flagrant sin they had been destroyed in the flesh, and their spirits had endured in a condition of imprisonment, without hope, from the time of their death to the advent of Christ, who came as a Spirit amongst them. We are not to assume from Peter's illustrative mention of the disobedient antediluvians that they alone were included in the blessed opportunities offered through Christ's ministry in the spirit realm; on the contrary, we conclude in reason and consistency that all whose wickedness in the flesh had brought their spirits into the prison house were sharers in the possibilities of expiation, repentance, and release. Justice demanded that the gospel be preached among the dead as it had been and was to be yet more widely preached among the living. Let us consider the further affirmation of Peter, as part of his pastoral admonition to the members of the Primitive Church: "Who Shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit."
That Jesus knew, while yet in the body, that His mission as the universal Redeemer and Savior of the race would not be complete when He came to die is sufficiently demonstrated by His words to the casuistical Jews, following the Sabbath day healing at Bethesda: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." The solemn truth, that through the atonement of Christ salvation would be made possible to the dead as well as to the living, was revealed to the prophets Centuries before the meridian of time. Isaiah was permitted to foresee the fate of the ungodly, and the state prepared for haughty and rebellious offenders against righteousness; but the dread vision was in part brightened by the deliverance that had been provided. "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." To the same mighty prophet was shown the universality of the Savior's atoning victory, as comprising the redemption of Jew and Gentile, living and dead; and convincingly he voiced the word of revelation: "Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."
David, singing the praises of the Redeemer whose dominion should extend even to the souls in hell, shouted in joy at the prospect of deliverance: "Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to See corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."
From these and other scriptures it is evident that the ministry of Christ among the disembodied was foreseen, predicted, and accomplished. The fact that the gospel was preached to the dead necessarily implies the possibility of the dead accepting the same and availing themselves of the saving opportunities thereof. In the merciful providence of the Almighty, provision has been made for vicarious service by the living for the dead, in the ordinances essential to salvation; so that all who in the spirit-world accept the word of God as preached to them, develop true faith in Jesus Christ as the one and only Savior, and contritely repent of their transgressions, Shall be brought under the saving effect of baptism by water for the remission of sins, and be recipients of the baptism of the Spirit or the bestowal of the Holy Ghost. Paul cites the principle and practice of baptism by the living for the dead as proof of the actuality of the resurrection: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" Free agency, the divine birthright of every human soul, will not be annulled by death. Only as the spirits of the dead become penitent and faithful will they be benefited by the vicarious service rendered in their behalf on earth.
Missionary labor among the dead was inaugurated by the Christ; who of us can doubt that it has been continued by His authorized servants, the disembodied, who while in the flesh had been commissioned to preach the gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof through ordination in the Holy Priesthood? That the faithful apostles who were left to build up the Church on earth following the departure of its divine Founder, that other ministers of the word of God ordained to the Priesthood by authority in the Primitive as well as in the Latter-day Church, have passed from ministerial service among mortals to a continuation of Such labor among the disembodied, is so abundantly implied in scripture as to be made a certainty. They are called to follow in the footsteps of the Master, ministering here among the living, and beyond among the dead.
The victory of Christ over death and sin would be incomplete were its effects confined to the Small minority who have heard, accepted, and lived the gospel of salvation in the flesh. Compliance with the laws and ordinances of the gospel is essential to salvation. Nowhere in scripture is a distinction made in this regard between the living and the dead. The dead are those who have lived in mortality upon earth; the living are mortals who yet shall pass through the ordained change which we call death. All are children of the same Father, all to be judged and rewarded or punished by the same unerring justice, with the Same interposition of benign mercy. Christ's atoning sacrifice was offered, not alone for the few who lived upon the earth while He was in the flesh, nor for those who were born in mortality after His death, but for all inhabitants of earth then past, present, and future. He was ordained of the Father to be a judge of both quick and dead; He is Lord alike of living and dead, as men speak of dead and living, though all are to be placed in the same position before Him; there will be but a single class, for all live unto Him. While His body reposed in the tomb, Christ was actively engaged in the further accomplishment of the Father's purposes, by offering the boon of salvation to the dead, both in paradise and in hell.
NOTES TO CHAPTER 36
1. Paradise. -- The scriptures prove that at the time of the final judgment every man will stand before the bar of God, clothed in his resurrected body, and this, irrespective of his condition of righteousness or guilt. While awaiting resurrection, disembodied spirits exist in an intermediate state, of happiness and rest or of suffering and suspense, according to the course they have elected to follow in mortality. Reference to paradise as the abode of righteous spirits between the time of death and that of the resurrection is made by the prophet Nephi (2 Ne. 9:13), by a later prophet of the same name (4 Ne. 14), by Moroni; (Moroni 10:34); as also by Alma whose words are quoted in the text (Alma 40:12, 14). New Testament scripture is of analogous import (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7). The word "paradise" by its derivation through the Greek from the Persian, signifies a pleasant place, or a place of restful enjoyment. (See The Articles of Faith, chap. 21, note 5). By many the terms "hades" and "sheol" are understood to designate the place of departed spirits, comprising both paradise and the prison realm; by others the terms are applied only to the latter, the place of the wicked, which is apart from paradise, the abode of the just.
The assumption that the gracious assurance given by Christ to the penitent sinner on the cross was a remission of the man's sins, and a passport into heaven, is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice. Confidence in the efficacy of death-bed professions and confessions on the basis of this incident is of the most insecure foundation. The crucified malefactor manifested both faith and repentance; his promised blessing was that he should that day hear the gospel preached in paradise; in the acceptance or rejection of the word of life he would be an agent unto himself. The requirement of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel as an essential to salvation was not waived, suspended, or superseded in his case.
2. The Scripture Relating to Christ Among the Spirits in Prison. -- The revised version of 1 Pet. 3:18-20 reads: "Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but quickened in the spirit; in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved through water." This is regarded by scholars as a closer approach to accuracy in translation than the common version. Certain important differences between the two versions will appear to the studious reader. The common version of the latter part of verse 18 and the whole of verse 19 reads: "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened, by the spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison." The revised text expresses the true thought that Christ was quickened, that is to say, was active, in His own spirit state, although His body was inert and in reality dead at the time; and that in that disembodied state He went and preached to the disobedient spirits. The later reading fixes the time of our Lord's ministry among the departed as the interval between His death and resurrection.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 1, INTRODUCTION
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 2, PREEXISTENCE AND FOREORDINATION OF THE CHRIST.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 3, THE NEED OF A REDEEMER.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 4, THE ANTEMORTAL GODSHIP OF CHRIST.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 5, EARTHLY ADVENT OF THE CHRIST PREDICTED.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 6, THE MERIDIAN OF TIME.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 7, GABRIEL'S ANNUNCIATION OF JOHN AND OF JESUS.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 8, THE BABE of BETHLEHEM.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 9, THE BOY OF NAZARETH.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 10, IN THE WILDERNESS OF JUDEA.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 11, FROM JUDEA TO GALILEE.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 12, EARLY INCIDENTS IN OUR LORD'S PUBLIC MINISTRY.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 13, HONORED BY STRANGERS, REJECTED BY HIS OWN.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 14, CONTINUATION OF OUR LORD'S MINISTRY IN GALILEE.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 15, THE LORD OF THE SABBATH.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 16, THE CHOSEN TWELVE.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 17, THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 18, AS ONE HAVING AUTHORITY.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 19, "HE SPAKE MANY THINGS UNTO THEM IN PARABLES".
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 20, "PEACE, BE STILL"- INCIDENTS PRELIMINARY TO THE VOYAGE.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 21, THE APOSTOLIC MISSION, JESUS AGAIN IN NAZARETH.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 22, A PERIOD OF DARKENING OPPOSITION.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 23, THE TRANSFIGURATION.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 24, FROM SUNSHINE TO SHADOW.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 25, JESUS AGAIN IN JERUSALEM.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 26, OUR LORD'S MINISTRY IN PEREA AND JUDEA.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 27, CONTINUATION OF THE PEREAN AND JUDEAN MINISTRY.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 28, THE LAST WINTER AT THE FEAST OF DEDICATION.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 29, ON TO JERUSALEM.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 30, JESUS RETURNS TO THE TEMPLE DAILY.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 31, THE CLOSE OF OUR LORD'S PUBLIC MINISTRY.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 32, FURTHER INSTRUCTION TO THE APOSTLES.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 33, THE LAST SUPPER AND THE BETRAYAL.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 34, THE TRIAL AND CONDEMNATION.
JESUS THE CHRIST - Chapter 35, JESUS THE CHRIST - DEATH AND BURIAL.
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thanks. This one helped me more then the others.
No problem. This is a good one to point folks to whenever there is a “baptism for the dead” discussion.
The assumption that the gracious assurance given by Christ to the penitent sinner on the cross was a remission of the man's sins, and a passport into heaven, is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice.
Regarding the letter and spirit of scripture - Jesus showed during His ministry on earth that He had the power to forgive sin – right there and then. (Luke 5:20; 7:47-48). After spending pages describing Christ’s work, the author of this article here makes it clear with the above statement that Jesus’ words could not be trusted. As God the Son – the Word – His word was scripture, and He proved that His authority over sin was valid when He healed those individuals. The letter and spirit is further clarified in John 3:16-17…. that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. . Thus, Jesus was the living letter and spirit of scripture.
Paul, wrote: "the letter [law] kills, but the Spirit gives life" (1 Cor. 3:6). Jesus said I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly. (John 10:10). The whole letter and spirit of the scripture is wrapped up in these verses as well as dozens of others.
Regarding reason, how reasonable is it to claim to follow the teachings of an individual (in this case – Jesus) and then deny those very same teachings? As pointed out above, Jesus showed over and over again, that He had the authority and the power to do exactly what he told the thief.
Addressing justice, Jesus taught that after death the soul is judged and (at that time) placed in Paradise (for the righteous) or Hell (Luke 16:19-31) with those in Hell not having opportunity to leave for eternity (Mark 9:43). Hebrews 9:27 states And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: where judgment refers to from the greek opinion or decision given concerning anything, esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong. With Jesus’ death on the cross the old Mosaic law was fulfilled – finished – resulting in a new relationship available with God through Christ and a modification to Paradise/Hell. As numerous verses point out, Jesus went into Paradise and removed the righteous waiting there, leaving those in Hell for they had been judged. Jesus paid the requirements of the law in full as is noted by Tenney, in The Expositor's Bible Commentary. John 19:30 -
"The verb teleo (to finish) was used in the first and second centuries in the sense of 'fulfilling' or 'paying' a debt and often appeared in receipts. Jesus' statement, 'It is finished' could be interpreted as 'Paid in full'.." Also see Moulten and Milligen, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament (P. 630).
Justice was met in full, no further act was required. Now through Christ we can say
1 Cor 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Confidence in the efficacy of death-bed professions and confessions on the basis of this incident is of the most insecure foundation. The crucified malefactor manifested both faith and repentance; his promised blessing was that he should that day hear the gospel preached in paradise; in the acceptance or rejection of the word of life he would be an agent unto himself. The requirement of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel as an essential to salvation was not waived, suspended, or superseded in his case.
Often Christians are called judgmental because we take Jesus’ words literally, and that those who die without Him are doomed, however we show far greater grace here than the author. Jesus addressed the issue about death-bed professions in one instance using the parable found in MT 20:1-16 focusing on …..14) Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15) Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’….
That the thief was operating by faith is made clear in Acts and Romans
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
There are no precursors requirements of works or ordinances to be found in these verses.
There is no support provided by Talmage to show that Jesus was restrained in His legal and lawful ability and authority to forgive the sin of the thief OR that Jesus was unable to make good His promise of eternal life. Furthermore, there is no support in the article that a life time of laws and ordinances of the gospel were even valid to begin with for the thief since Jesus died before the thief! For what the Mosaic law made clear was that as James wrote: "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" (James 2:10). To this we add Paul's words in Romans 3:20: "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather through the law we become conscious of sin," and in Galatians 3:24: "The law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24). So it is evident that there was absolutely NOTHING that the man (or any other to date) could do to obtain salvation by their own works. We are as terminally separated from God as that thief. BUT he was justified by Christ through faith.
God intervened -
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
God knew that the sacrificial system under the Mosaic law could only be temporary with those found righteous under it prior to Christ residing in Paradise. God showed even during the period of the Mosaic law (while we were yet sinners) that the Mosaic law was not sufficient or what He desired.
Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
But He showed here what He really wanted of man -
Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Because of Christ, we no longer have to rely upon works of the law. As Paul wrote to the Romans –
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Paul stripped away any illusion to the argument that works were capable of removing sin – nothing could justify us. But that wasn’t the final word -
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Note – without law – the old covenant of the Mosaic law (ie laws and ordinances) is no longer in effect. God instituted something NEW.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
This new law of righteousness is administered to all them that believe: by faith – not works. Thus this was available to the thief on the cross at that very moment – with the limited faith he had, it was enough for Jesus for Him to confirm his arrival at Paradise and later to accompany Him to heaven. Paul continues -
Rom 3:23-24 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Being justified, from the greek - to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Freely, from the greek – undeservedly – no prerequisites
Grace, from the greek - 1) grace
a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2) good will, loving-kindness, favor
a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3) what is due to grace
a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
1) a gift of grace
2) benefit, bounty
4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favors), recompense, reward
If the face of the Gospel presented above (and Paul goes in to greater detail throughout the rest of Romans) that in reality it is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice to believe that the thief did not receive a guarantee the he would be with Jesus in heaven.
Ephesian 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The savior's phrase to the thief was short, and didn't include everything definitive on the subject. The other scriptures make it pretty clear.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Cheers
Then please, let us see these other bible scriptures, since as a significantly different view is indicated above, I would be interested in this.
Talmage listed them in the thread.
Talmage only reference that Jesus promised the thief he would be in Paradise with Him. There is nothing in the article that is related to his assertions that "The assumption that the gracious assurance given by Christ to the penitent sinner on the cross was a remission of the man's sins, and a passport into heaven, is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice."
I would like to see some from the bible to support that.
Where did the thief go? Was it where heaven is, or where God the Father dwells? Christ said he would be with him “today” in Paradise. And yet, 3 days later, he told Mary “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father”
Where was the Christ during that time?
Read the Chapter again. Especially the references to 1 Peter.
"The assumption that the gracious assurance given by Christ to the penitent sinner on the cross was a remission of the man's sins, and a passport into heaven, is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice."
I would like to see where that support is - thank you.
"The assumption that the gracious assurance given by Christ to the penitent sinner on the cross was a remission of the man's sins, and a passport into heaven, is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice. Confidence in the efficacy of death-bed professions and confessions on the basis of this incident is of the most insecure foundation. The crucified malefactor manifested both faith and repentance; his promised blessing was that he should that day hear the gospel preached in paradise; in the acceptance or rejection of the word of life he would be an agent unto himself. The requirement of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel as an essential to salvation was not waived, suspended, or superseded in his case.
2. The Scripture Relating to Christ Among the Spirits in Prison. — The revised version of 1 Pet. 3:18-20 reads: “Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but quickened in the spirit; in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved through water.” This is regarded by scholars as a closer approach to accuracy in translation than the common version. Certain important differences between the two versions will appear to the studious reader. The common version of the latter part of verse 18 and the whole of verse 19 reads: “being put to death in the flesh, but quickened, by the spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.” The revised text expresses the true thought that Christ was quickened, that is to say, was active, in His own spirit state, although His body was inert and in reality dead at the time; and that in that disembodied state He went and preached to the disobedient spirits. The later reading fixes the time of our Lord's ministry among the departed as the interval between His death and resurrection."
To the penitent transgressor crucified by His side, who reverently craved remembrance when the Lord should come into His kingdom, Christ had given the comforting assurance: “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” The spirit of Jesus and the spirit of the repentant thief left their crucified bodies and went to the same place in the realm of the departed. On the third day following, Jesus, then a resurrected Being, positively stated to the weeping Magdalene: “I am not yet ascended to my Father.” He had gone to paradise but not to the place where God dwells. Paradise, therefore, is not Heaven, if by the latter term we understand the abode of the Eternal Father and His celestialized children. Paradise is a place where dwell righteous and repentant spirits between bodily death and resurrection. Another division of the spirit world is reserved for those disembodied beings who have lived lives of wickedness and who remain impenitent even after death. Alma, a Nephite prophet, thus spake of the conditions prevailing among the departed:
Now concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection. Behold, it has been made known unto me, by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body; yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And then shall it come to pass that the spirits of those who are righteous, are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise; a state of rest; a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow, &c. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil; for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house; and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and this because of their own iniquity; being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked: yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful, looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.
While divested of His body Christ ministered among the departed, both in paradise and in the prison realm where dwelt in a state of durance the spirits of the disobedient. To this effect testified Peter nearly three decades after the great event: “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
With all due respect, there is nothing here that remotely resembles quote mining, but have asked a simple question regarding what support Talmage has provided for this specific statement you reposted and I'll place again below:
"The assumption that the gracious assurance given by Christ to the penitent sinner on the cross was a remission of the man's sins, and a passport into heaven, is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice.
What you have provided is just a repeat of what I've already asked about - it is a non-answer. The paragraph item #2 (discussing 1 Peter) does not address the preceding paragraph at all. All that I am asking for is what I thought you had available when you answered me here
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2026488/posts?page=6#6
Since you are simply repeating the same material doesn't answer my question - from where in the bible does he get that interpretation? Talmage does not provide any biblical references to explain his interpretation and 1 Peter doesn't cover it either.
We will agree to disagree.
The only thing that I see here it that Talmage disagrees with himself, but provides no further biblical scriptures to clarify his teachings.
Now concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection. Behold, it has been made known unto me, by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body; yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
Is the above considered to be doctrine of the mormon church?
So are you saying that there is nothing further than what is (or isn't) in the article to support Talmage's position?
1 Now my son, here is somewhat more I would say unto thee; for I perceive that thy mind is worried concerning the resurrection of the dead.
2 Behold, I say unto you, that there is no resurrection—or, I would say, in other words, that this mortal does not put on immortality, this corruption does not put on incorruption—until after the coming of Christ.
3 Behold, he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead. But behold, my son, the resurrection is not yet. Now, I unfold unto you a mystery; nevertheless, there are many mysteries which are kept, that no one knoweth them save God himself. But I show unto you one thing which I have inquired diligently of God that I might know—that is concerning the resurrection.
4 Behold, there is a time appointed that all shall come forth from the dead. Now when this time cometh no one knows; but God knoweth the time which is appointed.
5 Now, whether there shall be one time, or a second time, or a third time, that men shall come forth from the dead, it mattereth not; for God bknoweth all these things; and it sufficeth me to know that this is the case—that there is a time appointed that all shall rise from the dead.
6 Now there must needs be a space betwixt the time of death and the time of the resurrection.
7 And now I would inquire what becometh of the souls of men from this time of death to the time appointed for the resurrection?
8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.
9 Therefore, there is a time appointed unto men that they shall rise from the dead; and there is a space between the time of death and the resurrection. And now, concerning this space of time, what becometh of the souls of men is the thing which I have inquired diligently of the Lord to know; and this is the thing of which I do know.
10 And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man.
11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.
15 Now, there are some that have understood that this state of happiness and this state of misery of the soul, before the resurrection, was a first resurrection. Yea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection, the raising of the spirit or the soul and their consignation to happiness or misery, according to the words which have been spoken.
16 And behold, again it hath been spoken, that there is a first resurrection, a resurrection of all those who have been, or who are, or who shall be, down to the resurrection of Christ from the dead.
17 Now, we do not suppose that this first resurrection, which is spoken of in this manner, can be the resurrection of the souls and their consignation to happiness or misery. Ye cannot suppose that this is what it meaneth.
18 Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but it meaneth the reuniting of the soul with the body, of those from the days of Adam down to the resurrection of Christ.
19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass before the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.
20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.
21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.
22 Yea, this bringeth about the restoration of those things of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets.
23 The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.
24 And now, my son, this is the restoration of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets—
25 And then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.
26 But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup.
I don't expect you to agree with any LDS doctrine. Why start now?
Very poorly footnoted, but w/e. I understand the points that Talmage (and Alma 40) are making (condensed) - person dies, if righteous goes to paradise, unrighteous are placed into a place of wailing and gnashing of teach, etc (Hell). Pending resurrection of course, when judged again and the righteous finally get to shine forth in the kingdom of God. With this understood, how does this support Talmage's statement below?
"The assumption that the gracious assurance given by Christ to the penitent sinner on the cross was a remission of the man's sins, and a passport into heaven, is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice.
And from post #40
I don't expect you to agree with any LDS doctrine. Why start now?
Agree or not, I am simply giving you an opportunity to clarify lds doctrine in regards to the article you have posted and the comment by the author of the article within the context of this forum. I am aware that Talmage is highly regarded for his intellect by mormonism and his reasoning may be difficult to reproduce - but where in the bible is his assumption (posted above) drawn from?
Thanks for your input on this thread.
I believe I was very clear in my question regarding lds teaching from Talmage on this point of his article:
"The assumption that the gracious assurance given by Christ to the penitent sinner on the cross was a remission of the man's sins, and a passport into heaven, is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice."
What passage from the bible (or even using Alma 40) did he use to come to this conclusion as this appears to be a significant point of mormon doctrine. At this point I am simply asking for this to clarify Talmage's presentation of mormon doctrine. If this is not mormon doctrine, please clarify that too. Thanks.
D&C 76
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwords received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
Further, an even better reference to this doctrine can be found here. One should read it in it's entirety, not a snippet.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/138
I'm off to have some family time and won't be on again this evening.
Cheers.
So please do provide bible passages and expository interpretation. Regarding D&C citation - thank you but please address how it clarifies mormon teaching on the following:
"The assumption that the gracious assurance given by Christ to the penitent sinner on the cross was a remission of the man's sins, and a passport into heaven, is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice."
That there is at that time a paradise and a hell for the righteous and unrighteous I understand. But D&C does not make clear mormon doctrine on this point. Please clarify mormon doctrine on these points p
1. Did Jesus lie to the thief by telling him he would be in Paradise with Him?
2. If (rhetorical) what Jesus said was the truth and a promise, according to the bible, how is it contrary to the points listed by Talmage above?
sigh. I don't see the point in discussing this further. Obviously you don't s see our scriptural references and think I say Christ lied. Nothing could be further from the truth.
If you can tell me where Christ was for the 3 days prior to his resurrection, where he specifically says to Mary "I have not yet ascended to my Father" Then we can talk further. Obviously, where Jesus and the thief were that first day was not where Jesus went 3 days later (with the Father). From those two scriptures alone, we know that paradise is not where the Father dwells, or heaven. I've a busy day, so I won't be "discussing" this till late tonight, if you want to continue.
Day 1.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Day 3.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Reading the mind of another poster is a form of "making it personal."
7, I have never made WHERE Jesus was during that time a part of my discourse or questions.
Obviously you don't s see our scriptural references and think I say Christ lied.
Please note from my posts - I never said you were lying. My questions focused on whether Jesus lied to him based upon the statement by Talmage:
The assumption that the gracious assurance given by Christ to the penitent sinner on the cross was a remission of the man's sins, and a passport into heaven, is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice.
Therefore - I have asked clarifying questions in this regard and I'll have to expand upon it further below since your responses have not addressed them.
Are you agreeing that the thief went to Paradise that day with Jesus - Y or N?
Does Jesus have the power and authority to forgive sin and make one righteous Y or N?
From Alma 40 - the righteous go to Paradise - is this true or false?
Since the souls in Paradise are judged to be righteous - else they would not be permitted to enter there, would they be judged unrighteous at the resurrection? (Alma 40)
What kingdom is being refered to in Alma 40:25 - ....righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God. Is this heaven?
Do the righteous go to heaven?
Do not badger the witness.
This thread - although it pushes the envelope of ecumenism - so far does a good job of presenting both sides to a lurker passing by without all the "noise" of an open thread.
I'd like to keep it that way.
.... I won't be "discussing" this till late tonight, if you want to continue.
Didn't sound like it was a walk away.
Out of curiosity - how is this thread pushing the envelope, apart from your previous and current post to me?
I’ve been following this ecumenic discussion, and one thing come to mind.
If the original poster will not, or cannot discuss the claims contained in the thread, is it truly ecumenic? It almost seems as if the original poster has abandoned the thread.
The topic of this thread is contentious toward mainstream Christian thought. While only polite discussion is allowed, it seems the original poster doesn’t want to be involved in discussing his thread at all.
Just an observation.
The replies have been as aggressive as they can be without becoming antagonist. For all of these reasons, I consider the thread to be pushing the envelope - and not in a bad way, because it is a good test of the "ecumenic" tag.
There is no requirement that the poster of the article must respond to the replies. I am however glad to see article posters attempt to keep the discussion moving.
Interesting, if the goal is to encourage non-antagonistic discourse - is if fruitful to the goal of this venue for the poster to abandon the article and refuse clarification/discourse? Doesn't the act of posting the article to begin with indicate a degree of willingness to engage in dialogue and not try to dismiss (or walk away from) one who is trying to do that within the constraints of the forum?
The replies have been as aggressive as they can be without becoming antagonist. For all of these reasons, I consider the thread to be pushing the envelope - and not in a bad way, because it is a good test of the "ecumenic" tag.
Thank you for this information. From my other posts with you, you know already that I am relatively skeptical about the constraints placed upon this venue. However, my posts here have been designed to apply those rules. I don't mind being a guinea pig. However, please consider again = from the shear weight of mass of these posted articles, it is difficult to address all the issues raised in a positive manner. Hence, posting entire chapters from a book is not beneficial to the process.
If you desire, I see that discussion has been moved here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2025842/posts?page=1080#1080
We can continue the discussion there if you wish.
Obviously you don’t s see our scriptural references and think I say Christ lied. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Could Sevenbak had rephrase the as a question?
Are you saying you don’t s see our scriptural references and think I say Christ lied?
I didn’t address you at all.
I wonder who you are RM?
a different vibe!
I did not say you did address me RM I was asking clarification in how and if a sentence could be re-phrased as a question!
That way it is not making it person!
correctiion heat wave in NYC!:)
That way it is not making it personal!
Thank you it is 102 degrees here soon I will have my AC installed!:)
On the subject of taglines...................
Drop the tagline.
But it's extremely important to this discussion, and your question. If you want to know the LDS position, you need to answer that question. Where was Christ between death and the resurrection? To understand where we believe Paradise is, and thus to delve into Talmage's statement, one must acknowledge what Talmage is referring to.
re you agreeing that the thief went to Paradise that day with Jesus - Y or N?
Yes
From Alma 40 - the righteous go to Paradise - is this true or false?
True
And yes to the rest as well.
The problem is, we are again talking past each other. Alma 40 is a marvelous discourse on the doctrine of the resurrection. The concern here with your question seems to be about the final state of mankind, which is different than many Christian notions of heaven and hell. Many assume that the state of the soul after death is also the final state of man. This notion fails to take into account the importance of the resurrection and the reality that the rewards for the resurrected are different than the rewards for the disembodied spirits.
I guess this poses another question to you... What happens to the soul after the resurrection? Does it go back to the same ‘heaven’ it just came from or does it go to some other place?” You mention Alma 40:25. A similar reference is Alma 40:11.
"The spirits of all men…are taken home to that God who gave them life"
In Ecclesiastes, we read the same doctrine about death, Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it (Eccl 12:7).
Here, we could get into another whole discussion about the pre-existence, and what it means to "return", but I digress, one topic at a time. Perhaps another thread.
Life goes on. I'm just glad I don't need a lot of sleep as I look at the clock.
Your observation.
There will be no pleasing everyone, in every religion. To many differences.
That said, I'm not sure how these threads are pushing the envelope. Yes, there are some differences in doctrine and understanding of the life of Christ, but His life and His mission is celebrated by all of us, as the Savior of Mankind. We can all pick at gnats, but it's His life we worship, albeit differently.
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