Posted on 05/19/2008 5:54:59 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
CHARACTER AND BEING OF GOD-CREATION-
SALVATION OF THE DEAD-THE UNPARDONABLE SIN-
RESURRECTION-BAPTISM OF THE SPIRIT, ETC.
"KING FOLLETT DISCOURSE"
A Discourse, by President Joseph Smith,
delivered at the Conference held near the Temple,
in Nauvoo, April 6, 1844.
REPORTED BY W. RICHARDS, W. WOODRUFF,
T. BULLOCK, AND W. CLAYTON.
6:1
Beloved Saints,-I will call the attention of this congregation while I address you on the subject of the dead. The decease of our beloved brother, Elder King Follett, who was crushed in a well by the falling of a tub of rock, has more immediately led me to that subject. I have been requested to speak by his friends and relatives; but inasmuch as there are a great many in this congregation who live in this city, as well as elsewhere, who have lost friends, I feel disposed to speak on the subject in general, and offer you my ideas so far as I have ability and so far as I shall be inspired by the Holy Spirit to dwell on this subject.
I want your prayers and faith that I may have the instruction of Almighty God and the gift of the Holy Ghost, so that I may set forth things that are true and which can be easily comprehended by you, and that the testimony may carry conviction to your hearts and minds of the truth of what I shall say. Pray that the Lord may strengthen my lungs, stay the winds, and let the prayers of the Saints to heaven appear, that they may enter into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth; for the effectual prayers of the righteous avail much. There is strength here; and I verily believe that your prayers will be heard.
Before I enter fully into the investigation of the subject which is lying before me, I wish to pave the way and bring up the subject from the beginning, that you may understand it. I will make a few preliminaries, in order that you may understand the subject when I come to it. I do not calculate or intend to please your ears with superfluity of words, or oratory, or with much learning; but I calculate to edify you with the simple truths from heaven.
In the first place, I wish to go back to the beginning-to the morn of creation. There is the starting-point for us to look to, in order to understand and be fully acquainted with the mind, purposes, and decrees of the great Eloheim, who sits in yonder heavens as he did at the creation of this world. It is necessary for us to have an understanding of God himself in the beginning. If we start right, it is easy to go right all the time; but if we start wrong, we may go wrong, and it will be a hard matter to get right.
There are but a very few beings in the world who understand rightly the character of God. The great majority of mankind do not comprehend anything, either that which is past or that which is to come, as respects their relationship to God. They do not know, neither do they understand the nature of that relationship; and, consequently, they know but little above the brute beast, or more than to eat, drink, and sleep. This is all man knows about God or his existence, unless it is given by the inspiration of the Almighty.
If a man learns nothing more than to eat, drink, and sleep, and does not comprehend any of the designs of God, the beast comprehends the same thing. It eats, drinks, sleeps, and knows nothing more about God: yet it knows as much as we, unless we are able to comprehend by the inspiration of Almighty God. If men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend themselves. I want to go back to the beginning, and so lift your minds into a more lofty sphere and a more exalted understanding than what the human mind generally aspires to.
I want to ask this congregation-every man, woman, and child, to answer the question in their own heart, what kind of a being God is? Ask yourselves; turn your thoughts into your hearts, and say if any of you have seen, heard, or communed with him. This is a question that may occupy your attention for a long time. I again repeat the question-What kind of a being is God? Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen him, heard him, or communed with him? Here is the question that will peradventure from this time henceforth occupy your attention. The Scriptures inform us that "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."
If any man does not know God, and inquires what kind of a being he is,-if he will search diligently his own heart-if the declarations of Jesus and the Apostles be true-he will realize that he has not eternal life; for there can be eternal life on no other principle.
My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of a being he is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations, inspirations, or to be a Prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world-a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life. But if all religious teachers were honest enough to renounce their pretensions to godliness, when their ignorance of the knowledge of God is made manifest, they will all be as badly off as I am, at any rate; and you might just as well take the lives of other false teachers as that of mine, if I am false. If any man is authorized to take away my life because he thinks and says I am a false teacher, then, upon the same principle, we should be justified in taking away the life of every false teacher; and where would be the end of blood? and who would not be the sufferer?
But meddle not with any man for his religion; and all governments ought to permit every man to enjoy his religion unmolested. No man is authorized to take away life in consequence of difference of religion, which all laws and governments ought to tolerate and protect, right or wrong. Every man has a natural and, in our country, a constitutional right to be a false prophet as well as a true prophet. If I show, verily, that I have the truth of God, and show that ninety-nine out of every hundred professing religious ministers are false teachers, having no authority, while they pretend to hold the keys of God's kingdom on earth, and was to kill them because they are false teachers, it would deluge the whole world with blood.
I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with him; and if I can bring you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am his servant; for I speak as one having authority.
I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man.
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,-I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.
In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.
These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"-to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious-in a manner, to lay down his body and take up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.
Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,-namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one,-from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.
These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation; and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said.
When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel: you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the vail before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world: it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I did, I think there are so many over-wise men here, that they would cry "treason" and put me to death. So I will go to the old Bible and turn commentator to-day.
I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible. I will make a comment on the very first sentence of the history of creation in the Bible-Berosheit. I want to analyze the word. Baith-in, by, through, and everything else. Rosh-the head. Sheit-grammatical termination. When the inspired man wrote it, he did not put the Baith there. An old Jew, without any authority, added the word. He thought it too bad to begin to talk about the head! It read first, "The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods." That is the true meaning of the words. Baurau signifies to bring forth. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the learned man of God. Learned men can teach you no more than what I have told you. Thus, the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council.
I will transpose and simplify it in the English language. Oh, ye lawyers, ye doctors, and ye priests, who have persecuted me, I want to let you know that the Holy Ghost knows something as well as you do. The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. The grand counsellors sat at the head in yonder heavens, and contemplated the creation of the worlds which were created at that time. When I say doctors and lawyers, I mean the doctors and lawyers of the Scriptures. I have done so hitherto without explanation, to let the lawyers flutter, and everybody laugh at them. Some learned doctor might take a notion to say the Scriptures say thus and so; and we must believe the Scriptures; they are not to be altered. But I am going to show you an error in them.
I have an old edition of the New Testament in the Hebrew, Latin, German, and Greek languages. I have been reading the German, and find it to be the most correct translation, and to correspond nearest to the revelations which God has given to me for the last fourteen years. It tells about Jachoboy, the son of Zebedee. It means Jacob. In the English New Testament it is translated James. Now, if Jacob had the keys, you might talk about James through all eternity, and never get the keys. In the 21st verse of the fourth chapter of Matthew, my old German edition gives the word Jacob instead of James.
The doctors (I mean doctors of law, not of physic,) say, "If you preach anything not according to the Bible, we will cry treason." How can we escape the damnation of hell, except God be with us and reveal to us? Men bind us with chains. The Latin says Jachabod, which means Jacob; the Hebrew says Jacob, the Greek says Jacob, and the German says Jacob. Here we have the testimony of four against one. I thank God I have got this old book; but I thank him more for the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have got the oldest book in the world; but I have got the oldest book in my heart, even the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have all the four Testaments. Come here, ye learned men, and read, if you can. I should not have introduced this testimony, were it not to back up the word Rosh-the head, the father of the Gods. I should not have brought it up, only to show that I am right.
In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. When we begin to learn in this way, we begin to learn the only true God and what kind of a being we have got to worship. Having a knowledge of God, we begin to know how to approach him and how to ask so as to receive an answer.
When we understand the character of God and know how to come to him, he begins to unfold the heavens to us and to tell us all about it. When we are ready to come to him, he is ready to come to us.
Now, I ask all who hear me, why the learned men who are preaching salvation say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? The reason is, that they are unlearned in the things of God and have not the gift of the Holy Ghost. They account it blasphemy in any one to contradict their idea. If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does, anyhow; and he is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him. You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing; and they will answer, "Don't the Bible say he created the world?" And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize-the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos-chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed: they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end.
I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man. But it is impossible for me to say much on this subject. I shall, therefore, just touch upon it; for time will not permit me to say all. It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead-namely, the soul, the mind of man, the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning. But it is not so. The very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine. I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don't believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. I will make a man appear a fool before I get through, if he does not believe it. I am going to tell of things more noble.
We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Referred to the old Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, "God made man out of the earth, and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body-"
The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.
I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal with our Father in heaven.
I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man-on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man-the immortal part, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two, then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it bad a beginning it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.
Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.
The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.
This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and I rejoice more and more.
I want to talk more of the relation of man to God. I will open your eyes in relation to your dead. All things whatsoever God of his infinite wisdom has seen fit and proper to reveal to us, while we are dwelling in mortality, in regard to our mortal bodies, are revealed to us in the abstract and independent of affinity of this mortal tabernacle; but are revealed to our spirits precisely as though we had no bodies at all; and those revelations which will save our spirits will save our bodies. God reveals them to us in view of no eternal dissolution of the body, or tabernacle. Hence the responsibility-the awful responsibility that rests upon us in relation to our dead; for all the spirits who have not obeyed the Gospel in the flesh must either obey it in the spirit or be damned. Solemn thought!-dreadful thought! Is there nothing to be done? No preparation-no salvation for our fathers and friends who have died without having had the opportunity to obey the decrees of the Son of Man? Would to God that I had forty days and nights in which to tell you-all! I would let you know that I am not a "fallen prophet."
What promises are made in relation to the subject of the salvation of the dead? and what kind of characters are those who can be saved, although their bodies are mouldering and decaying in the grave? When his commandments teach us, it is in view of eternity; for we are looked upon by God as though we were in eternity. God dwells in eternity, and does not view things as we do.
The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead. The Apostle says, "They without us cannot be made perfect;" for it is necessary that the sealing power should be in our hands to seal our children and our dead for the fullness of the dispensation of times-a dispensation to meet the promises made by Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world for the salvation of man.
Now, I will speak of them. I will meet Paul half-way. I say to you, Paul, you cannot be perfect without us. It is necessary that those who are gone before and those who come after us should have salvation in common with us; and thus hath God made it obligatory upon man. Hence God said, "I will send Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord; and he shall turn the hearts of the father to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
I have a declaration to make as to the provisions which God hath made to suit the conditions of man, made from before the foundation of the world. What has Jesus said? All sins, and all blasphemies, and every transgression, except one, that man can be guilty of, may be forgiven; and there is a salvation for all men, either in this world or the world to come, who have not committed the unpardonable sin, there being a provision, either in this world or the world of spirits. Hence God hath made a provision that every spirit in the eternal world can be ferreted out and saved, unless he has committed that unpardonable sin which cannot be remitted to him either in this world or the world of spirits. God has wrought out a salvation for all men, unless they have committed a certain sin; and every man who has a friend in the eternal world can save him, unless he has committed the unpardonable sin. And so you can see how far you can be a saviour.
A man cannot commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, and there is a way possible for escape. Knowledge saves a man; and in the world of spirits no man can be exalted but by knowledge. So long as a man will not give heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. If a man has knowledge, he can be saved; although, if he has been guilty of great sins, he will be punished for them. But when he consents to obey the Gospel, whether here or in the world of spirits, he is saved.
A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man.
I know the Scriptures and understand them. I said no man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, nor in this life until he receives the Holy Ghost; but they must do it in this world. Hence the salvation of Jesus Christ was wrought out for all men in order to triumph over the Devil; for if it did not catch him in one place, it would in another; for he stood up as a Saviour. All will suffer until they obey Christ himself.
The contention in heaven was-Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the Devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favour of Jesus Christ. So the Devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him.
All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me; he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the Devil-the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life,-the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance: they make open war like the Devil, and awful is the consequence.
I advise all of-you to be careful what you do, or you may by-and-by find out that you have been deceived. Stay yourselves; do not give way; don't make any hasty moves: you may be be saved. If a spirit of bitterness is in you, don't be in haste. You may say that man is a sinner. Well, if he repents, he shall be forgiven. Be cautious: await! When you find a spirit that wants bloodshed-murder, the same is not of God, but is of the Devil. Out of the abundance of the heart of man the mouth speaketh.
The best men bring forth the best works. The man who tells you words of life is the man who can save you. I warn you against all evil characters who sin against the Holy Ghost; for there is no redemption for them in this world nor in the world to come.
I could go back and trace every subject of interest concerning the relationship of man to God, if I had time. I can enter into the mysteries; I can enter largely into the eternal worlds; for Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14th chap., 2nd v.) Paul says, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." (1st Cor. 15th chap., 4lst v.) What have we to console us in relation to the dead? We have reason to have the greatest hope and consolations for our dead of any people on the earth; for we have seen them walk worthily in our midst, and seen them sink asleep in the arms of Jesus; and those who have died in the faith are now in the celestial kingdom of God. And hence is the glory of the sun.
You mourners have occasion to rejoice (speaking of the death of Elder King Follett); for your husband and father is gone to wait until the resurrection of the dead-until the perfection of the remainder; for at the resurrection your friend will rise in perfect felicity and go to celestial glory, while many must wait myriads of years before they can receive the like blessings; and your expectations and hopes are far above what man can conceive; for why has God revealed it to us?
I AM AUTHORIZED to say, by the authority of the Holy Ghost, that you have no occasion to fear; for he is gone to the home of the just. Don't mourn; don't weep. I know it by the testimony of the Holy Ghost that is within me; and you may wait for your friends to come forth to meet you in the morn of the celestial world.
Rejoice, O Israel! Your friends who have been murdered for the truth's sake in the persecution shall triumph gloriously in the celestial world, while their murderers shall welter for ages in torment, even until they shall have paid the uttermost farthing. I say this for the benefit of strangers.
I have a father, brothers, children, and friends who have gone to a world of spirits. They are only absent for a moment. They are in the spirit, and we shall soon meet again. The time will soon arrive when the trumpet shall sound. When we depart, we shall hail our mothers, fathers, friends, and all whom we love who have fallen asleep in Jesus. There will be no fear of mobs, persecutions, or malicious law-suits and arrests; but it will be an eternity of felicity.
A question may be asked-"Will mothers have their children in eternity?" Yes! yes! Mothers, you shall have your children; for they shall have eternal life; for their debt is paid. There is no damnation awaits them, for they are in the spirit. But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead, and be for ever living in the learning of God. It will never grow: it will still be the child, in the same precise form as it appeared before it died out of its mother's arms, but possessing all the intelligence of a God. Children dwell in the mansions of glory and exercise power, but appear in the same form as when on earth. Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, with not one cubit added to their stature.
I will leave this subject here, and make a few remarks on the subject of baptism. The baptism of water, without the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost attending it, is of no use: they are necessary and inseparably connected. An individual must be born of water and the spirit in order to get into the kingdom of God. In the German, the text bears me out the same as the revelations which I have given and taught for the last fourteen years on that subject. I have the testimony to put in their teeth. My testimony has been true all the time. You will find it in the declaration of John the Baptist. (Reads from the German.) John says, "I baptise you with water; but when Jesus comes, who has the power (or keys), he shall administer the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost." Great God! where is now all the sectarian world? And if this testimony is true, they are all damned as clearly as anathema can do it. I know the text is true. I call upon all you Germans who know that it is true to say aye. (Loud shouts of aye.)
Alexander Campbell, how are you going to save people with water alone? For John said his baptism was good for nothing without the baptism of Jesus Christ. "Therefore, not leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit." (Heb. 6th chap., 1st to 3rd v.)
There is one God, one Father, one Jesus, one hope of our calling, one baptism. All these three baptisms only make one. Many talk of baptism not being essential to salvation: but this kind of teaching would lay the foundation of their damnation. I have the truth, and am at the defiance of the world to contradict me if they can.
I have now preached a little Latin, a little Hebrew, Greek, and German; and I have fulfilled all. I am not so big a fool as many have taken me to be. The Germans know that I read the German correctly.
Hear it, all ye ends of the earth-all ye priests, all ye sinners, and all men. Repent! repent! Obey the Gospel. Turn to God; for your religion won't save you, and you will be damned. I do not say how long. There have been remarks made concerning all men being redeemed from hell; but I say that those who sin against the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven in this world or in the world to come: they shall die the second death. Those who commit the unpardonable sin are doomed to Gnolom, to dwell in hell, worlds without end. As they concoct scenes of bloodshed in this world, so they shall rise to that resurrection which is as the lake of fire and brimstone. Some shall rise to the everlasting burning of God; for God dwells in everlasting burnings; and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone.
I have intended my remarks for all, both rich and poor, bond and free, great and small, I have no enmity against any man. I love you all; but I hate some of your deeds. I am your best friend; and if persons miss their mark, it is their own fault. If I reprove a man and he hates me, he is a fool; for I love all men, especially these my brethren and sisters.
I rejoice in hearing the testimony of my aged friends. You don't know me: you never knew my heart. No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall never undertake it. I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself. I never did harm any man since I was born into the world. My voice is always for peace.
I cannot lie down until all my work is finished. I never think any evil, nor do anything to the harm of my fellow-man. When I am called by the trump of the archangel and weighed in the balance, you will all know me then. I add no more. God bless you all. Amen.
Just a few random quotes:
Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,-namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one,-from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.
Learned men can teach you no more than what I have told you. Thus, the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council.
I will transpose and simplify it in the English language. Oh, ye lawyers, ye doctors, and ye priests, who have persecuted me, I want to let you know that the Holy Ghost knows something as well as you do. The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. The grand counsellors sat at the head in yonder heavens, and contemplated the creation of the worlds which were created at that time.
The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself.
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret.
wow
With every fiber of my being I am trying not to laugh out loud, so what I am going to say is: ahhh come on!
I guess I laugh because I have not stepped on the first rung of the ladder as yet.
No kidding.
I think this one is even more astonishing.
The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself.
Such utter arrogance. I've read this sermon a couple of times before, and this time, that statement just jumped out at me.
Wow is right.
When you realize that 12 Million actually people consider this man to be a Prophet of God and are relying upon his books and his prophecies to secure their salvation, it stops being funny and starts being sad. Really Sad.
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man...”
Blasphemy, plain and simple.
Hey Joe, say ‘hi’ to Saddam for me.
You are of course correct.
My heart weeps for these lost souls.
Oh my... where to start to educate you ignorant GENTILES.
First - this, this... this SERMON is NOT Scripture.
Why... it's no more authoritive as, say, one of Jeremiah Wright's rants!
--MormonDude(Please stay tuned, as some of our AUTHENTIC Scripture is posted on FR.)
trying to think of something to write that is “nice”. sorry. well, I guess I can pray for them because they need it big time.
[These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before.]
EXACTLY! Truer words were never said!
That’s why I decided long ago to accelerate my own ascendency and I now speak before you as FastCoyote, God of this planet!
You see, when I found I was going to become God, I merely left a mental note to go into the past and accelerate my path of exaltation, until now I am before you, your God and planet keeper.
I feel an ecumenical thread coming over me.
At least these threads show how different mormonism is from historic Christianity in theology. So much for that “we’re just the same!” that is always being claimed. I feel such pity for the people who believe such things!
For some reason, a lot of Christians (as well as Jews and Muslims) are terrified by the notion that God is a Father/Parent who hopes to see his children grow up. The King Follett Discourse is an eloquent expression of the concept, but common sense should bring anyone who believes in a Creator of humankind to the same basic conclusion. It’s impossible to fathom why a Creator with such awesome creative power would only want to create beings who would be forever inferior, who could aspire to nothing more than singing praises to their Creator for eternity. To believe that is to believe in an utterly egomaniacal Creator.
And no, I’m not LDS.
How can a thinking person believe this and that J. Smith was a Prophet of God?
I see them post at F.R., I know they are coherent, they are intellegent in most areas, yet they belive this drivel.
Born into it? Faith? Blind? Are there people with an I.Q. higher than a turnip who have converted to Mormonism?
“Historic Christianity” has a whopping wide range of theologies. The Roman Catholic Church, for example, spent quite a few centuries insisting that infants who died before they could be formally baptized would burn in Hell for eternity. Very few Christians believe that now, and the Catholic Church has wriggled around it and no longer teaches it.
Maybe you should join.
Would you like to receive a free copy of The Book of Mormon? Then click here.
Well, you’ve done something here ... the disgust level was so high when I tried to read this tripe, I couldn’t force myself to continue when I felt I was listening to demonic utterance! Your patience must be ... saintly.
Be nice.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV)
Source (a) is this funeral sermon--King Follette.
Source (b) was a much later LDS "Prophet"--Lorenzo Snow...and his famous couplet. (So famous that Gordon B. Hinckley, even a later Mormon "prophet," when asked about the Snow couplet during one media interview, said it was "just" a couplet).
So what does that mean for Mormons? It means that even though this funeral sermon is not canonized LDS "Scripture," it's tantamount to canonized LDS "Scripture." It defines who their god is, and it's the "highest source" because, after all, Joseph Smith that it was the first principle of the gospel to know for certain the character of God...and charakter (with a "k") in the Greek means "image." (And Mormons are big about "image"=physical image for their heavenly father).
Nope. I have a Book of Mormon and have read plenty about the past and present of the LDS Church and it’s most definitely not for me. Though the 19th century LDS Church might have been for me, if I’d lived back then. The present LDS Church bears little resemblance to the one Joseph Smith founded, rather notably in the fairly recent mumbling semi-denial of the core of the King Follett discourse on national television by the late Prophet Gordon Hinckley. I hope it carries on and eventually finds its way back to its roots, but I’m not holding my breath.
Brigham Young expounded on this doctrine dozens of times. The God was once a man theology is central to the entire scheme of Mormon theology. It was taught rather matter of factly in Church when I was a Mormon. You'll notice that nobody DENIES, it, they just try to diffuse the effect of the teaching by claiming that it is not "official doctrine".
Hogwash.
Oh wait, that would be a "hosing down the pigs" reference, wouldn't it?
Maybe that is what they meant when they said they would hose down the pigs. Maybe they were going to try to bury us all in Hogwash?
*** - I’m sure you know that Ol’ Joe, as a prophet of God, his words can’t be wrong - whether they are in a sermon or a discourse of a revelation. ****
Now, now. Those are just Joe’s OPINIONS!;-)
The “Discources” are online, google. They speak for themselves.
That, my friend is known as Dissembling.
The fact is that no Mormon prophet or apostle has ever denied the teaching. They just try to diffuse it by making half-truth half-lie statements which lead people who might otherwise be repelled by the doctrine to believe that it was something that was only taught in the 19th Century, and was never really important in Mormon theology.
I grew up in the Mormon Church, a fifth generation Mormon. This doctrine was central to Mormon Theology when I was a Mormon. It was rarely talked about outside Mormon circles, but it was the prime motivator of the LDS Men to follow the prophets.
Now if this teaching doesn't bother you , then you really should consider joining the Mormon Church. What Joseph Smith preached here was unadulterated blasphemy of the worst sort. If that doesn't bother you, then you would make a fine Mormon. Indeed, someday you could be the God of your own planet and people will bow down and worship you.
OK, multiple-choice test time...
When it comes to living the afterlife in "everlasting burnings," does the Bible and Book of Mormon say it's better to...
(a) Avoid everlasting burnings? Or...
(b) Strive to dwell in everlastng burnings?
Answer? Well read these three Scriptures, the first & third Jesus talking, & then you tell me:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41)
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mark 9:43)
Now not only that...but the Book of Mormon confirms this as well...I would challenge all Mormons to go & read these verses: Alma 5:56; Jacob 6:10; Mosiah 27:28; and 2 Nephi 28:21-22.
The apostle Paul wrote once to Timothy about the "doctrine of demons." Every once in a while, you come across a "signature" of such a doctrine...a kind of like "Ha ha, ha ha, the joke's on you."
Well, this is it.
A month after this sermon, Smith was still preaching about "everlasting burnings"...pay close attention...all that follows is from the church-published of History of the Church, p. 366, a Smith message delivered in May, 1844:
Immortality dwells in everlasting burnings. I will from time to time reveal to you the subjects that are revealed by the Holy Ghost to me. All the lies that are now hatched up against me are of the devil, and the influence of the devil and his servants will be used against the kingdom of God...All men who are immortal dwell in everlasting burnings...When did I ever teach anything wrong from this stand? When was I ever confounded?...I never told you I was perfect; but there is no error in the revelations which I have taught.
This last line claims this is a error-free "revelation." (It can't be dumped into the Mormon file of mistaken teachings, but Smith doesn't leave that option open to any true follower).
“it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.”
Mormon Heresy and not in any way Biblical.
Rightly condemned by the Church.
“To believe that is to believe in an utterly egomaniacal Creator.”
You must be better than God to be His moral superior! Just wow!
Ah, utter blasphemy!!! (If I uttered this in a sincere way, how long before my tail would be in eternal fire?)
Very verbose, isn’t he?
And he thinks no small beans about himself, too.
By "sectarian" world, Joseph Smith meant Christian sects (see his use of Christian "sects" in his first vision, Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History, vv. 18-20). According to Smith, the "sectarian world...[is] damned as clearly as anathema can do it."
There ya go. We've been damned by Joseph Smith going back to 1844...
From the King Follett sermon: Turn to God; for your religion won't save you, and you will be damned. I do not say how long. There have been remarks made concerning all men being redeemed from hell; but I say that those who sin against the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven in this world or in the world to come: they shall die the second death. Those who commit the unpardonable sin are doomed to Gnolom, to dwell in hell, worlds without end. As they concoct scenes of bloodshed in this world, so they shall rise to that resurrection which is as the lake of fire and brimstone. Some shall rise to the everlasting burning of God; for God dwells in everlasting burnings; and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone.
Gnolom? Hell is Gnolom? Is Gnolom a Gnome word for hell? (Can anybody help as to who would know what a similar word to this means?)
And then he adds that God dwells in hell-like condition? ("everlasting burnings").
For Joseph Smith, he managed to live another two months after this sermon. God is patient.
I don't know about you, but if I was a Mormon, I would...
...only go direct to the said head God to worship and pray to...
...I wouldn't settle for the 5th or 6th or 7th or 8th generational god-in-command when there's clearly a "buck stops here" God! (I mean, why would I want to tap into mere derived, trickle-down authority when I can plug into direct to the thunderous buck-stops-here real priesthood authority?)
I mean just look how shoddy of treatment Smith gives our so-called father in heaven when he compares the spirits in heaven to be "co-equal" with the father!!!
I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal with our Father in heaven.
But wait a minute: how can there be any ultimate Mormon god when Smith was also saying that the principles of man (& intelligences) were self-existent with God?
Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence...was not created or made...For man is spirit. The elements are eternal... (D&C 93:29,33)
If mortal intelligences were immortal from the past;
if mortal spirits were immortal from the past;
if even the impersonal elements are from eternity past...
...then no god, head god or otherwise-god, predated any manly intelligence or spirit.
And that means there is no "ultimate god" in Mormonism.
There is no buck-stops-here god in Mormonism.
There is no priesthood-wielding authority-giving ultimate god in Mormonism.
I can't think of a more shocking wake-up call than to one minute think you are a priestholder of Heavenly Father doing His will...and the next to realize all such authority is empty, for "in the pre-existent beginning" for Mormonism, there is no beginning...there is no Alpha & Omega God who defines beginning by Himself.
Only the biblical God is the true ultimate god: Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. (Isaiah 43:10)
Glory be to such a God, for He loves and welcomes we who are authorityless into His midst and He desires we trust and serve Him.
No matter how “whopping” the range of beliefs, Christianity - not counting out-there heresies that bubbled up now and then - never wandered as far afield as the mormon ideas.
I suggest we start a "piggy bank" to "save up" such sayings.
(Certainly you've heard those radio commercials about how 2005 was the first year since the depression that Americans spent more than they earned and that it's time to start "Paying the Pig" by saving...So we'll call our "Piggy Bank" of saved-up phrases "Paying the Pig.")
Hear, hear!
The problem is that GS is correct that many people reject Christianity for exactly these reasons.
trust me on this....I have a relative that believes EXACTLY what GS just posted. and no he is not Mormon either.
C.S. Lewis, world renounced Christian writer, said the following:
“He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him - for we can prevent Him, if we choose - He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.” C. S. Lewis, Beyond Personality (London: The Centenary Press, 1945), P48
It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship.” C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1949), P14-15
BTW, have you seen the latest Narnia yet? Took the wife a couple nights ago, well worth the time!
Oops, make that renowned. It’s 1am, TIME FOR BED.
Ye do err for you do not understand and try to explain it in your natural man vocabulary!
There is such a thing as righteous boasting!
And it has nothing to do thinking one is greater than Jesus Christ it has to do with joy and feeling good for something one felt was impossible to do!
Wow I did it, I did it and it is true The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has lasted longer than any others were able to do, because Jesus Christ is still the Head of this Church.
2 Cor. 10: 8, 13, 15-16
8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
• • •
13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
• • •
15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men’s labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man’s line of things made ready to our hand.
You can spin all you want but it is dishonest and God knows what you are doing in your heart.
***Would you like to receive a free copy of The Book of Mormon?***
I am 48 years old and have never, not once had a Mormon or JW come knocking on my door. What’s up with that?
_____________________________________
JERRY: No spiel?
GEORGE: (annoyed) Not a peep. They just cleaned the carpets and left. Call themselves a cult!
JERRY: So you’re angry that this bizarre carpet cabal made no attempt to abduct you?
GEORGE: They could’ve at least tried!
JERRY: You know, maybe they thought you looked too smart to be brainwashed?
I Agree!
On May 26, 1844, Joseph Smith boasted he was greater than Jesus
Come on, ye persecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. (History of the Church 6:408-412)NOTE: Almost exactly one month after this boast, on June 27, 1844, Smith was killed by his enemies in a gun battle at Carthage Jail.
Megalomania, pure and simple, and it finally caught up with Joe at Carthage.
yet you presume to know otherwise ?
who could aspire to nothing more than singing praises to their Creator for eternity.
for the gift of Christ ? - yup, forever...
To believe that is to believe in an utterly egomaniacal Creator.
youve already elevated yourself to god
furthermore, it's polytheism, which is a heresey
you may not be LDS - but you sure walk, talk and squawk like one
and you frankly arent credible in your claim
yes dear - but when you elevate yourself above Christ - it should be of concern to everyone
Smiths comment stating "Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I."
...doesnt that raise a red flag for you ?
Joseph Smith prophesied "a vain prophet will be thrown down".
For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him. Doctrine & Covenants 3:4, July 1828.
As you can see HERE, this was about the only thing Joseph got right out of several dozen predictions.
For some strange reason, very few Latter-day Saints know, and even fewer seem to care, about this sad fact.
there you go again - dont try to blend in by standing next to us. Christianity is Trinitarian, Christians say the Atonement of Christ occurred on the Cross, not in the Garden. Christians do not hide the Cross in thier temples, Christians dont exhalt themselves as God, Christians dont believe the Christ was the spirit brother of lucifer....ad nauseum....
This is the part where GS (who professes to be non Mormon) says: "if all Christians are this hostile, I'd rather be a Mormon"
so predictable....this whole thing is like Tom & Jerry and would be funny if it werent for the loss of your souls, and the viel which has been placed upon your eyes
You are doctrinally miles away - dont profess to be my Christian brother
Except when they are.
I'm sure you GENTILES know that many things; VERY many things, that our Glorious founder and subsequent leadrs have said, have been mere mouthings of sinful men. Yet you guys try to say that we, the inheritors of this Only True Church, actually BELEIVE those (scandalous at times) things!
--MormonDude(Why do you try to tar US with the old brushes that THEY wielded?)
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