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Police break up unholy brawl in revered Jerusalem church
Breitbart ^ | April 20, 2008

Posted on 04/20/2008 11:20:47 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

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1 posted on 04/20/2008 11:20:48 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: All
Does this happen every Easter?
2 posted on 04/20/2008 11:37:27 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: Alex Murphy; Kolokotronis; kosta50

Alex,

Why did you put a “Catholic” tag on this? This has nothing to do with the Latins, or the Eastern-Rite Catholics in communion with Rome.

Kolo, Kosta

Ping to you for your comment...


3 posted on 04/20/2008 11:51:54 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Alex Murphy
Does this happen every Easter?

Ah - now I understand my confusion. It doesn't happen every year, but it's a semi-regular occurance among the sites in Israel. Here's a few examples...

Dec 2007, Church of the Nativity
April 2003, Church of the Sepulchre
Jul 2002, Church of the Sepulchre

4 posted on 04/20/2008 12:33:45 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: markomalley; Alex Murphy; kosta50

“Kolo, Kosta

Ping to you for your comment...”

Uhm......Armenians are bad people?

Mark, Alex, this really isn’t news and the monks aren’t sissies. This sort of behavior happens with regularity and has for centuries. We’re not talking polite, tea drinking Anglicans here you know!


5 posted on 04/20/2008 12:50:07 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Alex Murphy

PJ O’Rourke wrote a sad but amusing article about this. I can’t find the longer article, but he refers to the same phenomenon in this one:

“The Church of the Nativity is a shabby mess, the result of quarreling religious orders. Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, and Roman Catholic priests have staked out Nativity turf with the acrimonious precision of teenage brothers sharing a bedroom. A locked steel door prevents direct access from the Roman Catholic chapel to the Grotto of the Nativity, which has to be reached through the Greek Orthodox monastery, where there is a particular “Armenian beam” that Greek Orthodox monks stand on to sweep the area above the Grotto entrance, making the Armenians so angry that, according to my guidebook, “in 1984 there were violent clashes as Greek and Armenian clergy fought running battles with staves and chains that had been hidden beneath their robes.” What would Jesus have thought? He might have thought, Hand me a stave, per Mark 11:15: “Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers.”

“It’s left to the Muslims to keep the peace at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, just as it’s left to the Jews to keep a similar peace at the likewise divided Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. Who will be a Muslim and a Jew to the Muslims and the Jews? Hindus, maybe. That is more or less the idea behind putting UN peacekeeping troops in Israel. This may or may not work. The Bhagavad Gita opens with the hero Arjuna trying to be a pacifist: “Woe!” Arjuna says. “We have resolved to commit a great crime as we stand ready to kill family out of greed for kingship and pleasures!” But the Lord Krishna tells Arjuna to quit whining and fight. “Either you are killed and will then attain to heaven,” Krishna says, “or you triumph and will enjoy the earth.””

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200111/o_rourke


6 posted on 04/20/2008 12:52:33 PM PDT by ellery (In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock -T. Jefferson)
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To: Kolokotronis
Mark, Alex, this really isn’t news and the monks aren’t sissies. This sort of behavior happens with regularity and has for centuries. We’re not talking polite, tea drinking Anglicans here you know!

I realize this. What I don't understand is why the Armenians and the Greeks can't seem to play nice. I could full well recognize if they were going against the Franciscans -- but I would think that the different Orthodox Churches (note I didn't say Ecclesial Communities) would be able to play nice...especially since Latins aren't involved...

I mean, are the Armenians Nestorians or something??

7 posted on 04/20/2008 1:07:20 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley; Alex Murphy

“What I don’t understand is why the Armenians and the Greeks can’t seem to play nice.”

Play NICE!!!!!!!!!????????? Mark, after all these years hanging around in cyberspace with Orthodoxers and you can still ask a question like this?

“I mean, are the Armenians Nestorians or something??”

Almost worse! Non-Chalcedonian Monophysites! Very bad people except the ones who go to our parish because the nearest Armenian parish is over 100 miles away. And the ones who live in the surrounding towns. And their women, well they are very attractive, lovely dancers and good cooks too! But the rest are very bad people, trust me. Don’t ever buy a rug from one. If they would beat up some poor little Greek “papadakis”, think what they would do to a Latin!


8 posted on 04/20/2008 1:20:09 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; FormerLib; MarMema; The_Reader_David; Bokababe; kronos77
Yes, the Armenians are Monophysites. And I know about the monkish brawls that regularly occur in the holy sites in the Holy Land between all the different church bodies that uneasily share them.

However, I (who am only a neophyte) believe that both (Eastern) Orthodox and Monophysite (Oriental Orthodox) churches teach that violence of this type is a sin. And are there not diaolgues between the two churches aimed at resolving differences and eventual unification? At least a few Oriental Orthodox of various nationalities (e.g., Ethiopian, Coptic) already commune in Eastern Orthodox parishes around here.

Yes, I am a neophyte, not a catechumen!!!! I was received into the Holy Orthodox Church (in an OCA parish) yesterday (Lazarus Saturday) through the Sacrament of Chrismation. You all are the first Freepers to know!!!!

It was a great day, with quite a few Lutherans and Serbian Orthodox in attendance. Glory to God for all things!!!!

10 posted on 04/20/2008 2:18:30 PM PDT by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Pretty much, for well over a thousand years.

The exact same sqyabbling between the churches that lead to these fights led to civil and international wars back in the 500s and 600s, and for that matter had a great deal to do with the Muslim conquest of the Middle East, Egypt and North Africa.

The locals had been persecuted by the orthodox Greeks of Constantinople for so long that Muslim rule looked like a good deal by comparison. No doubt they figured out fairly quickly this was a mistake, but by then it was too late.


11 posted on 04/20/2008 2:31:34 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - A. Lincoln)
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To: Honorary Serb

“Yes, I am a neophyte, not a catechumen!!!! I was received into the Holy Orthodox Church (in an OCA parish) yesterday (Lazarus Saturday) through the Sacrament of Chrismation.”

Welcome to the fold, HS!

And don’t worry about monks!


12 posted on 04/20/2008 3:12:25 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis
And don’t worry about monks!


13 posted on 04/20/2008 3:18:57 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Alex Murphy; Kolokotronis; kosta50

Only this time it's an attempt to discredit our brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Churches.

14 posted on 04/20/2008 3:30:55 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Preach the Gospel always, and when necessary use words". ~ St. Francis of Assisi)
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To: big'ol_freeper; kosta50; Alex Murphy

“Only this time it’s an attempt to discredit our brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Churches.”

Oh, don’t let it bother you. It doesn’t us. There’s much better, far more shocking stuff to discredit us with than this usual foolishness, b-o-f!


15 posted on 04/20/2008 3:56:14 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis

That’s the stupidest thing I’ve read in a long time. Armenian Church isn’t a monolithic entity, as there are two different denominations - Armenian Catholics from Cilician Order and Armenian Apostolics, aka Eastern Orthodox.

The Orthodox schism happened 1500 years ago due to a war and other circumstances but this has not altered the core of the christian belief within the Orthodox churches in past 1000 years.

The squabble between priests of Armenian and Greek Orthodox orders is sort of a dumb rivalry that stretches back by centuries. It’s like a CalTech-MIT legacy of pranks. This is the only hotspot where a select group of orthodox members get into pissing matches with one another. Elsewhere, Greeks and Armenians live side-by-side and consider each other natural friends and allies as both are the victims of Turkish genocide.

I invite you to investigate this more thoroughly before making such ignorant statements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_church#Monophysite_label


16 posted on 04/20/2008 6:09:34 PM PDT by Zombie Lincoln (McCain/<conservative_placeholder> '08)
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To: Alex Murphy

***Dec 2007, Church of the Nativity***

Didn’t one here spark the Crimean war?


17 posted on 04/20/2008 6:29:58 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: big'ol_freeper
Only this time it's an attempt to discredit our brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Churches.


18 posted on 04/20/2008 6:56:21 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: Honorary Serb

wow. MANY YEARS.


19 posted on 04/20/2008 8:31:23 PM PDT by MarMema (kosovo will always be Serbian)
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To: Zombie Lincoln

Um, ZL, I was kidding...something you would know if you had been around here more than a month.

And thanks for the link to Wikipedia’s article on Greek Orthodoxy, but seeing as my people have been Orthodox for at least 1700 years, I think I’ll pass on checking it out.


20 posted on 04/21/2008 4:26:29 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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