Posted on 02/05/2008 4:47:35 PM PST by HokieMom
Rick Warren, a megachurch pastor and philanthropist who is courted by political leaders worldwide, says he thinks Christianity needs a "second Reformation" that would steer the church away from divisive politics and be "about deeds, not creeds."
Speaking today to a group of Washington Post reporters and editors, the evangelical author said he had an "epiphany" in recent years due to his wife's battle with cancer and the success of his book, "The Purpose Driven Life," which has sold more than 25 million copies. Humbled and scared, he said he decided to focus on helping the needy and the sick, particularly those with AIDS.
That meant advocating for a broader agenda for evangelicals beyond same-sex marriage and bioethical issues like abortion and stem cell research. That's a shift from the e-mail Warren sent before the 2004 election to his regular distribution list of 136,000 pastors, telling them to focus on those hot-button issues, which he called "non-negotiables."
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
“Deeds not creeds” huh? Sounds like an un-doing of the Reformation, back to works righteousness and indulgences. Whatever happened to sola fide, Rick?
If a “second reformation” is needed, it’s because Christianity has drifted far away from the principles behind the first one.
Somehow, I doubt that’s what Mr. Warren, the pop star, has in mind.
He’s going to command everyone to plant trees now, to follow his “Global Warming” tirade?
Deeds not creeds is salvation by works. Good luck with that.
Absolutely perfect for the dumbed-down, anti-historical, touchy-feely sound-bite driven "faithful."
I’m not buying what Rick Warren is selling.
Yes what?
I think he should say we need to return to the roots of Christianity, fear of the Lord, studying the Bible and so on, that would solve most of America’s ills because the Lords way leads to goodness. But we don’t need him to do that, we need to do it in our own lives.
His mission has always been about works righteousness. SO no, not mission creep. Funny they posted this as news, he’s been saying this about a new reformation (a la Robert Schuller) for years.
Check this out. I can’t believe any Christian in his or her right mind still listens to this Gospel-less slob.
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=4353
Rick never endorsed sola fide. In fact, he says that faith isn't the only thing required to please God.
from Chris Rosebrough at Extreme Theology going through 40 days of Community:
Discipline One: Each passage of scripture is to be understood according to its original context.
Discipline Two: Make sure that you are reading a good translation of scripture.
Discipline Three: The need to properly distinguishing between the message of God’s Law and the message of the Gospel.
Listen Carefully to these sound bites.
Sound Bite 1 - Nothing I Believe Will Matter
Notice how Warren's emphasis on love undermines the Biblical teaching that Faith alone saves.
Sound Bite 2 - It Takes More Than Faith to Please God (Just in case you missed it)
Sound Bite 3 - Only Thing That Matters
Sound Bite 4 - What is Love?
Sound Bite 5 - Love is a Choice
Pay real close attention to Sound Bite 5! In this quote, Warren violates all three disciplines that I listed above. Warren quotes 1 Corinthians 14:1 out of context, using “The Message” paraphrase. "The Message" quotes this verse as saying, “Go after a life of love as if your life depended on it, because it does”. Based on how Warren uses this verse, I'd have to assume that my life and my salvation depend on how well I love.
BINGO! I think you nailed it.
Hey Rick!
It’s deeds AND creeds!
Come on in....Rome will take you back!
There are interesting comments regarding this article at the Post blog at the link, too. Different points of view than those expressed here, as you can imagine.
Salvation through helping those with a sexually transmitted disease. Not sure what book he is reading, but mine says salvation by grace through faith.
Everything you need to know about Warren you can find in the book of Jude.
Rick just thinks he walks on water.
Rick Warren has made a very poor choice of words . He appears to be steering away from orthodox Christianity toward an anti-Evangelical/Christian Right progressive California culture in his Seeker-Friendly fashion. His statement “about deeds, not creeds” sounds like an un-doing of the Reformation, rather than a Second Reformation, back to works righteousness and indulgences. His theological struggle with his wife’s bout with cancer is something with which I can sympathize. But how is that different from Carlton Pearson’s seeing the dying Muslim children in Rowanda? You don’t fashion doctrine based upon such experiences. The Reformation cry was sola scriptura, the Word only, not experience, tradition, logic, etc. Another Reformation tenet was sola fide, faith only. There is no room for works righteousness. Martin Luther came to the latter tenet reading the Word only, especially the Pauline letters, “by grace through faith”.
What Warren may have been trying to say is something not at all original to him: our first priority needs to be the Great Commission. BUT, his statement “I don’t care why you do good as long as you do good” is a clear New Age-ish, works righteousness, humanistic view that sells in a progressive culture like California. Rick is wrong and, unless this latest article is misquoting him and totally missing his point, his theology appears to be drifting away from orthodox evangelicalism.
I understand that he might be trying to be all things to all men that he might win a few, but what we are reading here takes cultural relevancy so far as to distort the Gospel. I do not for a minute think that is Rick’s intent. I think Rick’s heart so wants to reach this generation that he might have lost sight of his message, i.e., “Reach them with what?”. I, for the life of me, cannot see the life relevancy in Carlton’s message. If everyone is going to Heaven, why do we need him to tell us? The danger, however, is not irrelevancy but error that leads to eternal death.
Cultural relevancy to that extent is ear tickling and people pleasing. While Rick’s statement, “I just think we’re becoming too rude,” may have some merit, Carlton asks the question on his website, “Do you think Christians are too mean?” Sure, that case can be made. Christians as a group over time have been very closed-minded, self-righteous, and judgmental. But feel-good theology is no substitute for the Word.
If we start seeing a trend of major leadership like Carlton Pearson, Rick Warren, et al, moving away from these tenets of the Reformation, of the Word only, I suspect that we are seeing a latter days phenomenon prophesied in Daniel 11:32-35
32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.
NKJV
Complete in his luau shirt no less! If it feels good do it, smoke it, etc.
Good analysis. Indeed, we have plenty of warnings in Scripture about false teachers - as we are told in 1 John:
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
He definitely does come across as anti-Evangelical. There are some man-made creeds that many Evangelical churches have adopted and Warren could have a point, but then he turns around and makes similar man-made rules to what he considers 'love' (help the poor, AIDS victims). So in the end he just ends up a left-wing hypocrite.
As he continues to do each and every day! Just about everything that comes out of his mouth is poor advice based on bad theology.
Watching the video clips above, he is further down the road than I realized. I know he wants to reach Californians, but he has lost his way. We need to pray for him. I still hurt over Carlton Pearson. He KNOWS better. Sure he was a showman, but he was a theologian, too. I have heard serious exegetical messages from the man. I am afraid this is a sign of the times that we are in.
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Evangelicals a Liberal Can Love (RICK WARREN JIM WALLIS ETC)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1964460/posts
He lost his way when he asked ‘unchurched’ people how he should run his church instead of consulting scripture. But with his penchant for twisting Scripture he would have come up with the same thing.
If God grants him the vision to see what he has done.. and done and done OVER AND OVER again, it will break him. He will be *completely undone* with grief and shame, and that scares me...for him.
martin luther and the protestant REVOLUTION have been responsible for the loss of more souls than any other person or event in history
“He lost his way when he asked ‘unchurched’ people how he should run his church instead of consulting scripture. But with his penchant for twisting Scripture he would have come up with the same thing.”
“Twisting” is aided when one does not quote scripture but talks about it. That was the whole thing about Reformation, not what men said about scripture, but scripture.
There was already a reformation...it was called the Council of Trent. No need for another.
Yes!
I haven’t read The Purpose Driven Life, and I’m not about to. Good grief.
AMEN!
Somehow, I doubt that’s what Mr. Warren, the pop star, has in mind.
"Evangelicals are often equated with fundamentalists or the religious right, which annoys Warren. Although he's politically conservative - opposing abortion and gay marriage and supporting the death penalty - he pushes a much broader agenda and disdains both politics and fundamentalism....Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century.""http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1555425/posts
You would think some pastor from any where would have pulled him aside and shown him the errors of his way.
Jesus said: “Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” a compromising christian is no christian at all.
NAsbU Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew,YHvH has not lost one soul that He has chosen.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua
He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
He gave me the PDL to read. And we did, and got very annoyed with it! Through the course of the study we found that we have alot more in common in our faith then we thought.
Which was my sly old pastor’s plan all along. He know what Warren was selling even then.
Good. But many people in just about every church around you are reading it and implementing it. It’s pretty subtle in its initial stages.
Good. But many people in just about every church around you are reading it and implementing it. It’s pretty subtle in its initial stages.
They have tried.
They have tried...
However public false teaching must be publicly confronted so that the error can be stopped. So going to him in private is not sufficient to counteract false teaching. False teaching is not what Matthew 18 is about.
Good story.
Yes. But I would offer anyone a private session first - but I didn’t know anyone tried. I’m sure those that went to him are praying for him. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher and when we hear something not according to The Word, one knows it.
His raising money to cure AIDS. How is that biblical? We are to lay hands on the sick - not throw money after sin’s consequences. But one needs faith w/o any unbelief for that. Something warren is lacking - but he has faith that he can raise his $$. It’s all about ‘self’ and what ‘self’ can do and nothing about what Jesus did at The Cross - by My stripes you are healed.
I’m not nearly as impressed with Warren as I used to be. He is the one who needs to reform his theology.
I got really excited at the title and the lead in. I thought that Warren was maybe advocating a removal of crosses and images, stopping the celebration of Easter and Christmas, and returning to a much closer faith to that of the Bible than what modern Protestantism has devolved into. Instead, he is just talking to try to keep himself relevant. What a bummer.
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