Posted on 07/10/2007 6:55:28 PM PDT by indcons
Insulting the Pope IS personal.
Please cite to me where Pope Benedict XVI claimed to be a "God".
I'm pretty sure He said a lot of other things too, even if you take them out of context as well.
Insulting the Pope IS personal.
One could make the case that the Pope's statement that Protestants aren't "proper" Christians is a personal insult also...
I believe this is a reference to the Pope deciding which Christian denominations are "proper"...
How does that make him a "God"?
We believe he is Christ's vicar on earth and therefore has some sway to make pronouncements like these... but this in no means elevates him to the status of deity.
Yes that is what I was referring to, thank you for understanding what I was saying.
Sure am glad I’m not Catholic.
Ok...what does his pronouncement mean then, exactly? That if you aren't Catholic, you aren't a proper Christian? Is it illogical to extrapolate then that you aren't entitled to eternal life in Heaven?
In my humble opinion, only one being has the power to make that decision, and it is not the Pope...
This was never said at all. He said there was One True Church (with a capital "C") and that is the Church that Christ founded, i.e. the Catholic church. No where was it said that people of other denominations are not Christian.
And I strongly disagree with the assertion that anyone can be entitled to life in Heaven. That is presumption of the highest order.
No problem...I have a feeling that not everyone has understand my points on this post either...
Hey, what did you expect, he wants to bring back traditional Catholicism. I’d rather have someone like him as head of the Catholic Church than some smarmy Vatican II droid. At least now we can drop all this ecumenical BS and get back to being Protestants and Catholics again.
PS I’m Protestant (and proud of it).
PSS Let’s hope the current Pope’s tough stance against the Protestant CHURCH means he is going to take an even tougher stand against the Islamofascists. Time will tell.
Yes it is, providing you're the Pope.
You're not the Pope, are you?
Do you not consider it personal when someone insults your family?
I disagree...
Direct from the linked article:
It said the branches of Christianity formed after the split with Rome at the Reformation could not be called churches "in the proper sense" because they broke with a succession of popes who dated back to St Peter.He said there was One True Church (with a capital "C") and that is the Church that Christ founded, i.e. the Catholic church. No where was it said that people of other denominations are not Christian.As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.
The document claimed the Catholic church was the "one true church of Christ". The claims came in a document, from a Vatican watchdog which was approved by the Pope.
That's a bit more than simply saying that the Church that Christ founded is the Catholic Church.
And I ask again, why? What is the intent of a statement like this?
In debate on "open" threads, untoward remarks about God, religious figures, prophets, leaders, clergy, saints, authors and such happen all the time. That is is not "making it personal" for purposes of moderating this forum.
On "closed" threads - devotionals, prayer threads and caucuses - such attacks are not tolerated.
There is nothing I can do to prevent posters from "taking it personally." But the "closed" threads are a safe harbor for those who are easily offended.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.
“Do you not consider it personal when someone insults your family?”
Unless your last name is Ratzinger, that argument does’t make ANY sense.
“My second thought was that I’m glad that who is or isn’t a ‘proper Christian’ isn’t a choice of the pope, that decision is God’s.”
Tell that to the anti Mormon crowd around here.
What is the intent of a statement like this?
To reaffirm the teaching of the Church. As to WHY NOW, there's a good discussion of this going on at catholic.com. I refer you to http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=167828 starting with post #21 (I'd rather not copy posts by others verbatim on this board)
That's because you're not Catholic. For us, the Pope is the Holy Father. Next time you hear slurs against the Pope, please consider what it would be like to hear the same slurs against your own father. That's what it feels like.
I'm not suggesting that any criticism of the Pope should be banned -- he is a public figure after all -- just asking for you to see things from our perspective.
Apparently I'm not doing a very good job at expressing myself, so I'll ask it this way:
Does the Catholic Church believe that non-Catholic Christians have a place in Heaven?
If so, why all the fuss about "proper/improper"?
And yes, I read through the posts on the link you gave me. It seems that even Catholics are disagreeing amongst themselves as to the meaning of the Pope's statement.
Fair enough
I know that the Mormon bashing will go on unabated and it wouldn't be any fun if it stopped, but I want everyone to reflect on the Popes words from time to time.
I happen to agree with the Pope a little bit ^_^ Luckily I don't pretend to be a Christian.
I read this as a restatement of the basic belief of Roman Catholicism:
Jesus founded His Church with Peter as its head to be kept and transmitted through apostolic succession. This, in RC belief, is true only of one church.
Other churches, again in RC belief, may have varying degrees of truth, however known constitute the institution described above.
Other churches disagree of course, but RC doctrine disagrees with them.
So, it’s a restatement of the basic beliefs of Roman Catholics about the history and meaning of being Catholic - one Holy and Apostolic Church.
I see Protestants would object, but no more so than RCs would object to their basic beliefs about the history and standing of Protestant churches.
That settles it! The Pope says that none of you are proper Christians. I know that the Mormon bashing will go on unabatedYou DO know that the founders of this country didn't consider Mormonism OR Catholicism proper religions, don't you? Mormonism is just a plain Con man's best work and Catholicism was thought a mere political power grab by men and not representative of the "Church" at all. It was good enough for the founders...
Huh.
You mean it did not end with the death of St. Peter, to be later restored by Joseph Smith?
Imagine yourself in my position as a 3rd or 4th grader in a Catholic school. My Mother was Catholic, my Father was not.
I recall the pain I felt when the sister (nun) instructed us that anyone who was not Catholic could not enter heaven.
What!!! My Dad who worked hard at his factory job, was a perfectionist at what he turned out, stood on his feet all day, and turned his paycheck over to our Mother to run the house, would never be with God when his earthly life ended?
No, I wasn't aware at my young age of what Dad actually did everyday on his job. I learned more as I got older.
I did realize that he supported all of us.
No. I don't believe ANYONE on this earth has the knowledge and power to decide who God will choose to be with Him in eternity.
Guess I'm not a "real Catholic" anymore, along with the "practicing" Catholics who never miss receiving Communiion; even those, I suspect, who practice artificial birth control which the Catholic Church forbids, and some of whom rarely, if ever, avail themselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
One of the laws of the Church is to confess one's sins at least once a year. Are all those receiving Communiion fulfilling that obligation?
While I'm getting a bit off track here, it doesn't hurt to take an honest look at the bigger picture.
I would have a lot more to say than that to the pope!
and this validates Islam ?
Lee Harvey Oswald was a decendant of Noah
same diff -
In point of fact, the Response emphasizes:
"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church"[12].
Basically, the thrust of the message is this: Protestants don't have Apostolic Succession nor the Sacraments (particularly the Eucharistic Mystery), so they're not, strictly speaking, "Church." The Responses, like the underlying encyclicals, do not imply that we Protestants aren't Christian - it's just that to a Catholic, Apostolic Succession and the Sacraments are the raison d'etre for the Church.
What I find more interesting is that this suggests a little fuzziness around the edges of extra ecclesium nulla salus - you don't, strictly speaking, need to be a communicant in the Roman or Eastern churches to be a Christian. It appears that Rome does recognzize the ecclesial communities as "quasi-churches" at least on this limited question.
No one should think the Roman Catholics are being unfair or unreasonable in this viewpoint. If Apostolic Succession and Sacrementalism **are** accurate, than the Protestant Churches are not "Churches." It is the inevitable conclusion of their central theology - and has a lot more basis in reality than the inadvertent and entirely unsupported conclusion of too many Protestants and Evangelicals that Catholics can't be Christian. ("She's not Christian, she's Catholic" is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.)
Just my 2 cents worth.
It makes Islam less wrong than, say, paganism or polytheism.
I'll try and remember that as they call for my death
Those who worship the Lord must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. Those are Jesus' words, and it's obvious that those who add willy-nilly things like Assumption, Immaculate Conception, and Coredemption of Mary to the Christian faith are doing nothing different than what Joseph Smith did with the Mormons. They've got their own little book for their sect, and so do the RCs....these "traditions" they've accumulated over the years like barnacles on a ship. (Someone clean the crust off.)
"Holy Orders" have no value. I can probably find by google search in a matter of minutes any number of so-called "priests" who were received lock, stock, barrel, wives & kids from other denominations that were just proclaimed unworthy.
This guy speaks out of both sides of his mouth, he's an unfaithful witness, and to listen to him is wasted air time.
It's time for DrE to call him the anti-christ again. :>)
“Bishop Wolfgang Huber, head of the Evangelical Church in Germany, said the Vatican document effectively downgraded Protestant churches and would make ecumenical relations more difficult.”
- on the contrary, i believe it will help ecumenism. The BS ecumenism that is around today (particularly in Germany) causes each faith group to reduce its beliefs down to nothing in attempt to please the other party - i have seen this first hand. Only when each faith group firmly proclaims its faith can true ecumenism be possible and believing your church is the true church is part of that.
Can we settle for "semi-christ"? :-)
Protestant churches may not have a sacramental priesthood but they also don’t pray to statues!
“Semi-Christ”
As in MAC Truck?? :>)
I saw this Trucker for Jesus Semi once....I think it’s online somewhere...He’d painted his truck in this awesome portrayal of the message of Christ. (I’m gonna see if I can find a link.)
Weren't all the founders dead, when Mormonism came around? ^_^
and this validates Islam ?
No, more like guilt by association ^_^
Lee Harvey Oswald was a decendant of Noah
I believe you are starting to get the idea. There was no Noah's Ark.
i might beg to differ dude - Im a pastor
Do Christians feel that way when the true God of Abraham, when Jesus Christ is insulted? Are we supposed to? Has not the Lord God already defeated His enemies? Does it edify us to feel insulted when wrong is spoken of the Lord? Does that show our faith in Him, or lack thereof? Perhaps we should all take a long deep trip through the Psalms!
Not everything is about salvation alone. In Christian theology we will account for our use of the gifts God gave us, our "talents," so Catholics and Protestants can recognize that each has saints and we are one body divided, AND can vehemently disagree on major theological issues AND can feel that we are obligated to do so. Salvation, saving grace, is step one for a Christian, not the whole race.
THANK YOU for that eminently sensible viewpoint. :)
So why would I personally care what the pope thinks about my faith. The pope is not omniscient, neither am I. Sooner or later, each of us will stand individually in front of the Lord and be accountable for our thoughts, words and deeds. I have enough sin in my own life to worry about what someone else thinks about my faith, no matter who he is or who people want to think he is.
i might beg to differ dude - Im a pastor
I know you are. That is why I said it ^_^
I am a scientist and Noah's Ark doesn't pass the test. You were the one that brought up Noah ^_^
To speed up the conversation. In the end you will be forced to say that Noah's Ark was a Miracle and that God can do anything. And I will ask you if he can do anything then couldn't he have gone to America before he was resurrected?
What you call "crust" we (and the Orthodox, and the other oriental Churches) say is the *esse*, the very life and being of the Church which is part of the divine revelation that Christ gave to the Apostles. We would not THINK of throwing away the belief of the Real Presence of the Eucharist any more than you would throw away a book of the Bible.
The Reformation made its decision to scrap these so-called "accumulations", and by doing so, it wrote itself out of being considered a true Church by the other communities who preserved them. Period. It was as true at the Council of Trent as it is now.
This document is nothing new on that score.
Being alive is a miracle, we just don’t acknowledge that fact very often because we take it for granted.
I did not mention presence.
I mentioned those things that have not got one whit, one iota of biblical backing....assumption, immaculate conception, and coredemption of Mary.
They are made-up-by-man additions....no different than Joseph Mormon Smith making up golden plates in New York state.
“You DO know that the founders of this country didn’t consider Mormonism OR Catholicism proper religions, don’t you?”
The founding fathers all had to be dead before Joseph Smith had his revelation and never heard of Mormonism. While they certainly had no love for Catholicism, there was at least one Catholic who signed our Declaration of Independence.
um - no this is the part where I express sadness that you derive a hollow comfort in mancenteredness, knowing full well our understanding of the cosmos and the earths history is extremely limited, since science has really only been practiced earnestly for the past several hundred years.....
That said - please explain how the how the big bang expanded at just the right constant, how earth formed at just the right distance from the sun, how earths atmosphere has just the right amount of O2, how an unintelligent primordial soup has the collective intelligence to realize it needs lungs, eyes, ears, smell, legs, arms, fingers, a pituitary gland, teeth, a tongue and of course a brain
This is the part where you say evolution - blah blah blah
I agree with the principle of your theory. That is why I pinged you.
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