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Protestants aren't proper Christians, says Pope
Daily Mail ^ | 11th July 2007 | SIMON CALDWELL

Posted on 07/10/2007 6:55:28 PM PDT by indcons

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To: Religion Moderator

Insulting the Pope IS personal.


51 posted on 07/10/2007 9:32:17 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: Brandie
The pope is no God not even a little.

Please cite to me where Pope Benedict XVI claimed to be a "God".

52 posted on 07/10/2007 9:44:37 PM PDT by jddqr
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To: narses
Our Lord said: “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword”

I'm pretty sure He said a lot of other things too, even if you take them out of context as well.

Insulting the Pope IS personal.

One could make the case that the Pope's statement that Protestants aren't "proper" Christians is a personal insult also...

53 posted on 07/10/2007 9:46:42 PM PDT by danneskjold
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To: jddqr
Please cite to me where Pope Benedict XVI claimed to be a "God".

I believe this is a reference to the Pope deciding which Christian denominations are "proper"...

54 posted on 07/10/2007 9:48:30 PM PDT by danneskjold
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To: danneskjold
I believe this is a reference to the Pope deciding which Christian denominations are "proper"...

How does that make him a "God"?

We believe he is Christ's vicar on earth and therefore has some sway to make pronouncements like these... but this in no means elevates him to the status of deity.

55 posted on 07/10/2007 9:51:00 PM PDT by jddqr
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To: danneskjold
I believe this is a reference to the Pope deciding which Christian denominations are "proper"...

Yes that is what I was referring to, thank you for understanding what I was saying.

56 posted on 07/10/2007 9:51:20 PM PDT by Brandie (I am for Duncan Hunter and Fred Thompson, but then I am a Conservative.)
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To: indcons

Sure am glad I’m not Catholic.


57 posted on 07/10/2007 9:52:03 PM PDT by Bullish ( Reality is the best cure for delusion.)
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To: jddqr
We believe he is Christ's vicar on earth and therefore has some sway to make pronouncements like these... but this in no means elevates him to the status of deity.

Ok...what does his pronouncement mean then, exactly? That if you aren't Catholic, you aren't a proper Christian? Is it illogical to extrapolate then that you aren't entitled to eternal life in Heaven?

In my humble opinion, only one being has the power to make that decision, and it is not the Pope...

58 posted on 07/10/2007 9:56:22 PM PDT by danneskjold
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To: danneskjold
That if you aren't Catholic, you aren't a proper Christian?

This was never said at all. He said there was One True Church (with a capital "C") and that is the Church that Christ founded, i.e. the Catholic church. No where was it said that people of other denominations are not Christian.

And I strongly disagree with the assertion that anyone can be entitled to life in Heaven. That is presumption of the highest order.

59 posted on 07/10/2007 10:02:22 PM PDT by jddqr
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To: Brandie
Yes that is what I was referring to, thank you for understanding what I was saying.

No problem...I have a feeling that not everyone has understand my points on this post either...

60 posted on 07/10/2007 10:02:55 PM PDT by danneskjold
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To: indcons

Hey, what did you expect, he wants to bring back traditional Catholicism. I’d rather have someone like him as head of the Catholic Church than some smarmy Vatican II droid. At least now we can drop all this ecumenical BS and get back to being Protestants and Catholics again.

PS I’m Protestant (and proud of it).

PSS Let’s hope the current Pope’s tough stance against the Protestant CHURCH means he is going to take an even tougher stand against the Islamofascists. Time will tell.


61 posted on 07/10/2007 10:03:38 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: narses
Insulting the Pope IS personal.

Yes it is, providing you're the Pope.

You're not the Pope, are you?

62 posted on 07/10/2007 10:09:15 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (As heard on the Amish Radio Network! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1675029/posts)
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To: Alex Murphy

Do you not consider it personal when someone insults your family?


63 posted on 07/10/2007 10:13:42 PM PDT by jddqr
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To: jddqr
This was never said at all.

I disagree...

Direct from the linked article:

It said the branches of Christianity formed after the split with Rome at the Reformation could not be called churches "in the proper sense" because they broke with a succession of popes who dated back to St Peter.

As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.

The document claimed the Catholic church was the "one true church of Christ". The claims came in a document, from a Vatican watchdog which was approved by the Pope.

He said there was One True Church (with a capital "C") and that is the Church that Christ founded, i.e. the Catholic church. No where was it said that people of other denominations are not Christian.

That's a bit more than simply saying that the Church that Christ founded is the Catholic Church.

And I ask again, why? What is the intent of a statement like this?

64 posted on 07/10/2007 10:18:12 PM PDT by danneskjold
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To: jddqr; narses; Alex Murphy
On the Religion Forum, it is considered "personal" only when in reference to another Freeper.

In debate on "open" threads, untoward remarks about God, religious figures, prophets, leaders, clergy, saints, authors and such happen all the time. That is is not "making it personal" for purposes of moderating this forum.

On "closed" threads - devotionals, prayer threads and caucuses - such attacks are not tolerated.

There is nothing I can do to prevent posters from "taking it personally." But the "closed" threads are a safe harbor for those who are easily offended.

Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.

65 posted on 07/10/2007 10:22:47 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: jddqr

“Do you not consider it personal when someone insults your family?”

Unless your last name is Ratzinger, that argument does’t make ANY sense.


66 posted on 07/10/2007 10:23:14 PM PDT by indcons (My 2-step solution to stopping terrorism: defuse the bombs; deport the muslims.)
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To: mnehrling

“My second thought was that I’m glad that who is or isn’t a ‘proper Christian’ isn’t a choice of the pope, that decision is God’s.”

Tell that to the anti Mormon crowd around here.


67 posted on 07/10/2007 10:25:13 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (Romney Rocks!)
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To: danneskjold
OK, I'll answer your last question, but please realize that nothing you posted gave evidence to the assertion that the Pope has called non-Catholics as "non-Christians".

What is the intent of a statement like this?

To reaffirm the teaching of the Church. As to WHY NOW, there's a good discussion of this going on at catholic.com. I refer you to http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=167828 starting with post #21 (I'd rather not copy posts by others verbatim on this board)

68 posted on 07/10/2007 10:30:28 PM PDT by jddqr
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To: indcons
Unless your last name is Ratzinger, that argument does’t make ANY sense.

That's because you're not Catholic. For us, the Pope is the Holy Father. Next time you hear slurs against the Pope, please consider what it would be like to hear the same slurs against your own father. That's what it feels like.

I'm not suggesting that any criticism of the Pope should be banned -- he is a public figure after all -- just asking for you to see things from our perspective.

69 posted on 07/10/2007 10:34:40 PM PDT by jddqr
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To: jddqr
OK, I'll answer your last question, but please realize that nothing you posted gave evidence to the assertion that the Pope has called non-Catholics as "non-Christians".

Apparently I'm not doing a very good job at expressing myself, so I'll ask it this way:

Does the Catholic Church believe that non-Catholic Christians have a place in Heaven?

If so, why all the fuss about "proper/improper"?

And yes, I read through the posts on the link you gave me. It seems that even Catholics are disagreeing amongst themselves as to the meaning of the Pope's statement.

70 posted on 07/10/2007 10:44:13 PM PDT by danneskjold
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To: jddqr

Fair enough


71 posted on 07/10/2007 10:59:51 PM PDT by indcons (My 2-step solution to stopping terrorism: defuse the bombs; deport the muslims.)
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To: MHGinTN; Revelation 911; Petronski; svcw; gcruse; Rameumptom; imjustme; Mobile Vulgus; ...
That settles it! The Pope says that none of you are proper Christians.

I know that the Mormon bashing will go on unabated and it wouldn't be any fun if it stopped, but I want everyone to reflect on the Popes words from time to time.

I happen to agree with the Pope a little bit ^_^ Luckily I don't pretend to be a Christian.

72 posted on 07/10/2007 11:29:43 PM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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I read this as a restatement of the basic belief of Roman Catholicism:

Jesus founded His Church with Peter as its head to be kept and transmitted through apostolic succession. This, in RC belief, is true only of one church.

Other churches, again in RC belief, may have varying degrees of truth, however known constitute the institution described above.

Other churches disagree of course, but RC doctrine disagrees with them.

So, it’s a restatement of the basic beliefs of Roman Catholics about the history and meaning of being Catholic - one Holy and Apostolic Church.

I see Protestants would object, but no more so than RCs would object to their basic beliefs about the history and standing of Protestant churches.


73 posted on 07/10/2007 11:39:36 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: LeGrande
That settles it! The Pope says that none of you are proper Christians. I know that the Mormon bashing will go on unabated
You DO know that the founders of this country didn't consider Mormonism OR Catholicism proper religions, don't you? Mormonism is just a plain Con man's best work and Catholicism was thought a mere political power grab by men and not representative of the "Church" at all. It was good enough for the founders...
74 posted on 07/10/2007 11:52:52 PM PDT by Mobile Vulgus
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To: Argus
He simply said that the only legitimate apostolic succession rests with the Roman Catholic Church.

Huh.
You mean it did not end with the death of St. Peter, to be later restored by Joseph Smith?

75 posted on 07/11/2007 2:13:34 AM PDT by XR7
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To: danneskjold
....Catholism is the only way to Heaven.

Imagine yourself in my position as a 3rd or 4th grader in a Catholic school. My Mother was Catholic, my Father was not.

I recall the pain I felt when the sister (nun) instructed us that anyone who was not Catholic could not enter heaven.

What!!! My Dad who worked hard at his factory job, was a perfectionist at what he turned out, stood on his feet all day, and turned his paycheck over to our Mother to run the house, would never be with God when his earthly life ended?

No, I wasn't aware at my young age of what Dad actually did everyday on his job. I learned more as I got older.

I did realize that he supported all of us.

No. I don't believe ANYONE on this earth has the knowledge and power to decide who God will choose to be with Him in eternity.

Guess I'm not a "real Catholic" anymore, along with the "practicing" Catholics who never miss receiving Communiion; even those, I suspect, who practice artificial birth control which the Catholic Church forbids, and some of whom rarely, if ever, avail themselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

One of the laws of the Church is to confess one's sins at least once a year. Are all those receiving Communiion fulfilling that obligation?

While I'm getting a bit off track here, it doesn't hurt to take an honest look at the bigger picture.

76 posted on 07/11/2007 2:51:37 AM PDT by IIntense
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To: indcons

I would have a lot more to say than that to the pope!


77 posted on 07/11/2007 3:06:05 AM PDT by RaceBannon (Innocent until proven guilty: The Pendleton 8...down to 3..GWB, we hardly knew ye...)
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To: LeGrande
Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham

and this validates Islam ?

Lee Harvey Oswald was a decendant of Noah

same diff -

78 posted on 07/11/2007 3:13:08 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: jddqr; xzins; P-Marlowe; dangus; jo kus
He said there was One True Church (with a capital "C") and that is the Church that Christ founded, i.e. the Catholic church. No where was it said that people of other denominations are not Christian.

In point of fact, the Response emphasizes:

"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church"[12].

Basically, the thrust of the message is this: Protestants don't have Apostolic Succession nor the Sacraments (particularly the Eucharistic Mystery), so they're not, strictly speaking, "Church." The Responses, like the underlying encyclicals, do not imply that we Protestants aren't Christian - it's just that to a Catholic, Apostolic Succession and the Sacraments are the raison d'etre for the Church.

What I find more interesting is that this suggests a little fuzziness around the edges of extra ecclesium nulla salus - you don't, strictly speaking, need to be a communicant in the Roman or Eastern churches to be a Christian. It appears that Rome does recognzize the ecclesial communities as "quasi-churches" at least on this limited question.

No one should think the Roman Catholics are being unfair or unreasonable in this viewpoint. If Apostolic Succession and Sacrementalism **are** accurate, than the Protestant Churches are not "Churches." It is the inevitable conclusion of their central theology - and has a lot more basis in reality than the inadvertent and entirely unsupported conclusion of too many Protestants and Evangelicals that Catholics can't be Christian. ("She's not Christian, she's Catholic" is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.)

Just my 2 cents worth.

79 posted on 07/11/2007 3:43:35 AM PDT by jude24 (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: Revelation 911
and this validates Islam ?

It makes Islam less wrong than, say, paganism or polytheism.

80 posted on 07/11/2007 3:44:54 AM PDT by jude24 (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: jude24
It makes Islam less wrong than, say, paganism or polytheism.

I'll try and remember that as they call for my death

81 posted on 07/11/2007 3:58:03 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: indcons; jude24; P-Marlowe; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg
Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value.

Those who worship the Lord must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. Those are Jesus' words, and it's obvious that those who add willy-nilly things like Assumption, Immaculate Conception, and Coredemption of Mary to the Christian faith are doing nothing different than what Joseph Smith did with the Mormons. They've got their own little book for their sect, and so do the RCs....these "traditions" they've accumulated over the years like barnacles on a ship. (Someone clean the crust off.)

"Holy Orders" have no value. I can probably find by google search in a matter of minutes any number of so-called "priests" who were received lock, stock, barrel, wives & kids from other denominations that were just proclaimed unworthy.

This guy speaks out of both sides of his mouth, he's an unfaithful witness, and to listen to him is wasted air time.

It's time for DrE to call him the anti-christ again. :>)

82 posted on 07/11/2007 4:37:17 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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“Bishop Wolfgang Huber, head of the Evangelical Church in Germany, said the Vatican document effectively downgraded Protestant churches and would make ecumenical relations more difficult.”

- on the contrary, i believe it will help ecumenism. The BS ecumenism that is around today (particularly in Germany) causes each faith group to reduce its beliefs down to nothing in attempt to please the other party - i have seen this first hand. Only when each faith group firmly proclaims its faith can true ecumenism be possible and believing your church is the true church is part of that.


83 posted on 07/11/2007 4:52:43 AM PDT by rogernz
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To: xzins; indcons; jude24; P-Marlowe; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg
It's time for DrE to call him the anti-christ again. :>)

Can we settle for "semi-christ"? :-)

84 posted on 07/11/2007 5:15:30 AM PDT by Larry Lucido (Duncan Hunter 2008)
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To: danneskjold

Protestant churches may not have a sacramental priesthood but they also don’t pray to statues!


85 posted on 07/11/2007 5:27:38 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (If you agee with Democrats you agree with America's enemies.)
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To: Larry Lucido

“Semi-Christ”

As in MAC Truck?? :>)

I saw this Trucker for Jesus Semi once....I think it’s online somewhere...He’d painted his truck in this awesome portrayal of the message of Christ. (I’m gonna see if I can find a link.)


86 posted on 07/11/2007 5:33:21 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: Mobile Vulgus
You DO know that the founders of this country didn't consider Mormonism OR Catholicism proper religions, don't you? Mormonism is just a plain Con man's best work and Catholicism was thought a mere political power grab by men and not representative of the "Church" at all. It was good enough for the founders...

Weren't all the founders dead, when Mormonism came around? ^_^

87 posted on 07/11/2007 5:41:56 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: Revelation 911
Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham

and this validates Islam ?

No, more like guilt by association ^_^

Lee Harvey Oswald was a decendant of Noah

I believe you are starting to get the idea. There was no Noah's Ark.

88 posted on 07/11/2007 5:47:59 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: LeGrande
There was no Noah's Ark.

i might beg to differ dude - Im a pastor

89 posted on 07/11/2007 5:54:48 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: jddqr
Why is that attitude any different than how the Muslims feel when the head of their "church", Mohammed is held in any less than holy reverence, or the Mormons with Joseph Smith, or the Branch Davidians with Koresh? I am talking about the heart attitude, not necessarily the carying out of that feeling on a physical level.

Do Christians feel that way when the true God of Abraham, when Jesus Christ is insulted? Are we supposed to? Has not the Lord God already defeated His enemies? Does it edify us to feel insulted when wrong is spoken of the Lord? Does that show our faith in Him, or lack thereof? Perhaps we should all take a long deep trip through the Psalms!

90 posted on 07/11/2007 6:04:20 AM PDT by lupie
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To: danneskjold
Does the Catholic Church believe that non-Catholic Christians have a place in Heaven? If so, why all the fuss about "proper/improper"?

Not everything is about salvation alone. In Christian theology we will account for our use of the gifts God gave us, our "talents," so Catholics and Protestants can recognize that each has saints and we are one body divided, AND can vehemently disagree on major theological issues AND can feel that we are obligated to do so. Salvation, saving grace, is step one for a Christian, not the whole race.

91 posted on 07/11/2007 6:05:25 AM PDT by Greg F (<><)
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To: jude24
No one should think the Roman Catholics are being unfair or unreasonable in this viewpoint. If Apostolic Succession and Sacrementalism **are** accurate, than the Protestant Churches are not "Churches." It is the inevitable conclusion of their central theology - and has a lot more basis in reality than the inadvertent and entirely unsupported conclusion of too many Protestants and Evangelicals that Catholics can't be Christian

THANK YOU for that eminently sensible viewpoint. :)

92 posted on 07/11/2007 6:06:19 AM PDT by Claud
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To: LeGrande

So why would I personally care what the pope thinks about my faith. The pope is not omniscient, neither am I. Sooner or later, each of us will stand individually in front of the Lord and be accountable for our thoughts, words and deeds. I have enough sin in my own life to worry about what someone else thinks about my faith, no matter who he is or who people want to think he is.


93 posted on 07/11/2007 6:08:41 AM PDT by lupie
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To: Revelation 911
There was no Noah's Ark.

i might beg to differ dude - Im a pastor

I know you are. That is why I said it ^_^
I am a scientist and Noah's Ark doesn't pass the test. You were the one that brought up Noah ^_^

To speed up the conversation. In the end you will be forced to say that Noah's Ark was a Miracle and that God can do anything. And I will ask you if he can do anything then couldn't he have gone to America before he was resurrected?

94 posted on 07/11/2007 6:11:00 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: xzins
They've got their own little book for their sect, and so do the RCs....these "traditions" they've accumulated over the years like barnacles on a ship. (Someone clean the crust off.)

What you call "crust" we (and the Orthodox, and the other oriental Churches) say is the *esse*, the very life and being of the Church which is part of the divine revelation that Christ gave to the Apostles. We would not THINK of throwing away the belief of the Real Presence of the Eucharist any more than you would throw away a book of the Bible.

The Reformation made its decision to scrap these so-called "accumulations", and by doing so, it wrote itself out of being considered a true Church by the other communities who preserved them. Period. It was as true at the Council of Trent as it is now.

This document is nothing new on that score.

95 posted on 07/11/2007 6:15:31 AM PDT by Claud
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To: LeGrande

Being alive is a miracle, we just don’t acknowledge that fact very often because we take it for granted.


96 posted on 07/11/2007 6:18:22 AM PDT by Greg F (<><)
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To: Claud; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; BibChr

I did not mention presence.

I mentioned those things that have not got one whit, one iota of biblical backing....assumption, immaculate conception, and coredemption of Mary.

They are made-up-by-man additions....no different than Joseph Mormon Smith making up golden plates in New York state.


97 posted on 07/11/2007 6:18:32 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: Mobile Vulgus

“You DO know that the founders of this country didn’t consider Mormonism OR Catholicism proper religions, don’t you?”

The founding fathers all had to be dead before Joseph Smith had his revelation and never heard of Mormonism. While they certainly had no love for Catholicism, there was at least one Catholic who signed our Declaration of Independence.


98 posted on 07/11/2007 6:23:47 AM PDT by Upbeat
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To: LeGrande
To speed up the conversation. In the end you will be forced to say that Noah's Ark was a Miracle and that God can do anything. And I will ask you if he can do anything then couldn't he have gone to America before he was resurrected?

um - no this is the part where I express sadness that you derive a hollow comfort in mancenteredness, knowing full well our understanding of the cosmos and the earths history is extremely limited, since science has really only been practiced earnestly for the past several hundred years.....

That said - please explain how the how the big bang expanded at just the right constant, how earth formed at just the right distance from the sun, how earths atmosphere has just the right amount of O2, how an unintelligent primordial soup has the collective intelligence to realize it needs lungs, eyes, ears, smell, legs, arms, fingers, a pituitary gland, teeth, a tongue and of course a brain

This is the part where you say evolution - blah blah blah

99 posted on 07/11/2007 6:27:19 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: lupie
So why would I personally care what the pope thinks about my faith. The pope is not omniscient, neither am I. Sooner or later, each of us will stand individually in front of the Lord and be accountable for our thoughts, words and deeds. I have enough sin in my own life to worry about what someone else thinks about my faith, no matter who he is or who people want to think he is.

I agree with the principle of your theory. That is why I pinged you.

100 posted on 07/11/2007 6:29:43 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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