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Protestants aren't proper Christians, says Pope
Daily Mail ^ | 11th July 2007 | SIMON CALDWELL

Posted on 07/10/2007 6:55:28 PM PDT by indcons

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To: LeGrande
To speed up the conversation. In the end you will be forced to say that Noah's Ark was a Miracle and that God can do anything. And I will ask you if he can do anything then couldn't he have gone to America before he was resurrected?

Did you mean to say after he was resurrected?

101 posted on 07/11/2007 6:30:47 AM PDT by sandude
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To: LeGrande

“I know that the Mormon bashing will go on unabated and it wouldn’t be any fun if it stopped”

Of course, the Pope’s current statement makes the questioning of JFK’s catholicism valid. But let’s be clear, Mormons claim in effect that their religion predates Christianity (both Catholic and protestant), so why they want to call themselves Christians is beyond me.

What they are really trying to say is everyone else is a failed Mormon.


102 posted on 07/11/2007 6:33:27 AM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: indcons

I used to hear that term from my aunt. they are not proper catholic. she didnt’ consider me married because I got married in the methodist church. I left the church with my parents when I was 13. only been back for funerals. The catholic church is so tunnel visioned on importing the third world to keep their membership up, that I cannot stomach being a member there.


103 posted on 07/11/2007 6:35:49 AM PDT by television is just wrong (If being against illegal immigration is racist, so be it.)
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To: Greg F
Being alive is a miracle, we just don’t acknowledge that fact very often because we take it for granted.

I will agree, Life is a miracle ^_^ It is probably the greatest mystery in the universe. The journey of discovering its secrets will be fun.

104 posted on 07/11/2007 6:36:07 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: LeGrande; Revelation 911
I am a scientist and Noah's Ark doesn't pass the test.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (Romans 1:22 KJV)

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (Matthew 24:38 KJV)

Whom to believe? Jesus or LeGrand the Magic Scientist?

I'll chose Jesus.

105 posted on 07/11/2007 6:36:42 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: indcons

I am trying to understand why the catholic church is doing so much protestant bashing.


106 posted on 07/11/2007 6:37:47 AM PDT by banalblues (God help us all.)
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To: LeGrande
Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.

How do you come to this understanding?

Allah is not the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Israel !


107 posted on 07/11/2007 6:40:42 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: indcons

So are all the mormon haters beginning to see what is like to be hated because of what some believe to be false teaching? I guess everyone is mormon these days.

LOL


108 posted on 07/11/2007 6:41:26 AM PDT by Porterville (I'm an American. If you hate Americans, I hope our enemies destroy you. I will pray for my soul.)
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To: LeGrande

Yes, the founders were all dead when the con man made up Mormonism. I didn’t mean to imply they were alive. I was talking about how the Founders only meant that Protestantism was a proper Christian religion. Sorry for my misspeaking there.


109 posted on 07/11/2007 6:42:37 AM PDT by Mobile Vulgus
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To: danneskjold
I have heard some Catholics (granted, not all) say that Catholicism is the only way to Heaven. It is much less likely to hear that proclamation from a Baptist, Episcipalian, etc...

Really? When I used to live in Virginia I'd regularly have Baptists, upon learning I am RC, ask me "so how does a Catholic get to heaven?"

110 posted on 07/11/2007 6:45:17 AM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: sandude
Did you mean to say after he was resurrected?

My recollection is hazy. I seem to recall that it was both while he was in the womb and the three days before he was resurrected. I could be wrong ^_^ Since they felt the wounds, it would make more sense after the resurrection.

111 posted on 07/11/2007 6:47:30 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: NittanyLion
I'd regularly have Baptists, upon learning I am RC, ask me "so how does a Catholic get to heaven?"

So how does a Catholic get to heaven?

112 posted on 07/11/2007 6:47:59 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: FastCoyote
Of course, the Pope’s current statement makes the questioning of JFK’s catholicism valid. But let’s be clear, Mormons claim in effect that their religion predates Christianity (both Catholic and protestant), so why they want to call themselves Christians is beyond me.

Don't you believe that Christ is God? Don't you believe that Christ is the God of Abraham? I am sorry, you must not believe that the true religion existed until Christ was born, that is interesting.

113 posted on 07/11/2007 6:54:39 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: P-Marlowe

So what evidence do you have that the Noah’s Ark story isn’t a fable?


114 posted on 07/11/2007 6:55:58 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: indcons; All

RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS
OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH

What is the meaning of the affirmation that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church?

Response: Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”[5], that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted.[6] “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”[7].

In number 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium ‘subsistence’ means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church[8], in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth.

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.[9] Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.[10]

Third Question: Why was the expression “subsists in” adopted instead of the simple word “is”?

Response: The use of this expression, which indicates the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church, does not change the doctrine on the Church. Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are “numerous elements of sanctification and of truth” which are found outside her structure, but which “as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity”[11].

“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”[12].

Fourth Question: Why does the Second Vatican Council use the term “Church” in reference to the oriental Churches separated from full communion with the Catholic Church?

Response: The Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term. “Because these Churches, although separated, have true sacraments and above all – because of the apostolic succession – the priesthood and the Eucharist, by means of which they remain linked to us by very close bonds”[13], they merit the title of “particular or local Churches”[14], and are called sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches[15].

“It is through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches that the Church of God is built up and grows in stature”[16]. However, since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches[17].

On the other hand, because of the division between Christians, the fullness of universality, which is proper to the Church governed by the Successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him, is not fully realised in history[18].

Fifth Question: Why do the texts of the Council and those of the Magisterium since the Council not use the title of “Church” with regard to those Christian Communities born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century?

Response: According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense[20].

The Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, ratified and confirmed these Responses, adopted in the Plenary Session of the Congregation, and ordered their publication.

Rome, from the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, June 29, 2007, the Solemnity of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html


115 posted on 07/11/2007 6:57:09 AM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: XeniaSt
Allah is not the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Israel !

Ever heard of Ishmael?

116 posted on 07/11/2007 6:57:40 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: LeGrande
I mean a set of beleifs that is not 100% congruent.

Coming from an atheist ex-momron, I am not sure how to take that, or even if I want to figure out how to take it. :)

Although I do not care what others think about the quality of my faith, I very much DO care about error being exposed and Truth being spoken. Sometimes (not often) I am the one called to do that, sometimes I am not but do anyway :(. But more often I see that His Truth is being spoken and so, my part is to pray.

117 posted on 07/11/2007 7:01:30 AM PDT by lupie
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To: Mobile Vulgus
I was talking about how the Founders only meant that Protestantism was a proper Christian religion.

Which Protestant Religion did they specifically refer to? So Catholicism isn't a proper Christian religion? Do you believe in the Nicaean Creed?

118 posted on 07/11/2007 7:01:37 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: LeGrande

Lets see, first I do not pretend to be a Christian I am a Christian.
The pope, huh, do I care what this man thinks about my salvation - ahuh NO.
Anyway, thanks for playing.


119 posted on 07/11/2007 7:03:00 AM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
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To: LeGrande; Revelation 911
So what evidence do you have that the Noah’s Ark story isn’t a fable?

(Matthew 24:38 KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

(Matthew 24:39 KJV) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

(Luke 17:27 KJV) They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Is Christ a liar?

It was Christ who sent the flood.

He would know.

He was there.

You weren't.

120 posted on 07/11/2007 7:03:53 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Revelation 911
um - no this is the part where I express sadness that you derive a hollow comfort in mancenteredness, knowing full well our understanding of the cosmos and the earths history is extremely limited, since science has really only been practiced earnestly for the past several hundred years.....

You are right. Science doesn't have all the answers, yet. Still a scientifice guess is better than religious dogma ^_^

121 posted on 07/11/2007 7:05:43 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: lupie
I mean a set of beleifs that is not 100% congruent.

Coming from an atheist ex-momron, I am not sure how to take that, or even if I want to figure out how to take it. :)

I am not sure I do either. Where did I say that?

122 posted on 07/11/2007 7:09:35 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: LeGrande

The Book of Mormon record shows that he visited the America’s after his resurrection.


123 posted on 07/11/2007 7:14:16 AM PDT by sandude
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To: LeGrande

haha.. I have NO clue where that came from! I was just replying to your comment that was in italics. And at first I didn’t know why you typed it. So I went back to my post and was suprised to see it there. I do not remember reading it, I know that I did not type it, I do not remember seeing it on the post preview!! Weird...


124 posted on 07/11/2007 7:14:36 AM PDT by lupie
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To: xzins; jude24
I mentioned those things that have not got one whit, one iota of biblical backing....assumption, immaculate conception, and coredemption of Mary.

I understand, but those things are not the reasons Catholicism does not recognize Prot. denominations as Churches. The Orthodox don't exactly like our formulation of those ideas either (BTW 3 is still very up for debate and I particularly don't like it very much), and yet they are considered proper Churches.

Where the rubber meets the road is, as jude24 very astutely said above, sacramental theology. Catholics believe that the sacraments were instituted by Christ to dispense grace among the faithful. The Church is where the sacraments are. Where they do not exist in their true fulness, there cannot be the Church.

When you good folks hear us say that though, (and please correct me if I am mistaken), you hear that phrase as a total denial that you are Christian at all. Because you view the Church as an invisible institution solely of those who have believed in Christ.

It is very important for non-Catholics to view this document in terms of *our own* ecclesiology, and not any one else's. We go by the sacraments, not just a sinner's prayer. And note well that we recognize one of your sacraments (Baptism) as valid...so we are forced to recognize that there is some element of the Church among you, even if the other sacraments are not.

125 posted on 07/11/2007 7:18:56 AM PDT by Claud
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To: P-Marlowe
Is Christ a liar?

It was Christ who sent the flood.

He would know.

He was there.

You weren't.

Wow, that is irrefutable logic ^_^ ROFLMAO

How did the Koala bears make it to Noah's Ark?

126 posted on 07/11/2007 7:24:20 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: LeGrande

So what do you pretend to be? : )


127 posted on 07/11/2007 7:25:26 AM PDT by Osage Orange (“To call illegal aliens, undocumented workers, is like calling drug dealers unlicensed pharmacists.”)
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To: sandude
The Book of Mormon record shows that he visited the America’s after his resurrection.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

128 posted on 07/11/2007 7:26:25 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: mnehrling

John Paul II affirmed this same point many times.


129 posted on 07/11/2007 7:28:20 AM PDT by tiki
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To: LeGrande
Wow, that is irrefutable logic

Indeed. Either Noah and the ark is a true story or Christ is a liar.

Which is it?

130 posted on 07/11/2007 7:29:17 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Osage Orange
So what do you pretend to be? : )

I am a seeker of truth. Most people call me an atheist ^_^

I also like to poke fun at Fundamentalist Born Agains, who attack other religions.

131 posted on 07/11/2007 7:30:01 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: indcons


Global warming is the only true religion, cleverly combining
hell, fire and damnation with unlimited wasteful spending on
Democratic consultants and other leftist control freaks. /sarc.

.


132 posted on 07/11/2007 7:35:14 AM PDT by OESY
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To: LeGrande
XS>Allah is not the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Israel !

Ever heard of Ishmael?

116 posted on 07/11/2007 7:57:40 AM MDT by LeGrande

A study on the breath of Elohim:

Abram became Abraham

Abram became Abraham when Elohim breathed into Abram
the Ru'ach HaKodesh as indicated by the "HEY" at the end of his name.

Sarai became Sarah

Sarai became Sarah when Elohim breathed into Sarai
the Ru'ach HaKodesh as indicated by the "HEY" at the end of her name.

See the letter : Hey

Ishmael was born to Abram, when Abram was in the flesh, before Elohim breathed the Ru'ach HaKodesh into him.

Isaac was born to Abraham and Sarah after Elohim breathed the Ru'ach HaKodesh into both of them.

So even if Muslims are descendants of Ishmael, Ishmael did not worship the Elohim of Abraham.

b'shem Yah'shua
133 posted on 07/11/2007 7:45:33 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: sageb1

There are 30,000 Christian sects. So far and counting. That’s probably fewer than other major religions.


134 posted on 07/11/2007 7:50:51 AM PDT by RightWhale (It's Brecht's donkey, not mine)
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To: Claud; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy; BibChr; jude24

Claud, where the rubber meets the road is Jesus saying that those who worship must worship in Spirit and in Truth.

Those who teach obvious, made-up UNTRUTH cannot be the true Church, no matter if they’ve got sacramental theology coming out their ears, complete with real-life, true splinters from the actual Golgotha cross itself and the factual, actual Holy Grail to drink from.

Human lineage is of no importance. Props are of no importance. SPIRITUAL, TRUTHFUL worship is what matters. The RC FLUNKS the test with a number of things, the most egregious being: assumption, immaculate conception, and coredemption of Mary.

For all his vaunted, entirely too opulent status, Pope Benedict is an empty vessl, “pontificating” foolishness, traditions of men, and UNTRUTH.


135 posted on 07/11/2007 7:52:49 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: Krankor
You said,

So, then, you concede Osama bin Laden’s brand of Islam is just as much the one, true religion as the Anglicans?

in answer to the posters

That's the difference between a Christian and a Catholic...

Maybe I need another cup of coffee. I'm not understanding how you connect the two

Or do YOU need another cup of joe

136 posted on 07/11/2007 7:53:15 AM PDT by maine-iac7 ( "...but you can't fool all of the people all the time." LINCOLN)
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To: LeGrande
Seek more.

Poke less.

FRegards,

137 posted on 07/11/2007 7:54:00 AM PDT by Osage Orange (“To call illegal aliens, undocumented workers, is like calling drug dealers unlicensed pharmacists.”)
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To: Argus
By the way, which Apostle was the head Apostle ofter the crucifixtion?
138 posted on 07/11/2007 7:56:32 AM PDT by maine-iac7 ( "...but you can't fool all of the people all the time." LINCOLN)
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To: humblegunner
Right after I take the PopeMobile mudding at the river.

Why wait? LOL

139 posted on 07/11/2007 7:57:41 AM PDT by maine-iac7 ( "...but you can't fool all of the people all the time." LINCOLN)
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To: jddqr; Religion Moderator
Do you not consider it personal when someone insults your family?

You've never met my family, have you?

140 posted on 07/11/2007 7:58:01 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (As heard on the Amish Radio Network! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1675029/posts)
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To: XeniaSt; LeGrande

“Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.

How do you come to this understanding?”

It gives us warm fuzzies all over.


141 posted on 07/11/2007 7:59:15 AM PDT by Augustinian monk
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To: danneskjold
If you're only referring to an unbroken line of bishops beginning with the original Apostles, ok, sure. However, I'm not sure how that causes a non-Catholic to be "improper"...

News - Peter was NOT the lead Apostle after the crucification

142 posted on 07/11/2007 8:00:15 AM PDT by maine-iac7 ( "...but you can't fool all of the people all the time." LINCOLN)
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To: DTwistedSisterS
Really? I had no idea the Pope lived in such luxury as you claim

Can you be serious?

143 posted on 07/11/2007 8:01:02 AM PDT by maine-iac7 ( "...but you can't fool all of the people all the time." LINCOLN)
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To: mnehrling
"My second thought was that I’m glad that who is or isn’t a ‘proper Christian’ isn’t a choice of the pope, that decision is God’s."

The first thought here! : )

144 posted on 07/11/2007 8:02:12 AM PDT by LucyJo
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To: wmfights
He simply said that the only legitimate apostolic succession rests with the Roman Catholic Church.

Who was the lead Apostle after the Crucification?

145 posted on 07/11/2007 8:04:17 AM PDT by maine-iac7 ( "...but you can't fool all of the people all the time." LINCOLN)
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To: narses
he IS the valid successor to the Apostles,

Starting with whom?

Who was the frist head Apostle after Christ?

146 posted on 07/11/2007 8:15:46 AM PDT by maine-iac7 ( "...but you can't fool all of the people all the time." LINCOLN)
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To: jude24
Well my Roman Catholic brother -in-law told someone, in my earshot, that “ oh no she is not Catholic, she is a Christian”. So, tell it to your non-separated brethren!
147 posted on 07/11/2007 8:17:00 AM PDT by Bainbridge
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To: Revelation 911
Some of the hard core types here subscribe to the beliefs of Hilaire Belloc, a last century French Catholic supremacist.
He contended that Protestantism and Muhammadanism are both just heretical deviations of the Truth.
One has to wonder how much of that thinking is also Ratzingers.
148 posted on 07/11/2007 8:19:49 AM PDT by Bainbridge
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To: Bainbridge
Some of the hard core types here subscribe to the beliefs of Hilaire Belloc, a last century French Catholic supremacist. He contended that Protestantism and Muhammadanism are both just heretical deviations of the Truth.

Only some???? ROTFL!

149 posted on 07/11/2007 8:22:37 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (As heard on the Amish Radio Network! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1675029/posts)
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To: LeGrande

Oh, well a scientist! That is a whole other religion in itself!


150 posted on 07/11/2007 8:23:37 AM PDT by Bainbridge
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