Posted on 07/10/2007 6:55:28 PM PDT by indcons
Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value.
Protestant leaders immediately responded by saying the claims were offensive and would hurt efforts to promote ecumenism.
Roman Catholic- Anglican relations are already strained over the Church of England's plans to ordain homosexuals and women as bishops. The claims came in a document, from a Vatican watchdog which was approved by the Pope.
It said the branches of Christianity formed after the split with Rome at the Reformation could not be called churches "in the proper sense" because they broke with a succession of popes who dated back to St Peter.
As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.
The document claimed the Catholic church was the "one true church of Christ".
Pope Benedict's commitment to the hardline teaching comes days after he reinstated the Mass in Latin, which was sidelined in the 1960s in an attempt to modernise.
The timing of the announcement fuelled speculation that the pontiff - regarded as an arch-conservative before his election in 2005 - is finally beginning to impose his views on the Catholic Church.
The Vatican said it was restating the position set out by the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 2000 in a document called Domine Jesus because theologians continued to misunderstand it.
At that time, Anglican leaders from around the world made their anger felt by snubbing an invitation to join Pope John Paul II as he proclaimed St Thomas More the patron saint of politicians.
Bishop Wolfgang Huber, head of the Evangelical Church in Germany, said the Vatican document effectively downgraded Protestant churches and would make ecumenical relations more difficult.
He said the pronouncement repeated the "offensive statements" of the 2000 document and was a "missed opportunity" to patch up relations with Protestants.
Hey, what did you expect, he wants to bring back traditional Catholicism. I’d rather have someone like him as head of the Catholic Church than some smarmy Vatican II droid. At least now we can drop all this ecumenical BS and get back to being Protestants and Catholics again.
PS I’m Protestant (and proud of it).
PSS Let’s hope the current Pope’s tough stance against the Protestant CHURCH means he is going to take an even tougher stand against the Islamofascists. Time will tell.
Yes it is, providing you're the Pope.
You're not the Pope, are you?
Do you not consider it personal when someone insults your family?
I disagree...
Direct from the linked article:
It said the branches of Christianity formed after the split with Rome at the Reformation could not be called churches "in the proper sense" because they broke with a succession of popes who dated back to St Peter.He said there was One True Church (with a capital "C") and that is the Church that Christ founded, i.e. the Catholic church. No where was it said that people of other denominations are not Christian.As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.
The document claimed the Catholic church was the "one true church of Christ". The claims came in a document, from a Vatican watchdog which was approved by the Pope.
That's a bit more than simply saying that the Church that Christ founded is the Catholic Church.
And I ask again, why? What is the intent of a statement like this?
In debate on "open" threads, untoward remarks about God, religious figures, prophets, leaders, clergy, saints, authors and such happen all the time. That is is not "making it personal" for purposes of moderating this forum.
On "closed" threads - devotionals, prayer threads and caucuses - such attacks are not tolerated.
There is nothing I can do to prevent posters from "taking it personally." But the "closed" threads are a safe harbor for those who are easily offended.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.
“Do you not consider it personal when someone insults your family?”
Unless your last name is Ratzinger, that argument does’t make ANY sense.
“My second thought was that I’m glad that who is or isn’t a ‘proper Christian’ isn’t a choice of the pope, that decision is God’s.”
Tell that to the anti Mormon crowd around here.
What is the intent of a statement like this?
To reaffirm the teaching of the Church. As to WHY NOW, there's a good discussion of this going on at catholic.com. I refer you to http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=167828 starting with post #21 (I'd rather not copy posts by others verbatim on this board)
That's because you're not Catholic. For us, the Pope is the Holy Father. Next time you hear slurs against the Pope, please consider what it would be like to hear the same slurs against your own father. That's what it feels like.
I'm not suggesting that any criticism of the Pope should be banned -- he is a public figure after all -- just asking for you to see things from our perspective.
Apparently I'm not doing a very good job at expressing myself, so I'll ask it this way:
Does the Catholic Church believe that non-Catholic Christians have a place in Heaven?
If so, why all the fuss about "proper/improper"?
And yes, I read through the posts on the link you gave me. It seems that even Catholics are disagreeing amongst themselves as to the meaning of the Pope's statement.
Fair enough
I know that the Mormon bashing will go on unabated and it wouldn't be any fun if it stopped, but I want everyone to reflect on the Popes words from time to time.
I happen to agree with the Pope a little bit ^_^ Luckily I don't pretend to be a Christian.
I read this as a restatement of the basic belief of Roman Catholicism:
Jesus founded His Church with Peter as its head to be kept and transmitted through apostolic succession. This, in RC belief, is true only of one church.
Other churches, again in RC belief, may have varying degrees of truth, however known constitute the institution described above.
Other churches disagree of course, but RC doctrine disagrees with them.
So, it’s a restatement of the basic beliefs of Roman Catholics about the history and meaning of being Catholic - one Holy and Apostolic Church.
I see Protestants would object, but no more so than RCs would object to their basic beliefs about the history and standing of Protestant churches.
That settles it! The Pope says that none of you are proper Christians. I know that the Mormon bashing will go on unabatedYou DO know that the founders of this country didn't consider Mormonism OR Catholicism proper religions, don't you? Mormonism is just a plain Con man's best work and Catholicism was thought a mere political power grab by men and not representative of the "Church" at all. It was good enough for the founders...
Huh.
You mean it did not end with the death of St. Peter, to be later restored by Joseph Smith?
Imagine yourself in my position as a 3rd or 4th grader in a Catholic school. My Mother was Catholic, my Father was not.
I recall the pain I felt when the sister (nun) instructed us that anyone who was not Catholic could not enter heaven.
What!!! My Dad who worked hard at his factory job, was a perfectionist at what he turned out, stood on his feet all day, and turned his paycheck over to our Mother to run the house, would never be with God when his earthly life ended?
No, I wasn't aware at my young age of what Dad actually did everyday on his job. I learned more as I got older.
I did realize that he supported all of us.
No. I don't believe ANYONE on this earth has the knowledge and power to decide who God will choose to be with Him in eternity.
Guess I'm not a "real Catholic" anymore, along with the "practicing" Catholics who never miss receiving Communiion; even those, I suspect, who practice artificial birth control which the Catholic Church forbids, and some of whom rarely, if ever, avail themselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
One of the laws of the Church is to confess one's sins at least once a year. Are all those receiving Communiion fulfilling that obligation?
While I'm getting a bit off track here, it doesn't hurt to take an honest look at the bigger picture.
I would have a lot more to say than that to the pope!
and this validates Islam ?
Lee Harvey Oswald was a decendant of Noah
same diff -
In point of fact, the Response emphasizes:
"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church"[12].
Basically, the thrust of the message is this: Protestants don't have Apostolic Succession nor the Sacraments (particularly the Eucharistic Mystery), so they're not, strictly speaking, "Church." The Responses, like the underlying encyclicals, do not imply that we Protestants aren't Christian - it's just that to a Catholic, Apostolic Succession and the Sacraments are the raison d'etre for the Church.
What I find more interesting is that this suggests a little fuzziness around the edges of extra ecclesium nulla salus - you don't, strictly speaking, need to be a communicant in the Roman or Eastern churches to be a Christian. It appears that Rome does recognzize the ecclesial communities as "quasi-churches" at least on this limited question.
No one should think the Roman Catholics are being unfair or unreasonable in this viewpoint. If Apostolic Succession and Sacrementalism **are** accurate, than the Protestant Churches are not "Churches." It is the inevitable conclusion of their central theology - and has a lot more basis in reality than the inadvertent and entirely unsupported conclusion of too many Protestants and Evangelicals that Catholics can't be Christian. ("She's not Christian, she's Catholic" is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.)
Just my 2 cents worth.
It makes Islam less wrong than, say, paganism or polytheism.
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