Posted on 05/18/2007 8:06:22 AM PDT by NYer
Looks to be good thread material, NYer. Looking forward to seeing the responses generated.
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Heh. :)
O Son of God, Holy Jesus! To Thee do I dedicate my body and soul, all my prayers and deeds, my joys and sufferings, all that I am and all that I have. With a joyful heart I surrender myself to Thy bondage of love. To Thee will I devote my service of my own free will for the salvation of mankind, and for the help of the Holy Church whose Leader Thou art. From now on my only desire is to do all things with Thee, through Thee, and for Thee. I know I can accomplish nothing with my own strength, whereas Thou canst do everything because you are the Son of God, and Thou art always victorious. Grant, therefore, O Helper of the faithful, that my family, my parish, and my homeland might become in truth the Kingdom where Thou reignest with Thy Father, world without end. Amen.
Good articles. Interesting.
What a wonderful way to explain our devotion to Mary.
All generations do call Her Blessed!
“Blessed are you among women!”
Without getting into the distinctions between Lateia, Dulia and Hyperdulia, the late Jaroslav Pelikan, a Lutheran turned Orthpdox said something I like in his book “Mary through the centuries.” It relates to the Orthodox worship of Icons. to which Orthodox give devotion of the sort that few Catholics given to the Sacred Heart pictures and statues. The idea is that God works through
people and things, so that even in Acts Paul is said to have such power as a healer than the people of Ephesus coveted articles belonging to him. What we Catholics and Orthodox worship in the power of Almighty God as conveyed by persons on who he has bestowed his divine power. Most directly God healed in the person of Jesus, who shared that power with his disciples. The person on which he most fully bestowed his power was his mother. God wishes all mankind to be raised from the pit to the ranks of the gods. Evidentally some will and some won’t, but among those who will Mary must be ranked the highest. At the pinnicle of humanity stands the Virgin. When we lift up our eyes to her, we look aways even higher, to the majesty of the God whos sustains her and us. Harnack said that we give to Mary ther place in the scheme of thinks that Arius gave to Christ. In a rough sense that is true. But let me turn it around: in giving such a low place to Mary, one hardly greater than that they give to St. Elizabeth( although they generally ignore her altogether) they offer us a rather low Christology, a kind of unrecognized Arianism.
I was thinking about all these conversations yesterday and thinking that atg least my experience of being Catholic is an experience of something like a great wealth or abundance. In a moment of inner turmoil I thought that Katherine Laboure and Augustine of Hippo were both people who knew where I was coming from and who would pray for me — and I felt conducted by them to our Lord. I don’t pretend to be able to make sense (much less theology) out of this, but I don’t complain either because it was to our Lord that I was being conducted.
May God accept and bless your self dedication, as I'm sure he will. There are greater things, I think, in such a self-offering that we can imagine or pray for, and I thank God for this act of yours.
Yes, we pour out such effusive praise for the Virgin Mary that it might seem excessive. If Mary’s THAT special, then what’s left that’s reserved for God and God alone?
The answer is the Mass.
I’d invite David and any other Protestant to carefully comb the texts of the two forms of Mass of the Roman Church, and note carefully whether there is ANY indication that the sacrifice that is being offered there is being offered to anyone else but God Himself:
http://www.liturgies.net/Liturgies/Catholic/TridentineLatinEnglish.htm
http://www.liturgies.net/Liturgies/Catholic/NovusOrdo.htm
Personal devotions are one thing, and they yes can even go to excess sometimes, but the very highest form of worship Catholics offer God is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross as made present in the Mass. Not our own private prayer.
Our little prayers to our Mother in Heaven are peanuts compared to that awesome sacrifice which reverberates through time, and which has wiped away sin for ever.
My sons were a gift from God. I didn't bring them into or "give them" to this world. That was God's doing, not mine.
I understand the point he was trying to make, but with all due respect, giving credit to any of God's creation for His works isn't glorifying Him. It is bringing him down to our own level.
Is this a Caucus thread? Just curious before it turns into an apologetic one.
Regards
Carry on.
Regards
Doesn’t your husband ever thank you for being the mother of his children? I thank the boss-lady all the time! Even before I was a calf-lick.
Who wrote the above words: you or God?
-A8
-A8
You (and your husband) provided the DNA; God provided the life force. In the case of Jesus, only Mary provided the DNA. Jesus followed the Ten Commandments and 'honored' His mother and father. In John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on the Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother. As Catholics, we follow the example of Jesus and honor Mary as our Mother.
“He’s not against Mary as such, but sincerely believes that such devotions are excessive and must necessarily be giving to the Blessed Virgin the devotion and dedication that are due to her Son.”
Jesus is not jealous of his mother. Her glory is his. It’s not like we have a limited amount of devotion and have to figure a percentage to give to each.
The Son of God derived his human (physical) nature from the body of Mary. She is truly the Mother of God by His choice. We cannot honor her enough, and when we do we honor Him, they go together.
That is a very good point you make about the Mass, which is the center of our faith and religious practice.
Also, devotion to Mary always leads us closer to God. It is not a distraction or substitute, but an enhancement of our spiritual life. Just as at Cana, when Mary was asked what they should do, she indicated her Son and said, “Do as he tells you.” This is what knowing Mary does for us too.
What is the main devotion to Mary? Praying the Rosary, which is Christocentric! It’s all about the life of Jesus, the mysteries of Jesus, the Redemption of mankind through Christ. 20 minutes of saying the Rosary is 20 minutes meditating directly upon the Gospel and its meaning. Praying to Mary one is always focused on God, it cannot be otherwise.
This is something which a person discovers as he/she learns more about Mary and honors her. You focus on Mary, and find yourself understanding more about God and loving Him more!
Mary accepted her role, no more, no less. That God chose her over all other women does make her special. Recognizing her as an example to follow, that I can buy. Trying to use her special relationship with her son in any way, no can do. I find it quite grating to hear that we should ask her to pray for us, because Jesus will better hear her requests on our behalf, out of His respect for her.
It has nothing to do with "better hear". Christ honors His mother by giving her a principle role in interceding for the Church. When we recognize this, we honor both her and Christ.
-A8
You think Jesus was an XX male? Could be you think Mary may have been an XY female. Are you telling me your Church's teaching on Jesus Christ's DNA?
Jesus followed the Ten Commandments and 'honored' His mother and father. In John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on the Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother. As Catholics, we follow the example of Jesus and honor Mary as our Mother.
I respect her as our Mother.
intercede - act between parties with a view to reconciling differences
Your Church is at odds with Christ?
Your Church is at odds with Christ?
No. That is not the sense of 'intercede' I am using. I am using the term in the same sense used when we ask someone else to pray for us.
-A8
I realize that’s how y’all mean it. None of the definitions of the word fit that meaning. Look at the word’s roots, inter and cede. When you cede something to someone else, what are you doing? Where there were once differences between you, one of you has given in. So, when y’all are asking Mary to intercede, what are you really asking her to do?
What if the people and Saints you ask to carry your prayers to Jesus did not themselves make it to Heaven???
I find that kind of thing irritating as well, but there's no question in my mind that some people have great intercessory mojo. My mother-in-law is a great woman of prayer and about 5 miles from here there's a wonderfully pious and, IMHO, noble black man who is a Baptist preacher and a strong intercessor. It all seems kind of arbitrary in a way, but there it is.
I do think it interesting to say "Mary accepted her role,..." What a role! It's not trivial, not simply done. And I think the accepting of it, like marriage or parenthood or life as a Christian, is in one way, "once and for all" but in another way, as Luther sort of suggested, something you have to do every day.
I am still finding out what it means to be a daddy of my child, now 23.
For Mary, a life of finding out what it means to be a mommy, and the mommy of Jesus, the incarnate Son of God, I would think that would be something difficult for us to really empathize with and ridiculous for us to just toss off. However you decide to translate "theotokos", not only to "bear" and to bring to birth, but to suckle, to dress and undress, to bathe, to hear the first words, to track the wonderful years of strong prepubescent childhood, the see the coming manhood, and to know that with adulthood comes a kind of separation and transformation for both parent and child ....
You can say "no more, no less", but when I think how harrowed I have been by one daughter, whom I certainly think to be divine, but I don't expect any theologian to agree with me, I can imagine little "more" than the role assigned to Mary.
Then, on the off chance that I were to make it to heaven, I would blush and be embarrassed. I trust God and His good will.
But I'm confident they did make it to heaven, so it's just a thought experiment.
And I'm not sure "carry my prayers to Jesus" is really the way I'd say it, though I think I've read that kind of lingo before. I think more of asking them to pray with me and for me, not as though Jesus couldn't hear me unless they sort of tossed my prayers over His transom.
nO NO NO NO NO no no no no no
To cede these days may mean to yield, but the word stem went through a lot to get there. Cedere meant “to go”, one of many Latin words with that meaning. Other English words with cedere in their background would include “proceed” “procession” “access” and, yes, concede.
An intercessor is a go between, almost literally. A concession is a going with.
You wrote:
“Look at the word’s roots, inter and cede. When you cede something to someone else, what are you doing? Where there were once differences between you, one of you has given in. So, when y’all are asking Mary to intercede, what are you really asking her to do?”
What nonsense!
I have seen this sort of nonsensical Protestant etymology attempt before. A Protestant takes a word, defines it incorrectly, or uses it incorrectly, or claims it has only strictly one usage or simply has no idea what the original meaning was in French or Latin or Greek or whatever.
Any good dictionary will tell a reader that “cede” is not Latin for giving in, but is from the Latin verb “to go.”
Even in English intercede doesn’t mean “giving in” to someone else. My Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary (10th edition) says this: “to intervene between parties with a view to reconciling differences: MEDIATE”
You wanna go with mediate, works for me. It was the word that kept coming to my mind anyway. Think a mediator or intermediary is needed between two who are of one mind?
I love it when you scold me. LOL So we’re talking about something that has movement, right?
If you think that the meaning of words is limited to their etymology, then you will be speaking and writing a language that no one else understands.
-A8
Do you think you are of one mind with God?
After all, wasn’t the whole incarnation/redemption process Jesus went through part of His reconciling us with the Father?
I'm a work in progress.
Let's scroll back a bit. Do you agree with or disagree with this statement made by adiaireton8?
It has nothing to do with "better hear". Christ honors His mother by giving her a principle role in interceding for the Church. When we recognize this, we honor both her and Christ.
After all, wasn’t the whole incarnation/redemption process Jesus went through part of His reconciling us with the Father?
Yes, which is why Christ is my intercessor.
You wrote:
“I’m a work in progress.”
That’s a very Catholic thought.
“Let’s scroll back a bit. Do you agree with or disagree with this statement made by adiaireton8? ‘It has nothing to do with “better hear”. Christ honors His mother by giving her a principle role in interceding for the Church. When we recognize this, we honor both her and Christ.’”
Christ created His own mother. (John 1) After you realize that, then it certainly isn’t too difficult to realize Christ shares His office of mediator with His mother and the saints for our benefit. If I understand what adiaireton8 is saying properly, then I certainly agree with him.
“Yes, which is why Christ is my intercessor.”
Mine too. But He also shares that office with His greatest creations - His saints. This is along the same lines as His saints reigning with Him in heaven and judging the dead at the end of time. Christ is a generous Lord. He shared in our humanity so that we could share in His divine life.
You trying to tell me they get what they ask for in prayer or that they have been given the gift of charisma, which means their walk is vibrant in a way that draws people to them & their beliefs?
I do think it interesting to say "Mary accepted her role,..." What a role! It's not trivial, not simply done.
I didn't mean to trivialize it.
And I think the accepting of it, like marriage or parenthood or life as a Christian, is in one way, "once and for all" but in another way, as Luther sort of suggested, something you have to do every day.
I agree, though in many ways "it" helps to carry you along. The more you cooperate with "it", the more "it" carries you.
I am still finding out what it means to be a daddy of my child, now 23.
They're great teachers, aren't they? You go into it thinking you've got a lot to teach them & you do, but at some point you discover that you've learned as much or more from them as you've taught to them.
For Mary, a life of finding out what it means to be a mommy, and the mommy of Jesus, the incarnate Son of God, I would think that would be something difficult for us to really empathize with and ridiculous for us to just toss off. However you decide to translate "theotokos", not only to "bear" and to bring to birth, but to suckle, to dress and undress, to bathe, to hear the first words, to track the wonderful years of strong prepubescent childhood, the see the coming manhood, and to know that with adulthood comes a kind of separation and transformation for both parent and child ....
Mary's son was a great teacher....
You can say "no more, no less", but when I think how harrowed I have been by one daughter, whom I certainly think to be divine, but I don't expect any theologian to agree with me, I can imagine little "more" than the role assigned to Mary.
Some children are more difficult than others. Do you think Jesus was a trying child?
Movement. Lovely question. The whole thing is lovely. So many things come down to "making up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ", a mind blowing concept.
I like to think that the imagery, the framework for the metaphor of intercession, is one of a royal court. And within that framework, Mary has no rank "of her own right", but has a courtesy title. And, again within that framework, she has influence and access not of her own power but by courtesy granted and mandated by Him who is sovereign by right.
But what can it mean to say that she has access when God says he dwells not only in high and lofty places but also with him who is of a contrite heart? WE have access to God, after all. And certainly in my latest "flash" the role of Catherine Laboure and Augustine was that of conducting me to Christ, as if to say,"Here, tell Him yourself." Certainly motion.
Yeah, that. I defy anyone to make theological sense of that. I wouldn't say my MIL or Pastor Luck are especially "charismatic" in the popular sense of the word. But, yeah, they sho' 'nuff got some charism.
Do you think Jesus was a trying child?
heck, I think He's a trying Lord! He keeps on telling me He loves me as I am. Then just when I start to relax He says,"But that doesn't mean what you're doing is okay; I have better things in mind for you." That's trying! I was thinking more in terms of, you know, a nap. Maybe a beer and then a nap. Maybe a pizza, a beer, and a nap.
I would love, I pray to continue to be so tried.
Evangelicals would do a LOT better if they were more like Mormons:
1) Did not nitpick to death other Christian religions, or focus on them at all.
2) Strengthened themselves spiritually focusing on repentance and salvation through Christ.
3) Sent out their youths and couples ( at the family’s expense) to serve 2 year missions to the rich and the poor.
4) Ask every member ( rich and poor) to tithe.
5) Ran their churches with no or minimal clergy.
5) Had DAILY early morning religious classes before they sent their teens to school.
And,,,,Evangelicals would do better if they were more like Catholics, by opening church schools.
Not only would Evangelicals be spiritually stronger, our entire nation would experience a revival.
Okay, I understand the concept of asking a fellow Christian to pray with us or for us. I do it all the time.
But, I don’t call my friend 10 times, and say “Hey George, fellow Christian, pray for me” and hang up and say an “Our Father,” then call him 10 more times, etc. He usually gets the point the first time.
Also, when I ask a fellow Christian to pray, I usually let them know what I need prayer for. If it is particularly personal, I’ll at least say “Hey, could you pray for a personal problem I’m having?” It seems like asking Mary over and over again millions of times daily to “pray for us” in a generic sense is, well, overkill.
Finally, I presume Mary in Heaven is spending most or all of her time praying and worshipping God. So, by being asked millions of times to “pray for us,” what is she supposed to do, pencil in even more prayer time? Pray harder? What, exactly, is she supposed to do that she wasn’t doing already?
I presume you are referring to the decades of the rosary.
The Holy Rosary is considered a perfect prayer because within it lies the awesome story of our salvation. With the Rosary in fact we meditate the Gospel mysteries of joy, of sorrow and the glory of Jesus and Mary. It's a simple prayer, humble so much like Mary. It's a prayer we can all say together with Her, the Mother of God. With the Hail Mary we invite Her to pray for us. Our Lady always grants our request. She joins Her prayer to ours. Therefore it becomes ever more useful, because what Mary asks She always receives, Jesus can never say no to whatever His Mother asks for. In every apparition, the heavenly Mother has invited us to say the Rosary as a powerful weapon against evil, to bring us to true peace. With your prayer made together with Your heavenly Mother, you can obtain the great gift of bringing about a change of hearts and conversion. Each day, through prayer you can drive away from yourselves and from your homeland many dangers and many evils.
It can seem a repetitive prayer but instead it is like two sweethearts who many times say one another the words: "I love you"...
Jesus can say whatever he wants. He's Jesus.
That said, I would trust that Mary would pray for that which can be granted, to which Jesus would not say no. Just as if I ask for wisdom or greater faith, Jesus would never say no. If I ask for that new job, Jesus might say no, depending on whether the job is right for me. I won't be any more likely to get the job just because I get Mary on my side, if the job is wrong.
Still, your answer begs the question, how is prayer that consists of 10 appeals to BVM for every one appeal to the Father a "perfect" prayer? I might be inclined to agree if in fact the Rosary consisted of recitations of the Psalms instead of fifty Hail Marys. I can respect your viewpoint but it doesn't answer my question, which is basically, wouldn't it be more appropriate to ask Mary once to pray for me (us), and then proceed to pray to the Father for the next 20 minutes or so?
it is like two sweethearts who many times say one another the words: "I love you"...
My wife and I had our 21st anniversary dinner last night. I think we managed with one or two I love you's. Fifty would have been a bit much. :-)
There's that He has risen part too, ya know?
I like to think that the imagery, the framework for the metaphor of intercession, is one of a royal court. And within that framework, Mary has no rank "of her own right", but has a courtesy title. And, again within that framework, she has influence and access not of her own power but by courtesy granted and mandated by Him who is sovereign by right.
That works for me.
But what can it mean to say that she has access when God says he dwells not only in high and lofty places but also with him who is of a contrite heart? WE have access to God, after all. And certainly in my latest "flash" the role of Catherine Laboure and Augustine was that of conducting me to Christ, as if to say,"Here, tell Him yourself." Certainly motion.
What took a "flash" for you is ingrained in Protestant thinking, which is why we tend to be such of a pain to Catholics about the whole intercessor gig.
Back to my question about motion. If we have motion, what was the starting point? Would you say that starting point had to have been wrong or at the very least, not totally correct?
My remark about making up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ is of course a reference to a remark +Paul made -- after the resurrection. How could Paul suggest there was anything left to be done when he writes so well about the all-sufficient merit of Christ?
It didn't "take a 'flash'" for me to realize anything, if by that you think I had a new thought that I hadn't had before. Why you all "tend to be such of a pain" is because you are so sure of what we thing that you won't let us tell you. You spend energy saying,"Such and such is wrong!" and when we say, "Sure is!", then you guys say,"But you think that, don't try to tell me you don't!" This sort of hinders the flow of the conversation.
It intrigues me though, that you like the idea of saints conducting me to Christ and encouraging me to continue to pray to Him.
I am still balking at getting precise about the motion concept because it seems you are wanting to suggest that Mary intercedes or mediates between the church and Christ so that then you can say the Church is wrong about something. Certainly we, as individuals, from time to time and most of the time feel a certain absence from God or separation from Him. I guess I have come to think that's when He's so close I can't see Him at all.
Two more things to add to the confusion: (1)another thing we call Mary is advocate. And since Jesus is advocate and the Holy Spirit is paraclete (advocate) there is a confusion of layers of images and metaphors here. The other thought is that this whole piety of Marian and saintly intercession is, I think, based more on experience than a kind of deductive reasoning. Good things seem to happen -- not good things like winning the Lottery, good things like seeing what a jerk I am and how wonderful God is and somehow gaining more and more strength in that confidence -- when I fire off a miraculous medal prayer or pray, as I am about to do with the boss-lady, the Rosary. Maybe some are above needing the assistance of the Holy ones. I'll take all the help I can get, and if praying to Mary for her intercession is -- as it has proved to be in my life -- consistently followed by increasing love and faith in our Lord, I ain't quittin'.
That is not what the Rosary is. That's just the words of the Rosary (more or less), and there's more to the Rosary than the words.
An excellent statement which reminds me of my struggle (last year) towards Orthodoxy as an evangelical. Our priest answered our question about the Theotokos with a statement very similar to your point. He said, “Mary is like the moon. She creates no light on her own, but reflects perfectly the glorious light of her son.” My wife (who struggled terribly with fear of Mary) was stunned, and we immediately understood the truth of his declaration.
Just to let you know, I read your response here to me & I’ve been meaning to get back to the discussion. I was scrolling back to find another post & didn’t just wanna bump this without telling you why.
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