Posted on 01/13/2007 10:09:52 AM PST by Dennis Paul Morony
For all it's been going on for years now, not everyone agrees with me that using girls (and young women) as altar servers might be worth keeping in the future.
Recently, however, this begin to change when I was visiting relatives in a small country parish located deep in the South Texas brush, cattle, goat, and cactus country, not far from where John Wayne made "The Alamo."
The lady of the house pointed out that for many girls in such small out of the way places, training to become an altar server is the closest girls (as well as boys) can ever get to a Catholic Religious Education.
In this case, at least, the results were pretty impressive.
At Communion time every altar server, boy or girl, was ready with her (or his) long-handled wooden deal with a round thing at the end. I was impressed, as I hadn't seen them used in years, outside traditional Latin Masses.
"So, what say? Yea or Nay? Do we keep on with altar girls in the future? Or do we throw the baby out with the bath water?"
Thanks!
Dennis
Starting girl altar boys was dumb.
Stopping them abrubtly would be even dumber.
I think it was a bad idea from the beginning. That said, I have heard of one pastor who uses it to "recruit" girls for the religious life. The boy and girl altar servers have separate retreats and events, and the girls are encouraged to think about becoming nuns or sisters, while the boys are encouraged to think about the priesthood.
That said, I don't think they can be stopped until the real bane of everybody's existence, the hebes (cupbearers, that is, the little old ladies who "distribute" Communion every three feet down the aisle of the church) are done away with. There's no need for them.
Interestingly, it sounds in the case of your church as if they must give Communion the old style.
Some priests that inherited parishes with girl altar-boys came up with a good idea. They still allow the girls to serve but have them wear little nun habits. Really ticks off the feminists.
Livius, my friend!
Thanks for reminding me of something I've tried to block in my mind, not always successfully, especially since I've gradually come to realize that maybe as many as 30% to 40% of the youngest members often show signs of a chemical dependency, to put it politely!
Thus, what you say is Only too true...
Dennis
Great idea! I've never seen that - but I bet it does have smoke coming out of more than a few feminist ears. Hah!
Allowing of altar girls was THE WORST mistake of Pope John Paul II papacy, and no amount of sugar coating in my eyes can justify such a rupture of tradition.
The girls at the parish you mentioned have plenty of other chances to gain a religous education rather than pushing boys off the altar. Thorw the baby out with the bathwater? Sorry, the whole mess is pure poison.
Actually, per capita, more female religous come from parishes that have no altar girls.
That's a patten.
I have two little girls and I have absolutely no problem telling them that serving on the altar is a boy's job. Not that they couldn't do the actual physical tasks, and in many cases do them better, but it is a step in discerning a vocation to the priesthood.
My three year old already knows all the altar terms and how they are used (thank you catechism of the Good Shepard). She isn't going to miss out by not being up there on the altar performing. And she's smart enough to know that at an early age.
I quite seriously doubt that any boys are "pushed off the altar". Far more likely is that not enough boys volunteer. Certainly that is the case in my church.
There's nothing wrong with altar girls.
Bad idea...even in Bracketville.
"At Communion time every altar server, boy or girl, was ready with her (or his) long-handled wooden deal with a round thing at the end. I was impressed, as I hadn't seen them used in years, outside traditional Latin Masses"
It's a pretty minor problem in Church and if you really did impose their immediate elimination, a lot of people will be alienated. I go to a very conservative NO that does have the female servers too and it appears to work ok. They have lots of servers at Mass, up to 10 or 12 (boys and girls) in a small church and they all do a good job.
If we ever get the Universal indult, it will be interesting how this issue is treated in Tridentine rite. Here, one can argue easily it's for boys only.
The modernists treated the faith of so many with contempt by arbitrarily imposing so many changes. Orthodox Catholics should allow charity to take precedence if the matter is not of sin and with time try to restore the better liturgical choices.
In my parish the number of boys willing to do altar service declined precipitously with the introduction of girl altar boys. We still get the boys but it is more by coercion of the parents. That said, the girls who do serve do a generally more dedicated job and stay with it longer. I think they should be phased out.
In my parish the number of boys willing to do altar service declined precipitously with the introduction of girl altar boys. We still get the boys but it is more by coercion of the parents. That said, the girls who do serve do a generally more dedicated job and stay with it longer. I think they should be phased out.
There is EVERYTHING wrong with altar girls. The thing is that in many(probably the majority) of parishes, serving at the altar is now seen as a female role now, and with this, boys have less of a chance to interact with the priests, therefore, there is a great possibility of vocations being lost. And again, parishes that have strong altar boy programs such as SS Cyrill $ Methodius and Assumption Grotto, both in the Detroit archdiocese, also produce the most female religous as well.
I am not just opposed to altar girls(and in general with the exception of altar boys who serve the priest during mass) but I am opposed to all lay involvment in clerical roles. It is the biggest reason why I mostly attend the TLM, not because of language, but I am sick of lay and female involvment in what should be roles reserved for the clergy.
I lived in Italy for a while and attended Mass at St Peters and the other great basilicas quite often and not ONCE did I see any altar girls at these masses.
I wonder why the Vatican allows it in other dioceses around the world, yet refuse to allow it their OWN backyard?
Maybe because deep down they KNOW it's a bad idea??
Since both boys AND girls are serving, precisely WHY would "serving at the altar [be] seen as a female role"??
"And again, parishes that have strong altar boy programs such as SS Cyrill $ Methodius and Assumption Grotto, both in the Detroit archdiocese, also produce the most female religous as well."
And is it not possible that those parishes have an overall strong catechistic effort, which is actually what results in both???
"I am not just opposed to altar girls(and in general with the exception of altar boys who serve the priest during mass) but I am opposed to all lay involvment in clerical roles. It is the biggest reason why I mostly attend the TLM, not because of language, but I am sick of lay and female involvment in what should be roles reserved for the clergy.
And what roles would those be?? Certainly "altar serving" is no such thing.
At first I did not like it, but I do like it now. The girls seem to take it much more seriously than the boys. It is here to stay so why we are discussing it seems unnecessary.
Why not? Are they priests?
There is no such thing as the "American Catholic Church". And, no.
The lady of the house pointed out that for many girls in such small out of the way places, training to become an altar server is the closest girls (as well as boys) can ever get to a Catholic Religious Education.
What, they have no parents?
Who cares if the girls take to it, the thing is that female altar servers came asd a result of feminist pressure, and sadly teh Vatican on this issue caved, but even then the Vatican said that boys serving on the altar is strongly preferred, but sadly in terms of liturgy, most US parishes are disobidient.
I am not sure how permanent it is, because many of the parishes that strongly pushed for girls on the altar now lack servers in general.
The FACT is that altar serving is by in large in many parishes seen as a female role, and hence, it has become VERY difficult in many parishes to recruit males for those roles.
The presence of girls renders boys less likely to wish to assume the role of altar server. Boys prefer to do "all-boy" type things and when you add girls into the mix it starts to seem girly to them and they flee. Girls have no such bias against doing boy things. So when you start adding girls to a group you very often end up with the group dominated by girls. This has happened or is happening to most intellectual and cultural pursuits in our civilization today, leaving boys and men with only sports, the military, and other physical pursuits seeming "truly" masculine, and girls are even encroaching in this area (did you know some schools are making some of their sports teams co-ed now). It's a huge problem, because boys naturally gravitate towards male-dominated areas and away from mixed-gender areas. But with the feminization of our culture, there are very few male-dominated areas in our society left, in which they can feel comfortable. Serving in the sanctuary should be one of those areas left to males as it is meant to lead to the priesthood.
As for girls being better and more dedicated altar servers, you can chalk that up to the feminization of our culture too, in which boys are either forced to feminize or left by the wayside, rather than being taught manly virtue.
Female altar servers should be continued, and I say that as a former altar boy.
P.S. One hundred years ago, cheerleading was an all-male activity.
Opposed suh, unalterably opposed.
(From "Advise and Consent" for the multitude of you too young to remember).
Yo, Larry!
Thanks a bunch for that info. Going over 30 was one of the worst things I've ever done, CRS "Can't Remember Stuff" gets ahold of you and won't let go.
Such being the case, if THAT is a "patten," then what do we call the small gold plate in the priest's hands he uses to offer the host?
Thanks for the input,
Dennis
Wow!
Or "Guau!" as we say the same sound in Spanish: to think that there is at least one other of "us" to whom Allen Drury was (or better is) a living memory.
But!
Speaking of CRS -- was the character saying "Opposed suh, unalterably opposed" one of the lucky ones to wind up at the business end of a Soviet KGB (or was a GRU?) firing squad after "The Big Takeover," or did he have the bad luck to windup up in the Funny Farm as an anti-Soviet 1096?
Thanks!
Dennis
I like the idea of separate retreats and encouraging the girls to be nuns. That would get rid of some girls, pronto!
Somehow the retreats encouraging boys to become priests does not seem to threatening to boys.
Sorry, don't believe it.
If the boys "interest" is that easily derailed, they have no vocation in the first place.
Believe what you want, but the FACT is that the number of altar boys dropped dramatically in the last 12 years once females were allowed to serve at the altar. I,unlike you, am not blind to reality.
I've heard it, too. From a church musician who definitely knows about this stuff.
Once it's perceived as a "girl thing," the boys vanish.
And there weren't other things going on that might also have contributed?? But somehow you KNOW that, incontrovertibly, it just HAD to be the admission of girls. Sorry, but you can call black "white" all day, that doesn't make it "white".
What you have is called an "opinion"---not a "fact".
This is called "opinion", not evidence. In a court, it would qualify as "hearsay". I don't care what you guys have "heard". Unless and until there is some actual EVIDENCE presented (like a study by some organization with the wherewithal to gather actual FACTS), I'll take it as "unproven".
Oh, please, what's your "evidence" in the other direction? Where's your study? Or is your opinion better just because it's yours?
This woman has worked at churches and seen the fact that when the girls take over, the boys leave.
Should the American Catholic Church Continue with Altar Girls, Yea or Nay?
Of course!
I am a former Catholic.
A few years ago my local church had its annual outdoor nativity pagent. The boys of the church were out bid by the girls of the church to become Wise Men. All the mothers tittered and the boys were relegated to carrying stuff. A couple of other boys were suckered into the main roles, Joseph and the innkeeper. Otherwise an all girl cast.
This continued for a couple of years.
Every year I hear that boys leave this church by 6th grade.
Of course they do, there is no role for them.
The women of the church drive them out.
The "why things will never get better" attitude strikes. Our Holy Fathers in the past were not "charitable" as you call it with the enemies of faith, and that is exactly what girl altar boy supporters are. Nor did they dilly-dally and wait for people to come about to their point of view. If the Church has a spot or blemish, you should immediately cleanse it if it is in your power.
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