Salt Lake Catholic Diocese gets new bishop [Most Rev. John C. Wester]

Deseret Morning News ^ | 01-09-07 | Elaine Jarvik

[Salvation]

Tuesday, January 9, 2007

Salt Lake Catholic Diocese gets new bishop

By Elaine Jarvik

Deseret Morning News

      The new bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake City is described as humble and caring — the kind of man who not only visits the sick and elderly but who rolls up his sleeves to wash their dishes.

Tom Smart, Deseret Morning News

Salt Lake Bishop John C. Wester

      The Most Rev. John C. Wester was named Salt Lake City's new Catholic bishop on Monday, filling the nearly yearlong vacancy left when former Bishop George Niederauer was named archbishop of San Francisco. Since Bishop Niederauer's installation last February, Bishop Wester has served as his auxiliary archbishop in the city Wester's family has called home for four generations.
      Now the pope has called him to Utah, a place that his predecessor assures him is full of people who are "hospitable, gracious and kind." It's also a place, unlike San Francisco, where the Catholic Church is relatively small, with fewer resources. "More of a missionary diocese," as Bishop Wester noted in an interview Monday evening after a day that included Mass, a press conference and a tour of his new city.
      He noted that the Catholic Church in Utah is growing, "and there's a lot of excitement because of that growth."
      The 56-year-old bishop, Salt Lake City's ninth since 1891, has spent his entire career so far in the San Francisco area. But Utah is now his home, he said.
      "I would expect to be here till I retire," he said.
      He will be installed at the Cathedral of the Madeleine on March 14.
      Susan Northway, director of the office of religious education in the Salt Lake Diocese, arrived at work early Monday morning and immediately heard laughter coming from the office of Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald, diocesan administrator.
      "I thought 'That's a very good sign,"' Northway said about the new bishop, whom she found approachable, modest and open.
      Later, at a press conference, Bishop Wester commented that "so many ethnic groups make up the rich tapestry of this local church."

       Then he spoke briefly in Spanish, saying he was pleased that there are so many who speak Spanish in the diocese. Just last month, he said, he participated in a 12-mile pilgrimage in honor of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and he sees his transfer to Salt Lake City "as an extension of that pilgrimage of faith in which I am guided by Mary's example and her intercession for us, her dear children."
      Tony Yapias, director of Proyecto Latino de Utah, was pleased that the new bishop is already reaching out to Utah Latinos, 70 percent of whom are Catholic.
      "I think that speaks volumes," he said. "For someone to come into the state of Utah and immediately say 'the Spanish-speaking community is important to me,' that's a tremendous plus."
      Bishop Wester, who is chairman-elect of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops' Committee on Migration, said that the church's "Welcoming the Stranger Among Us" doctrine seeks to help immigrants integrate into Catholic parishes and American society.
      Bishop Wester also reached out to the LDS Church.
      "A wonderful relationship exists between this local church and the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," he said after being introduced to the media. "I understand that there is a wonderful ecumenical and interfaith spirit in this diocese, and I am eager to add to this dialogue even as I benefit from it."
      In San Francisco, as vicar for the clergy, the bishop was also responsible for meeting both with victims of clergy abuse and with the offending priests.
      "That has taken a lot of energy and a lot of finesse and political acumen," said Msgr. Harry Schlitt of the San Francisco Archdiocese. "And a deep spirituality, which he has."
      Bishop Wester said part of his mission as head of the Catholic Church in Utah will be to help encourage more people to become priests and nuns. Parents, too, need to encourage their children, he said, adding that many parents support the vocation in theory but then say "not my son."
      He was 13 when he joined the seminary, embarking on the path to becoming a priest. He had been moved, he says, when he saw a priest saying Mass, "bringing Christ to people." It's the best of both worlds, he said of his vocation: "Working with God and working with people."
      Last fall, Bishop Wester was given the Person of the Year Award by the St. Vincent de Paul Society of San Francisco. Although the society has its roots in the Catholic Church, it is independent from the church, said executive director Peter Wise. This was the first time the society had given its award — for service and support to people in need — to a bishop.
      What impressed the organization, Wise said, was the one-on-one nature of Bishop Wester's work, including the times he has washed the dishes and tidied up the houses of sick and elderly parishioners.
      "We chose him because of that roll-up-the-sleeves genuineness, and implied in that is humility," Wise said. "Salt Lake is fortunate to have him."

[Salvation]

For your information

[Salvation]

Catholic Discussion Ping!

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[Salvation]

Any opinions of Bishop Wester?

[Salvation]

**"More of a missionary diocese," as Bishop Wester noted in an interview Monday evening after a day that included Mass, a press conference and a tour of his new city.**

Catholics are very much the minority in Utah.

I know my husband attended a high school in Salt Lake City -- he said he knew what it was like to be a minority.

[Salvation]

** What impressed the organization, Wise said, was the one-on-one nature of Bishop Wester's work, including the times he has washed the dishes and tidied up the houses of sick and elderly parishioners.**

This sounds like a REAL shepherd.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

Someone on a blog entry I read said he was very supportive of the right-to-life movement in SF area...and always participated in RTL marches.

[Macoraba]

Will he allow the TLM?

[Coleus]

no, i never heard of the priest.

Maybe someone on the northern california ping list knows something about him.

He's for a "living" wage.
http://www.hoover.org/publications/uk/3391081.html

aganist the death penalty
http://www.santarosacatholic.org/news/releases/tookie.html

celebrates mass for feast of st. josemaria
http://www.opusdei.us/art.php?p=17234

[Salvation]

Sounds good. Actually, sounds wonderful!

[trisham]

He looks pretty good for 56?

[Knitting A Conundrum]

All Catholics who hire people should, as far as within their means, pay a living wage.

From New Advent: It may be summarized in these words of Pope Leo XIII in the famous Encyclical "Rerum Novarum" (15 May, 1891), on the condition of the working classes: "there is a dictate of nature more ancient and more imperious than any bargain between man and man, that the remuneration must be sufficient to support the wage-earner in reasonable and frugal comfort. If through necessity or fear of a worse evil the workman accepts harder conditions, because an employer or contractor will give him no better, he is the victim of fraud and injustice."

As a pastor, it is a good thing for him to teach - because encouraging employers to be moral is not a bad or wrong thing. Where he was at he was having to deal with people who were working and homeless because the wages were lower than what the cost of living was.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04185a.htm

That is perfectly within good Catholic teaching.

I don't know much else about him, but that a person who hangs out over at the Cafeteria is Closed blog wished that he would have been chosen to replace Levada.

I wish him well.

[Andyman]

As a Catholic in Utah I can tell you that the Catholic community here is vital. Being a minority in some ways makes us bond closer. It is easy being Catholic in Utah, if you are strong in your faith.

When I was without faith our neighbors sent missionaries over a lot. Now that I am strong in my faith we hardly ever see them anymore.

We've been without a Bishop for a very long time. I'm very happy to have Bishop Wester to lead the flock here.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

Info from the Salt Lake diocese website:

http://www.utahcatholicdiocese.org/church/bishopsmessage.php

Standing before you today, I am filled with gratitude and awe at the prospect of my new ministry here in the Diocese of Salt Lake City, a diocese that encompasses the whole of this magnificent state of Utah. I thank God for the providential and loving grace that has beckoned me here and I pray that this same loving and gracious God will guide me as I become a servant leader in your midst as well as a fellow pilgrim of faith. I am profoundly grateful to our Holy Father for his trust in me and I am hopeful that I will be able to follow his example of selfless devotion to our Church. I also wish to express my growing gratitude to Monsignor Terry Fitzgerald for all he has done to welcome me, making my beginning here as pleasant and smooth as possible. And I am particularly grateful for the warm welcome you have given me today. As I prepare to begin my ministry of service in your midst, I look forward to forging friendships with you and all our sisters and brothers in Christ in the years ahead.

There can be no mistake about it: I am definitely the “new kid on the block!” I have a lot to learn and I therefore must be an attentive listener to you, the priests and deacons, religious and faithful of the Diocese of Salt Lake City. As your bishop, my first obligation is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ “in season and out of season.” I can only do this effectively if I know you well and have a firm grasp of your priorities, concerns, dreams and plans. In a particular way, I wish to learn from our priests, my most important collaborators in my ministry as your bishop. With them, I hope to continue the excellent work of Archbishop Niederauer in promoting beautiful liturgies, sound faith education programs, loving and compassionate service to the poor, prudent stewardship of our resources, and parishes that flourish throughout the diocese.

So many ethnic groups make up the rich tapestry of this local Church. I look forward, therefore, to listening to and learning from people from all over the world who have made Utah their home. Utah is growing in leaps and bounds and our Church is the better for it as we welcome the stranger among us and grow ever richer as a multicultural church.

Me alegra que en la diócesis haya muchas personas que hablen español. He estado tratando de perfeccionar este bello idioma y espero que los hispanos de nuestra comunidad me ayuden a mejorarlo. De cualquier manera, sé que ustedes son muy pacientes y me apoyarán con sus oraciones del mismo modo como me inspiran con su fe vibrante. Tan solo el mes pasado, tuvimos una peregrinación de 12 millas en honor a nuestra Señora de Guadalupe. Veo mi transferencia a Salt Lake City como una extensión de ese peregrinaje de fe en el cual soy guiado por el ejemplo de María y su intercesión por nosotros, sus queridos hijos.

(I am pleased that there are so many who speak Spanish in the diocese. I have been trying to master this beautiful language and I hope the Spanish speakers in our midst will be willing to tutor me in this regard! In any case, I have learned that you are very patient and I know you will support me with your prayers as you inspire me with your vibrant faith. Just last month we had a 12 mile pilgrimage in honor of our Lady of Guadalupe. I see my transfer to Salt Lake City as an extension of that pilgrimage of faith in which I am guided by Mary’s example and her intercession for us, her dear children.)

A wonderful relationship exists between this local Church and the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I was deeply impressed by the fact that many leaders of the church attended Archbishop Niederauer’s installation in San Francisco last February and I look forward to building on the strong ties that the Archbishop and former bishops, as well as the catholic community, have developed over the years with our brothers and sisters. Indeed, I understand that there is a wonderful ecumenical and interfaith spirit in this diocese and I am eager to add to this dialogue even as I benefit from it.

As a fourth generation San Franciscan, I have deep roots in the city of Saint Francis and will always cherish my wonderful family, priest brothers and many friends in the City by the Bay. At the same time, I am proud of the many connections between San Francisco and Salt Lake City. Archbishop Alemany, the first bishop of San Francisco, was intimately involved with the affairs of this local Church in the mid to late 1800’s. And of course, Archbishop Niederauer was the eighth bishop here. And now I am privileged to become your ninth bishop as I embrace a new home, setting down roots in this City by the Lake. I am keenly conscious of the rich legacy that has been handed down through the preceding generations. In particular, these last twelve months have given me a glimpse into just how difficult it was for you to say goodbye to such a wonderful human being and bishop as George Niederauer. He is certainly an exemplary man of the Church and I wish to thank him today for his friendship and encouragement this past year, anticipating that I will be even more grateful to him in the years ahead as I benefit from his sound leadership in Salt Lake City for over eleven years.

His Excellency, Archbishop Pietro Sambi, the Apostolic Nuncio of our Holy Father in the United States, reminded me that on the shores of another large body of water, some 2000 years ago, Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, called his first disciples. I cannot begin to explain the joy, excitement, and yes, even the trepidation that I now feel as I seek to follow this call of the Lord here in Utah, on the shores of the Great Salt Lake. I give thanks to our loving God for the Providence that has placed me on this path, in the direction of this great state, and I ask for your prayers as I prepare to take up my new ministry, dedicating myself to you as I begin a new chapter in my life.

In 1851, John Soule, an Indiana newspaperman, gave some sage advice that Horace Greeley made popular: “Go West, young man.” Well, this is not 1851, I’m not so sure how young I am anymore and I’m moving East, although only about 750 miles! You and I are beginning an exciting journey of faith together. I ask Saint Mary Magdalene to intercede on our behalf that we will receive God’s abundant blessings on this exciting pilgrimage. I am especially pleased that today we celebrate the Baptism of the Lord. This feast day marks the beginning of Christ’s public ministry in which He revealed the love and compassion of God. I pray that this same Christ will raise his arms of benediction over us all, just as the Father blessed Him with the power of the Holy Spirit, and that God’s love and compassion will guide our steps on the journey ahead.

INTRODUCTION BY MSGR. J. TERRENCE FITZGERALD, DIOCESAN ADMINISTRATOR OF THE DIOCESE OF SALT LAKE CITY
Dear Friends,

Today, as we begin the New Year, our hearts are filled with gratitude, as our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, has named The Most Reverend John C. Wester as the ninth bishop of the Diocese of Salt Lake City. Bishop Wester, like our first bishop, Lawrence Scanlan, comes to us from the Archdiocese of San Francisco, where he has served in numerous pastoral positions. At present, he is the Auxiliary Bishop and Vicar General in the archdiocese.

Bishop Wester will be installed during a Mass in The Cathedral of the Madeleine on Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 1:30 PM.

The bishop was bom November 5,1950, in San Francisco, California, and ordained a priest for the archdiocese on May 15, 1976. He was ordained bishop September 18, 1998.

Bishop Wester has vast experience in both the pastoral and administrative ministries of the Church. He has served in Catholic education, has been a pastor, vicar general and vicar for clergy, as well as the administrator of the Archdiocese of San Francisco. I am sure that Bishop Wester will be a good shepherd for us, following in the footsteps of the great bishops who have gone before him.

Before presenting Bishop Wester, I wish to express my gratitude to the diocesan consultors, the Pastoral Center staff, the clergy, religious and laity of the diocese, who are so very kind, faithful and supportive, especially during this time of transition.

Bishop Wester, we welcome you with the warm embrace of traditional Utah hospitality and pledge to you our loyal support. Your new diocese is expansive in territory and vibrant in the faith life of its people. The growing Catholic population, especially our Hispanics, brings hope and challenge for the future.

It is my privilege to present the ninth bishop of the Diocese of Salt Lake City, The Most Reverend John C. Wester.

[Alex Murphy]

Any opinions of Bishop Wester?

"A wonderful relationship exists between this local Church and the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I was deeply impressed by the fact that many leaders of the church attended Archbishop Niederauer’s installation in San Francisco last February and I look forward to building on the strong ties that the Archbishop and former bishops, as well as the catholic community, have developed over the years with our brothers and sisters. Indeed, I understand that there is a wonderful ecumenical and interfaith spirit in this diocese and I am eager to add to this dialogue even as I benefit from it.

While I understand the desire not to insult the majority among the locals, FWIW I wasn't impressed.

[Salvation]

Thanks, KAC!

[dsc]

" Indeed, I understand that there is a wonderful ecumenical and interfaith spirit"

Red flag.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

All naysayers need to give the guy a chance. YOU CANNOT BE EFFECTIVE in Utah coming in and saying "Up yours, Mormons, you're going to hell!"


The Mormons already believe the Catholic church is the Antichrist.

You think Pope Benedict was going to pick someone who was going to create a crisis in the church and make it totally ineffective and unable to work in an environment like that? This diocese requires a person with gracious diplomatic skills, who knows how to guide a church that is a minority in an area where the church is looked on with suspicious eyes.

If he is guilty as charged, it will come out...but at this point it is truly unChristian be practicing calumny on a man we know not much about.

[G Larry]

Utah's got Catholics?

Who knew?

[Logophile]

You emphasized the following sentence from the statement by Bishop Wester:

I look forward to building on the strong ties that the Archbishop and former bishops, as well as the catholic community, have developed over the years with our brothers and sisters.

Then you commented:

While I understand the desire not to insult the majority among the locals, FWIW I wasn't impressed.

Your comment puzzles me. Do you believe that Bishop Wester should not look forward to building and maintaining strong ties with the LDS Church? Or do you believe he is wrong to refer to Mormons as "brothers and sisters"?

[Logophile]

All naysayers need to give the guy a chance. YOU CANNOT BE EFFECTIVE in Utah coming in and saying "Up yours, Mormons, you're going to hell!"

I daresay that such an approach would not be very effective with anybody.

The Mormons already believe the Catholic church is the Antichrist.

No, the Antichrist is someone else.

Seriously, I think Mormons generally get along quite well with Catholics. At least I do. (My wife's family is largely Catholic; her cousin is a priest here in town.)

. . . This diocese requires a person with gracious diplomatic skills, who knows how to guide a church that is a minority in an area where the church is looked on with suspicious eyes.

If he is guilty as charged, it will come out...but at this point it is truly unChristian be practicing calumny on a man we know not much about.

More common sense.

[Titanites]

Utah's got Catholics?

I believe they've now spread to every state in the Union.

[Alex Murphy]

Do you believe that Bishop Wester should not look forward to building and maintaining strong ties with the LDS Church? Or do you believe he is wrong to refer to Mormons as "brothers and sisters"?

The latter.

[Alex Murphy]

I believe they've now spread to every state in the Union.

...despite efforts by the CDC, incl. aerial spraying :)

[ArrogantBustard]

We're going to take over the world.

And there's NOTHING you can do to stop it.


MMMMMUUUUUUWWWWWAAAAAAAAHHHHAAAAHHAAAAAHAhhahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

[Titanites]

incl. aerial spraying

Some conspiracy theorists suspect that's how all the states were contaminated with them.

[Alex Murphy]

We're going to take over the world. And there's NOTHING you can do to stop it.

"In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
- John 16:33

[ichabod1]

We've alreadly got the supreme court.

[Logophile]

The latter.

That is disappointing. I expected better of you.

At any rate, I am with Bishop Wester on this one. All men and women are my brothers and sisters, whether they share my faith or not. As a Christian, I am commanded to love God and my neighbor. (For that matter, I am commanded to love my enemies as well.)

I wish Bishop Wester well, and hope that he and his flock prosper.

[sitetest]

Dear Alex Murphy,

I understand your concern, but at least from a Catholic perspective, the bishop has spoken properly.

Catholics believe that we are all the children of Adam, and in that sense, brothers and sisters, and children of God as Creator.

However, as the Catholic Church doesn't recognize LDS baptism as valid, we would not recognize members of the LDS as our brothers and sisters in Christ.


sitetest

[Alex Murphy]

That is disappointing. I expected better of you.

See sitetest's post #30, which echoes my own thinking on the matter (nice job BTW, sitetest). I would have hoped the new bishop would be more precise in his use of brothers and sisters (as sitetest was).

Still disappointed?

[dsc]

"but at this point it is truly unChristian be practicing calumny on a man we know not much about."

I wish my memory was better. It seems like you've laid sanctimonious preaching on me a number of times before, but I just can't trust my memory.

Be that as it may, your comment is not only sanctimonious, it is completely unjustified and wrong-headed.

I said that the new bishop's comment on the "wonderful" nature of ecuminism is "a red flag." That is calumny only in the fever-dreams of theological-leftist whackos--which happens to include ever priest in my diocese, together with the bishop.

You choose the dishonest tactic of presenting the most extreme position (saying "Up yours, Mormons, you're going to hell!") as a position I would endorse.

Any low-grade moron could tell you that there is a lot of room between that extreme on the one hand, and the apostasy of extreme ecuminism on the other.

Do I sound angry? Well, as St. John Chrysostom wrote, "He who is not angry, whereas he has cause to be, sins. For unreasonable patience is the hotbed of many vices, it fosters negligence, and incites not only the wicked but even the good to do wrong."

The cause for anger here is people like you who swan about like plaster saints suffering from Montezuma's revenge every time someone worries about a sign of further apostasy among the Catholic clergy.

At this point in history, sensitivity to red flags and distrust are the reasonable default positions. It is only rational to be alert to Clintonoid parsing in their every word, unless and until a priest establishes himself as one of the few remaining faithful clergy.

And what we don't need, every time somebody says, "Whoops, that sounds iffy. Better keep an eye on that," is some half-baked, self-rightous sheeple calling us unChristian for caring about the Church.

You couldn't imagine how much I deleted from this note to try and keep it civil.

[Logophile]

Still disappointed?

Not anymore, thanks.

[sitetest]

Dear Alex Murphy,

Thanks.

"I would have hoped the new bishop would be more precise in his use of brothers and sisters."

The difficulty is that this sort of address isn't one in which the finer points of doctrine are easily made.

If the bishop had launched into a "well, we believe their brothers and sisters, but not brothers and sisters in Christ," he'd have created quite a hullaballoo, and would have spent the next year explaining the theology, and even THEN lots of folks would just be obtuse about it, and say that the bishop was both self-contradictory AND insulting.

Ordinarily, I prefer more precision, myself. I wasn't called the "little Jesuit" without reason.

But on this occasion, I understand why the bishop wasn't more precise.

I give him a pass this time.


sitetest

[caseinpoint]

You don't like the idea that ecumenism was the word of choice of the new bishop. Don't worry, though. I doubt the term was used in the common sense of combining religions into a new one. Mormons would no sooner compromise their worship and principles than Catholics.

I think what he meant by ecumenism in this case was the forums the Mormons have offered to different religious leaders at their buildings for lectures on their faith. And the joint efforts of the two strong churches against common evil such as abortion, gay marriage and others.

Catholics and Mormons have a lot in common in the sense of honoring their beliefs and roots and refusing to compromise in the face of public pressure to do so. From that springs a respect of the other. And from respect springs a willingness to engage common enemies as temporary allies.

Furthermore, Mormons do not consider the Catholic baptism valid, either, but they do consider all people their brothers and sisters under the Fatherhood of the Lord and the Brotherhood of the Savior. Whether a brother or sister is saved is another matter under Mormon theology.

I'm sure the new Bishop will forge quite appropriate relationships with the Mormon Church that will not in any way dilute his church and faith.

[dsc]

Thank you for your reply. It was quite civil and thoughtful, but I must still take extreme exception to any attempt to characterize one of my positions as something I like or don't like.

That characterization is commonly used by leftists to discredit an argument, which allows them to avoid having to examine it on its merits.

I have with great sorrow learned over the past few years that theological leftism is as toxic as economic and social leftism. This should have been obvious to me, as all flow from the same contaminated spring. However, I am often slow to perceive such things, and it was rather a shock to learn that leftist priests are leftists first and priests only insofar as it serves the leftist agenda.

Among such priests, whom Pope Saint Pius X characterized as "enemies of the Church," ecumenism is used as an excuse to attack the Catholic faith by justifying compromises.

The use of the word, therefore, is like one of James Fenimore Cooper's twigs snapping under a moccasined foot. The sound of the twig might be nothing, but those wise in the ways of the wilderness will nonetheless prick up their ears at the sound.

I agree that "Catholics and Mormons have a lot in common in the sense of honoring their beliefs and roots and refusing to compromise in the face of public pressure to do so." I respect Mormons for that, and wish Catholics were more deserving of your compliment.

"I'm sure the new Bishop will forge quite appropriate relationships with the Mormon Church that will not in any way dilute his church and faith."

I'm not raising any question of relationships with the Mormon Church in particular diluting the bishop's faith. I'm saying that his enthusiasm for ecuminism raises the question of whether or not he has any faith to begin with, because those Catholics who have been most enthusiastic about ecuminism have not.

[dsc]

And I misspelled "ecumenism" twice in a row.

[colorcountry]

And all this time Logophile, I thought you were a Mormon.

How appropriate that you would hide and obscure that fact.

[caseinpoint]

I agree with you that use of the word ecumenism was either too casual or a hint of his attitudes towards other religions. You can keep a sharp eye on him but, if anything, I would think Utah will sharpen his fealty to classic Catholicism rather than loosen it because so much of the population takes religion very seriously.

[Logophile]

And all this time Logophile, I thought you were a Mormon. How appropriate that you would hide and obscure that fact.

I am not aware of ever having done so. Nor do I see why that would be considered appropriate.

For the record, I am a member in good standing of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly called the "Mormon" church. I have never pretended otherwise. My apologies to all if I have written anything that gave the wrong impression about my church affiliation.

[dsc]

"if anything, I would think Utah will sharpen his fealty to classic Catholicism rather than loosen it because so much of the population takes religion very seriously."

I wish I could be optimistic about that. However, it all depends on whether he is a theological leftist or not.

We've all noted that leftism is analogous in many ways to mental disorder, and especially in that you cannot reason with a leftist. It usually takes some sort of ephiphany to turn a leftist around. If this bishop is already a leftist, absent such an epiphany, he'll just keep getting worse. If he's not, thank God.

[caseinpoint]

Amen.

[Coleus]

thanks for the info.

[nina0113]

>>Utah's got Catholics?

Who knew?<<

These were some of my brother's (and my) favorites:

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Brain-John-D-Fitzgerald/dp/0142400580/sr=8-1/qid=1168625973/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2342083-1936105?ie=UTF8&s=books

Catholic boys in late 19th century Utah. Go to the library & get them this weekend.