Setting the Record Straight on Mary

Catholic Exchange ^ | December 17, 2006 | Fr. Thomas Euteneuer

[NYer]

The new movie that debuted on December 1st, The Nativity Story, has received many positive reviews around the country already and also a fair number of attacks by the standard group of village atheists.

Criticisms notwithstanding, the movie certainly has many redeeming qualities to it including its portrayal of Joseph and the touching scene of Mary's visit to Elizabeth, but at the same time I feel it necessary to correct the record about its presentation of Mary. More to the point, twenty centuries of theological reflection on the Virgin Mary have been effectively glossed over in the movie, and we have been given someone's private interpretation of Mary's role in salvation history which does not match the public record of historical Christianity. The Catholic Church has made it clear from the beginning that we do not understand Jesus as a historical and theological figure without Mary, and so a Nativity story that gets Mary wrong also skews our understanding of Jesus.

First and foremost, any portrayal of Mary as giving birth in pain is simply contrary to the Christian Church's long tradition of Mary as virginal before, during and after birth. In this view, her intact physical integrity during birth was accompanied by a psychic integrity that admitted of no pains during childbirth in any form. That may be a surprise to some, but it is nonetheless the historical Christian view of this event. The movie's portrayal of her childbirth is thus not the Church's mainstream understanding and qualifies as a strictly private interpretation of the event. In fact, the movie had a chance to contrast the painful childbirth of John the Baptist to Elizabeth with the miraculous birth of Jesus to Mary, and it missed the perfect opportunity to provoke a good theological debate!

Biblical Christians should know that there is a Scriptural reason for this doctrine. The virtually unanimous opinion of the Fathers of the Church in the first six centuries was that Mary is the "New Eve," the necessary counterpart to Christ, the New Adam (cf. Rom 5:12-14). Just as the old Eve collaborated in the sin of Adam, so the New Eve, with the New Adam, reverses the original disobedience and undoes the curse brought upon the human race by the first sinners. That same curse also brought about the grim consequence of labor pains for all of Eve's daughters (cf. Gn 3:16), but the New Eve who broke the curse was not subject to its dictates.

Secondly, Mary was not an immature adolescent as she is portrayed in the movie. The director of the movie, Catherine Hardwicke, intended to portray her as such in order to make her more "real" to teens. That is fine as an evangelistic motive, but depicting her in a quasi-feminist tizzy against her father's authority when he addresses the delicate subject of pre-marital relations is simply inaccurate to the historical record and doesn't help kids to take her as a role model.

The immaculate Mary's passions were first and foremost totally consecrated to the Lord and without the slightest disorder in any sense; she is not your typical teen in western society. She is the teen Mother of the Messiah, the perfect role model for all kids and adults alike. Not only would it not have entered the mind of the all-pure Mary to have pre-marital relations, she could not have had a fit of rebellion against her father's legitimate authority that concretized God's will for her. This presentation of Mary is quintessentially Hollywood and reflects neither historical Christianity nor even the biblical evidence. It is also a reflection of the Protestant view that Mary is just another person who happened to follow Jesus.

No, Mary is the Mother of God, perfectly pure in every respect and, even as a teenager dedicated heart, mind, soul and strength to God's plan of salvation. "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me as you say" (Lk 1:38).  Let the historical record speak for itself.

[NYer]

That Mary suffered no labor pains, is a well preserved tradition from the East, affirmed by St. Ephrem. While singing the Arsal Allah ( an ancient Syriac hymn) at Novena last night, I couldn’t help but reflect on this particular verse:

This shining star the virgin lamp brings from her womb
When He arose preserved the seal upon His tomb
She labored not in bearing Him but felt delight
Though born upon the midnight hour, He made it bright.

Ha-lel, Ha-lel, Ha-le-lou-noh

---

Because of his loving comprehension of the mystery of the Incarnation, St. Ephrem (born 306AD), was prompt in recognizing the unique honor which pertains to Mary as the Mother of God. With great tenderness and delicacy he dramatized, in dialogues which foreshadow the mystery plays of the middle ages, the beautiful role played by Our Lady in the joyous events at Bethlehem and later at the foot of the Cross on Calvary. Observe with what gracious humility, in one of these dramas, Mary addresses the Magi who have come from the East to adore the Son of God: "My son has no armies," she says, "not legions, nor cohorts. He lies there in his mother's poverty, and you call him King!" To which the Magi reply, with a magnificent profession of faith, "The armies of your son are on high. His knights move about the heavens as stars of fire."

In view of St. Ephrem's surpassing devotion to the Blessed Virgin, it is not surprising that he should have affirmed more explicitly than any of the other Christian Fathers, including St. Ambrose and St. Augustine, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. "Thou alone, O Lord," he declares, "and Thy mother are they who in every respect are wholly beautiful; for there is no spot in Thee, O Lord, nor any stain in Thy mother." Mary, then, is an exception to the universal rule whereby all the children of Eve are conceived in the state of original sin. In this respect she is the only woman who can be compared to Eve, the mother of all mankind according to the flesh, as constituted in the state of original innocence: "Two women were pure and two simple: Mary and Eve; they stood on a level. But one was the cause of our death, the other of our life." In consequence of her exemption from the effects of original sin Mary was, as St. Ephrem affirms in another passage, spared from the pains of labor in bearing the Christ-child. In his appreciation of the place of Mary in the economy of our salvation, St. Ephrem represents the tradition of the early Syrian churches — a tradition which did not come into its own until the definition in l854 of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

[Biggirl]

Had read it early this morning in the original posting. An excellent read, with a good deal of responses. I only do hope that this thread does not see the arguments happening that had happened in other Mary-related threads in the last few weeks. It is good to present an Eastern Christian perspective.

[rawcatslyentist]

"Biblical Christians should know that there is a Scriptural reason for this doctrine. The virtually unanimous opinion~

Opinion, even though virtually unanimous, is not exactly whut I'd consider Scriptural.

[Salvation]

Thanks, NYer.

[trisham]

Secondly, Mary was not an immature adolescent as she is portrayed in the movie. The director of the movie, Catherine Hardwicke, intended to portray her as such in order to make her more "real" to teens. That is fine as an evangelistic motive, but depicting her in a quasi-feminist tizzy against her father's authority when he addresses the delicate subject of pre-marital relations is simply inaccurate to the historical record and doesn't help kids to take her as a role model.

************

I'm not sure I agree with the author. Portraying Mary in a "quasi-feminist tizzy" who challenges her father's authority would probably be attractive to many kids. One question is, apart from the issue of accuracy, does this create a suitable role model? For me, the answer is "no".

[mockingbyrd]

Hey there ROE, is this the article you were talking about?Sorry I haven't gotten back to you, but this is the only one I could find by the good father. My internet has been of the fritz recently, really bad weather the last few days. And the girls are just climbing the walls. It's too cold to go outside, and there are Christmas presents to climb on, ornaments to remove from the tree and nativity scenes to turn into nativity huddles/dogpiles.

It's the most wonderful time of the year!

[Quix]

imho . . . NOT setting the record at all straight or accurately.

But we've all been over those issues many dozens of times.

But the historical record even in Scripture is different than the above.

[Suzy Quzy]

I saw the movie at a Michael Medved function.....like it, didn't love it. Didn't like the way Mary was portrayed before the Visitation, and HATED the way Anne was portrayed.....what is Mary's father's name??/ he was also portrayed as mean!!

I thought the best line of the movie was Joseph saying "I wonder if I can teach him anything".

[Blogger]

Rots of Ruck.

[Rutles4Ever]

It's amazing how many people will believe the greater miracle (the Incarnation), but ridicule the lesser miracle (Mary did not suffer in labor).

At any rate, here we go again.

[Nihil Obstat]

Silent night, Holy night
All is calm, all is bright
'Round yon virgin Mother and Child
Holy infant so tender and mild
Sleep in heavenly peace
Sleep in heavenly peace

Silent night, holy night
Shepherds quake at the sight
Glories stream from Heaven afar
Heav'nly hosts sing Alleluia
Christ the Saviour is born
Christ the Saviour is born

Silent night, holy night
Son of God, love's pure light
Radiant beams from Thy holy face
With the dawn of redeeming grace
Jesus, Lord at Thy birth
Jesus, Lord at Thy birth

[Frank Sheed]

One-This says essentially what I had always thought the Church believed. One conceived without original sin would have no reason to have birth pains. Her "pains"--a sword piercing her heart--came later when she suffered the "Seven Dolors" as a result of the suffering she shared with her Son.

Two--NYer and all, prepare for incoming!

[Frank Sheed]

Agree and an apt observation I must say.

[Pyro7480]

Catholic ping!

[Pyro7480]

Catholic ping!

[Pyro7480]

Two--NYer and all, prepare for incoming!

The rage against these Marian threads recently is practically demonic.

[Salvation]

what is Mary's father's name??

Joachim

[nanetteclaret]

No surprise there.

[Salvation]

I saw this yesterday, but didn't post it because I knew I could not follow it. I have family here from Spokane and Chicago.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

Remember to "Keep Christ in Christmas." (That is the message on our reader board at church!

Carry on! God bless all of you.

[nanetteclaret]

Merry Christmas, Salvation! Thanks for all you do here at FR. You are a blessing to us.

[xzins]

It is also a reflection of the Protestant view that Mary is just another person who happened to follow Jesus.

In short, that's a pretty lousy take on the protestant view.

We believe as the bible says that "Mary is the Mother of Jesus the Christ."

We think anyone associated with the Christ is worthy of special attention. They were blessed and graced to be in His presence. The LORD showed great grace to them by allowing them to participate in the life Christ.

The real difference between Protestants and Roman Catholics is that we study and learn from their lives; we don't pray to them or venerate/reverence/worship them.

[Frank Sheed]

Learn from a Jewish perspective then. Jesus was, in fact, a Jew and followed Jewish law.

Sorry for the length. I KNOW you hate dissertations...

PERPETUAL VIRGINITY OF MARY

by Br. Anthony Opisso, M.D.

From the earliest biblical days adultery carried with it a sense of defilement, so that a woman who had know contact with another man, even if by force, was considered no longer fit to be visited by her husband (Genesis 49:4; 2 Samuel 20:3, re ibid. 16:21-22; Book of Jubilees 33:6-9; Epstein, Marriage Laws in the Biblical Talmud, p.51).

The deuteronomic code teaches that a woman who is divorced by her husband and thereafter marries another man likewise cannot return to her former husband (Dt 24:1-4). As the Lord said through the prophet Jeremiah: "If a man put away his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, shall he return to her again, shall not the land (his wife's body) be greatly polluted?" (Jr 3:1; see Targum to Dt 24:1-4).

In rabbinic law a woman who has committed adultery is "defiled" and cannot remain the wife of her husband, but must be divorced (Sifre on Dt, edit. M. Friedman (1864) 270 p. 122b; Sifre on Numbers, edit. M. Friedman (1915) 7 p. 4a and 19 p. 66). Furthermore any intimate male contact by the wife with Jew or gentile, potent or impotent, natural or unnatural makes divorce compulsory (Sotha 26b; Yebamoth 55a, b, 87b; Kethuboth 9a, Babylonian Talmud; Kethuboth 25a; Sotah 27a, Yad, Sotah 2,2, Jerusalem Talmud).

Betrothed

In Jewish Law a man betrothed to a woman was considered legally married to her. The word for betrothed in Hebrew is Kiddush, a word that is derived from the Hebrew word Kadash which means "holy" "consecrated," "set apart." Because by betrothal (as in Mt 1:18; Lk 1:27) , or marriage, a woman became the peculiar property of her husband, forbidden to others.

The Oral Law of Kiddushin (Marriages and Engagements) states; "The husband prohibits his wife to the whole world like an object which is dedicated to the Sanctuary" (Kiddushin 2b, Babylonian Talmud).

We know from the Gospel of Matthew 1:14 that Joseph the husband of Mary was a righteous man, a devout law-abiding Jew. Having noticed that Mary was pregnant and that he, her betrothed, had nothing to do with the pregnancy, Joseph had either to publicly condemn her and have her put to death for adultery (Dt 22:22-29) or put her away privately.

His decision was made when an angel appeared to him in a dream, saying: "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife; for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins" (Mt. 1:20-21). The angel does not use the phrase for marital union: "go in unto" (as in Gn 30:3, 4, 16) or "come together" (Mt 1:18) but merely a word meaning leading her into the house as a wife (paralambano gunaika) but not cohabiting with her.

For when the angel revealed to him that Mary was truly the spouse of the Holy Spirit, Joseph could take Mary, his betrothed, into his house as a wife, but he could never have intercourse with her because according to the Law she was forbidden to him for all time.

Marriage to the Holy Spirit

We also have to take into consideration that when Mary was told by the archangel Gabriel "Behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus" (Lk 1:31), he also added that this was to come about because "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the Holy one to be born shall be called the Son of God" (Lk 1:35).

By stating it in those terms the archangel declared to Mary that God would enter into a marital relationship with her, causing her to conceive His Son in her womb, For "to lay one's power (reshuth) over a woman" (Targum to Dt 21:4) was a euphemism for "to have a marital relationship with her."

Likewise "to overshadow" (Lk 1:35) by spreading the "wing" or "cloak" over a woman was another euphemism for marital relations. Thus, the rabbis commented (Midrash Genesis Rabbah 39.7; Midrash Ruth Rabbah 3.9) that Ruth was chaste in her wording when she asked Boaz to have marital relations with her by saying to him "I am Ruth you handmaid, spread therefore your cloak ( literally, "wing": kanaph) over your handmaid for you are my next-of-kin" (Ruth 3:9).

Tallith, another Aramaic-Hebrew word for cloak, is derived from tellal = shadow. Thus, "to spread one's cloak (tallith) over a woman" means to cohabit with her (Kiddushin 18b, see also Mekhilta on Exodus 21:8). Did not the Lord say to His bride Israel: "I am married to you" (Jr 3:14) and "your Maker is your husband"? (Is 54-5:5; Jr 31:32)? And what is more intimate than what the Lord said to His bride: "You developed, you grew, you came to full womanhood; your breasts became firm and your hair grew... you were naked... and I saw that you were now old enough for love so I spread my cloak over you... I gave you My oath, I entered into a covenant with you and you became Mine, says the Lord God" (Ezk 16:7, 8).

Mary prohibited to Joseph

Having been enlightened by an angel in a dream regarding her pregnancy, and perhaps further by Mary concerning the words of the archangel Gabriel to her at the Annunciation, Joseph knew that God had conducted himself as a husband in regard to Mary. She was now prohibited to him for all time, and for the sake of the Child and Mary he could only live with her in an absolutely chaste relationship.

Living a celibate life within marriage was not unknown in Jewish tradition. It was told that Moses, who was married, remained continent the rest of his life after the command to abstain from sexual intercourse (Ex 19:15) given in preparation the seventy elders abstained thereafter from their wives after their call, and so did Eldad and Medad when the spirit of prophecy came upon them; indeed it was said that the prophets became celibate after the Word of the Lord communicated with them (Midrash Exodus Rabbah 19; 46.3; Sifre to Numbers 99 sect. 11; Sifre Zutta 81-82, 203-204; Aboth Rabbi Nathan 9, 39; Tanchuman 111, 46; Tanchumah Zaw 13; 3 Petirot Moshe 72; Shabbath 87a; Pesachim 87b, Babylonian Talmud).

Celibacy according to tradition

Elijah and Elisha were celibate al their lives (Zohar Hadash 2:1; Midrash Mishlei 30, 105, Pirke Rabbi Eliezer 33). When for the sake of the Torah (i.e., intense study in it), a rabbi would abstain from relations with his wife, it was deemed permissible, for he was then cohabiting with the Shekinah (the "Divine Presence") in the Torah (Zohar re Gn 1:27; 13:3 and Psalm 85:14 in the Discourse of Rabbi Phineas to Rabbis Jose, Judah, and Hiya).

It is well known that the rabbis spoke concerning the obligation of all males to be married and procreated: "He who abstains from procreation is regarded as though he had shed blood" (Rabbi Eliezer in Yebamoth 63b, Babylonian Talmud; see also Shulkhan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) section Evenhar-Ezer 1:1,3,4). According to Yebamoth 62b, B.T. a man is only half a man without a wife, citing Genesis 5:2 where it is said: "Male and female He (God) created them and blessed them, and called their name Adam (lit. "Man").

Nevertheless, "if a person cleaves to the study of the Torah (i.e., dedicates all his time to it) like Simeon ben Azzai, his refusal to marry can be condoned" (Skulkhan Arukh EH 1:4). Rabbinic scholar Simeon ben Azzai (early second century A.D.) was extraordinary in his learning: "with the passing of Ben Azzai diligent scholars passed from the earth" (Sotah 9:15). He never married and was celibate all his life so as not to be distracted from his studies, and because he considered the Torah his wife, for who he always yearned with all his soul (Yebamoth 63b). He was an outstanding scholar (Kiddushin 20a, B.T.) and also renowned for his saintliness (Berakoth 57b, B.T.).

Other celibates

Jewish tradition also mentions the celibate Zenu'im (lit. "chaste ones") to whom the secret of the Name of God was entrusted, for they were able to preserve the Holy Name in "perfect purity" (Kiddushin 71a; Midash Ecclesiastes Rabbah 3:11; Yer. yoma 39a, 40a).

Those in hope of a divine revelation consequently refrained from sexual intercourse and were strict in matters of purity (Enoch 83:2; Revelation 14:2-5).

Philo (Apol. pro Judaeis 1X, 14-17), Josephus, (Antiq. XVIII. 21) and Hipploytus (Philosophumena IX, IV, 28a) wrote on the celibacy of the Jewish Essenes hundreds of years before the discovery of their settlements in Qumran by the Dead Sea.

Philo Judaeus (c. 20 B.C.-50 A.D.), a Jewish philosopher, described Jewish women who were virgins who have kept their chastity not under compulsion, like some Greek priestesses, but of their own free will in their ardent yearning for Wisdom. "Eager to have Wisdom for their life-mate, they have spurned the pleasures of the body and desire no mortal offspring but those immortal children which only the soul that is dear to God can bring forth to birth" (Philo, Cont. 68; see also Philo, Abr. 100).

For "the chaste are rewarded by receiving illumination from the concealed heavenly light" (Zohar 11. 229b-230a). Because "if the understanding is safe and unimpaired, free from the oppression of the iniquities or passions... it will gaze clearly on all that is worthy of contemplation" (Philo, Sob. 1.5). Conversely, "the understanding of the pleasure-loving man is blind and unable to see those things that are worth seeing... the sight of which is wonderful to behold and desirable" (Philo, Q. Gen.IV.245).

Joseph as celibate caretaker

As the recipient of the great revelation that what was conceived in the womb of Mary, his betrothed, was of the Holy Spirit and that the Child to be born was destined to save His people from their sins, surely Joseph knew that he was called to take care of Mary and her Child, the Messiah, for the rest of his life, which is why the angel told him to take Mary as his wife.

We may reasonable assume that Mary herself now shared with him all that the archangel Gabriel said to her. No less a Person than "the Son of God" (Lk 1:35) was to be entrusted to his care under the shelter of his humble home, now become the Holy of Holies.

Jewish tradition mentions that, although the people had to abstain from sexual relations with their wives for only three days prior to the revelation at Mount Sinai (Ex 19:15), Moses chose to remain continent the rest of his life with the full approval of God. The rabbis explained that this was so because Moses knew that he was appointed to personally commune with God, not only at Mount Sinai but in general throughout the forty years of sojourning in the wilderness. For this reason Moses kept himself "apart from woman," remaining in the sanctity of separation to be at the beck and call of God at all times; they cited God's command to Moses in Deuteronomy 5:28 (Midrash Exodus Rabbah 19:3 and 46.3).

Again, we may be sure that Saint Joseph remained celibate all his life because throughout his married years he was in daily attendance and communication with Jesus, the incarnate Word of God.

This article was written by Brother Anthony M. Opisso, M.D.

[tiki]

As a Protestant, I would never have even considered this but as a Catholic, it certainly does make Perfect sense. My experience of Mary was a weekly reciting of the Apostle's Creed and Christmas carols and of course, her supernatural role was finished pretty much after giving birth.

[Frank Sheed]

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?RecNum=6811

Nice summary from a former Protestant.

[ichabod1]

What's amazing to me is the number of people that say they believe solely in scripture, but when you ask them about that "you must eat my body and drink my blood or you have no part in me" thing they say "oh, He didn't really mean that."

[DungeonMaster]

The Catholic Church has made it clear from the beginning that we do not understand Jesus as a historical and theological figure without Mary,

Now that is a very strange and very interesting statement.

[Always Right]

The real difference between Protestants and Roman Catholics is that we study and learn from their lives

What I see the biggest difference is the proportion. Mary is a vital character and very worthy of praise, but still is only mentioned about 10 times in the Bible versus thousands of times Jesus is mentioned. The Catholic perspective seems out of balance with the Bible.

[Always Right]

I did not get that statement either.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

One conceived without original sin would have no reason to have birth pains.

And yet Jesus Christ was conceived without sin and he endured tremendous pain.

Once again it seems more credit is being given to a fellow recipient of salvation than to the Savior.

[AnAmericanMother]

The difference is that the pains of childbirth were specifically associated with the "curse of Eve."

BTW, not everybody has them. I didn't, and I'm not particularly holy.

[Jaded]

I'm sure this will be quick.

[xzins]

And what is more intimate than what the Lord said to His bride: "You developed, you grew, you came to full womanhood; your breasts became firm and your hair grew... you were naked... and I saw that you were now old enough for love so I spread my cloak over you... I gave you My oath, I entered into a covenant with you and you became Mine, says the Lord God" (Ezk 16:7, 8).

You buy this?

Sounds to me like it's implying that God had some kind of sex with Mary.

[Frank Sheed]

By your criteria, "it", "the" and "in" must be very sacred as they are mentioned countless times.

[HarleyD]

No, Mary is the Mother of God, perfectly pure in every respect ...

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Luk 1:46-47 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

There is nothing more beautiful than Mary rejoicing in God, HER Saviour.

Let the historical record speak for itself.

It has.

[xzins]

Jesus endured tremendous pain

Good point.

Ignatius makes very clear that Jesus' birth was normal. There is no mention of perpetual virginity, assumption, immaculate conception, and perpetual hymen for the first 300 years of the church.

The method of finding these "teachings" is known as going to history with a preconception and ignoring everything that discounts it....even if your teaching doesn't show up for HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

[Pyro7480]

Catholics do not accept your explanation for "Savior" in the context of Luke 1: 46-47, nor do we accept your application of Romans 3:23 to Mary.

[Pyro7480]

Ignatius makes very clear that Jesus' birth was normal. There is no mention of perpetual virginity, assumption, immaculate conception, and perpetual hymen for the first 300 years of the church.

Perpetual hymen? There is no such term. LOL.

As for the other things you describe above, I'll leave it to the experts who I've pinged above. I have to go to work soon.

[Always Right]

By your criteria, "it", "the" and "in" must be very sacred as they are mentioned countless times.

Except those aren't characters. Jesus is the Savior, Mary is not.

[Frank Sheed]

"We also have to take into consideration that when Mary was told by the archangel Gabriel "Behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus" (Lk 1:31), he also added that this was to come about because "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the Holy one to be born shall be called the Son of God" (Lk 1:35).

By stating it in those terms the archangel declared to Mary that God would enter into a marital relationship with her, causing her to conceive His Son in her womb, For "to lay one's power (reshuth) over a woman" (Targum to Dt 21:4) was a euphemism for "to have a marital relationship with her."

Likewise "to overshadow" (Lk 1:35) by spreading the "wing" or "cloak" over a woman was another euphemism for marital relations. Thus, the rabbis commented (Midrash Genesis Rabbah 39.7; Midrash Ruth Rabbah 3.9) that Ruth was chaste in her wording when she asked Boaz to have marital relations with her by saying to him "I am Ruth you handmaid, spread therefore your cloak ( literally, "wing": kanaph) over your handmaid for you are my next-of-kin" (Ruth 3:9)."

The imagery given from a Jewish and Biblical sense is sexual and spousal. The manner was Miraculous; we don't know how it took place.

It is not called the "Miracle of the Incarnation"--God made flesh--for nothing!

Mary is NOT an incubator or a surrogate mother who had God implanted into her womb. That is heresy and was fought as such for hundreds of years.

[Frank Sheed]

There is nothing more beautiful than Mary rejoicing in God, HER Saviour.

Who said that God is not her Saviour?

[Frank Sheed]

Who said Jesus is not the Saviour? You said she appears sparingly in Scripture (true) and must, of necessity, be unimportant (false).

[Jaded]

No one else is saying that she is. Except you.

[adiaireton8]

Thanks Pyro, but I would just direct xzins to the other ongoing thread where we have already dealt with this issue in great depth.

-A8

[scripter]

We saw The Nativity Story Sunday night with our Bible study group and brought all the kids. Their traveling hardships depicted in the movie seemed accurate considering the times. I thought it was well done. It was great to see the amazement and wonder from the Magi as they laid the gifts down in front of Joseph, Mary and baby Jesus.

[xzins]

perpetual hymen

It's my take on what some of your compadre's were selling on a different thread....that Jesus' birth did not required him to be born in the normal manner, through a woman's birth canal (to include vagina), but he was sort of miraculously extracted so that would not happen.

We could call it the "immaculate hymen" if you like.

[xzins]

You might notice that this thread is about the movie.

[xzins]

So you are suggesting it was sexual....in some esoteric kind of way.

You can't imagine how many of us protestants were accused on that on recent threads.

One of us said something like "touched her seed" and you'd have thought an entire quadrant of the universe had gone up in flames.

[Frank Sheed]

Dave Armstrong on Mary....

II. MARY THE "MOTHER OF GOD" ("THEOTOKOS")

1. Mary is called "Mother of the Lord" (Lk 1:43) and the "Mother of Jesus" (Jn 2:1), thus she is the Mother of God, since Jesus Christ is true God, the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity (see also Is 7:14; Mt 1:18; Lk 1:35; Gal 4:4).

2. Our own mothers did not have any part in the production of our souls, which was the work of God alone. Yet we would not say she was the "mother of my body," and not "my mother." Likewise, Mary, under the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, communicated, as mothers do, to the Lord Jesus Christ a human nature of the same substance as her own. From this unfathomable privilege flows her surpassing dignity and excellence. If Mary were not a truly human mother, then Jesus Christ is not a truly human Person, and both the Incarnation and Jesus Christ's Human Nature would be in peril.

3. The Founders of Protestantism held firmly to this title for Mary, on the same grounds (e.g., Luther, Calvin, Melanchthon, Zwingli, and Bullinger).

III. MARY'S IMMACULATE CONCEPTION

1. Luke 1:28 "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, {thou that art} highly favoured, the Lord {is} with thee: blessed {art} thou among women."

The Gk. word rendered "highly favoured" here (KJV) and in many translations, is "kecharitomene." Catholic Bibles usually translate it "full of grace," which is permissible, and not merely a biased position. E.g., the Protestant Amplified Bible mentions in a note that "endued with grace" is the "literal translation." W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of N.T. Words, a standard Protestant reference, states that the word means "to make graceful or gracious . . . grace implies more than favour; grace is a free gift, favour may be deserved or gained."

If this be true, the Catholic rendering makes more clear the Catholic position that Mary's Immaculate Conception is entirely unmerited on her part, a sheer act of mercy and grace performed solely by God. "Favour" may imply otherwise. "Kecharitomene," in any event, is derived from the root "charis," whose literal meaning is "grace" (it is translated as "grace" 129 out of 150 times in the KJV). The angel is here, in effect, giving Mary a new name ("full of grace"), as if he were addressing Abraham as "full of faith," or Solomon "full of wisdom" (characteristics which typified them). Throughout the Bible, names were indicative of one's character and essence, all the more so if God renamed a person.

2. Catholicism needs only to show the harmony of a doctrine with the Bible. It is not our view that every doctrine of Christianity must appear whole, explicit, and often, in the pages of the Bible. We have also Sacred Tradition, Church Authority, and an acceptance of the development of understanding of essentially unchanging Christian truths. A belief implicitly biblical is not "anti-biblical" or "unbiblical," as many Protestants would have us believe. In fact, many Protestant doctrines are either not found in the Bible at all (e.g., "Bible alone" and the Canon of the Bible), are based on only a very few direct passages (e.g., the Virgin Birth), or are indirectly deduced from many implicit passages (e.g., the Trinity, the two natures of Jesus Christ). Likewise with the Immaculate Conception and other Catholic Marian beliefs.

3. Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

This verse explicitly establishes a link between Mary as bearer of the New Covenant and the Ark of the Old Covenant. The Gk. word for "overshadow" ("episkiasei") was used of the bright cloud at the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ (Mt 17:5; Lk 9:34) and is reminiscent of the Shekinah of the OT, which represented God's Presence (Ex 24:15-16; 40:34-8; 1 Ki 8:4-11). Mary became like the Holy of Holies in the Temple, where God dwelt. God gave extremely detailed instructions on constructing the ark, since it was to contain His Law (Ex 25-30 and 35-40). Mary had to be that much more holy, since she was to carry the Word of God in the flesh (Job 14:4). Further parallelism between Mary and the Ark is indicated in comparing Lk 1:43 with 2 Sam 6:9, Lk 1:44 with 2 Sam 6:14-16, and Lk 1:39-45,56 with 2 Sam 6:10-12.

Mary had to be sinless in order to be in such close proximity to God Himself. The whole Bible teaches this (e.g., Ex 3:5; Deut 23:14). God's Presence imparts and requires holiness (1 Cor 3:13-17; 1 Jn 3:3-9). The Jewish high priest entered the Holy of Holies (where the Ark and God's Special Presence were) only once a year, under threat of death if God's instructions were violated (Lev 16:2-4,13). The Ark itself was so holy that only a few were allowed to touch it (Num 4:15; 2 Sam 6:2-7). Thus, Mary, due to her ineffable physical and spiritual relationship with God the Son, the Holy Spirit (as "Spouse"), and God the Father (as "Daughter of Zion"), necessarily had to be granted the grace of sinlessness from conception, just as we all will be cleansed utterly in order to be present with God in heaven (Rev 21:27). Seen in this light, the Immaculate Conception, though still technically a deduction from the Bible, is a very biblical doctrine indeed.

4. Other biblical parallels to the Immaculate Conception exist. Jeremiah (Jer 1:5) and John the Baptist (Lk 1:15) were sanctified from the womb for the serious tasks to which God was calling them. The Apostles were endowed with many extraordinary gifts for their unique role in the history of Christianity (Acts 2; 2 Cor 3:5-6). Adam and Eve, before the Fall, were immaculate and without sin. They were brought forth from an immaculate earth, just as Jesus came forth from the immaculate Mary. Mary is the "second Eve" just as Jesus was the "second Adam" (Rom 5:14; 1 Cor 15:22,45). Mary, by her profound obedience (Lk 1:38), "undoes" Eve's disobedience in the Garden. The angels were created sinless and have remained so (except for the rebel demons). Saints in heaven are completely holy (Rev 14:5). God saved Mary by preserving her from the "pit" of sin, while He pulls the rest of us out of it. This is why God is every bit as much her Savior as He is ours (LK 1:47).

The Immaculate Mary prefigures the perfected Church (Eph 5:25-27). Catholics venerate in Mary no more than the glory promised by God to every creature who stays the course. The doctrine of Original Sin is more difficult to believe than Mary's Immaculate Conception. It is no difficulty to believe that God can unite a soul to flesh without sin. It is much harder to accept the notion that millions of souls are conceived with it.

5. It is abundantly strange that so many Protestants see Catholic Marian beliefs as idolatrous, when in fact, the Immaculate Conception is nothing if not a case where God saves absolutely independently of human effort or "works," without even the possibility of them - pure grace and nothing but grace. Protestants hold that this is what saves everyone who attains salvation. So how can Catholics be chided for applying this notion of unmerited grace to Mary? The only difference is that Catholics believe that God's applied grace obliterates sin, whereas in Protestantism, it merely "covers it up." This notion, however, is unbiblical, and was originated, by and large, by Martin Luther.

6.

He who held back the waves of that Jordan, that the ark of the Old Testament might pass untouched and honored through its bed, could hold back the wave of Adam, lest it overflow the ark of the New Testament beneath its defiling floods. For He, who could have limited Adam's sin unto himself, can ward off that sin from Mary. And what He could, that He willed to do. For why should He not have willed it?

{Bishop William Ullathorne, The Immaculate Conception, 1855}

[adiaireton8]

So is that one.

-A8