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Through Mary to Jesus
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Mariology/Mariology_032.htm ^ | unknown | Fr. John A. Hardon

Posted on 12/09/2006 11:12:03 AM PST by stfassisi

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To: Always Right; SuziQ
Says the Catholic Church.

And the Orthodox, and the Lutherans, and Martin Luther, and John Calvin, and Huldreich Zwingli, and Heinrich Bullinger, and John Wesley.

But please, go on believing Jack Chick's comic books.

41 posted on 12/09/2006 12:18:02 PM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: SuziQ
She is in a class all by herself, and was created by God to be so.

Did Mary need to be saved? Was Mary Holy without the grace of Jesus? Was Mary really sinless? Why did Mary refer to Jesus as her Savior (Luke 1:47)? If Mary was sinless, she would not have needed any grace. Whether the Catholics are correct on this or not, Catholics put way too much emphasis on Mary. Mary is played a vital role, but is not the central figure.

42 posted on 12/09/2006 12:18:10 PM PST by Always Right
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To: wagglebee
But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.

So you personally are on the same time frame as "The Lord", and not living in 24 hour limited time as the rest of us poor humans? I don't think so.

So, once again, since YOUR TIME is limited, why not pray directly to Jesus?

43 posted on 12/09/2006 12:18:23 PM PST by AmericaUnited
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To: AmericaUnited
"I shall build my Church."

It is not plural.

44 posted on 12/09/2006 12:19:38 PM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: AmericaUnited

Well, the only (C)hurch that seems to believe what Jesus said in my post #35 is the big "C" Catholic one; the one that believes the Holy Spirit guides her in non-scriptural doctrines such as belief in the Holy Trinity (one God, three persons) and "Jesus through Mary."


45 posted on 12/09/2006 12:19:58 PM PST by LisaFab
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To: Always Right
You seem to have a concern that if it's not specifically stated in the Bible, that is must be somehow wrong. If you believe that if it is in the Bible it must be so, how do you reconcile the fact that (I assume) you do NOT believe Jesus's words about Peter being the 'Rock' upon which He would build His Church on Earth, thus creating the office of the Papacy, OR the offering up of Himself at the Last Supper, calling on his Apostles to do the same, thus creating the Eucharist, in which the priest becomes the vessel through which the Holy Spirit comes to change the nature of the bread and wine into His Body and Blood, just as He asked?

If you reject those teachings, which are CLEARLY Biblical, why do you challenge those of us who are simply looking to pray in a different way? This way of praying may not be specified in the Bible, which is, after all, the story of the Prophesy, then the Birth, Death and Resurrection of Jesus, it's not about Mary. But this manner of prayer has been passed down as tradition, since the time of Jesus. We didn't just make this stuff up out of whole cloth 100 years ago.

46 posted on 12/09/2006 12:20:28 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: wagglebee
But please, go on believing Jack Chick's comic books.

By putting teaching of a Church above the Bible, I would suggest it is you who are believing in comic books. No where in the Bible does it say Mary was sinless. No where in the Bible does it suggest to pray to dead people. These are beliefs created by man.

47 posted on 12/09/2006 12:21:01 PM PST by Always Right
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To: wagglebee
John Calvin

I'm glad you bought up Calvin. He would have thrown-up reading the following:

And there are creatures that do the will of God voluntarily, because they want to. In order to teach us this most important lesson in life, that God wants us to do His will voluntarily, He did not become Incarnate without human cooperation. At the Annunciation, Mary represented the whole human race with whom God wished to join Himself, as the Church says, in marriage. God asked Mary to consent. She did. And by her consent, Jesus the Son of God became the Son of Mary.

48 posted on 12/09/2006 12:22:11 PM PST by AmericaUnited
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To: Always Right
Was Mary Holy without the grace of Jesus?

Mary was Holy because God created her that way. We believe she was sinless because God wanted that pure vessel in which His Son was to be carried, and from which He would be born. She recognized the need for Redemption; after all, she was familiar with the Prophesies that a Messiah would come, and she included herself in the family of Man, and even if she didn't really need it, she identified with all of us who do.

Jesus honored and revered His Mother, should we not emulate Him in that respect? If He thought it was important that she be honored, it must be.

49 posted on 12/09/2006 12:26:23 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: wagglebee
"I shall build my Church." It is not plural.

Correct, because to God, all those different denominations are called, 'The Church'.

50 posted on 12/09/2006 12:26:50 PM PST by AmericaUnited
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To: Always Right

Look up the terms emnity and magnify.

Was Eve created free from sin?


51 posted on 12/09/2006 12:27:55 PM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: AmericaUnited
So, you do not believe in free will? Or in the Old Testament? The point being that Mary said "yes" to God where Adam & Eve said "no." Without their "no," there would have been no need for the Incarnation, and without Mary's "yes," it would not have occurred as so beautifully and mercifully planned.
52 posted on 12/09/2006 12:28:43 PM PST by LisaFab
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To: AmericaUnited

No, there is one Church and thousands of apostate, heretical sects.


53 posted on 12/09/2006 12:29:02 PM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee

"No, there is one Church and thousands of apostate, heretical sects."

Who are you to make that judgment?


54 posted on 12/09/2006 12:30:07 PM PST by marajade (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: wagglebee

"But please, go on believing Jack Chick's comic books."

I never even heard of Jack Chick until you posted about him.


55 posted on 12/09/2006 12:32:06 PM PST by marajade (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: AmericaUnited
And could you please address my questions in posts #35 & 45?

I'm off to Church now, to pray to some statues of dead folks; one of whom is my Savior. I'll look forward to your answers.

56 posted on 12/09/2006 12:32:10 PM PST by LisaFab
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To: marajade

The Lord said Church, do you contend that the Church did not exist until the Sixteenth Century?


57 posted on 12/09/2006 12:33:02 PM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee
It is not plural.

Because all beleivers are a member of the church. There was not meant to be a man-made set of rules which decides who is a member and who isn't.

58 posted on 12/09/2006 12:33:54 PM PST by Always Right
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To: wagglebee

"The Lord said Church, do you contend that the Church did not exist until the Sixteenth Century?"

No, I believe the Church existed at the day of penecost. You?



59 posted on 12/09/2006 12:35:32 PM PST by marajade (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: LisaFab
Well, the only (C)hurch that seems to believe what Jesus said in my post #35 is the big "C" Catholic one

You have built a huge, monstrous edifice, upon a simple statement that Jesus made (upon that rock...), with just about none of that elaborate edifice being clearly specified in the scripture. That to me is extremely scary. Cardinal rule... Any huge doctrine that is built on one or two verses, that can have various meanings, is highly, highly suspect. Matter of fact, the New Testament mentions absolutely nothing at all about Peter, in his new 'Pope role'.

60 posted on 12/09/2006 12:36:26 PM PST by AmericaUnited
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