Mary not just for Catholics anymore

IOBSERVE ^ | December 2006 | Patricia Zapor

[NYer]

WASHINGTON (CNS) -- As publications from Time magazine to Christianity Today have discovered recently, Mary, the mother of Jesus, is not just for Catholics anymore.

Features on Mary are perennial favorites for editors looking for a religion-themed story before Christmas, and in the last few years many of these articles have focused on the increasing popularity of Mary among Protestants.

Marianist Father Thomas Thompson, editor of the Marian Library Newsletter at the University of Dayton in Ohio, points out that the expanding Protestant acceptance of Mary is based upon a strictly scriptural view of her, rather than on any change in Protestant theology.

Some Catholic doctrines about Mary, such as the Immaculate Conception -- the belief that she was conceived without sin -- remain controversial among Protestants, Father Thompson said. But as anti-Catholicism has waned among Protestants, the barriers to Episcopalians, Baptists and evangelicals turning to Mary have faded as well.

"We're very happy to see others taking an interest in Mary," he said in a telephone interview with Catholic News Service.

Timothy George, dean of Beeson Divinity School at Samford University, a Baptist college in Birmingham, Ala., wrote recently that "it is time for evangelicals to recover a fully biblical appreciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her role in the history of salvation, and to do so precisely as evangelicals." George's comments appeared in the December 2003 issue of Christianity Today and in a 2004 collection of essays by various theologians, "Mary: Mother of God."

"We may not be able to recite the rosary or kneel down before statues of Mary, but we need not throw her overboard," George wrote.

In the magazine, he quoted an early 20th-century Southern Baptist New Testament scholar, A.T. Robertson, who said Mary "has not had fair treatment either from Protestants or Catholics." Robertson argued that while Catholics have "deified" Mary evangelicals have coldly neglected her.

"We have been afraid to praise and esteem Mary for her full worth," said George, citing Robertson, "lest we be accused of leanings and sympathy with Catholics."

George's article went on to explain historical, scriptural and theological reasons why Protestants should embrace Mary.

"We need not go through Mary in order to get to Jesus," George concluded, "but we can join with Mary in pointing others to him."

Another recent book, "Blessed One," is a collection of 11 essays about Mary by Protestant scholars.

In their introduction, editors Beverly Roberts Gaventa and Cynthia L. Rigby, professors at Princeton Theological Seminary in New Jersey and Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Texas, respectively, said their goal for the book was to help Protestants think in new ways about Mary, "blessing her and being blessed by her."

"She is a person of faith who does not always understand but who seeks to put her trust in God," they wrote.

For Muslims, on the other hand, Mary has always been a part of the picture.

John Alden Williams, professor emeritus in the humanities of religion at the College of William and Mary in Virginia, is a Catholic historian who has studied Islamic civilization and religion. He and fellow William and Mary professor James A. Bill published "Roman Catholics and Shi'i Muslims" in 2002.

It notes that two sections of the Quran, the sacred book of Islam, are devoted to Mary, known there as Maryam. She is recognized as the purified woman chosen to be the mother of the promised Messiah. Islam considers Jesus an important prophet, but not the incarnation of God.

Williams explained in a phone interview that, like Catholics, Shiite Muslims, who are a minority compared to the vastly more numerous Sunni Muslims, believe in intercessory prayer through saints and other holy people. That includes Mary, who is highly revered as a mediatrix between humans and God, or Allah. Sufis, another Islamic sect, also believe in intercession.

In Sunni Islam, "the whole idea of intercession is disputed," Williams said, "just as it is among Calvinist Protestants."

Among the differences the leaders of the Protestant Reformation had with the Catholic Church was the growth during the Middle Ages of devotion to Mary. Reformers argued that Jesus was the only mediator between God and mankind and that "exuberant Marian devotion seemed to them to threaten the clarity of the Gospel message of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone," wrote Daniel L. Migliore, a theology professor at Princeton Theological Seminary, in his chapter in "Blessed One."

Muslims who seek Mary's intercession, on the other hand, see her in much the same way Catholics do, said Williams.

While living in the Middle East, he said he witnessed several striking examples of the reverence many Muslims have for Mary.

At the Convent of Our Lady, an Orthodox church in Sednaya, Syria, he watched devout Muslims roll out prayer rugs to join Christians in reverencing an icon of Mary that is reputed to have been painted by St. Luke the Evangelist and believed to have the power to cure illnesses.

And in the late 1960s, many Muslims were among the millions who gathered in a Coptic Orthodox church in Egypt, hoping to catch a glimpse of reported Marian apparitions, he said.

For more than a year starting in 1968, apparitions of Mary were reported over the domes of the Church of the Virgin Mary in the Zeitoun area of Cairo.

Williams went to the church once during that time and was surprised to see Muslims among the crowd, he said.

"I asked some people, 'Isn't it a little funny for you to be coming here to a Christian church?'" Williams said. They said they considered it only proper that Mary would appear at a church dedicated to her, but explained that they believed she was speaking to all Egyptians, not just Christians.

"They all saw it as a great sign of consolation after the war with Israel (in 1967) that God had not forgotten the people of Egypt," he said

[NYer]

For more than a year starting in 1968, apparitions of Mary were reported over the domes of the Church of the Virgin Mary in the Zeitoun area of Cairo.

St. Mark Cathedral - Zeitoun, Egypt

[Beth528]

I have always know Mary was a very important person..The one thing I do not do is worship her. God said in the Bible for us not to worship graven images stone statues and such and we were not to have any gods except him.......Mary is the mother of our Lord and most religions believe that..

[Dallas59]

And she is not to be prayed to. Nor are any of the disciples or men that followed Jesus to be prayed to.

[Miss Marple]

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

We do not pray TO Mary. We ask her to pray FOR us.

[kerryusama04]

Laying the groundwork for Mohammed's sainthood, I see.

[AnAmericanMother]

You may have some misguided Catholics who worship Mary . . . just as you have some misguided folks who believe the Bible tells them to handle rattlesnakes and drink poison.

But the Church does not teach and has never taught the worship of the Blessed Virgin. She is due special honor as the person who carried God for nine months and then raised him, but that most emphatically does NOT include worship, which is due to God and God alone.

[Pyro7480]

Nah. We have several images of him depicted in hell. ;-)

[NYer]

Though she enjoys the glory of heaven, the Virgin Mary is still lovingly concerned with the struggles of Christ's Body on earth. So she constantly prays for our needs with a mother's love. Mary's intercession is entirely dependent on Jesus' role as the great Mediator (I Timothy 2:5). He is the One Way to the Father (John 14:6), all prayers to the Father must go through Him. Mary's prayers are no exception; she, too, prays to the Father in Jesus' Name.

[kerryusama04]

Mary's dead, dude. She can't hear you.

[Beth528]

And also this,I will continue to believe the bible and the teaching of Jesus Christ..Although like I did say Mary was the mother of Jesus...I will not argue with anyones beliefs about religion..I do know I feel Gods presence in some churches where I don't in others so while on trips I go to the church I feel Gods presence in..

Should we give importance to Mother Mary since she was the Mother of Jesus? Is it right if we pray to her?


This is a good question, as Mary was Jesus’ mother on earth, does she have any special place in God’s plan besides raising Jesus? The answer naturally can only be found in God’s Word, the Bible. Anything else would be speculation.

Let us look at the evidence and what God’s Word has to say about Mary.

The first time she is mentioned is when an angel of the Lord appeared to her to announce the miraculous birth of Jesus: Matt 1:18 “His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.” NIV

Both chapter 1 and 2 of Matthew (and corresponding passages in the other gospels) deal with the birth announcement of Jesus, His birth, the visit of the shepherds and the wise men and the flight to Egypt. No texts however tries to put Mary above Jesus. He determination to do God’s will is exemplary, but her only and important role mentioned in these passages is to give birth and raise Jesus. What an honor!

The next time she is mentioned is at a wedding: John 2:1-5 “On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine." "Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied. "My time has not yet come." His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you." NIV

Here we see a loving conversational exchange between Mary, who was concerned that the wine had ran out and her son. She was convinced that Jesus could take care of the problem, and He sure did!

Notice that it wasn’t Mary who took care of the problem. It was Jesus! He is the only One who can take of our problems as well. Didn’t He say: Matt 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” NIV Nowhere in the Bible does Mary, the earthly mother of Jesus say anything like that, as there is only One who can give us rest, Jesus Christ!

The third mention of Mary is when Matt 12:47-50 "Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." NIV We as believers are put at the same level as Mary!

The fourth mention of Mary is when Jesus was visiting his hometown. Hardly anyone wanted to believe in Him, as they saw Him as only being a carpenter’s son and His mother only being Mary. Again, Mary is not given any special position here. Matt 13:55-57 “Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" And they took offense at him.” NIV

The fifth mention was at Jesus’ crucifixion. Although in agony, He cared for His mother and He asked His apostle John to take care of her: John 19:26-27 “When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.” NIV

The last time she is mentioned in the Bible is after Jesus’ ascension to heaven. She is mentioned to be part of those who joined constantly in prayer. However, she was no leader in that prayer group. Acts 1:14 “They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.” NIV

After this, there is complete silence on the mother of Jesus. No mention is given of her death. No mention is given that she has an important place in heaven and that we should pray in her name.

However the Bible is clear that through Jesus we have access to God. He is our mediator! He is the one who intercedes for us!

Eph 2:18 “For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.” NIV

Heb 7:25 “Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” NIV

He is our only high priest!

Heb 8:1-2 “The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.” NIV

We are encouraged to draw near to God (not Mary!) through Jesus (again not Mary), with full confidence that our prayers are heard and we are assured that we are forgiven through the blood of the Lamb. Hallelujah!

Heb 10:19-23 “Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.” NIV

Why pray to anyone else with such promises! Jesus is the answer to all of our problems. Not angels (see http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/angels/help.html ) nor Mary. He is the One who died on the cross for us, who paid our penalty, so that we could be forgiven and be saved for eternity. Why don’t you draw closer to Him and invite him into your heart.

[Beth528]

See my post #11..I was taugh to pray through Jesus to God the father..And no one else..

Mt 23:8: As to you, avoid the title 'Rabbi.' One among you is your teacher, the rest are learners. Do not call anyone on earth your father. Only one is your father, the One in heaven.On the other hand, the meaning of the scripture is that no person should be given the respect and honor due ultimately to God the Father. Matthew echoes the Old Testament teaching that obeying God is more important than maintaining or exalting family ties. The Old Testament is severe about this: The Levites are commended for executing anyone who worshiped the golden calf, whether the malefactors were the Levites' fathers, brothers, or children (Deut. 33:9; Ex. 32:27-29).

[Iscool]

Mary and her role in the history of salvation, and to do so precisely as evangelicals."

There is no role of Mary in the history of salvation...Her only role is being the vessel God used for the human birth of Jesus who has the ONLY role in salvation...

At the Convent of Our Lady, an Orthodox church in Sednaya, Syria, he watched devout Muslims roll out prayer rugs to join Christians in reverencing an icon of Mary that is reputed to have been painted by St. Luke the Evangelist and believed to have the power to cure illnesses.

Catholics and muzlims gathering together to worship Mary...Now there's a picture...Problem is, we know the muzlims are still headed straight to Hell after worshipping Mary...

You folks ought to consider putting more emphasis on the bible and getting away from that one world church that's warned against in the bible...

[adiaireton8]

Who was Saul talking to the night before he died?

-A8

[walden]

"You folks ought to consider putting more emphasis on the bible and getting away from that one world church that's warned against in the bible..."

Can you give a bible citation for that warning? I don't know to what you're referring. Thanks!

[kerryusama04]

Demons

[kerryusama04]

Oh, yeah, and look how well that worked out.

[adiaireton8]

He [Iscool] doesn't want the Church to be one, even though Jesus prayed in John 17 that His followers would be one, just as He and the Father are one. Iscool apparently wants us to see that which Jesus prayed for (perfect unity among His followers), as that which Jesus doesn't want. Iscool apparently wants the Church to be divided.

There is another being who wants to divide Christ's body, that same prince of darkness who sought to destroy Christ's body on the cross. He dreads the thought of Christ's body being unified, and does everything he can to cause it to be divided against itself.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

At the Transfiguration, was Jesus talking with two demons?

-A8

[kerryusama04]

Nope

[huldah1776]

Jesus does not enter your heart, you give up your life for Him, and the Holy Spirit enters your heart. Mary has no power in and of herself. she was however, a very humble human being, maybe second to Moses, because Moses wouldn't have asked any questions.

[Beth528]

No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit. "God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts.. This knowledge of faith is possible only in the Holy Spirit: to be in touch with Christ, we must first have been touched by the Holy Spirit. He comes to meet us and kindles faith in us. By virtue of our Baptism,the Holy Spirit in the Church communicates to us, intimately and personally, the life that originates in the Father and is offered to us in the Son.

Baptism gives us the grace of new birth in God the Father, through his Son, in the Holy Spirit. For those who bear God's Spirit are led to the Word, that is, to the Son, and the Son presents them to the Father, and the Father confers incorruptibility on them. And it is impossible to see God's Son without the Spirit, and no one can approach the Father without the Son, for the knowledge of the Father is the Son, and the knowledge of God's Son is obtained through the Holy Spirit.God says also you must be born again
had questions to ask Jesus.

As Jesus talked with Nicodemus, He said "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again...." (John 3:3-7).
The phrase "born again" literally means "born from above." Nicodemus had a real need. He needed a change of his heart--a spiritual transformation. New birth, being born again, is an act of God whereby eternal life is imparted to the person who believes (2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-4, 18). John 1:12,13 indicates that "born again" also carries the idea "to become children of God" through trust in the name of Jesus Christ.

[napscoordinator]

My wish this Christmas season would be that every person on Earth become Catholic and find the true religion. I wonder if that is possible? What a gift that would be and just think of how much fun Heaven would be with everyone there.

[LiteKeeper]

There has never been a time when Protestants rejected Mary. We just see the need to pray to her, or any other saint. It is Jesus alone to whom we direct our prayers. And, in the same way that we don't pray to the saints, or venerate them, we don't celebrate special days for Mary either. She was truly blessed above all women, but beyond that she is no different from any other woman who walked on the face of this earth...she was still in need of a Saviour, for she too was a sinner. End of story.

[stfassisi]

The site you point to is a mess of modern Christian Scripture twisting by someone who is ignorant of Christian History
The fact is ,you would NOT doubt Mary as powerful intercessor if you were a Christian living in the first 1500 plus years of Christianity.

Even the "reformers" were staunch defenders of Mary:

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."
[Ulrich Zwingli; quoted in "Corpus Reformatorum" v. 1, p. 424]

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
[Matin Luther; "Sermons on John", chapters 1-4, 1537-39]

"{Mary is the} highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ... She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough."
[Martin Luther; sermon given on Christmas, 1531]

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God? thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."
[Martin Luther; "Sermon On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God", 1527]



Here is what the early Church fathers had to say...

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).

"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed." Sub Tuum Praesidium, From Rylands Papyrus, Egypt (3rd century).

"Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected.... Nor would I hesitate to admit you to the altars of God, whose souls I would without hesitation call altars, on which Christ is daily offered for the redemption of the body. For if the virgin's body be a temple of God, what is her soul, which, the ashes, as it were, of the body being shaken off, once more uncovered by the hand of the Eternal Priest, exhales the vapor of the divine fire. Blessed virgins, who emit a fragrance through divine grace as gardens do through flowers, temples through religion, altars through the priest." Ambrose, On Virginity II:6,18 (A.D. 378).

"Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground." Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11 (A.D. 379).

"For it is said that he [Gregory the Wonderworker] heard the one who had appeared in womanly form exhorting John the Evangelist to explain to the young man the mystery of the true faith. John, in his turn, declared that he was completely willing to please the Mother of the Lord even in this matter and this was the one thing closest to his heart. And so the discussion coming to a close, and after they had made it quite clear and precise for him, the two disappeared from his sight." Gregory of Nyssa, On Gregory the WonderWorker (A.D. 380).


The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary "woman" as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman's seed will crush the serpent's skull.

Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is "parthenos") will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means "God is with us." John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the "Theotokos").

Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women." A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word "saints" (in Hebrew "qaddiysh") means "holy" ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary's Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.


Mary the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

(Some of this info is from John Salza,s site)

[P-Marlowe]

We ask her to pray FOR us.

By definition that IS a prayer. You are praying TO Mary for her to pray FOR you.

In order for her to hear all these prayers she would have to be omnipresent and omnipotent and omniscient.

Does Mary hear all these billions of prayers? Does she then repeat that prayer for you to God?

It is pretty clear that God is more than capable of hearing all of our prayers, so why would we need to use Mary as a mediator?

[wmfights]

Wow! What a great post. Thank you, that was said beautifully.

[treffner]

"He [Iscool] doesn't want the Church to be one"

I think that he just realized that some have perverted the gospel of Christ.

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[Beth528]

I believe every word of what I posted and also some of it came from Billy Graham..We can go on and on about the beliefs for man and what they believe to be the truth..The main thing is I believe in God, the son, and the holy spirit..I also know when I was born again I have never since then felt the wonder and piece of that day in my life I know God touched me that day and said go and tell the world At least in spirit he said that to me.. We are all sinners and anyone would be lying if they said they weren't.And I Just hope and pray that one day we will all see our fathers face and be with him again on earth..All the evil and sin will be gone and we can enjoy what God once made for us,a beautiful place with our father..

[Beth528]

You are very kind and I thank you!

[Miss Marple]

When you ask other people here on earth to pray for you, are you praying to them as well?

Mary is in Heaven, which is outside time. It is quite possible for her to hear all requests for prayers.

[wmfights]

By definition that IS a prayer. You are praying TO Mary for her to pray FOR you.

I think Scripture is very clear about what the LORD thinks of calling on dead people to do things for you.

Deut. 18:11-12 "or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD,..."

[pipeorganman]

She was truly blessed above all women, but beyond that she is no different from any other woman who walked on the face of this earth...she was still in need of a Saviour, for she too was a sinner. End of story.

Would you be so kind as to post the Biblical verses detailing Mary's sins? Thank you.

[treffner]

"Would you be so kind as to post the Biblical verses detailing Mary's sins? Thank you."

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

[TheStickman]

I always ask Mary, Ever Virgin to pray for me and my family.

[treffner]

"Would you be so kind as to post the Biblical verses detailing Mary's sins? Thank you."

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

[TheStickman]

You evidence to support your claim is?

[TheStickman]

Mary, the Mother of God, our Lord, Jesus Christ is not dead. She is in Heaven with her Son.

[kerryusama04]

Can you be a little more specific?

[P-Marlowe]

When you ask other people here on earth to pray for you, are you praying to them as well?

Indeed, in a sense you are. You are requesting their intervention. But here is the difference:

Do you get on your knees before your frends and bow your head and fold your hands before them when you ask other people to pray for you?

Do you have a set of special beads to count the number of times you ask your friend to pray for you?

Do you show the same respect to those people that you show to Mary when you ask her to pray for you?

Do you bow and genuflect in front of your friends or in front of pictures of your friends when you go into their house to speak to them?

Do you have statutes of your friends that you keep on your dashboard so that you can ask them to pray for you when you see a tree coming at you at 60 miles an hour?

[wmfights]

Mary, the Mother of God, our Lord, Jesus Christ is not dead. She is in Heaven with her Son.

Oh, that's right, I forgot you believe she ascended into heaven without ever dying so praying to her would be praying to a living human being. There is no Scriptural reference for this mythology. If I'm wrong please post the Scriptural references that detail all these supernatural powers Mary is supposed to have.

[wmfights]

Do you get on your knees before your frends and bow your head and fold your hands before them when you ask other people to pray for you?

I had never thought about this! As a Baptist we do not get down on our knees because it is a position of submission and respect we reserve strictly for the LORD.

[pipeorganman]

But I asked for the Biblical details of Mary's personal sins. You should be able to point these out, as the Bible shows us, for instance David's sin of having Uriah killed and Peter's threefold denial of Jesus.

[stfassisi]

Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 ("All have sinned")

Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "pantes."

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all ("pantes") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people "good."

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, "No one is good but God alone." But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says "The good man out of his good treasure..." So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

from Scripturecatholic.com

[Iscool]

Can you give a bible citation for that warning? I don't know to what you're referring. Thanks!

That's my point...Get into the bible...And believe it...

[GCC Catholic]

she ascended into heaven without ever dying

That was never defined one way or the other. In the East, the Assumption is called the Dormition, translated as falling asleep, but when the Dogma of the Assumption was declared, nothing was said as to whether or not Mary died, only that she was taken to Heaven in both body and soul.

Regardless, I've not been to a funeral (Protestant as well as Catholic) where I can recall someone saying that their loved one has "fallen asleep" to not awake again until the Second Coming. Instead, everyone says that their loved ones are "with God," which says to me that they believe their loved ones to be spiritually alive and enjoying their eternal reward. If we can say that any of these departed saints of God are alive with Him, why should we not say that Mary is alive and with her Son?

Certainly, those who have died and are now with God (the canonized capital "S" Saints as well as all the faithful departed lowercase "s" saints) are more alive than we are, because they no longer see through a glass darkly, but rather see God face to face.

[stfassisi]

""Mary, the Mother of God, our Lord, Jesus Christ is not dead. She is in Heaven with her Son.""

EXACTLY!


....And some people seem to forget that it was through Mary's intercession that Christ worked His first miracle at Cana. As you recall, Jesus told His Mother that His time for working miracles had not yet come. But no matter, His Mother asked Him, and she was so sure He would grant her request, that she simply told the servants to, “Do whatever He tells you to.” They obeyed when Jesus told them to fill the huge jars with water. And as the poet tells us, the water recognized its Maker and blushed. It was because the Mother of the Maker of heaven and earth had asked her Son to work the miracle. She interceded and He exercised His omnipotence.

[Miss Marple]

Ahem. We ask for the intercession of the Saints, also, all of whom died. Do you not believe that there are souls in heaven?

[LiteKeeper]

A first year theology student should be able to tell you that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

Romans 3:10 "There is none righteous, no not one."

[Campion]

There is no role of Mary in the history of salvation...Her only role is being the vessel God used for the human birth of Jesus who has the ONLY role in salvation...

You'd be more persuasive if you didn't start by contradicting yourself.