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Australian/U.S. creationism schism at Answers in Genesis
http://lippard.blogspot.com/2006/11/more-from-behind-scenes-of.html ^
Posted on 11/26/2006 6:37:23 AM PST by truthfinder9
More information
has just come out about the split between the Kentucky-based Answers in Genesis and the Australia-based Creation Ministries International. (UPDATED for clarification: CMI is composed of organizations from Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and Canada which were all formerly united with the Kentucky group under the Answers in Genesis name. The Australian group was the Creation Science Foundation prior to the association of the groups under the Answers in Genesis name.) CMI has published a number of documents on its web site about the split. These documents, which I'll describe below, make the case that the U.S. group has acted in bad faith to appropriate for itself many of the resources of the Australian group, as well as to put it into an untenable position of being potentially liable for certain actions of the U.S. group without getting any financial benefits. These documents,
on a website headed with tomorrow's date (today in Australia, where it's currently afternoon), were pointed out in comments on my blog post by "JaneD" (presumably the D is for "Doe"), who appears to have set up a new blogger account to bring the information to public attention.
This split, which I
pointed out on my blog back in March 2006, along with some financial data about the U.S. group and some speculation about the causes, occurred in late 2005. In that post, I noted that certain information critical of other creationists (and
convicted tax evader Kent Hovind in particular) had been
removed from the U.S. group's site. A brochure from the CMI suggested that a difference of approach, including ethical considerations, was the primary reason for the split:
The AiG website was developed in the US and hosted there. It was largely dependent for its intellectual content on the scientists and thinkers in the parent corporation, in particular such as Dr Don Batten, Dr Jonathan Sarfati, and Dr Carl Wieland. These and other writers were heavily contributing to the site until late 2005/early 2006, when the US ministry withdrew themselves from the international ministry group (with the exception of the UK) with an expressed desire to operate autonomously, without e.g. website content being subject to an international representative system of checks/balances/peer review involving all the other offices bearing the same 'brand name'.
At that time, in the midst of discussions about this and other differences in operating philosophy (not involving the statement of faith or similar), the Australian office was formally invited to form its own website. This required a new name to avoid confusion.
The four national ministries (Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa) which were committed to continuing their focus and operational ^Qteam^R philosophy, and to continuing to forge and strengthen a representative international ministry alliance structure (based on Proverbs 11:14), then rebranded as Creation Ministries International (CMI).
The Australian group has long had a policy of publishing material critical of bad creationist work, and its journals have occasionally published some excellent debunkings of standard creationist arguments, such as the shrinking sun and moon dust arguments for a young earth. This apparently was considered by the U.S. group to be bad for business. (UPDATE: This was indeed a major issue in the dispute which led to the split. The Australian organization wanted more international control over the content of material to be distributed internationally, in the form of an international committee with votes weighted based on the size and seniority of the organization. The U.S. organization rejected this proposal, reserving most of the power to itself.)
Roger Stanyard
has proposed that the Australian methodology was not actually peer review, but a form of shakedown against creationist authors who didn't toe the group's party line. He attributes the breakdown to the handling of Dennis Petersen's book,
Unlocking the Mysteries, which was making money for Answers in Genesis but was criticized by the Australians. While I agree that the Australians' peer review was less-than-stellar (in what it let pass through uncritically), my interactions with the leadership of that group lead me to believe that they are honest and ethical in their behavior (though wrong in their beliefs). (UPDATE: The removal of material criticizing the Petersen book from the Answers in Genesis website occurred after the split. Stanyard appears to
base his account on John Mackay, a source of
highly dubious quality.)
The new information on CMI's website consists of the following:
1. A
letter dated November 15, 2006 (PDF), from CMI to Answers in Genesis setting forth their complaint about a November 1, 2006 letter from Answers in Genesis to the general public, which CMI considers defamatory.
2. An
email of November 21, 2006, alerting a number of people to the previous item, which had so far been ignored.
3. A
summary of an October 2005 memorandum of agreement (MOA) between the Australian and U.S. groups setting forth the conditions of their separation, explaining how it disadvantages the Australian group and why the Australian group's management attempted to reject and renegotiate it.
4. A
section of the "Deed of Copyright License" (PDF) signed by the directors of both groups, with comments pointing out its unreasonable terms.
5. A promise of a future PDF document setting forth a chronology of the relevant events.
As near as I can tell, the documents on the website suggest that the directors of the Australian group were induced to fly to the United States and sign the memorandum of agreement setting forth the terms of the separation of the groups without the knowledge of the management of the Australian group (e.g., Carl Wieland and the Australian staff). The MOA, drafted by the U.S. group's attorneys, set terms for the separation that were entirely favorable to the U.S. group. The Australian group's directors who signed the document then resigned en masse, under the condition that they be given indemnity for their actions--the letter suggests that they were in breach of their fiduciary duties to the Australian group for signing the agreements. (UPDATE: These Australian directors--John Thallon, Greg Peacock, Jim Kitson, and David Denner--asked for indemnity for their actions in return for their resignations after consulting with an attorney. Thallon then moved to Kentucky and is on the board of the U.S. group.)
The description of the MOA states that it gives perpetual license for all articles published by the Australian group's magazine and journal to the U.S. group, including the right to modify the articles and change the names of the authors, including a false statement that the authors had given permission for this. If anyone sues the U.S. group for copyright infringement, the Australian group agrees to pay all costs. All fees and costs for items are set unilaterally by the U.S. group, which the U.S. group has used to increase fees charged to the Australian group for materials (such as DVDs) by up to three times. The domain name answersingenesis.com, an asset of the Australian group, was transferred to the U.S. group, apparently without compensation.
Upon learning of these onerous terms, the Australian management attempted to reject the MOA and requested renegotiation of terms, to no avail; the U.S. group has refused to allow the participation of Carl Wieland in any negotiation.
In short, it looks like this was a struggle over money and control, with the Australian group out-maneuvered by the U.S. group. If the information in these documents is accurate--and I am inclined to believe that it is--it shows that Ken Ham's Answers in Genesis is as sleazy in its business dealings as it is in its misrepresentations of science.
I'll be digging further into this story... watch this blog for updates.
UPDATE (November 21, 2006): I've been informed by Carl Wieland that the page of documents on the website was not supposed to have been made available through the website, but only as individual items for recipients of the email referenced above as item 2 (and given below). The main page and several of the other items are no longer at the locations I had linked to, but I've updated the links based on the below email. Wieland has declined to comment on the actions or motivation of AiG, and expressed a desire to avoid anything that would be used "to smear all creation ministry in general."
The following is the text of that email:
Clarification re innuendo about CMI in email/letter from AiG-USA.
Sent 21 November 2006
From: the Board of Creation Ministries International (CMI)-publishers of Creation magazine (still available in the USA) and the Journal of Creation (formerly TJ) in Brisbane, Australia.
Dear colleague in creation outreach
We write this with considerable sadness. You are likely aware that there are some tensions between the ministries of CMI and AiG that go back some two years or so. We had hoped to be able to settle these peacefully, despite our ministry having suffered significant tangible losses at AiG's hands. We have repeatedly but unsuccessfully tried to get AiG to meet openly with all of us, or failing that, to have both our ministries submit to binding Christian arbitration to see things done justly.
We believe we have acted with considerable restraint in our public comments thus far, despite seriously provocative actions. These include substantial commercial ruthlessness against our ministry as part of what increasingly has the hallmarks of some sort of vendetta. Nevertheless, we have kept the details very quiet for a very long time, not wishing to cause harm or escalation, and hoping for 'peace with honour'.
A most unfortunate and unfair email
Unfortunately, a number of people have contacted us just now, saying they have received a brief email from AiG-USA's chairman (which we have seen) that casts serious slurs against our ministry. In effect, it engages in widespread public slander.
The email alleges that we have engaged in 'unbiblical' and 'factious' behaviour (a word applied in the NT to those who introduce doctrines contrary to the Gospel, and translated as 'heretic' in the KJV). This is an immensely serious and damaging allegation against an evangelical ministry and one that has not been substantiated, and is totally without foundation; our ministry's doctrine has not changed one iota, either in word or in practice.
The email also hints darkly at a 'spiritual problem' as a justification for their breaking off discussions with us. It also refers to a letter the AiG-Board sent us on November 1 to that effect, saying that that letter is available to enquirers upon request. That letter was essentially an expansion of their shorter email; it repeatedly affirmed their own righteousness, and that they were breaking off negotiations until we resolved our 'spiritual problems'. These 'problems' are not specified, which darkens the innuendo ('What? Who?').
Dismayed by this turn of events, we prepared a detailed response that was emailed to each of the Directors on AiG-USA's Board, on 15 November 2006. It outlined and clarified the issues in detail. In it we also pleaded for AiG to urgently withdraw from this action, giving them three days to respond-i.e. to contact us, to make some move to draw back from this abyss, to avoid us making our response public. We have received no response or acknowledgement from AiG, even to this date, some six days later.
Worldwide libel distribution
The same AiG email defaming our ministry has also been sent out by an Australian creationist running his own ministry, who had split with Ken Ham in 1986 (this man had been excommunicated by an Australian church, a still unresolved issue-see www.CreationOnTheWeb.com/mackay for Ken Ham's own words about the seriousness of these actions against our ministry and an individual at that time). So this defamation has been sent to a substantial worldwide email mailing list, which would include overlap with many of our own supporters. This AiG email was clearly sent to that 'distribution source' by AiG; the covering comments state that 'Ken Ham advises', and refer to AiG's permission for the recipient to spread it still further.
(The aim appears to be to encourage as many people as possible to lose confidence in our ministry, and of course AiG will have a commercial 'bonus' in that the more that are encouraged to 'enquire', the more email addresses they will have, making it easier to further undermine CMI ministry in this country.)
We deeply regret that AiG/Ken Ham have seen fit to engage in this most serious escalation. Even in the face of this defamation, our overwhelming preference would have been to have had AiG respond to our urgent letter, to continue talks in openness and light as the Scriptures enjoin us to do rather than for us to have to publically stand against the libel.
In the absence of any evidence of remorse or willingness to undo this most recent and grave public attempt to damage us, we solemnly, before the Lord, believe we now have no choice but to protect the public reputation of the ministry organisation that has been entrusted to us, in as dignified and God-honoring a way as we can.
So we have chosen in the first instance to provide, within this email, a website link (below) to the full text of our formal 15 November response to AiG, which should substantially clarify CMI's position.
Of course, we do not know who all the many folk to whom AiG's defamatory comments have been emailed are, or how many times it has multiplied on the internet. So we are sending this email you are reading to the following:
1) To any who actually enquire of us.
2) To our corporation's members (an outer layer of protection which holds the directors accountable), our staff and our volunteer workers/speakers, local reps, etc.
3) To the management of our four national affiliates (CMI offices in Canada, NZ, US and South Africa, as well as affiliates in the UK) for providing to their staff, so that they will be able to answer these allegations as they inevitably spread. Sadly, some mud always sticks, especially when it comes from a 'big name'.
4) To those we know of who are involved in creation outreach of any sort, since we are aware that at least some of these have been targeted with this AiG email and previous ones.
5) To any (including those within AiG itself) that we have reason to believe have been contacted by AiG with similar intent and have likely received similarly misleading statements and views.
The link
Our letter of response to AiG is reproduced at this link on our site, www.CreationOnTheWeb.com/dispute
If you did not receive the AiG email, we ask for your compassionate understanding of the dilemma we were facing; we know from those who have already contacted us that it went out widely to creationists, but do not know exactly who did and didn't receive it.
This sorry development will bring shame on the Name of our Lord and Saviour, and give cause for the enemies of God to gloat. Would you please consider committing these matters, which also have the potential do damage to creation ministry in general (even more than has already occurred), to prayer.
Yours very sincerely in Christ,
The Board of Creation Ministries International Ltd. (Australia)
Mr. Kerry Boettcher (Chairman)
Mrs. Carolyn McPherson (Vice-Chairman)
Dr. Carl Wieland, M.B., B.S. (Managing Director)
Dr. Dave Christie, B.Com, M.Admin, Ph.D., FAICD, FIMC (Director)
Mr. Fang, Chang Sha B.Sc (hons), M.Sc. (Director)
Rev. Dr. Don Hardgrave, B.D, M.A., D.B.S., Dip. Theol, Dip. R.E. (Director)
UPDATE (November 21, 2006): I have inserted a number of minor clarifications and updates throughout the above text.
Creation Ministries International
has a USA branch now, in Atlanta, Georgia, to ensure distribution of its materials in the United States. This means that they will be competing for dollars with Answers in Genesis of Kentucky.
UPDATE: The link above regarding defamatory material from John Mackay and background information about Mackay was a broken link that has now been corrected, and I've devoted
a separate post to this issue. The information there shows why Mackay left the Creation Science Foundation in 1987, and raises concern about Mackay's image being rehabilitated without having retracted the charges that he brought in the past. Mackay has now been attacking Creation Ministries International and siding with Ham and Answers in Genesis in the dispute--Answers in Genesis must be questioning whether having Mackay as a friend is a benefit.
TOPICS: Apologetics; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Religion & Science
KEYWORDS: ahousedivided; aig; cmi; corruption; creationists; kenham
To: truthfinder9
Good grief , its no wonder the avarage person wants
no part of religious organizations.
2
posted on
11/26/2006 6:43:52 AM PST
by
claptrap
(We've found a Witch can we burn her?)
To: truthfinder9
Very sad but it happens. Everyone should simply support both groups.
3
posted on
11/26/2006 8:08:04 AM PST
by
The Ghost of FReepers Past
(Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
To: truthfinder9
Fundamentalist Protestants disagreeing and splitting angrily into separate factions!
That NEVER happens.
Signed,
A Catholic married to a Methodist who has harsh things to say about THOSE denominations too!
Christians Unite!
4
posted on
11/26/2006 12:10:24 PM PST
by
NucSubs
(Islam delenda est.)
To: truthfinder9
My elementary school teachers used to tell the class that once you tell a lie, you have to keep making up more lies to cover the first lie and eventually everyone knows you're a liar and doesn't believe anything you say. AIG is so far gone on layer after layer of preposterous lies that splitting into two different groups won't help them now. The only result from this is that now the fools who support that group will be confused about which lie to believe. HA! HA!
5
posted on
11/26/2006 1:40:39 PM PST
by
shuckmaster
(An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
To: truthfinder9
Please pray for peace and reconciliation. Creation ministry is too important to be damaged by this sort of thing.
6
posted on
11/26/2006 1:48:06 PM PST
by
LiteKeeper
(Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
To: truthfinder9
7
posted on
11/27/2006 8:34:23 AM PST
by
Hebrews 11:6
(Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
To: DaveLoneRanger
You need to read this. I know you're an AiG supporter, but I also know, by your excellent reporting on Hovind's trial, that you're willing to look critically at questionable behavior, even where it involves young-earth creationists.
8
posted on
11/27/2006 8:38:22 AM PST
by
Hebrews 11:6
(Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
To: truthfinder9; gobucks; mikeus_maximus; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; LiteKeeper; ...
This gets complicated, and I'm not sure I've sorted through all the details yet. There seems to be no concrete way of determining who is right and who is wrong, although I'm curious as to everyone's reaction, if you can stick through the letters, responses, responses to responses, and replies to the responses responding to the responses.
I've gone to the
Guidestar profile page for AiG (free registration required) but there's not a whole lot there. I wonder, the organization used to be subject to review from the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. But their latest statistics for AiG are from June 2005. I wonder if they have removed themselves, or if the data is late, or if CMI (not listed) was part of that? Where did the ECFA go in all the mess? Is AiG still accountable? I've sent an inquiry to the website to find out. I'd write AiG, but I'm sure all the associates that man the Answers Center have been told to keep mum, or been given a pre-conceived reply.
Sad news when organizations do this to themselves. Sometimes it's the right (but painful) thing to do, and sometimes it's not, and if it's hard to determine when you're IN the situation, it's that much harder when you're outside of it.
But the truth should never be hidden, as unpleasant as it may seem.
Thanks to
Hebrews 11:6 for pinging me on this.
Reactions, anyone?
9
posted on
11/27/2006 8:40:37 PM PST
by
DaveLoneRanger
("I am here to fight evil and exchange good-natured barbs." - The Tick)
To: DaveLoneRanger
"Reactions, anyone?" I always liked the AiG, "Defending Scripture from the very first verse" statement.
Sarfati does an excellent job in his book 'Refuting Compromise'.
The Technical Journal was good. I wondered what was going on when that stopped.
Now, if I could just get them to accept Setterfield and Bouw, they'd be a great bunch of guys. ;-)
To: claptrap
Good grief , its no wonder the avarage person wants no part of religious organizations. Nope...
The AVERAGE person DOES belong to a 'religious organization'.
11
posted on
11/28/2006 6:11:58 AM PST
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
To: DaveLoneRanger; Aetius; Alamo-Girl; AndrewC; Asphalt; Aussie Dasher; Baraonda; BereanBrain; ...
"Reactions, anyone?" This appears to be the result of "Nicolaitanism" finding it's way into creation research organisations. The rebukes that Christ directed toward the nicolaitan churches would seem to also be appropriate here. Each org should be autonomous if the truth is ever to prevail; no international body could possibly have a monopoly on the truth, and truth cannot be directed through a humanist filter.
I.E. the split is for the better.
12
posted on
11/28/2006 8:17:33 AM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
To: NucSubs; truthfinder9
"
Christians Unite!" The body of Christ has always been united, under The Lord, not under some nicolaitan 'bishops.'
13
posted on
11/28/2006 8:21:42 AM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
To: DaveLoneRanger
>>Reactions, anyone?<<
Human beings, once again demonstrating why Jesus had to die on the cross.
At least when I demonstrate it, it doesn't hit the press...
14
posted on
11/28/2006 8:24:17 AM PST
by
RobRoy
To: DaveLoneRanger
There seems to be no concrete way of determining who is right and who is wrong Pretty much sums up the whole of "creation science."
15
posted on
11/28/2006 8:26:49 AM PST
by
atlaw
To: GourmetDan; DaveLoneRanger; .30Carbine; LiteKeeper; truthfinder9; editor-surveyor
"The Technical Journal was good. I wondered what was going on when that stopped."
The technical journal is a very good resource. From what I have seen, in my humble opinion the magazines put out by Creation Ministries International are superior in quality to the resources the newly formed AIG US group puts out. The changing of the magazine subscriptions by the US AIG group without notification on how to get the other was sadly an example of imperfect Christians acting within their own fleshly pride instead of the Spirit of God. The truth of God's creation speaks loudly and articulately in spite of imperfect people and imperfect para-church organizations.
Ministries involved in teaching the truth about creation are obviously under attack, at many levels and at many sources....
they need prayer and our support. The root of the attacks can often be attributed fleshly pride. Whether it is man shaking his fist at God saying I don't need my Creator and arguing passionately than his own Creator doesn't exist, or the fleshly pride of imperfect people speaking the truth about creation. The battle often confronts our own fleshly pride but it is also "against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms".
FYI. You can still get the technical journal...
Why aren't I receiving Creation Magazine or Journal of creation any more?Why aren't I receiving Creation Magazine or Journal of creation any more?
To: editor-surveyor
Ah...so you missed the point entirely then didntja ya...
17
posted on
11/28/2006 8:37:14 AM PST
by
NucSubs
(Islam delenda est.)
To: truthfinder9
I've received "Creation" magazine for several years now, and have received the first two issues of AiG's new "Answers" magazine. I think that I'm going to switch to "Journal of Creation" from CMI though, now that my "Answers" subscription is to expire. I'm looking for good scientific articles that discusses the evidence, and not so much a "worldview" shaping magazine.
I don't try to follow what happened in the split, and I pray for both orgs since I believe that they are all trying to serve the Lord in their own way, and all believe that they are doing what they need to do. I do pray that neither group tries to harm the testimony of the other for their own sakes.
18
posted on
11/28/2006 8:39:55 AM PST
by
Sopater
(Creatio Ex Nihilo)
To: NucSubs
"
Ah...so you missed the point entirely..." Then illuminate us. What do you think the point should be?
19
posted on
11/28/2006 8:42:58 AM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
To: LiteKeeper
"
Please pray for peace and reconciliation." The Lord told us not to seek peace, (Mat 24) for there must not be peace, but division, and promised (in Mat 10:34) to bring not peace, but division.
"Creation ministry is too important to be damaged by this sort of thing."
It won't be; it will be enhanced by allowing the uncontrolled flow of His truth. Large organizations stiffle truth.
20
posted on
11/28/2006 8:49:28 AM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
To: editor-surveyor
Christians unite.
Pretty easy concept to understand. Two words.
Christians...followers of Christ...
Unite...stop squabbling among ourselves about comparatively pointless, niggling issues when we have existential enemies on all sides.
21
posted on
11/28/2006 8:51:17 AM PST
by
NucSubs
(Islam delenda est.)
To: DaveLoneRanger
My suggestion is that unless there is a fundamental error, we should not let their conflict be our conflict. We should wholeheartedly support both. Just ignore the breakup except to support two organizations instead of one.
22
posted on
11/28/2006 8:52:52 AM PST
by
The Ghost of FReepers Past
(Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
To: NucSubs
Then I didn't miss the point at all, did I?
23
posted on
11/28/2006 8:55:54 AM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
To: editor-surveyor
Really? The body of Christ has always been united, under The Lord, not under some nicolaitan 'bishops.' Can you elaborate on what you meant by that then? Maybe I am the one missing the point.
24
posted on
11/28/2006 9:00:22 AM PST
by
NucSubs
(Islam delenda est.)
To: NucSubs
The point is that Christ is the glue that unites us through the Holy Spirit.
Human organizations that we in our arrogance call 'churches' are not "The Church."
25
posted on
11/28/2006 9:05:23 AM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
To: editor-surveyor
Then as a Christian you would be comfortable worshiping in a Church with members of any Christian denomination led by any leader?
26
posted on
11/28/2006 9:42:19 AM PST
by
NucSubs
(Islam delenda est.)
To: NucSubs; editor-surveyor; .30Carbine; DaveLoneRanger
To: claptrap
"Good grief , its no wonder the avarage person wants no part of religious organizations."- ClapTrap "Nope...The AVERAGE person DOES belong to a 'religious organization'."-ElsieDitto what Elsie said. The vast majority of people understand that religious organizations consist of imperfect people imperfectly worshipping a perfect God, and as such, are not always a reflection of God Himself.
But people looking for excuses not to participate in organized religion can easily point to the disputes instead of the positive work that is done as an excuse.
And then there is those people who join "non-denominational" churches, believing that by doing so, they are avoiding "organized religion". Never mind that the non-denominational churches have become a denomination in their own right.
28
posted on
11/28/2006 2:10:39 PM PST
by
DannyTN
To: NucSubs
Then as a Christian you would be comfortable worshiping in a Church with members of any Christian denomination led by any leader?"I would be comfortable worshiping in most Christian denominations led by most of their leaders. In fact, while a life-long Southern Baptist, I have been to Catholic mass, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal and non-denominational services. I'm most comfortable in the Southern Baptist church because their teachings best match my understanding of scripture and I think their democratic church governance, although messy as all democracies are, is best.
But that said, there are preachers in all denominations that stray from the truth, including Baptist. The Southern Baptist convention occasionally has to disassociate itself from churches that have strayed to far.
29
posted on
11/28/2006 2:21:07 PM PST
by
DannyTN
To: editor-surveyor
The Lord told us not to seek peace, (Mat 24) for there must not be peace, but division, and promised (in Mat 10:34) to bring not peace, but division. I have to disagree with you. There should be peace between ministries...peace within the Body of Christ.
There may be division between Christian and non-Christian, but never between Christians.
30
posted on
11/28/2006 2:55:07 PM PST
by
LiteKeeper
(Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
To: LiteKeeper
There already is peace within the body of Christ.
The contentious situations occur when a pretender rises up to speak for the body, at which point the believers "judge righteous judgement," and call for "rightly dividing the word of truth."
31
posted on
11/28/2006 3:29:19 PM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
To: editor-surveyor
who is the "pretender" in your thinking?
32
posted on
11/28/2006 3:30:45 PM PST
by
LiteKeeper
(Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
To: LiteKeeper
There are many, but in this case, Warren. He is clearly a judas goat.
33
posted on
11/28/2006 3:45:29 PM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
To: editor-surveyor
Warren...don't know who he is...
34
posted on
11/28/2006 8:37:55 PM PST
by
LiteKeeper
(Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
To: LiteKeeper
He is the current "super pastor" that seeks to lead believers away from the word into the "purpose driven life."
He's been in the news in the past week or so for declaring that Syria is not persecuting Christians, during a staged propaganda photo-op with the King of Syria.
35
posted on
11/28/2006 8:44:25 PM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
To: editor-surveyor
Ah, Rick Warren...I agree, he is not good for the Church. But I am puzzled how he got into a discussion of AIG and CMI?
36
posted on
11/28/2006 9:10:11 PM PST
by
LiteKeeper
(Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
To: FreedomProtector
Very glad for your post and the ping to it, FreedomProtector! Thank you! Bump!
To: LiteKeeper
"
But I am puzzled how he got into a discussion of AIG and CMI?" You're right, that is sort of an apples and oranges junction. I was only giving what I thought was the best current example of a devisive pretender.
As for AIG and CMI, I believe that both are genuine, but some individuals may be allowing personal battles to creep into their ministery. In any case, two orgs are always better than one in providing checks and balances. May they both continue to go foreward.
38
posted on
11/29/2006 7:31:56 AM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
To: editor-surveyor
Agreed
Warren is a "piece of work"
I have friends at both AIG and CMI...and respect them all very highly. The kewl thing now is that there are twice as many daily articles...and two sources. I visit those sites everyday...and will continue to do so.
39
posted on
11/29/2006 7:40:23 AM PST
by
LiteKeeper
(Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
To: FreedomProtector; GourmetDan; DaveLoneRanger; .30Carbine; editor-surveyor
From what I have seen, in my humble opinion the magazines put out by Creation Ministries International are superior in quality to the resources the newly formed AIG US group puts out. Which was one of the points of contention. AIG has always wanted to be free of review by their peers (both creationists and theologists). Whenever a group isolates itself with the "we know we are right and don't need your opinion" attitude, a red flag should go up. AIG doesn't want to be held accountable by anyone. Christians shouldn't support a group like that.
To: truthfinder9; gobucks; mikeus_maximus; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; LiteKeeper; ...
AIG doesn't want to be held accountable by anyone.
That's not quite true. I heard back from the Evangelical Council on Financial Accountability. Answers in Genesis is still a member in good standing.
41
posted on
11/30/2006 1:28:45 PM PST
by
DaveLoneRanger
("I am here to fight evil and exchange good-natured barbs." - The Tick)
To: DaveLoneRanger
Good news - thanks for the update!
42
posted on
11/30/2006 1:47:29 PM PST
by
LiteKeeper
(Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
To: DaveLoneRanger
I wasn't taking about their money. I'm talking about them ignoring peer review from other creationists and theologians, which seems to be one of the reasons for the split.
To: truthfinder9
I've heard secondhand that there's more to the story. Stay tuned.
44
posted on
12/01/2006 11:00:33 PM PST
by
DaveLoneRanger
("I am here to fight evil and exchange good-natured barbs." - The Tick)
To: truthfinder9
It's not just peer-review, it's also censorship. Journal of Creation often rejects very good science that doesn't line up with their own views. For example, there was an article that was rejected by the Journal of Creation which was accepted by a secular mainstream geology journal (he only had to change one word to in the article to get it to pass). The reason that Journal of Creation didn't publish it was because it supported the Walt Brown model.
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